Author Topic: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down  (Read 2874 times)

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #75 on: October 12, 2017, 03:28:05 PM »
Acceptable monetisation is when you never lose sight that you are raising money to support the games, not trying to arse around with the games just to raise more money. If the bottom line drives strategic thinking, then it will influence tactical decisions.

With all due  respect for others' opinions on this, my feeling is that the PRIMARY driver behind the super 8 is financial. More games, bigger attendences and more money. I don't believe it was done as an attempt to help the club season in any way, and I don't believe it was done in a bid to make the All Ireland series more open in any way.

I also believe the next proposal will be around a champions league style format, with even more games being played.

I believe Dublin playing all their home games in the League is a decision based on financial reasons, rather than what's good for the games.

I also believe that Duffy and the other lads genuinely believe this is in the GAA's best interests. I wouldn't doubt that for a moment. I just question it when the tail starts to wag the dog.

Rossfan

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #76 on: October 12, 2017, 03:42:20 PM »
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/the-best-sports-administrator-by-some-distance-460748.html

Compared to Nicky Brennan, my ma is a better sports administrator FFS!
So what did Nicky Brennan do wrong?
The man was a top dog in the very successful Glanbia.

Good adult  debate Sid and the 2 Midlands bucks.
Could I ask AZ and Shark how they'd solve what they see as problems between Club/County  or do to rectify what they see as wrongs all instigated by Duffy ( who must be the subject of envious  glances from Kim Jong Un) and/or the Top brass in HQ???
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 03:48:07 PM by Rossfan »
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Lone Shark

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #77 on: October 12, 2017, 03:43:01 PM »
But there is absolutely a need for an organisation like the GPA. And it has to be administered by professional staff.

Yes, and yes. However the GPA should be operating on the basis that they decide on a plan that they want to implement, whether that be third level scholarships, hardship funds, professional career development or whatever, and they go to the GAA and look for funding, advocate, and then central council makes the decision on where that fits into the heirarchy of needs, relative to infrastructure projects in Waterford, Games development officers in Longford and hurling promotion in Derry.

It should not be the case (but is, because PD signed off on it) that the GPA receives a huge chunk of money out of the GAA's rights income, with no instruction as to how to spend it, so it can all be spent on junkets for the lads over in America. How in the name of jaysus did that farcical schyte in Fenway Park serve anyone, except to be a great big boondoggle?

Moreover, nobody in the GAA seems to know what Dessie Farrell was paid, what went into his pension fund, or likewise for Dermot Earley? And I'm not saying that a role like that should pay peanuts, by all means a salary of somewhere in the €80,000 range would seem about right. But if that's all they're getting, why is that not on record, like most high level sporting salaries?

Different people have different ideas about championship formats. Lots of people who claim to have the best interests of the GAA at heart (hello Joe Brolly) want a two tier or a three tier championship format. That to me sounds like a great way to kill off many county teams. That's actual elitism, from the very people who claim to be against it.

In administrative terms, you describe a problem which lies at club and county level and a problem of the calibre of person involved, not a problem at the national administrative level.

Anybody's allowed suggest a championship structure change - but if the GAA was a proper, grassroots-led democracy, that change would come from the bottom up - not the top down. What club asked for a super 8? None. Can any person on this board, all of whom I assume are club members, or supporters at least, say that they heard of the Super 8 before Ard Comhairle proposed it? Of course not, because it was a suggested solution to a non-problem. The only thing it does is give more games, more promotion, more sponsorship opportunities to the best teams, and literally nobody asked for that, bar a few media heads who want a lot more Dublin vs Kerry and a lot less Carlow vs Wicklow.

The reference to a 2 or 3 tier championship is a straw man - nobody here mentioned it, PD hasn't mentioned it, it's not being discussed. Of course it would be elitist and wrong, but you're trying to shift the goalposts now.

And I take huge issue with the "calibre of person" comment. Keeping a club going is incredibly difficult, and time consuming. I'm a very minor member of the committee in my club, I do a lot less than most due to my work, and I don't have time to be considering motions for Congress that don't affect us.

Many of these motions aren't explained, aren't canvassed, knock on effects aren't explored, and that absolutely is a national issue.



Is round robin or back door at club championship level not "elitist" too? Why is having more games "elitist" at county level but not at club level?

You say "nobody wants to go back to straight knock-out", either at club or county level, but yet they want those games to cut across each other's seasons.

"Fitting games in" (at club level) is the operative phrase here, and that's a fool's game. The answer is to completely separate county and club championship seasons.

Moving the All-Ireland finals forward helps in this regard, but you could easily argue they should be moved forward further, to the end of July or the start of August, if this problem is to be fully addressed.


I never said that it was a bad thing that there are more games, at club or county. My point is that the summer, as we all learned it in school, is clearly defined - it's May, June and July. The county scene has devoured those three months, to the point that some counties get some club games in there, others don't, and that's not going to change now. Yes, I agree with two distinct seasons, but then why all this April fuss? Surely just finish the Intercounty in July as opposed to August, and let the county games get played in April as well. JAnuary to June for Intercounty, with AI semis and finals in July. Club from July to November - that would be far more fair.

I take your point that you're in agreement with this, but the topic up for debate here is Paraic Duffy's tenure, and he's not on that page at all.

I'm not really sure where you're going with the Donegal/Leitrim comparison. Donegal isn't exactly an economic powerhouse. There are few counties which are. You argument appears to have either a problem with economics and the jobs market, or is one where you advocate the actual standards of the games should drop across the board. That isn't going to happen because players won't let it happen.

There is no system and no format under which the likes of Leitrim will thrive at inter-county level. Economics and population will always see to that. That's the fact of the county system on which the whole of the GAA is based.

This goes back to what I said earlier - I have no problem accepting that things are naturally progressing down a certain path, but that doesn't mean you just shrug your shoulders and let it be. Of course Leitrim will never be on an even footing with other teams, but surely you still try and promote that? I interviewed one county player last year for a local paper and he confirmed to me that he gave up a career in law to become a teacher, all because he was told by senior management that there was no way he could pursue a legal career and an intercounty football one side by side, so he had to "choose what he wanted more". That man had zero interest in teaching, at least when I spoke to him, but he wanted to play intercounty, so there it is.

Even if there's nothing that Duffy, or the GAA generally, can do to move things back the other way, you have to try - and there are a myriad of ways of doing that. You can balance the scale financially, you can actively enforce the amateur ethos, you can add transparency to all development officer appointments, and lots more. You'll never be able to stop Johnny's Menswear from giving Jimmy footballer a free suit in exchange for a tweet and an instagram post, but that doesn't mean that you don't throw the smaller counties a bone and at least TRY to do something, surely. 

Syferus

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #78 on: October 12, 2017, 03:43:30 PM »
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/the-best-sports-administrator-by-some-distance-460748.html

Compared to Nicky Brennan, my ma is a better sports administrator FFS!
So what did Nicky Brennan do wrong?
The man was a top dog in the very successful Glanbia.

What exactly does that have to do with the GAA?

sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #79 on: October 12, 2017, 03:47:33 PM »
Acceptable monetisation is when you never lose sight that you are raising money to support the games, not trying to arse around with the games just to raise more money. If the bottom line drives strategic thinking, then it will influence tactical decisions.

With all due  respect for others' opinions on this, my feeling is that the PRIMARY driver behind the super 8 is financial. More games, bigger attendences and more money. I don't believe it was done as an attempt to help the club season in any way, and I don't believe it was done in a bid to make the All Ireland series more open in any way.

I also believe the next proposal will be around a champions league style format, with even more games being played.

I believe Dublin playing all their home games in the League is a decision based on financial reasons, rather than what's good for the games.

I also believe that Duffy and the other lads genuinely believe this is in the GAA's best interests. I wouldn't doubt that for a moment. I just question it when the tail starts to wag the dog.

This "arseing" around with the games, as you call it, began in 1997 when the hurling championship format was changed.

The championship format has never been designed to make it "open".  Provincial championships, some of which are much more competitive than others, wouldn't exist otherwise.

The only format you can have that would maximise "openness" is a 32 team open draw knockout format, like the FA Cup.

You could run that off in five weeks.

Any other format will not maximise a championship's "openness".

But there is a general agreement that whatever approach should be taken, that is not it, because there needs to be a balance struck between training and games, and the GAA has to maximise its showpiece competitions in terms of media exposure, because, like it or not, the GAA is competing against professional sports in this regard, and yes, money.

Of course Dublin play their home league games at Croke Park for financial reasons. Why shouldn't they? Croke Park is in Dublin. It allows more people to come to the games.  And that's exactly where they played their league games up to and including 1995. I didn't hear anybody complaining about that then.

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #80 on: October 12, 2017, 03:55:07 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.

Cunny Funt

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #81 on: October 12, 2017, 04:00:13 PM »

But spare me the begrudgers comment sligoman2. I take offence at that. I begrudge nothing. I love the IC game, I love football, I love hurling and I love the club scene. Our clubs are struggling in my opinion, in terms of games and in terms of demands and availability of county players. In dual counties, the problem is magnified. I accept we need revenue generation to keep the club game alive too. So I'm not 'anti' IC. I am concerned that the drive to maximise the IC revenue streams is having an unintended knock on impact, and I'm concerned that the new changes will make that even more difficult for clubs , especially in dual counties.

I don't think my fears are unreasonable.

He can spare us all on the begrudgers nonsene comment. Nail on head with that post couldn't agree more.



my feeling is that the PRIMARY driver behind the super 8 is financial. More games, bigger attendences and more money. I don't believe it was done as an attempt to help the club season in any way, and I don't believe it was done in a bid to make the All Ireland series more open in any way.

I also believe the next proposal will be around a champions league style format, with even more games being played.

I believe Dublin playing all their home games in the League is a decision based on financial reasons, rather than what's good for the games.

I also believe that Duffy and the other lads genuinely believe this is in the GAA's best interests. I wouldn't doubt that for a moment. I just question it when the tail starts to wag the dog.

Super 8 was brought in because attendances have been dropping. Its financial driven without a doubt and once that grows stale the next money making exercise (CL style format) is sure to replace it.

johnneycool

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #82 on: October 12, 2017, 04:09:01 PM »
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/the-best-sports-administrator-by-some-distance-460748.html

Compared to Nicky Brennan, my ma is a better sports administrator FFS!
So what did Nicky Brennan do wrong?
The man was a top dog in the very successful Glanbia.

Good adult  debate Sid and the 2 Midlands bucks.
Could I ask AZ and Shark how they'd solve what they see as problems between Club/County  or do to rectify what they see as wrongs all instigated by Duffy ( who must be the subject of envious  glances from Kim Jong Un) and/or the Top brass in HQ???

Is Glanbia a sports organisation?

sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #83 on: October 12, 2017, 04:13:05 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.
Is it a competitive advantage to Monaghan to have their county final and home league games in Clones given that all Ulster finals are also played there?

Are you saying that Monaghan should be barred from doing that?

Because you appear to be suggesting Dublin should be barred from playing home matches in Croke Park.

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #84 on: October 12, 2017, 04:20:46 PM »
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/the-best-sports-administrator-by-some-distance-460748.html

Compared to Nicky Brennan, my ma is a better sports administrator FFS!
So what did Nicky Brennan do wrong?
The man was a top dog in the very successful Glanbia.

Good adult  debate Sid and the 2 Midlands bucks.
Could I ask AZ and Shark how they'd solve what they see as problems between Club/County  or do to rectify what they see as wrongs all instigated by Duffy ( who must be the subject of envious  glances from Kim Jong Un) and/or the Top brass in HQ???

Sorry Rossfan, I missed this.

Firstly you're putting words in my mouth. Kim Jong Un? Really? I've already said that I think Duffy and co are doing what they believe is right in order to make sure the GAA is as profitable as possible, to reinvest the money.

I do like the U20 change, particularly that senior players can't play U20, so he's not all bad :)

Now, what would I do? I've said before that I would tie the league to a seeded championship, and play the championship off quickly in a straight knockout formula.

I'd enforce a rule that all Counties MUST allow club games, with county players, up to 7 days before the next county game. No 13 day rule.

I'd enforce a cap on expenditure on County Preparation, and I'd pay Auditors to enforce it.

I'd implement a standard development and coaching model, and fund it centrally, on a pro-rata basis. This money to be spent on coaching and games, not diverted into 'expenses'.

I'd let the Dubs play their home games in Parnell Park in the League, and I'd have every game up to the Semi Finals of the Leinster Championship (or the last 8 if open draw) at provincial venues.


Just a few things.

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #85 on: October 12, 2017, 04:22:19 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.
Is it a competitive advantage to Monaghan to have their county final and home league games in Clones given that all Ulster finals are also played there?

Are you saying that Monaghan should be barred from doing that?

Because you appear to be suggesting Dublin should be barred from playing home matches in Croke Park.

Clones is Monaghan's ground. Croke Park is not Dublin's.

Dublin's league matches should be in Parnell Park, and all games in the Leinster should be in provincial venues (neutral or home and home) until the Semi Finals at least.


Zulu

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #86 on: October 12, 2017, 04:23:52 PM »

But spare me the begrudgers comment sligoman2. I take offence at that. I begrudge nothing. I love the IC game, I love football, I love hurling and I love the club scene. Our clubs are struggling in my opinion, in terms of games and in terms of demands and availability of county players. In dual counties, the problem is magnified. I accept we need revenue generation to keep the club game alive too. So I'm not 'anti' IC. I am concerned that the drive to maximise the IC revenue streams is having an unintended knock on impact, and I'm concerned that the new changes will make that even more difficult for clubs , especially in dual counties.

I don't think my fears are unreasonable.

He can spare us all on the begrudgers nonsene comment. Nail on head with that post couldn't agree more.



my feeling is that the PRIMARY driver behind the super 8 is financial. More games, bigger attendences and more money. I don't believe it was done as an attempt to help the club season in any way, and I don't believe it was done in a bid to make the All Ireland series more open in any way.

I also believe the next proposal will be around a champions league style format, with even more games being played.

I believe Dublin playing all their home games in the League is a decision based on financial reasons, rather than what's good for the games.

I also believe that Duffy and the other lads genuinely believe this is in the GAA's best interests. I wouldn't doubt that for a moment. I just question it when the tail starts to wag the dog.

Super 8 was brought in because attendances have been dropping. Its financial driven without a doubt and once that grows stale the next money making exercise (CL style format) is sure to replace it.

Lads, claiming this without any evidence makes it no truer. The super 8's was a response to the demands of the counties and the limitations they placed on Duffy. I doubt very much it would be what he would have proposed if he had a free hand.

Perhaps those of you who feel it was just a monetary decision could tell us how we could provide IC teams with more games, keep the provincials and not impact on clubs?

In excess of 20K people attend league games and most IC teams want to play there so should Dublin have to play in a 10K stadium when 20-30K want to go to the game and both teams want to play there?

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #87 on: October 12, 2017, 04:24:54 PM »
Zulu, serious question. Why do inter county teams need more games? It appears to be a truism, but I can't figure out why the Panacea is more games, more games. They have a 7 game league campaign, and at least 2 championship games.  Why is it accepted that we want more games?
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 04:27:10 PM by AZOffaly »

sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #88 on: October 12, 2017, 04:28:33 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.
Is it a competitive advantage to Monaghan to have their county final and home league games in Clones given that all Ulster finals are also played there?

Are you saying that Monaghan should be barred from doing that?

Because you appear to be suggesting Dublin should be barred from playing home matches in Croke Park.

Clones is Monaghan's ground. Croke Park is not Dublin's.

Dublin's league matches should be in Parnell Park, and all games in the Leinster should be in provincial venues (neutral or home and home) until the Semi Finals at least.
Clones has had Ulster Council money pumped into it over the years. So why should Monaghan benefit (devil's advocate and all that)?!

Do you think the money to build Croke Park had nothing to do with Dublin and all those big gates Dublin have drawn over the years?

Should the new Casement Park be built, with NI government money, are you suggesting Antrim not be allowed play league games there?

Should Dublin draw Kildare or Meath in a Leinster quarter-final, are you suggesting these games be played outside Croke Park?


Lone Shark

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #89 on: October 12, 2017, 04:30:00 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.
Is it a competitive advantage to Monaghan to have their county final and home league games in Clones given that all Ulster finals are also played there?

Are you saying that Monaghan should be barred from doing that?

Because you appear to be suggesting Dublin should be barred from playing home matches in Croke Park.

Straw man, straw man, straw man!
It seems clear to me anyway (at the risk of being seen to just wade in out of county loyalty) that AZ is using that as one of many examples of where a decision has been taken that is financially motivated. Now as it happens, I personally would be happy to see Dublin play league games in Croke Park, because if you can get 20,000 people into a GAA game, any GAA game, then you should certainly do so, I hate the idea of any supporters being un-necessarily locked out.

However that doesn't change the fact that many of the decisions that have been taken have no such basis - and chief among those is the Super 8. If you want to bring in more games for counties, bring them in for everyone, not just the big teams that need them least. It is impossible to justify that decision on any grounds other than monetary.


And yes, you are correct that there has always been a financial motivation, and there needs to be. But that should never be seen as the NUMBER ONE priority, and right now, there are a lot of Paraic Duffy decisions that come across that way.