Gaelic Football RIP

Started by High Fielder, July 21, 2018, 06:37:09 PM

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trailer

Quote from: dec on July 26, 2018, 02:02:48 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 25, 2018, 01:32:57 AM
https://m.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/poll-would-awarding-two-points-for-a-long-range-score-help-to-combat-the-blanket-defence-in-gaelic-football-37149369.html

I don't think this is a good idea. If a player has the ability to score a point from distance they will do so. There is a cliche in the game "take your points, goals will come". This arose from the tendency of some forwards to waste a scoring opportunity by trying for a goal that wasn't on and turning down a makeable point. A 2 point line would encourage players to try long range shots when the better option would be to advance the ball either for a better scoring chance for themselves or passing to a better placed teammate.

Just what was needed, another f**king stupid idea.

Zulu

Why is it a stupid idea? Now whether it would impact blanket defending or is worth trying can be debated but it is hardly a stupid suggestion. The only change required would be to mark out the two point scoring zone so it seems to me to be a very good idea. It doesn't impact on refs or players too much but encourages scores from further out and potentially punishes teams that lie very deep. As far as I can see it would either be a positive or have little impact, it wouldn't lead to negative unintended consequences as it's only a minor change to the scoring system.

trailer

Because it wouldn't change the blanket defence. Where is the 2 point zone? Outside the 45? Not many players can kick a point from outside the 45, hence the reason the defence is inside the 45.
Why not go to 13 aside, and limit subs? There's two very simply changes that would make more of a difference than all the stupid 2 point kicks, or shot clocks, or forward marks, or no back passing, insert stupid idea here, rule changes.

Zulu

Quote from: trailer on July 26, 2018, 01:46:43 PM
Football now is more entertaining than it ever was. Good defending is an art. If you understand the game, understand what teams are trying to achieve, you will enjoy the match. Unfortunately some people just haven't that ability. They are Brexit voters, they want something different but they don't know what it is, or how to get it, but they want it.
They're just really confused and upset that one team just won't kick the ball away to give the other team ago. U-8 football would suit them better. Everyone is a winner, everyone is great, everyone gets a go, and everyone gets a medal, a drink and a packet of crisps.

Ah here, that's not true and demeans those arguing that football is evolving or a good spectacle to suggest that those who question the entertainment value of football just 'don't get it'. I was at last years All Ireland final and it was brilliant, there have been many good games in the past few years but there's also been complete muck and periods of utter boredom with pass the parcel games in front of massed defences. If that entertains you then fair enough but most of us don't find it engaging.

I recently saw one of the Tyrone Kerry All Irelands of the 2000's (not sure which one) and I was surprised by the amount of catch and kick type football that was still on display and it was wonderful to watch again. The crowd was engaged and every turnover or ball won celebrated. Now we have keep ball and recycling if there's any risk of losing the ball which is awful to watch and certainly just engage the crowd. I think there's plenty to admire about the current game but to my mind we are definitely over coaching the sport and being too defensively minded. The balance isn't right yet. Conor McManus and Micheal Murphy proved that we still have forwards who can light up the sport in full forward if given a bit of space and Kerry showed you can allow that and still compete. Mayo have shown this too so hopefully more teams will drop less players back and trust their defenders a bit more to defend.



trailer

Quote from: Zulu on July 26, 2018, 03:03:51 PM
Quote from: trailer on July 26, 2018, 01:46:43 PM
Football now is more entertaining than it ever was. Good defending is an art. If you understand the game, understand what teams are trying to achieve, you will enjoy the match. Unfortunately some people just haven't that ability. They are Brexit voters, they want something different but they don't know what it is, or how to get it, but they want it.
They're just really confused and upset that one team just won't kick the ball away to give the other team ago. U-8 football would suit them better. Everyone is a winner, everyone is great, everyone gets a go, and everyone gets a medal, a drink and a packet of crisps.

Ah here, that's not true and demeans those arguing that football is evolving or a good spectacle to suggest that those who question the entertainment value of football just 'don't get it'. I was at last years All Ireland final and it was brilliant, there have been many good games in the past few years but there's also been complete muck and periods of utter boredom with pass the parcel games in front of massed defences. If that entertains you then fair enough but most of us don't find it engaging.

I recently saw one of the Tyrone Kerry All Irelands of the 2000's (not sure which one) and I was surprised by the amount of catch and kick type football that was still on display and it was wonderful to watch again. The crowd was engaged and every turnover or ball won celebrated. Now we have keep ball and recycling if there's any risk of losing the ball which is awful to watch and certainly just engage the crowd. I think there's plenty to admire about the current game but to my mind we are definitely over coaching the sport and being too defensively minded. The balance isn't right yet. Conor McManus and Micheal Murphy proved that we still have forwards who can light up the sport in full forward if given a bit of space and Kerry showed you can allow that and still compete. Mayo have shown this too so hopefully more teams will drop less players back and trust their defenders a bit more to defend.

If you were scoring 4-24 in a match against a top 8 team, why on earth would you revert from that and make it easier for the opposition to score?
Why are high scoring games not entertaining?
What do 'fans' want to see? And don't quote one game from 10 years ago. Because for every 1 memorable game from years ago there are 10 utterly forgettable ones.

Zulu

I didn't just quote one game, I pointed out that there are good games now and good games from the past but I think the modern game is far more likely to provide games which are poor due to the way the game is played.

All teams can play as they want but likewise, supporters can be critical of it without being told they just don't get 'it'. I don't think Tyrone need to play as they do to score 4-24 against certain teams and if they played differently and scored just as much but conceded a bit more is that a problem?

Tyrone played a blanket defence last year and got hammered by Dublin, had they gone at Dublin like Mayo did they may still have lost but at least they would have had a chance.

I think massed defensive set ups are not effective against the top teams who will just pass and probe until a soft free is won or good scoring chance appears. When games turn into that type of game then it is a very poor spectacle with no intensity, no physicality, little skill and no entertainment. We shouldn't be happy with our game going down that road. I see no issue with trying a few rule changes if coaches don't move away from that type game.

APM

#126
Quote from: trailer on July 26, 2018, 03:13:23 PM
What do 'fans' want to see? And don't quote one game from 10 years ago. Because for every 1 memorable game from years ago there are 10 utterly forgettable ones.

The answer is in the post you were replying to and I think it's more about what we don't want to see!!

What we don't want to see!
Quote from: Zulu on July 26, 2018, 03:03:51 PM
- complete muck and periods of utter boredom with pass the parcel games in front of massed defences
- keep ball and recycling



dec

Get rid of the handpass, it would make it a lot more difficult to play keep ball.

APM

This is when your favourite rock band changes style and brings out a shite country and western album.   The loyal fans try to persuade us we would like it if we were just clever or advanced enough.  We mustn't be good enough fans, because if we were we would immerse ourselves in it and grow to love it.  Come on, its an acquired taste, you only get out of it what you put into it.  You need to study the game and understand it better.  You go to see them at Electric Picnic and try to convince yourself that this is class - but really its only when they play their old hits that you recognise the stuff that you know and love.

Usually when this happens a band, they are finished.  Hopefully the GAA can amend the rules to stop this pass the parcel, risk-aversion shite and encourage more entertaining football.

This really is like the Emperors new clothes! The sooner people see it the better. 

Throw ball

Quote from: trailer on July 26, 2018, 01:46:43 PM
Football now is more entertaining than it ever was. Good defending is an art. If you understand the game, understand what teams are trying to achieve, you will enjoy the match. Unfortunately some people just haven't that ability. They are Brexit voters, they want something different but they don't know what it is, or how to get it, but they want it.
They're just really confused and upset that one team just won't kick the ball away to give the other team ago. U-8 football would suit them better. Everyone is a winner, everyone is great, everyone gets a go, and everyone gets a medal, a drink and a packet of crisps.

I think it is you who is missing the point. Some games are entertaining but many are not. Just like in the past. The problem is it doesn't matter if students of the game find defensive football enthralling. If crowds disappear the game disappears. The game has to be entertaining for a greater number of people if it is to flourish.

Personally I had this pass the parcel keep ball. I understand the objectives and appreciate why managers play this way but I don't enjoy it. I also feel it is bad for the game when one team dominates so much. I hope that is cyclical. 

RedHand88

Quote from: dec on July 26, 2018, 06:29:35 PM
Get rid of the handpass, it would make it a lot more difficult to play keep ball.

"Sorry lads, I know yous have been taught to handpass from you were 5 year old but we are completely changing the sport. You'll just have to suck it up".

Rossfan

Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

trailer

Quote from: RedHand88 on July 26, 2018, 06:56:40 PM
Quote from: dec on July 26, 2018, 06:29:35 PM
Get rid of the handpass, it would make it a lot more difficult to play keep ball.

"Sorry lads, I know yous have been taught to handpass from you were 5 year old but we are completely changing the sport. You'll just have to suck it up".

This is what you're up against. Ban the handpass, like wtf?
I really worry for some people. They want change, not sure what they exactly want, but change, even if we have to introduce some ridiculous rules. Similar to those who voted Brexit. Some very confused people around.

dec

Martin Carney in 2005

https://www.independent.ie/sport/why-the-hand-pass-is-killing-gaelic-football-25955497.html

"Let's be brutally frank about this - extensive use of the hand pass is ruining Gaelic football as a spectacle," said Carney. It's getting worse, not better and unless something is done about it, kicking the ball will be virtually redundant in a few years except in the scoring area. "What impact will that have on the public? Somehow, I don't think it's going to appeal to them."

He believes a culture of fear has crept into Gaelic football which makes even good kickers use the hand pass over a short distance, rather than take a chance with a longer foot pass. "Coaches are under so much pressure to win games that they concentrate much of their energies on devising ways of retaining possession. The hand pass is the best way of achieving that but it's making Gaelic football look more like rugby league all the time. "I'm not blaming the coaches for exploiting the hand pass but we need to do something to return to the primacy of kicking and catching, which are the two most basic skills in football."

APM

Right Trailer:
I don't want to abolish the handpass either.  But you surely accept that football rules have changed numerous times over the years to improve the game as a spectacle and to ensure that rules were easy to referee. See the following:
Free kick from the ground
The mark
Handpassed goals
Square ball
All the players in the middle for the throw in by a bishop
Sidelines on the ground

So changing the rules is as much a part of the GAA as some of the rules themselves.  No different to other sports when needs arise.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Maybe you like what you're watching, but lots of good GAA people on here are fed up with what they are seeing and the attendances are falling. 

Based on this, can you not accept that there are aspects of today's game that can render games a poor spectacle as outlined by Zulu above.  What would you do to improve this?