Money, Dublin and the GAA

[Dinny Breen]

Debunk away so, enlighten us?

Counties receive dev funding from central and provincial councils. Ewans numbers only cover central council funding they ignore provincial council funding. 60% ( or approx 5m) of games dev funding is distributed via the provincial councils each year. Surely you cannot come to conclusions on funding based on only 40% of the data. If you apply for a mortgage you need to show the bank manager all of your accounts not just the one that makes your case look good.

Ewan uses this method as it suits his agenda because there is one key difference between Dublin and other counties. Dubs receive the bulk of their funding from central council, where as the opposite is true for the other counties, they all receive the majority of their funding from their provincial council. Therefore by just using central council funding the numbers are skewed misleadingly against Dublin.

The other thing he does to get his headline grabbing numbers is divide the total funding by no. of registered gaa players in the county. Which is also completely misleading as it is common knowledge that these funds are also used to coach non registered kids in schools.

Would you agree based on the above that his numbers are incorrect and have been debunked?

Show us the money, not anecdotal evidence. Show us the accounts and break it down you are are the one attempting a debunk, we have all seen the figures from Central Council so show us the Leinster Council Break down over the last 14 years. While you are at it, also show us where any county outside capital projects got direct governement funding for games development!

The figures from Leinster broken down by county are not available. As Ewan doesn't include these numbers, I don't need these numbers to debunk his. In his article he states that Dublin were given 16m in GD funding and Tyrone were given 560k. He doesn't state that this is Central council only or Provincial Council only, therefore he is saying these are the amounts of total GD funding received. I have already proved that this is incorrect so the numbers in his article have been proven to be false as it is a fact that all counties also receive GD funds from their provincial council.

How ridiculous is it to analyse one stream of the funding, come to final figures, not even disclose that these figures do not cover all funding distributed and state that this proves Dublin are financially doped.

I have seen figures from the Leinster Council for 2015 & 2016 where they have some details on games development funding. In these years they have 4.5m and 4.8m funding respectively. Both years have 240k assigned to Dublin Coaching Project, which is approx 5% of the total, leaving a whopping 8.8m that people seem to be presuming that the bulk of which, without any evidence whatsoever goes to Dublin.

You can't debunk something with conjecture, show us the Leinster Council figures, marry them to the Central Council figures which are available and show a clear ridiculous bias to Dublin.

Even take your 9.3 million from the Leinster Council, 480K of that was ring fenced for Dublin. So 5% already is unavailable to other counties, can you provide numerical evidence that none of that remaining 95% goes towards Dublin.

What we do know is that is over the last 14 years Dublin has received in excess including CC and LC funding of 1.5m a year. If you split for arguments sake 4.5m per year evenly between 11 counties at most each county gets 400K per year. So allowing for LC games development funding Dublin are still getting 4 times funding greater than any Leinster county all things being equal. And I doubt there was over 4m a year available to Leinster counties over the last 14 years.

Why is the bar set so high for me to prove Dublin have not been financially doped while you are willing to believe they are based on figures that have been shown to be incomplete and only cover a fraction of funding distributed? Did you ever ask Ewan MacKenna to include the provincial funding in his figures? Why not? Double Standards. No one has the Leinster Council figures broken down by county because they are not in the public domain. But there is 4 million plus funding there (maybe a bit less going back the 14 years) for the Leinster Council to distribute which would greatly change the funding per capita totals for each county.

Because the Central Council funds show a massive proven disparity. You only have conjecture for Leinster Council, you are not very good at this debunking lark are you?

[Lone Shark]

And Longford were super competitive until the funding issue....

Its 40 years since the second least populated county won anything. By all means use a traditionally competitive county who are falling behind. But Longford are exactly where they always were.

You're right - Longford are the same place they always were. The issue is not that Longford have regressed. It's that Dublin, fuelled by utterly unprecedented financial assistance, are miles out in front, far more than any other team in either sport ever was.

Dublin were always better than Longford over any sustainable amount of time, but the sides met 18 times in the history of championship football up to this year, and Dublin's record read W15, D1, L2. Five of those wins were by a double figure margin, five of those wins were by two goals or less.

This year's Leinster championship meeting was a record win, and it was exactly what was expected. Does anybody on here realistically believe that if the sides met every year for the next six years, that Longford would get a draw or a win in one of those six meetings? Never mind that, does anyone realistically believe that Longford would have any chance of getting within two goals of Dublin, as they did in 9 of their previous 18 meetings? That would be a 20/1 shot now.

Nobody's asking for a system where Longford have a 50/50 chance of beating Dublin in a one off game - but beating them once in a generation should be attainable, and it isn't under the current system.

[Falcao]

Because the Central Council funds show a massive proven disparity. You only have conjecture for Leinster Council, you are not very good at this debunking lark are you?

So ignoring the Provincial Council funding completely and forming conclusions based on a subset of GD funding distributed isn't conjecture? I think you will find it is.

[Syferus]

Because the Central Council funds show a massive proven disparity. You only have conjecture for Leinster Council, you are not very good at this debunking lark are you?

So ignoring the Provincial Council funding completely and forming conclusions based on a subset of GD funding distributed isn't conjecture? I think you will find it is.

Sinking faster than Falcao's goal-scoring record in England..

[Dinny Breen]

Because the Central Council funds show a massive proven disparity. You only have conjecture for Leinster Council, you are not very good at this debunking lark are you?

So ignoring the Provincial Council funding completely and forming conclusions based on a subset of GD funding distributed isn't conjecture? I think you will find it is.

You do know conjecture is basing opinion around incomplete information.

We have the Central Council funding information, this is in the public domain, this shows Dublin as an entity getting vastly disproportionate funding.

We do not have have the Leinster Council funding allocation figures, we do know that in 2016 and 2017 5% of this was specifically ring fenced for Dublin. We do not know how the other 95% was allocated, was Dublin excluded from this 95%? How was the previous 12 years allocated?  It seems you are making the assumption that this Leinster Council funding gets distributed to the other 11 Leinster Counties excluding Dublin and that is leading to disparity in figures being reported in the media. You could well be right but you have shown us nothing to prove this.

[Falcao]

You do know conjecture is basing opinion around incomplete information.

Yes, what I am saying is that it is irrelevant which council the funding comes from. If you are currently saying Dublin are financially doped due to GD funding received you are doing so on incomplete information because you don't know how much any county receives in total GD funding.

[Dinny Breen]

You do know conjecture is basing opinion around incomplete information.

Yes, what I am saying is that it is irrelevant which council the funding comes from. If you are currently saying Dublin are financially doped due to GD funding received you are doing so on incomplete information because you don't know how much any county receives in total GD funding.

Dublin get the majority of Games Development funding from Central Council, that is an disputable fact.

You have yet to provide the Leinster Council Provincial figures apart from what we know happened in 2016 and 2017. Even if Dublin don't get another cent outside the 5% ring-fenced the remaining 8.9 million spread across 11 counties is still considerable less that Dublin's funding. When 2+2+?=6 we all know what ? is equal to.

Dublin are funded like a province expect that province only has one county to worry about. You have provided no evidence otherwise.

If you were right and considering the attention this is receiving in the media do you not think the GAA would release the LC figures over the last 14 years to show the additional funding towards the other Leinster Counties and that the funding gap is not as wide as the GC demonstrates? Or is there a reason why they haven't released the figures?

[seafoid]

You do know conjecture is basing opinion around incomplete information.

Yes, what I am saying is that it is irrelevant which council the funding comes from. If you are currently saying Dublin are financially doped due to GD funding received you are doing so on incomplete information because you don't know how much any county receives in total GD funding.

Dublin get the majority of Games Development funding from Central Council, that is an disputable fact.

You have yet to provide the Leinster Council Provincial figures apart from what we know happened in 2016 and 2017. Even if Dublin don't get another cent outside the 5% ring-fenced the remaining 8.9 million spread across 11 counties is still considerable less that Dublin's funding. When 2+2+?=6 we all know what ? is equal to.

Dublin are funded like a province expect that province only has one county to worry about. You have provided no evidence otherwise.

If you were right and considering the attention this is receiving in the media do you not think the GAA would release the LC figures over the last 14 years to show the additional funding towards the other Leinster Counties and that the funding gap is not as wide as the GC demonstrates? Or is there a reason why they haven't released the figures?

Dinny

We need a reference thread with all the relevant info about the Dub Financial doping system

[Dinny Breen]

You do know conjecture is basing opinion around incomplete information.

Yes, what I am saying is that it is irrelevant which council the funding comes from. If you are currently saying Dublin are financially doped due to GD funding received you are doing so on incomplete information because you don't know how much any county receives in total GD funding.

Dublin get the majority of Games Development funding from Central Council, that is an disputable fact.

You have yet to provide the Leinster Council Provincial figures apart from what we know happened in 2016 and 2017. Even if Dublin don't get another cent outside the 5% ring-fenced the remaining 8.9 million spread across 11 counties is still considerable less that Dublin's funding. When 2+2+?=6 we all know what ? is equal to.

Dublin are funded like a province expect that province only has one county to worry about. You have provided no evidence otherwise.

If you were right and considering the attention this is receiving in the media do you not think the GAA would release the LC figures over the last 14 years to show the additional funding towards the other Leinster Counties and that the funding gap is not as wide as the GC demonstrates? Or is there a reason why they haven't released the figures?

Dinny

We need a reference thread with all the relevant info about the Dub Financial doping system

I suppose we'd have to allow references for bitter, lemon, begrudgery, Micko & Geezers millions, UK Sports funding, JP etc

It's open up a lot of debate in fairness, a lot of on-line traction, MacKenna as you would expect, Parkinson, Clerkin, Sweeney, OTB have all written or spoken about it in the last few months.

We even have some newbies adding a different more informed Dublin perspective..

[dec]

so, Dublin have 2,060 club teams in total (adult+youth combined, from 2017 insurance report) and Longford have 211, but the argument is that both have 1 intercounty team so you ignore the amount of club work needed and just fund them equally ?

agh now seriously ! Even look at the amount of kids there are and the amount of coaching resources needed to cover them.

Maybe take the number of primary school kids as representative of the job of work that a county board has in training young players in schools. (Yes, some younger kids wont be trained, but as a comparison between a big county and a small county to work out ratios it is a reasonable start)
In Longford theres 5,365 kids in primary schools that the county board has to reach/ introduce the games to.
In Dublin theres 142,815 kids in primary schools that they are looking to expose to gaelic games.
That's 26 times more kids in Dublin than Longford, so to argue that both boards need equal (kids) development resources just because they have both 1 intercounty football team is a non argument.
Last year Dublin got €1.29million, Longford €120k in games development grants, 10 times more, yet they have 26 times more kids, so if you wanted to argue anything then Dublin could be said to be chronically underfunded per capita than the likes of Longford !

Compare it to Kildare instead (mentioned in the quoted article) where theres 29,748 school pupils, meaning Dublin has 4.8 times the amount of kids as Kildare. Kildare got €226k in central development grants last year, meaning that Dublin got 5.7 times the development grants that Kildare got - so in this case Dublin are over funded but not a 20 fold, 2000% difference like the article from Colm Keyes makes out.
(€40k extra for Kildare would leave them the same proportionate to the number of kids in their catchment )

CSO primary school stats : https://www.cso.ie/px/pxeirestat/Statire/SelectVarVal/Define.asp?maintable=EDA57&PLanguage=0

its interesting to see how you can use stats associated with the numbers of kids in each county, kids who are the actual target for all this development spending, and when you aren't a paid journalist being told to make a headline grabbing article against the Dubs (for a paper whose main sales are outside the capital), you can show that the funding for Dublin mightn't be as crazily imbalanced as some make out.

Dublin have 26times more kids than a small county like Longford, and that has to be factored in in some way or other when claiming they get too much.

The best argument yet I have seen to split Dublin into 4. They have the population of a province, the funding of a province yet still only have a pathway to 1 inter-county team.

Fingal GAA, Dun Laoghaire GAA, Dublin City GAA and South Dublin GAA need to become a reality.

Would we need to change the basic aim of the association to be "the strengthening of the National Identity in a 35 County Ireland"

"Basic Aim
The Association is a National Organisation which has as
its basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity
in a 32 County Ireland through the preservation and
promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes."

[criostlinn]

Where is all the money that is been pumped into Dublin Gaa going. They are attracting huge sponsors. The clubs have massive membership and should be self sufficient with not only money for facilities but volunteers for coaching. Its seemingly not been spent on the intercounty teams. So what return are the government or the gaa or who is providing these massive grants getting back for it.

[Baile Brigín 2]

Where is all the money that is been pumped into Dublin Gaa going. They are attracting huge sponsors. The clubs have massive membership and should be self sufficient with not only money for facilities but volunteers for coaching. Its seemingly not been spent on the intercounty teams. So what return are the government or the gaa or who is providing these massive grants getting back for it.

'the clubs...'

[thejuice]

Perhaps every County team should have the same sponsor and then the money divied out evenly.

I'd imagine the likes of AIG or whoever would pay a significant amount for that amount of exposure in every single game and in every jersey sold. There could then be secondary sponsors that are more locally sourced.

[J70]

Listened to McKenna there on Dunphy's podcast. Dunphy is deferential to his guests, but I thought McKenna spoke pretty intelligently on the Dublin issue, at least to my relatively out of touch ear.

[TheGreatest]

Where is all the money that is been pumped into Dublin Gaa going. They are attracting huge sponsors. The clubs have massive membership and should be self sufficient with not only money for facilities but volunteers for coaching. Its seemingly not been spent on the intercounty teams. So what return are the government or the gaa or who is providing these massive grants getting back for it.

'the clubs...'

They don't want to hear the truth, pipedown. They think all the money goes into the Senior football team . . . . . .

https://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/alan-brogan-dublin-worked-slavishly-hard-for-their-allireland-successes-and-its-an-insult-to-attribute-it-to-money-37290634.html