On the twenty-eighth day of November....

Started by The Hill is Blue, November 28, 2007, 10:30:51 AM

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magickingdom

Quote from: Hardy on November 28, 2007, 03:19:29 PM
Is it?

yes it is hardy, fine gael are fascists. did you not know that? cant remember but some other shower of fascists on the continent were known as the brown shirts cause thats want they wore (think thats why they get so thick when us fianna failers used to get brown envelopes!). our boys marched in blue shirts here, caused some havoc down in kerry too in the earky 1920s. cnuts ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hardy

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 28, 2007, 06:22:27 PM
QuoteWhy? Who owns the legacy of 1920-22? And who foamed at the mouth?
No one one's that legacy Hardy but I just I think everyone can see the hypocrisy. 
I seem to recall Hill is blue as being critcal of republicans in the most recent troubles - apologies if I am incorrect.


I'm sure Hill is Blue IS a republican, like myself. As for the people he criticised, calling themselves "republicans" doesn't make them so. 

Quote from: magickingdom on November 28, 2007, 07:00:27 PM

fine gael are fascists. did you not know that?

I didn't. I thought that was the PDs, in popular estimation. But they don't really matter anymore, I suppose.

But you may be right for all I know. Though I don't recall anybody from Fine Gael kneecapping people or dumping people in a ditch with a bullet in their heads or beating people to death with iron bars because they disagreed with them. So if FG are fascists based on the activities of the blueshirts seventy years ago, there are much more prominent fascists among us these days.

his holiness nb

Lads all us Dubs wear blue tops, didnt you hear?  ;)
Ask me holy bollix

The Hill is Blue

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 28, 2007, 06:22:27 PM

I seem to recall Hill is blue as being critcal of republicans in the most recent troubles - apologies if I am incorrect.


Your recall is absolutely correct.....

Now what's that got to do with remembering the men of Kilmichael?

Remember that was a time when other notable "Blueshirts" like Michael Collins and Sean Hales were part of the same movement as Tom Barry.

BTW: I would have thought that a thread remembering the men of Kilmichael on the anniversary of the ambush would have been left as that. Surely there's enough bitching elsewhere on the board.
I remember Dublin City in the Rare Old Times http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T7OaDDR7i8

Donagh

Well there you go. On the one hand we have a bunch of men with weapons, lying in wait to ambush a police patrol. They open up on the police and afterwards go around and execute the presumably unarmed wounded as they lie helpless on the ground. Before they've even finished for the day, they kidnap another, shoot him dead and 'disappear' his body into a bog for years to come, leaving the family without a grave to visit. Then we have the brutal IRA murderers from 50 years later and well dare they claim the republican mantel without first gaining approval from our great moral Blueshirt (or is it Sky Blue, Hill is Blue, Hardy) majority as they sit it out and pass judgement on their countrymen from the safety of their Free State.

Hardy

Quote from: Donagh on November 29, 2007, 11:17:27 AMour great moral Blueshirt (or is it Sky Blue, Hill is Blue, Hardy) majority as they sit it out and pass judgement on their countrymen from the safety of their Free State.

I can't see, by any stretch of mathematics, how three people can form a majority against the legions of the provo propaganda machine on this board. However, if you meant that your provos* were opposed by the great majority of people, both in what you are pleased to call the Free State, and in the six counties, then you are indeed 100% correct, though we don't often see you admit it.

(*Yes - I'm as capable as the next man of indulging in tit-for-tat namecalling).

his holiness nb

Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2007, 11:34:22 AM
I can't see, by any stretch of mathematics, how three people can form a majority against the legions of the provo propaganda machine on this board.

Jaysus Hardy, thats a pretty small legion, I count about 4!
Ask me holy bollix

Donagh

Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2007, 11:34:22 AM
I can't see, by any stretch of mathematics, how three people can form a majority against the legions of the provo propaganda machine on this board. However, if you meant that your provos* were opposed by the great majority of people, both in what you are pleased to call the Free State, and in the six counties, then you are indeed 100% correct, though we don't often see you admit it.


If we're talking occupied territories, then I'd say both incarnations of the IRA had a very similar level of support.

Hardy

OK - I'll bite. How do you explain the electoral performance of SF in the six counties pre-ceasefire, then? Unless you redefine occupied territories as necessary to fit your statement.

(Apologies HIB for doing this to your thread).

Donagh

Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2007, 12:10:11 PM
OK - I'll bite. How do you explain the electoral performance of SF in the six counties pre-ceasefire, then? Unless you redefine occupied territories as necessary to fit your statement.

(Apologies HIB for doing this to your thread).

Different times and circumstances but even though the IRA didn't stand for election the indicators would be about half the nationalist community in the six counties would have been sympathetic. You think this is radically different from 1919-22?

Hardy

Quote from: Donagh on November 29, 2007, 12:17:25 PM
the IRA didn't stand for election
Oh right - I forgot that. They didn't in 1918 either, of course, but SF were less reticent about their identity then.

Quote
the indicators would be about half the nationalist community in the six counties would have been sympathetic.

That's about as weak an argument as I've ever seen to attempt to make the case for popular support for the prov. IRA.  "Indicators"; "about half"; "sympathetic".

To flog a political cliche, the only "indicator" that counts is the election poll.

Donagh

Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2007, 12:26:45 PM

Oh right - I forgot that. They didn't in 1918 either, of course, but SF were less reticent about their identity then.


So are you telling me all those people that voted SF in 1919 supported Dan Breen at Soloheadbeg? Aye dead on Hardy...

Quote from: Hardy on November 29, 2007, 12:26:45 PM

That's about as weak an argument as I've ever seen to attempt to make the case for popular support for the prov. IRA.  "Indicators"; "about half"; "sympathetic".


Not that I was the one making a case for popular support, but it's about as weak as your's Hardy

pintsofguinness

Quote from: Donagh on November 29, 2007, 11:17:27 AM
Well there you go. On the one hand we have a bunch of men with weapons, lying in wait to ambush a police patrol. They open up on the police and afterwards go around and execute the presumably unarmed wounded as they lie helpless on the ground. Before they've even finished for the day, they kidnap another, shoot him dead and 'disappear' his body into a bog for years to come, leaving the family without a grave to visit. Then we have the brutal IRA murderers from 50 years later and well dare they claim the republican mantel without first gaining approval from our great moral Blueshirt (or is it Sky Blue, Hill is Blue, Hardy) majority as they sit it out and pass judgement on their countrymen from the safety of their Free State.

What he said ^


I'm alright jack.
Which one of you bitches wants to dance?

Hardy

Quote from: Donagh on November 29, 2007, 12:30:37 PM

So are you telling me all those people that voted SF in 1919 supported Dan Breen at Soloheadbeg? Aye dead on Hardy...


I have no way of knowing what was in their individual heads when they voted. But I don't know any sensible commentator who would disagree that the best (often the only) measure of support for a group is their performance at the polls. On that basis, there's no comparison between SF's support in 1918 (without any equivocation or pretence about their relationship with the IRA, btw) and that of Provisional SF during the troubles. And that's even allowing your suggestion that the test be confined to a subset of the population, which of course disenfranchises the rest of us.

Hardy

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 29, 2007, 12:35:05 PM
I'm alright jack.

I'm delighted for you.

If you were being ironic, and really meant that you're not alright, what's wrong with you?