Author Topic: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down  (Read 2809 times)

Zulu

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #105 on: October 12, 2017, 05:02:38 PM »
I was listening to a podcast regarding the new hurling format and all the players on the show said they wanted more games. So players want more games, fans want more games and the GAA benefits with more games. The issue is things like the provincials and having two separate competitions (league and championship). I see no reason we can't give IC players more competitive games in a shorter timeframe.

(1) Players? Yes, they do - albeit I would question their motivation, in some cases. It can become a chicken and egg - (look what we're giving up, look at the demands, we need to be "looked after" better, etc.)
(2) Fans? Jury very much out. Irish fans, and GAA fans, have proven that they love meaningful, important, big games. I remain deeply unconvinced that they will travel in the same numbers to round robin games that don't have the same significance. In theory, a qualifier tie between (for example) Offaly vs Cavan should draw a similar crowd to a Leinster championship tie between Laois and Longford - but in practice, that's not how it works out at all.
(3) GAA? Is that not what we're discussing here? Certainly I don't think it's as clear cut as "the GAA benefits from more games" as a statement of fact.

I think fans do want more games. There's been big crowds at many league and qualifier games, wasn't it 20K at Cavan and Dublin so I think there is clear evidence that fans will go to see matches between evenly matched teams who are trying to win the game. I think league games are proof positive that many division 1 or 2 games would get more than 20K if the league was taken more seriously.

I can't see how the GAA doesn't benefit from more IC games if we can accommodate them in a format that doesn't swamp the club game and I think we can with a more radical approach.

sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #106 on: October 12, 2017, 05:04:51 PM »
You seem to be missing my point Sid. Funding of those grounds is irrelevant. They are the COUNTY GROUNDS of those teams. Croke Park is not, and never was to my knowledge, the County Ground for Dublin. Sure that is shoved down our neck every time someone talks about home advantage. Even the tour of Croker is at pains to point that out, albeit the only teams that might get into Dublin's dressing room are Ard Mhaca and Aontroim.

We're spending a lot of time on this, but it's only an indication of the thinking. Let's get Dublin playing in Croker rather than Parnell. Why? Because we'll get bigger crowds and more money.
This is a bizarre line of argument.

So only Dublin should be barred from playing in a stadium which is in their county?

There were lots of Dublin club championship matches and county finals played in Croke Park over the years, by the way, certainly up to the 1980s.

Surely, to follow your argument, the Cummann na mBunscoil finals should be moved too? It's not the "county" ground, remember.

I don't think it's a bit bizarre, funnily enough. If you don't understand the concept of a county ground, versus the National stadium which happens to be in Dublin, then this line of discussion is over. But again, we are *constantly* told that this is not Dublin's home ground, so they should play in it, when they qualify to do so, like every other team in the country.

As regards Dublin GAA playing matches in there, and treating it like a county grounds, yes I think that is wrong. Why are they allowed do that?

As regards Cumann na mBunscoil finals,I wouldn't be pushed, but it does appear to be a bit cheeky if the Dublin County Board are just assuming it's for their own personal use. If it's our national stadium, and schools finals are allowed there, why don't we all lobby for a slot up there for our finals?
It's exactly the same concept with Clones.

Clones is the main provincial stadium, with the Ulster final always held there and lots of Ulster semi-finals held there.

Monaghan used to play their home championship matches in Castleblaney.

Then they switched to Clones when it was redeveloped in the mid 90s.

So, surely Castleblaney is their county ground, not Clones?

How many county grounds can a county have?

Or is just Dublin that can only have one?

I wouldn't have any problem with other counties staging their primary schools finals at Croke Park.

But I sure would have a problem with Dublin's being taken out.


« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 05:06:44 PM by sid waddell »

Zulu

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #107 on: October 12, 2017, 05:07:26 PM »

Lads, claiming this without any evidence makes it no truer. The super 8's was a response to the demands of the counties and the limitations they placed on Duffy. I doubt very much it would be what he would have proposed if he had a free hand.

Perhaps those of you who feel it was just a monetary decision could tell us how we could provide IC teams with more games, keep the provincials and not impact on clubs?

In excess of 20K people attend league games and most IC teams want to play there so should Dublin have to play in a 10K stadium when 20-30K want to go to the game and both teams want to play there?
Some evidence for you. 
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Man himself Mr Duffy recommend that the quarter-finals be replaced by two groups of four, playing off in round-robin format to increase those attendances figures.

Sorry what does that prove?

I think it's showing that more games does not mean more people attending on a per game basis. It just means more people through the gate in total, when compared to the pre-qualifier total. But the interest waned over the years, and attendances are dropping year on year.

the Super 8 will increase attendances on a superficial level, because there's an extra chunk of games.

But that's a multi-factorial thing AZ. I think people want to go to games but when it's between two 'losers' who may have been beaten comfortably in their provinces then the crowds suffer. Mayo fans went in huge numbers to their qualifiers as they believed in them, Carlow got great support with a bit of a run.

We seem to be one of the few sports in the world where some want less games, not more.

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #108 on: October 12, 2017, 05:08:52 PM »
Clones is the county ground of Monaghan.
Thurles is the county ground of Tipperary.
Pearse Stadium is the county ground of Galway.
Croke Park is not the county ground of Dublin.

If you want to have 2 or 3 county grounds, then away with you. As long as they are formally identified as county grounds (like Birr and Tullamore in Offaly) with the responsibility that comes with that, then fire ahead.

If Dublin want Croke Park to be officially their county ground, then let them lobby for that. Until then, it should be treated as the GAA always say it is, laughably, as a neutral ground, unaffiliated to any one county.

Sin é.

Cunny Funt

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #109 on: October 12, 2017, 05:09:32 PM »

Lads, claiming this without any evidence makes it no truer. The super 8's was a response to the demands of the counties and the limitations they placed on Duffy. I doubt very much it would be what he would have proposed if he had a free hand.

Perhaps those of you who feel it was just a monetary decision could tell us how we could provide IC teams with more games, keep the provincials and not impact on clubs?

In excess of 20K people attend league games and most IC teams want to play there so should Dublin have to play in a 10K stadium when 20-30K want to go to the game and both teams want to play there?
Some evidence for you. 
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Man himself Mr Duffy recommend that the quarter-finals be replaced by two groups of four, playing off in round-robin format to increase those attendances figures.

Sorry what does that prove?

I think it's showing that more games does not mean more people attending on a per game basis. It just means more people through the gate in total, when compared to the pre-qualifier total. But the interest waned over the years, and attendances are dropping year on year.

the Super 8 will increase attendances on a superficial level, because there's an extra chunk of games.
Nail on head again.

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2017, 05:11:37 PM »

Lads, claiming this without any evidence makes it no truer. The super 8's was a response to the demands of the counties and the limitations they placed on Duffy. I doubt very much it would be what he would have proposed if he had a free hand.

Perhaps those of you who feel it was just a monetary decision could tell us how we could provide IC teams with more games, keep the provincials and not impact on clubs?

In excess of 20K people attend league games and most IC teams want to play there so should Dublin have to play in a 10K stadium when 20-30K want to go to the game and both teams want to play there?
Some evidence for you. 
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Man himself Mr Duffy recommend that the quarter-finals be replaced by two groups of four, playing off in round-robin format to increase those attendances figures.

Sorry what does that prove?

I think it's showing that more games does not mean more people attending on a per game basis. It just means more people through the gate in total, when compared to the pre-qualifier total. But the interest waned over the years, and attendances are dropping year on year.

the Super 8 will increase attendances on a superficial level, because there's an extra chunk of games.

But that's a multi-factorial thing AZ. I think people want to go to games but when it's between two 'losers' who may have been beaten comfortably in their provinces then the crowds suffer. Mayo fans went in huge numbers to their qualifiers as they believed in them, Carlow got great support with a bit of a run.

We seem to be one of the few sports in the world where some want less games, not more.

I think any sport where the same players are being sought by multiple teams has cries for less games of one or the other. In soccer, the clubs want less International Games. In Rugby, they have to balance load or else play without their main players.

In the GAA, we have club x 2 and county x 1 for most of our county players, so something has to give. So far it's patently not the IC games.

trueblue1234

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2017, 05:13:20 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.
Is it a competitive advantage to Monaghan to have their county final and home league games in Clones given that all Ulster finals are also played there?

Are you saying that Monaghan should be barred from doing that?

Because you appear to be suggesting Dublin should be barred from playing home matches in Croke Park.

Clones is Monaghan's ground. Croke Park is not Dublin's.

Dublin's league matches should be in Parnell Park, and all games in the Leinster should be in provincial venues (neutral or home and home) until the Semi Finals at least.
Clones has had Ulster Council money pumped into it over the years. So why should Monaghan benefit (devil's advocate and all that)?!

Do you think the money to build Croke Park had nothing to do with Dublin and all those big gates Dublin have drawn over the years?

Should the new Casement Park be built, with NI government money, are you suggesting Antrim not be allowed play league games there?

Should Dublin draw Kildare or Meath in a Leinster quarter-final, are you suggesting these games be played outside Croke Park?

But it wasn't just Dublin's money. So Dublin should get to play there the same as everyone else. But using it as a home ground gives them a competitive advantage. There's no other way of looking at it.

You've just proved my point as regards Monaghan with Clones and Antrim with the new Casement Park.

And obviously I'm not arguing that those counties shouldn't be allowed to play in a ground which lies within their own county.

I didn't say that Dublin don't have an advantage over other teams when it comes to the championship because they're more familiar with Croke Park. Obviously they do.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to play their league games there.

They aren't grounds which lies within their county. They are the County Grounds for those counties. That's where CP and the Duds differ. It isn't their County ground. If allowing Dublin to play in CP gives them an advantage (Which we agree it does) then it shouldn't be allowed. It should be as simple as that. If Parnell doesn't have enough room to accommodate the league fans, then develop it. Don't hand Dublin another advantage. I don't expect this to change tbh. And there would be a down side to CP not getting as regular use. But it's a bit of a kick for other counties especially at the minute when Dublin are soaring that they get this added advantage as well.
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sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2017, 05:21:54 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.
Is it a competitive advantage to Monaghan to have their county final and home league games in Clones given that all Ulster finals are also played there?

Are you saying that Monaghan should be barred from doing that?

Because you appear to be suggesting Dublin should be barred from playing home matches in Croke Park.

Clones is Monaghan's ground. Croke Park is not Dublin's.

Dublin's league matches should be in Parnell Park, and all games in the Leinster should be in provincial venues (neutral or home and home) until the Semi Finals at least.
Clones has had Ulster Council money pumped into it over the years. So why should Monaghan benefit (devil's advocate and all that)?!

Do you think the money to build Croke Park had nothing to do with Dublin and all those big gates Dublin have drawn over the years?

Should the new Casement Park be built, with NI government money, are you suggesting Antrim not be allowed play league games there?

Should Dublin draw Kildare or Meath in a Leinster quarter-final, are you suggesting these games be played outside Croke Park?

But it wasn't just Dublin's money. So Dublin should get to play there the same as everyone else. But using it as a home ground gives them a competitive advantage. There's no other way of looking at it.

You've just proved my point as regards Monaghan with Clones and Antrim with the new Casement Park.

And obviously I'm not arguing that those counties shouldn't be allowed to play in a ground which lies within their own county.

I didn't say that Dublin don't have an advantage over other teams when it comes to the championship because they're more familiar with Croke Park. Obviously they do.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to play their league games there.

They aren't grounds which lies within their county. They are the County Grounds for those counties. That's where CP and the Duds differ. It isn't their County ground. If allowing Dublin to play in CP gives them an advantage (Which we agree it does) then it shouldn't be allowed. It should be as simple as that. If Parnell doesn't have enough room to accommodate the league fans, then develop it. Don't hand Dublin another advantage. I don't expect this to change tbh. And there would be a down side to CP not getting as regular use. But it's a bit of a kick for other counties especially at the minute when Dublin are soaring that they get this added advantage as well.
Casement Park is being built to be the main stadium in Ulster.

It isn't being built to be Antrim's county ground.

This is really tiresome.

Only in the GAA would you get people telling others they can't play a home game in a stadium which lies within their boundaries.

If Dublin didn't play there, there would be people complaining that Croke Park was a white elephant.

Some people are never happy.

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #113 on: October 12, 2017, 05:24:29 PM »
Raméis. It's the Dubs and the GAA who constantly tell us Croker is not their home venue. And then it is treated as if it were. Which is it?

seafoid

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #114 on: October 12, 2017, 05:27:54 PM »
The GAA should be fighting for a new economic system that supports wages rather than asset bubbles
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Zulu

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #115 on: October 12, 2017, 05:34:35 PM »

Lads, claiming this without any evidence makes it no truer. The super 8's was a response to the demands of the counties and the limitations they placed on Duffy. I doubt very much it would be what he would have proposed if he had a free hand.

Perhaps those of you who feel it was just a monetary decision could tell us how we could provide IC teams with more games, keep the provincials and not impact on clubs?

In excess of 20K people attend league games and most IC teams want to play there so should Dublin have to play in a 10K stadium when 20-30K want to go to the game and both teams want to play there?
Some evidence for you. 
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Man himself Mr Duffy recommend that the quarter-finals be replaced by two groups of four, playing off in round-robin format to increase those attendances figures.

Sorry what does that prove?

I think it's showing that more games does not mean more people attending on a per game basis. It just means more people through the gate in total, when compared to the pre-qualifier total. But the interest waned over the years, and attendances are dropping year on year.

the Super 8 will increase attendances on a superficial level, because there's an extra chunk of games.

But that's a multi-factorial thing AZ. I think people want to go to games but when it's between two 'losers' who may have been beaten comfortably in their provinces then the crowds suffer. Mayo fans went in huge numbers to their qualifiers as they believed in them, Carlow got great support with a bit of a run.

We seem to be one of the few sports in the world where some want less games, not more.

I think any sport where the same players are being sought by multiple teams has cries for less games of one or the other. In soccer, the clubs want less International Games. In Rugby, they have to balance load or else play without their main players.

In the GAA, we have club x 2 and county x 1 for most of our county players, so something has to give. So far it's patently not the IC games.

True, which is why I think the decision on the U20's is such a great one. We need to reduce the number of teams a player can play on so that all players can play more often. I said this before but we can have our cake and eat it if we reduce the number of teams you can play for. A player should only be able to play one code and one level at IC but they should all have plenty of games (10+ perhaps). Have an IC season and finish it then the club season can start or clubs can play leagues with reduced numbers during IC.

I just don't see more IC games as being the problem and I think we need this for promotion of our sport, finance generation and giving very talented players a level to aim for where they can test themselves against other high level players.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 05:37:37 PM by Zulu »

Eamonnca1

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #116 on: October 12, 2017, 05:35:58 PM »

However he acted as if he believed that the move to semi (or full) professionalism in the GAA was inevitable, and that his job was to steer the bobsled downhill, because there was no point trying to stop it.

He oversaw complete and utter capitulation to the GPA agenda, and consequently has made it incredibly difficult for the next occupant of the role to change that trajectory. To give the GPA such power and resource without any level of accountability or oversight strikes me as completely counter to the ideals of the GAA, and it will be very hard to unwind. I firmly believe that in the future we're going to have an Angela Kerins/REHAB style moment within the GPA when somebody lifts the lid on the finances in that organisation, and that has been facilitated by the GAA's petrified stance in any sort of face off with that body.

I'd also broadly fall in line with AZOffaly's view, that he often saw revenue generation as a worthy goal in itself, rather than a necessary aspect to fund the promotion of all gaelic games across the entire country. Again, I've no doubt that the GPA approves of this too, since it makes sense to fatten the calf as much as possible before killing it.


Ultimately however, I believe that this approach didn't emanate from any will to do harm to the GAA, but far more a sense that we're on the cusp of a professional era, and that all that it was in his power to do was to manage the transition as much as possible.

I agree with you on the lack of oversight of the GPA, but on the other hand it's better to have them inside the tent pissing out than outside pissing in. "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" type of thing. I feel like the GPA have been as close to neutralized as they can be for now, but if they were out on their own and still posting belligerent press releases attacking the GAA I feel like we'd be in much worse shape.

My only gripe is that the vast majority of criticism gets heaped on the GAA because of its willingness to accept big corporate money (even though the vast majority of it goes to a good cause, namely reinvestment in the grass roots) while the GPA openly brags about the million dollars they're going to make from their "star-studded" fundraisers in NY, we know they're going to pocket the money, and nobody seems to say boo to them. What's up with that?

Syferus

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #117 on: October 12, 2017, 05:41:15 PM »
Zulu sees a chart that shows attendances continue to fall even as the economy is nearly fully recovered from the recession (so one cannot write it off as outside factors at play) and still holds fast to his position the Super 8 wasn't entirely a device to paper over a crack that is more of a chasm now. In 2018 whoever replaces Duffy will release a press release advertising a rise in attendances and revenue, which will then be trumpeted on the back page of the Indo and Times, everyone happy to pretend everything is rosy as a hollow few Euro are added to the bank balance in the short term.

Zulu's beloved Dublin may be sweeping up all before them, but the rest of us are losing interest even bothering to attend, nevermind actually play. Duffy has left the GAA at one of the darkest points in its history and has contributed handsomely to that position - you can't even make a point he was a neutral force in reaching his situation of haves and have nots and a general public whose interest has long been on the wane.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 05:43:48 PM by Syferus »

Rossfan

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #118 on: October 12, 2017, 05:53:46 PM »
Darkest point in GAA history????
FFS is that "history" since you were born or what?
Read the actual history of  the GAA sometime.
1890s were pretty dark ;)
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sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #119 on: October 12, 2017, 05:54:53 PM »
The evidence that my eyes have seen tells me attendances have risen considerably this year, under the exact same format as last year.

But that won't suit the agenda of some.