Gaelic Football RIP

Started by High Fielder, July 21, 2018, 06:37:09 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

trileacman

Quote from: sid waddell on July 22, 2018, 08:47:08 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 22, 2018, 07:57:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 22, 2018, 07:24:29 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 22, 2018, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 22, 2018, 03:32:49 PM
Probably a premature obituary - keep her in the can lad. ;)

not dead on a life support machine    : ) 2 swallows don't make a summer neither do two good games

It used to and thanks to TG4 we know that those "good" ones werent even that good

no-one mentioned those old games shown on TG4 but there were loads of great games during the noughties involving Tyrone, Armagh, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal even Sligo....so good  Ulster finals had to move to Croke Park
And loads of crap games between them.

Armagh v Tyrone 2000
Tyrone v Kerry 2003
Tyrone v Armagh 2003
Tyrone v Dublin 2008
Kerry v Dublin 2009
Kerry v Dublin 2004
Kerry v Mayo 2004
Kerry v Mayo 2006
Armagh v Donegal 2002
Armagh v Donegal 2004
Armagh v Donegal 2006
Armagh v Donegal 2007
Dublin v Donegal 2002
Tyrone v Donegal 2007
Tyrone v Mayo 2008

Throw in Cork, too.

All the following games were crap.

Kerry v Cork 2002 x 3
Kerry v Cork 2004
Kerry v Cork 2005
Kerry v Cork 2006 x 2
Kerry v Cork 2007
Cork v Meath 2007
Kerry v Cork 2009 final
Cork v Donegal 2009

Most of those games maybe weren't high scoring but they carried major significance in many ways. Tyrone Kerry was a giant slaying at the time that raised huge level of comment in the gaa world. It would stoke up tensions that contributed to a great rivalry and huge interest in the decades games.

Likewise Tyrone Armagh final wasn't a great match but still a great atmosphere. If Monaghan go on to win the ai title this year by 12 to Dublin's 9 you could hardly say it's a dire moment for Gaelic football.

The main problem is the predictability and lack of competitiveness that exists now. Dublin's dominance hangs like a cloud over the sport, belittling the achievements of good sides like and destroying the football traditions of the Leinster teams.

Some games are poor but blanket defences can still afford the few good matches a year that we always had. It's the competitive gap that has opened up between Dublin and the div 1 sides and the div 1 sides and the rest that is killing the game and the interest in it.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

sid waddell

#61
Quote from: trileacman on July 23, 2018, 12:27:18 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on July 22, 2018, 08:47:08 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 22, 2018, 07:57:37 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 22, 2018, 07:24:29 PM
Quote from: longballin on July 22, 2018, 03:54:33 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 22, 2018, 03:32:49 PM
Probably a premature obituary - keep her in the can lad. ;)

not dead on a life support machine    : ) 2 swallows don't make a summer neither do two good games

It used to and thanks to TG4 we know that those "good" ones werent even that good

no-one mentioned those old games shown on TG4 but there were loads of great games during the noughties involving Tyrone, Armagh, Dublin, Kerry, Mayo, Donegal even Sligo....so good  Ulster finals had to move to Croke Park
And loads of crap games between them.

Armagh v Tyrone 2000
Tyrone v Kerry 2003
Tyrone v Armagh 2003
Tyrone v Dublin 2008
Kerry v Dublin 2009
Kerry v Dublin 2004
Kerry v Mayo 2004
Kerry v Mayo 2006
Armagh v Donegal 2002
Armagh v Donegal 2004
Armagh v Donegal 2006
Armagh v Donegal 2007
Dublin v Donegal 2002
Tyrone v Donegal 2007
Tyrone v Mayo 2008

Throw in Cork, too.

All the following games were crap.

Kerry v Cork 2002 x 3
Kerry v Cork 2004
Kerry v Cork 2005
Kerry v Cork 2006 x 2
Kerry v Cork 2007
Cork v Meath 2007
Kerry v Cork 2009 final
Cork v Donegal 2009

Most of those games maybe weren't high scoring but they carried major significance in many ways. Tyrone Kerry was a giant slaying at the time that raised huge level of comment in the gaa world. It would stoke up tensions that contributed to a great rivalry and huge interest in the decades games.

Likewise Tyrone Armagh final wasn't a great match but still a great atmosphere. If Monaghan go on to win the ai title this year by 12 to Dublin's 9 you could hardly say it's a dire moment for Gaelic football.

The main problem is the predictability and lack of competitiveness that exists now. Dublin's dominance hangs like a cloud over the sport, belittling the achievements of good sides like and destroying the football traditions of the Leinster teams.

Some games are poor but blanket defences can still afford the few good matches a year that we always had. It's the competitive gap that has opened up between Dublin and the div 1 sides and the div 1 sides and the rest that is killing the game and the interest in it.

Tyrone v Kerry 2003 certainly carried major significance. Attending that as a neutral against Kerry (as I always am, as a Dub), I found it it fascinating, tense, grimly compelling. 

But there's no way to argue it was a classic football game, it was an absolute dogfight. It scandalised the easily shocked sections of the Gaelic football world at the time in a similar manner to how the easily shocked sections of this board are scandalised by current day Gaelic football.

Dublin v Donegal 2011 carried similar such significance, and again, I found it grimly compelling. That was the same Donegal team that had been beaten out the gate in the previous two years by Cork and Armagh and the same team that would go on to win the All-Ireland in devastatingly effective style the next year.

In reality, what has happened in Gaelic football this decade isn't a whole lot different from what happened in the 2000s.

You say Dublin's presence hangs like a cloud over the sport, yet Dublin's All-Ireland final record in this decade reads as follows:
Won by 1
Won by 1
Won by 3
Draw
Won by 1
Won by 1

Their semi-final record since 2011 is:
Won by 2
Lost by 3
Won by 7 (a game that was level after 69 minutes)
Lost by 6
Draw
Won by 6 (Mayo led by 4 with 17 minutes left)
Won by 2
Won by 12

In 14 All-Ireland semi-finals and finals, only once have they "done a job" on the opposition, and that was the semi-final against Tyrone last year.

In every other one of those 13 games, they either didn't win, or could have lost had a little thing or two worked out differently.

In reality, since 2011, Dublin have never been that far ahead of Mayo or Kerry, or Donegal up to 2014.

Like any team, they rely on key individuals, and some of those key individuals have either already departed, declined significantly, or are beginning to decline.

In the 2000s, there was a clear hierarchy in the game. Up to 2001, Kerry, Meath and Galway were the three clear front runners.

Then Meath and Galway declined and Tyrone and Armagh took their places until Armagh declined rapidly after 2006 and Tyrone began to decline gradually after 2008.

But Kerry's presence in 2000s football "hung like a cloud". They reached eight All-Ireland finals in the decade and won five. They reached six in a row from 2004 to 2009.

Three of the finals they won were total massacres.

Dublin do and have had have competition, serious competition, from counties who take the game seriously. Mayo, Kerry, Donegal. Galway are joining that bracket now. Tyrone caught a tarter last year but are a serious football county. Kildare mightn't be far away.

The counties who are genuinely serious about competing will compete. Those who aren't, like Meath, Down, Derry and now Cork, won't.

Gaelic football is no different in that regard than it has always been.






TheClubman

Quote from: seafoid on July 22, 2018, 10:04:16 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 22, 2018, 12:16:14 AM
Not only is it becoming something no one wants to watch it's becoming a game no one wants to play. The amount of lads walking off panels or turning down a place on the squad is ever growing.

Supposedly Kevin Walsh has had 52 players either leave or refuse to join the squad in the last two years. I can't say if that's true but if it is it's staggering that they're even competing. Meath, Derry, Offaly and Cork have all experienced similar the last few years.

It's not just that players don't think they can compete or meet the demands of training it's also they simply don't like playing in these "systems". It's not enjoyable.
It takes 3-4 years of S&C to get a good u21 up to speed for senior intercounty in hurling. Football must be the same.
That is a huge commitment
And you can't just lob it into the square now.. You have to have runners off the shoulder. It's more systemic than intuitive.

David Clifford is 19. He seems to be doing ok.

TheClubman

The nature of the game has changed greatly in the last 15 years and many can't accept the new version. It's not as helter skelter, cut and thrust as it used to be but it's a lot more thought out and tactical. Personally I like the tactical battle and seeing the ways good, top quality teams and individuals can beat defensive structures. We're actually seeing higher average scores in intercounty (don't have the stats but read it somewhere). The Super 8 games bar the ones involving Roscommon have been good tactical battles. If that doesn't entertain people that's fine and the diminishing crowds seem to suggest that. I for one though have enjoyed the games even if I'm not comfortable with the whole concept.

APM

How much have the diminishing crowds to do with prices.  How much was it in to the Hyde and Clones at the weekend?

TheGreatest

A serious ridiculous thread. Football now is a good as its ever been. More skilful and athletic. Tactics applied may vary but some great games this year. Some not so great but good tense games, like Dubs v Tyrone.

People still living in the past. The modern games exceeds all.

Farrandeelin

Quote from: TheGreatest on July 23, 2018, 09:27:57 AM
A serious ridiculous thread. Football now is a good as its ever been. More skilful and athletic. Tactics applied may vary but some great games this year. Some not so great but good tense games, like Dubs v Tyrone.

People still living in the past. The modern games exceeds all.

I don't often agree with you. But you're spot on with this one.
Inaugural Football Championship Prediction Winner.

High Fielder

I created the thread and stand by the title. In my opinion, most inter county football matches are boring. Most inter county football matches are mismatches. There is an over reliance on hand passing and because fitness levels have increased, the pitch is too crowded and space to express individual skill is limited. This means we have this hybrid basketball/rugby league shite going on and players are being prepared accordingly. Dublin would kick seven shades of shite out of Dublin or Kerry from the 70s but I wouldn't pay to watch them do it. Why? Because modern football, in my opinion, is pretty boring to watch. I have no issue with people disagreeing with that and fair play if the modern game floats your boat. Just not my cup of tea.

Aside from the above,  I also have no interest watching the same teams play for the same trophies every year. There is no incentive whatsoever for small counties to play in the Championship. From the time of inception the Super 8s, with the exception of Mayo's absence, were largely prescribed. Again, not for me.

APM

Quote from: TheGreatest on July 23, 2018, 09:27:57 AM
A serious ridiculous thread. Football now is a good as its ever been. More skilful and athletic. Tactics applied may vary but some great games this year. Some not so great but good tense games, like Dubs v Tyrone.

People still living in the past. The modern games exceeds all.

The two games yesterday were excellent.  But they aren't all like that. If you don't see a problem, you need to explain why the numbers through the gates are down so badly.  I've posted on this before, see below, and reckon its a combination of the type of football, hammerings, lack of intensity and flat atmosphere.  I see the flat atmosphere and reduced crowds as a viscous circle.  Smaller crowd > worse atmosphere > Smaller crowds.  The atmosphere isn't helped by the stuff on the pitch either, when we have this game of chess going on. 

Quote from: APM on January 26, 2018, 12:50:10 PM
It's a number of things:
Not as good to watch
The blanket means that as a spectacle the game isn't as good.  I don't care what anyone says, but this business of passing the ball around in an arc around the 50 is not as good to watch as quick ball into a the full forward line, with guys like Mickey Linden, Marsden, Canavan and McDonnell out in front of their marker and taking on their men.  We just don't see as much of this in today's game as 2001.

Perception and negativity
Why would I be bothered going to games if the so-called experts keep telling me that the product is rubbish.  Notwithstanding what I have said above, I still get a kick out of watching football and we still have some fantastic games, but when the very pundits that you would expect to be promoting the game on TV are saying that every game is shite, it's little wonder attendances are falling.  The amount of negativity surrounding the games is at an all time high and it is now in vogue at all levels, from pundits down to club level, to criticise county football. 

Hammerings
In 2001 there were some hammerings, but I don't think there were so many as there are now.  Leinster was competitive.  Ulster, despite the fact that two teams dominated from 1999 to 2010, was still competitive.  Dublin matches now literally aren't worth watching until they reach the Semi-Final or Final.  They are playing at a professional level.   

Over Exposure
I remember thinking that with so many games televised and so much coverage back around 04, that supporters would lap it up for a while, but that eventually people would take it for granted and less would do them. Take the first Ulster Final that went to HQ in 2004.  There was 60,000 there.  Only 30,000 for the Ulster Final Replay in '05.  The qualifier effect was alive and well, with Sligo, Fermanagh, Limerick, Derry, Donegal getting good runs.  There were loads of novel pairings - I remember Sligo and Kildare I think attracting a great crowd on a Saturday night around '04.

Half Empty Stadiums
There is rarely a decent atmosphere in a half-full Croke Park.  It looks terrible on TV and exacerbates the notion that we have a poor product.  I cannot understand organisers taking smallish games to big stadiums.  Better to have a small ground filled to capacity, because the atmosphere is all part of the product.

It's worth asking whether there is a fundamental conflict between pleasing the crowd and having tactical / sporting excellence.  Chess doesn't get big crowds either by the way - as a spectator sport it really is the reserve of sporting anoraks.

Also, I'm not a fan of the Spectator, but I thought this was a thought provoking.   
https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/the-agony-of-world-cup-penalties/

ps - I asked above if ticket prices are an issue.  If it is, the GAA has an obvious choice.  Gate of 8,000 with prices of £10 will generate the same revenue as a gate of £16,000 at a price of £5.  I'd rather be at a game where the stadium is full, that one at a half empty stadium, with a poorer atmosphere.  I'll come away looking for more and if that means greater demand for tickets and motivation for club membership etc, then that's a good thing. 




Christmas Lights

Quote from: High Fielder on July 22, 2018, 12:10:05 AM
If by real stuff you mean uncompetitive and repetitive then fair enough. Dublin are the best exponents of the modern game, but they're hardly exciting are they? I'm just expressing a personal opinion here. I find modern intercounty football dull. The endless hand passing, the lack of physicality, the handbags blow ups, the make it up as you go along refereeing, the atmosphere at matches etc. Modern football is rubbish in my opinion

You're joking here mate right?  Or just on the wind up?  Or just generally thick?

High Fielder

I tend not to answer posts with insults. For obvious reasons. Crowding , slapping, spiteful off the ball sledging and handbags shoving contests should not be mistaken for physicality. Modern players have amazing stamina for sure, and there has to be more than a whiff about that too

Jinxy

Plenty of physicality, of the good kind, in both games yesterday.
Players throwing themselves into contact to win the ball.

If you were any use you'd be playing.

armaghniac

QuoteDublin do and have had have competition, serious competition, from counties who take the game seriously. Mayo, Kerry, Donegal. Galway are joining that bracket now. Tyrone caught a tarter last year but are a serious football county. Kildare mightn't be far away
.

Serious counties, their entire total population less than that of Dublin.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

High Fielder

I don't think ticket prices are an issue APM. But indifference is. Knowing the result beforehand, good or bad, will definitely inform your choice. If it's on TV as well, that will seal the deal. People want to be present when there's genuinely something up for grabs. How many Dubs come out of the woodwork from semis onwards

Christmas Lights

Quote from: High Fielder on July 23, 2018, 10:46:38 AM
I tend not to answer posts with insults. For obvious reasons. Crowding , slapping, spiteful off the ball sledging and handbags shoving contests should not be mistaken for physicality. Modern players have amazing stamina for sure, and there has to be more than a whiff about that too

I don't think you quite grasp the concept of physicality?  You just have to look at the conditioning of county players nowadays, its probably far more physical now than its even been.  Physicality does not equate to punching someone in the mouth or mowing someone with a late tackle.