Incoming President favours a tiered championship structure

[thewobbler]

Put all 32 counties into 8 groups of 4.
Top 2 in each go forward into 4 groups of 4 in the senior championship.
Bottom 2 in each group who then go into a intermediate championship where their are 4 groups of 4.
Teams play each other once; Home, away & neutral venue in each group game.
All counties guaranteed 6 group games with 3 at 1st stage then another 3 at 2nd stage.
Winners of intermediate championship get a play off to qualify for the 1/4 final with the worst performing 2nd team in Senior championship group.

Put all 32 counties into 8 groups of 4.
If you don't seed this then the knockout stages become a joke. If you do seed it then the group stages become a joke.

Top 2 in each go forward into 4 groups of 4 in the senior championship.
If there's one thing we can learn from the Champions League, it's that a second group stage is a stay of execution, and does nothing but heighten boredom.

Bottom 2 in each group who then go into a intermediate championship where their are 4 groups of 4.
Oh great, our clubs will be delighted that their county-standard players are now missing for a further 3 weeks, to play in a competition they've no interest in winning. Our county board treasurer is delighted too... another month of £15k a week costs to run a senior county team, except now, what's left of our panel is competing in a competition they don't want to win.

All counties guaranteed 6 group games with 3 at 1st stage then another 3 at 2nd stage.
There's nothing quite like a series of mismatches and dead rubbers with half-interested players, to get excited about.

Winners of intermediate championship get a play off to qualify for the 1/4 final with the worst performing 2nd team in Senior championship group.
Woopee, a county that previously shown this season that they're not good enough to win an AI, gets a bonus opportunity to prove it all again.

[thewobbler]

It's obvious from this thread alone that we're not quite agreed/clear on what the problem that a tiered championship (or the super 8s for that matter) is trying to solve. Until we know what the problem is, it's impossible to assess the merits of any proposed solution.

The problem that people are trying to solve is to make the county game more equal. But to be honest they're clean mad. 32 counties of disparate populations and football cultures are never going to find an even keel, and trying to force an "equal status" on Fermanagh because that's what Sligo want, really isn't fair either.


The problem that people should be trying to solve is the length of the county season. Asking players to commit for 7 months for 9 games is the real issue. Continually trying to prop up the lower echelons of county ball, when those same players could be enjoying club football, is the real issue.

Where do you get the seven months and nine games from? A team that plays nine games (seven league and two championship games) will play two months of league football and (I think) will have played their two championship games in a month.

R1 of the qualifiers is 9th June. The latest any county team would have been back in training is first week of January. So apologies, 6 months and 9 games.

Ah right, I thought you meant game time only. But if you're starting from when they begin training, you should include the January tournaments and the club games they'll be playing in April, no?

Probably should. Though these are more friendlies than competitive matches.

[seafoid]

You only have to look at the current tiered hurling championship .
That's has been what I would call a complete success.
Look at the way that the way the top 8 counties have come closer to the pack.
Great to see traditional hurling counties like Antrim and Offally back competing for the Liam McCarthy.
Not like Antrim were competing for a secondary competition that was over by the end of June on YouTube  before the top 8 teams really started playing.

Seriously be very careful what you wish for.
Tiering will not do anything for the teams below the top 8 but increase the gap.
Look at the diaster tieirng has been for hurling and how it has widened the gap.
Look at the way the gaa has treated the Christy Ring and the Rachard Cup and tell.me again how they will
promote an intermediate tier. Not a chance. A few years lip service and then it will be buried.

If the gaa wants to really close the gap then pool the sponsorship money and disburse it with the
teams in division 4 getting more than the division 1 teams on a sliding scale.

WTF!! so we untier the hurling and look forward to Kilkenny V Fermanagh... 

We were told at the time that tiering hurling would help the middle tier counties.
Has it ?
It has done the complete opposite.

untiering it would lead to the shambles the football is.

Football is far healthier than hurling. Only a half dozen or so counties even care about hurling at this stage.

There are 8 serious hurling counties capable of competing  -Cork, Tipp, KK, Galway, Clare, Deise, Limerick, Wexford
There are less than 8 serious football counties capable of competing  at the moment - Down, Armagh, Derry, Meath, Offaly and Kildare are all in the dumps
Football is a mess.

[magpie seanie]

Here goes. Football only for now. I've listed the problems as I think many people see them. Then the proposed solution. The Pros counteract the problems as I see them. Then I've listed the Cons which finally I respond to.

Problems:
1. Intercounty season is too long and has a detrimental impact on clubs and club players who make up the vast majority of players in the GAA.
2. No realistic hope of 90% of entrants in the All-Ireland football championship winning the competition.
3. Provincial championships unequal (easier path to AIQF's for Connacht/Munster counties) and again offer most counties little chance of winning something.*
4. Weaker teams can get drawn against strong teams in provincial or qualifier games which result in mismatches which are no good for either party.
5. Very few if any meaningful matches in football championship from May to August. (Note: meaningful - means competitive between teams of even or close to even ability and with the result having an importance).

Proposed solution: Tiered Championship as mentioned above.

Pros:
1. Can be scheduled in a shorter time frame. Truncate intercounty season.
2. Doesn't increase the number of teams who can win the All-Ireland, certainly not initially.
3. Removes unequal path to All Ireland later stages. All counties would have reasonable aspirations to win at their level. Provincial championships can be retained and run off concurrently if felt necessary.
4. Few if any mismatches.
5. Virtually all games will be meaningful. Losing any particular game could derail your entire season.

Cons:
A. Opposition to a tiered football championship has been registered by players.
B. Counties "demoted" to lower tiers as opposed to all starting at same level currently.
C. Potential lack of media interest in lower tiers.
D. Break with tradition especially removal of provincial championships either totally or as a pathway to All-Ireland.
E. Speculation that better teams will just become better and the elite will move further and further ahead.

Response to Cons:
A. I believe that opposition is largely due to the poor efforts at introducing the Tommy Murphy Cup and the tiered championships in hurling. Tommy Murphy Cup was a losers competition. Hurling championships are very different as there is a vast chasm in terms of ability between top tier and even second tier. I believe a proposal such as the one we're talking about would meet with a favourable response from players.
B. Pathway back into All-Ireland semi finals means the demotion can be short circuited by winning games. Also, promotion/relegation must exist between tiers to reward improvement/penalise poor performance.
C. This is beyond control of GAA but I'd guess the coverage of Carlow v. Wicklow in tier 3 now wouldn't be less than the same game in the Leinster Championship. GAA should insist on live coverage of finals of each tier (like rugby do with womens and U20) which would be an improvement for most of the weaker counties....being on TV in a meaningful game rather than the occasional appearance as canon fodder.
D. Difficult for many to accept but I'd argue that this system has been outgrown. Potential to retain provincial championships as standalone competitions if the desire is there.
E. Certainly I don't feel this system would worsen the situation in this regard and might even improve it. It's a concern that won't be addressed by championship structures in my opinion.

[thewobbler]

A. I believe that opposition is largely due to the poor efforts at introducing the Tommy Murphy Cup and the tiered championships in hurling. Tommy Murphy Cup was a losers competition. Hurling championships are very different as there is a vast chasm in terms of ability between top tier and even second tier. I believe a proposal such as the one we're talking about would meet with a favourable response from players.
But there's no evidence of a favourable response. I've yet to hear of a single county player from a "lower 16" county in favour of a tiered Championship.

If this was a business plan you'd be required to benchmark - and the strategy you're recommending is very similar to that which was applied in hurling. Which has done almost nothing for the sport apart from a) increase the chasm, b) force county boards in lower counties to continue spending heavily to support teams which have little to no public following, and c) increase the likelihood of the major 8 counties going semi-pro.

This is beyond control of GAA but I'd guess the coverage of Carlow v. Wicklow in tier 3 now wouldn't be less than the same game in the Leinster Championship. GAA should insist on live coverage of finals of each tier (like rugby do with womens and U20) which would be an improvement for most of the weaker counties....being on TV in a meaningful game rather than the occasional appearance as canon fodder.
You are comparing apples and pears. Public broadcasters have a public service remit which includes televising minority sports. Women's rugby is a minority sport. Rugby has been very clever to play to this remit. Gaelic Football cannot argue on any level that forcing D3 games to be televised is helping broadcasters fulfil that remit.

E. Certainly I don't feel this system would worsen the situation in this regard and might even improve it. It's a concern that won't be addressed by championship structures in my opinion.
What you're trying to achieve here (give smaller counties more suitable football, and an opportunity to improve year-on-year, would be much more practical to implement through higher-profile national league. Merging the concepts of league and championship football, imho, muddies both, and produces a weaker end product.

[Rossfan]

Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.

[AZOffaly]

Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.

The Qualifiers were also brought in by wise old heads. Again to increase revenue. Are they a success? Are they even better than just straight knockout?

[Rossfan]

Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not  locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.

[Esmarelda]

Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not  locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.

You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?

[AZOffaly]

Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not  locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.

You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?

Yeah, those guys who for some reason rejected a motion that would make their votes transparent.

[Rossfan]

Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not  locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.

You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?

How many players attend Club AGMs?

[Esmarelda]

Straight knock out = train for 9 months for 1 game for half the players.
Might be ok if a 32 County competition and not  locked into unequal Provinces.
No matter what structures us introduced it will have to be passed by the Wise Old Ones.

You mean the county board reps who are instructed how to vote by the club reps at the county board meetings who are sent by the various clubs of whom all the players are members?

How many players attend Club AGMs?

As many as want to. Such decisions are most likely taken at a monthly meeting though.

I find it a bit strange that there's a need for the CPA to exist when so few players go through the club route if they have grievances.

[Rossfan]

What percentage of players want to go to Club AGMS?

[thewobbler]

Unless the League is somehow incorporated into the Championship it is and will remain a pre Season tournament with teams at varying level of fitness, trialling new lads missing Club Championship lads etc.
My main objections to Seànie's well thought out idea is letting the lowest tier Champions into a Semi Final.
I'd go for Quarter Final at most
Could I also point out again that both player organisations were totally opposed to the "Super 8" but the wise old heads of Congress went ahead as they always will.
Lifetime of experience versus young undeveloped minds who will be active for a few short years.

The Qualifiers were also brought in by wise old heads. Again to increase revenue. Are they a success? Are they even better than just straight knockout?

They weren't brought in to generate revenue per se. They were brought in to address the problem that counties were training for 6 months for 1 match. Its biggest failing is that it (unnecessarily) elongated the span of the county season, and has made the issue of county player availability more prominent across Ireland.

The solution was, is and always has been to raise the profile of the league, and give smaller counties a platform to incrementally improve.

The league as a competition has improved over the past 15 years. But it's still such a poor cousin.

[thewobbler]

What percentage of players want to go to Club AGMS?

A much smaller percentage than that of players who complain endlessly about being shafted by county boards.