Author Topic: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down  (Read 2808 times)

sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #90 on: October 12, 2017, 04:31:41 PM »
What really bugs me is articles like this, proclaiming "the death of hurling". Pure, unadulterated shit.

Surprise, surprise, it's Eamonn Sweeney.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/eamonn-sweeney-lamentable-laughable-ludicrous-argument-for-hurling-restructure-ticks-all-the-boxes-36206429.html

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #91 on: October 12, 2017, 04:32:39 PM »
You seem to be missing my point Sid. Funding of those grounds is irrelevant. They are the COUNTY GROUNDS of those teams. Croke Park is not, and never was to my knowledge, the County Ground for Dublin. Sure that is shoved down our neck every time someone talks about home advantage. Even the tour of Croker is at pains to point that out, albeit the only teams that might get into Dublin's dressing room are Ard Mhaca and Aontroim.

We're spending a lot of time on this, but it's only an indication of the thinking. Let's get Dublin playing in Croker rather than Parnell. Why? Because we'll get bigger crowds and more money.

Zulu

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #92 on: October 12, 2017, 04:33:10 PM »
Ok, are you saying they don't? That's fine, I've no issue with anyone who feels that way. I think we do need to have plenty of high profile games to promote our sport in an increasingly saturated TV sports environment. I also think that any team should have a decent number of games to training.

I was listening to a podcast regarding the new hurling format and all the players on the show said they wanted more games. So players want more games, fans want more games and the GAA benefits with more games. The issue is things like the provincials and having two separate competitions (league and championship). I see no reason we can't give IC players more competitive games in a shorter timeframe.

trueblue1234

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #93 on: October 12, 2017, 04:38:59 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.
Is it a competitive advantage to Monaghan to have their county final and home league games in Clones given that all Ulster finals are also played there?

Are you saying that Monaghan should be barred from doing that?

Because you appear to be suggesting Dublin should be barred from playing home matches in Croke Park.

Clones is Monaghan's ground. Croke Park is not Dublin's.

Dublin's league matches should be in Parnell Park, and all games in the Leinster should be in provincial venues (neutral or home and home) until the Semi Finals at least.
Clones has had Ulster Council money pumped into it over the years. So why should Monaghan benefit (devil's advocate and all that)?!

Do you think the money to build Croke Park had nothing to do with Dublin and all those big gates Dublin have drawn over the years?

Should the new Casement Park be built, with NI government money, are you suggesting Antrim not be allowed play league games there?

Should Dublin draw Kildare or Meath in a Leinster quarter-final, are you suggesting these games be played outside Croke Park?

But it wasn't just Dublin's money. So Dublin should get to play there the same as everyone else. But using it as a home ground gives them a competitive advantage. There's no other way of looking at it.
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sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #94 on: October 12, 2017, 04:40:12 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.
Is it a competitive advantage to Monaghan to have their county final and home league games in Clones given that all Ulster finals are also played there?

Are you saying that Monaghan should be barred from doing that?

Because you appear to be suggesting Dublin should be barred from playing home matches in Croke Park.

Straw man, straw man, straw man!
It seems clear to me anyway (at the risk of being seen to just wade in out of county loyalty) that AZ is using that as one of many examples of where a decision has been taken that is financially motivated. Now as it happens, I personally would be happy to see Dublin play league games in Croke Park, because if you can get 20,000 people into a GAA game, any GAA game, then you should certainly do so, I hate the idea of any supporters being un-necessarily locked out.

However that doesn't change the fact that many of the decisions that have been taken have no such basis - and chief among those is the Super 8. If you want to bring in more games for counties, bring them in for everyone, not just the big teams that need them least. It is impossible to justify that decision on any grounds other than monetary.


And yes, you are correct that there has always been a financial motivation, and there needs to be. But that should never be seen as the NUMBER ONE priority, and right now, there are a lot of Paraic Duffy decisions that come across that way.
The examples of Monaghan and Antrim re Clones and the new Casement Park are not straw men.

They're examples of stadiums which were built or are planned to be built with large amounts of other people's money.

If one is against Dublin playing home league games in Croke Park on this basis, one has to be against Monaghan and Antrim playing in Clones or the new Casement Park on the same basis.

And as I've already said, where was the problem other people had with Dublin playing league games in Croke Park up to 1995?

I agree that if a round robin stage is introduced, it should be at the start of the championship rather than at the quarter-final stage, but then you'd have people saying that it rules out a shock by a minnow or effectively bars the likes of Fermanagh and Leitrim from ever having a chance to win their provinces.

There is no format that will keep people happy - in fact there is probably no format that will keep a majority of people happy.


Owenmoresider

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #95 on: October 12, 2017, 04:45:04 PM »
The irony with using Monaghan as an example is that they have played a few of their home league games away from Clones in recent years, in Castleblayney, Scotstown, even Inniskeen I seem to recall.

sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #96 on: October 12, 2017, 04:46:07 PM »
You seem to be missing my point Sid. Funding of those grounds is irrelevant. They are the COUNTY GROUNDS of those teams. Croke Park is not, and never was to my knowledge, the County Ground for Dublin. Sure that is shoved down our neck every time someone talks about home advantage. Even the tour of Croker is at pains to point that out, albeit the only teams that might get into Dublin's dressing room are Ard Mhaca and Aontroim.

We're spending a lot of time on this, but it's only an indication of the thinking. Let's get Dublin playing in Croker rather than Parnell. Why? Because we'll get bigger crowds and more money.
This is a bizarre line of argument.

So only Dublin should be barred from playing in a stadium which is in their county?

There were lots of Dublin club championship matches and county finals played in Croke Park over the years, by the way, certainly up to the 1980s.

Surely, to follow your argument, the Cummann na mBunscoil finals should be moved too? It's not the "county" ground, remember.




Cunny Funt

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #97 on: October 12, 2017, 04:50:10 PM »

Lads, claiming this without any evidence makes it no truer. The super 8's was a response to the demands of the counties and the limitations they placed on Duffy. I doubt very much it would be what he would have proposed if he had a free hand.

Perhaps those of you who feel it was just a monetary decision could tell us how we could provide IC teams with more games, keep the provincials and not impact on clubs?

In excess of 20K people attend league games and most IC teams want to play there so should Dublin have to play in a 10K stadium when 20-30K want to go to the game and both teams want to play there?
Some evidence for you. 
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Man himself Mr Duffy recommend that the quarter-finals be replaced by two groups of four, playing off in round-robin format to increase those attendances figures.   


Lone Shark

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #98 on: October 12, 2017, 04:53:05 PM »
I was listening to a podcast regarding the new hurling format and all the players on the show said they wanted more games. So players want more games, fans want more games and the GAA benefits with more games. The issue is things like the provincials and having two separate competitions (league and championship). I see no reason we can't give IC players more competitive games in a shorter timeframe.

(1) Players? Yes, they do - albeit I would question their motivation, in some cases. It can become a chicken and egg - (look what we're giving up, look at the demands, we need to be "looked after" better, etc.)
(2) Fans? Jury very much out. Irish fans, and GAA fans, have proven that they love meaningful, important, big games. I remain deeply unconvinced that they will travel in the same numbers to round robin games that don't have the same significance. In theory, a qualifier tie between (for example) Offaly vs Cavan should draw a similar crowd to a Leinster championship tie between Laois and Longford - but in practice, that's not how it works out at all.
(3) GAA? Is that not what we're discussing here? Certainly I don't think it's as clear cut as "the GAA benefits from more games" as a statement of fact. 

sid waddell

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #99 on: October 12, 2017, 04:53:29 PM »
Croke Park, we are constantly told when it suits, is not Dublin's home ground. Why do they play home league games in the National Stadium? That is absolutely a competitive advantage for them, and it is a decision which confers that advantage for a financial reason.

It may not matter a squat in the grand scheme of things, but it may, and it's a decision where the driving force was financial rather than games based.

The Super 8 motivation is around money, it's primary interest is not in whether this is good for the games or not.
Is it a competitive advantage to Monaghan to have their county final and home league games in Clones given that all Ulster finals are also played there?

Are you saying that Monaghan should be barred from doing that?

Because you appear to be suggesting Dublin should be barred from playing home matches in Croke Park.

Clones is Monaghan's ground. Croke Park is not Dublin's.

Dublin's league matches should be in Parnell Park, and all games in the Leinster should be in provincial venues (neutral or home and home) until the Semi Finals at least.
Clones has had Ulster Council money pumped into it over the years. So why should Monaghan benefit (devil's advocate and all that)?!

Do you think the money to build Croke Park had nothing to do with Dublin and all those big gates Dublin have drawn over the years?

Should the new Casement Park be built, with NI government money, are you suggesting Antrim not be allowed play league games there?

Should Dublin draw Kildare or Meath in a Leinster quarter-final, are you suggesting these games be played outside Croke Park?

But it wasn't just Dublin's money. So Dublin should get to play there the same as everyone else. But using it as a home ground gives them a competitive advantage. There's no other way of looking at it.

You've just proved my point as regards Monaghan with Clones and Antrim with the new Casement Park.

And obviously I'm not arguing that those counties shouldn't be allowed to play in a ground which lies within their own county.

I didn't say that Dublin don't have an advantage over other teams when it comes to the championship because they're more familiar with Croke Park. Obviously they do.

That doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to play their league games there.




seafoid

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #100 on: October 12, 2017, 04:54:59 PM »

Lads, claiming this without any evidence makes it no truer. The super 8's was a response to the demands of the counties and the limitations they placed on Duffy. I doubt very much it would be what he would have proposed if he had a free hand.

Perhaps those of you who feel it was just a monetary decision could tell us how we could provide IC teams with more games, keep the provincials and not impact on clubs?

In excess of 20K people attend league games and most IC teams want to play there so should Dublin have to play in a 10K stadium when 20-30K want to go to the game and both teams want to play there?
Some evidence for you. 
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Man himself Mr Duffy recommend that the quarter-finals be replaced by two groups of four, playing off in round-robin format to increase those attendances figures.
Thosé numbers are shocking.
Emigration post crash and a dead football championship are probably the main reasons.

The four 2017 provincial finals had an average winning margin of 0-9, the four quarterfinals concluded with an average margin of 0-15, and the semi-finals’ concluding average was 0-9.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2017, 04:56:42 PM by seafoid »
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AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #101 on: October 12, 2017, 04:56:06 PM »
You seem to be missing my point Sid. Funding of those grounds is irrelevant. They are the COUNTY GROUNDS of those teams. Croke Park is not, and never was to my knowledge, the County Ground for Dublin. Sure that is shoved down our neck every time someone talks about home advantage. Even the tour of Croker is at pains to point that out, albeit the only teams that might get into Dublin's dressing room are Ard Mhaca and Aontroim.

We're spending a lot of time on this, but it's only an indication of the thinking. Let's get Dublin playing in Croker rather than Parnell. Why? Because we'll get bigger crowds and more money.
This is a bizarre line of argument.

So only Dublin should be barred from playing in a stadium which is in their county?

There were lots of Dublin club championship matches and county finals played in Croke Park over the years, by the way, certainly up to the 1980s.

Surely, to follow your argument, the Cummann na mBunscoil finals should be moved too? It's not the "county" ground, remember.

I don't think it's a bit bizarre, funnily enough. If you don't understand the concept of a county ground, versus the National stadium which happens to be in Dublin, then this line of discussion is over. But again, we are *constantly* told that this is not Dublin's home ground, so they should play in it, when they qualify to do so, like every other team in the country.

As regards Dublin GAA playing matches in there, and treating it like a county grounds, yes I think that is wrong. Why are they allowed do that?

As regards Cumann na mBunscoil finals,I wouldn't be pushed, but it does appear to be a bit cheeky if the Dublin County Board are just assuming it's for their own personal use. If it's our national stadium, and schools finals are allowed there, why don't we all lobby for a slot up there for our finals?

Zulu

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #102 on: October 12, 2017, 04:57:40 PM »

Lads, claiming this without any evidence makes it no truer. The super 8's was a response to the demands of the counties and the limitations they placed on Duffy. I doubt very much it would be what he would have proposed if he had a free hand.

Perhaps those of you who feel it was just a monetary decision could tell us how we could provide IC teams with more games, keep the provincials and not impact on clubs?

In excess of 20K people attend league games and most IC teams want to play there so should Dublin have to play in a 10K stadium when 20-30K want to go to the game and both teams want to play there?
Some evidence for you. 
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Man himself Mr Duffy recommend that the quarter-finals be replaced by two groups of four, playing off in round-robin format to increase those attendances figures.

Sorry what does that prove?

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #103 on: October 12, 2017, 04:58:09 PM »
Anyway, we've had several topics on this, and it's clear there's not really any agreement to be had so there's no point flogging it. The topic was about Duffy's tenure, and again, I see him as a decent man, with a clear focus on doing what he thinks is best, which is maximising the revenue for the GAA.

AZOffaly

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Re: Paraic Duffy to Stand Down
« Reply #104 on: October 12, 2017, 05:00:45 PM »

Lads, claiming this without any evidence makes it no truer. The super 8's was a response to the demands of the counties and the limitations they placed on Duffy. I doubt very much it would be what he would have proposed if he had a free hand.

Perhaps those of you who feel it was just a monetary decision could tell us how we could provide IC teams with more games, keep the provincials and not impact on clubs?

In excess of 20K people attend league games and most IC teams want to play there so should Dublin have to play in a 10K stadium when 20-30K want to go to the game and both teams want to play there?
Some evidence for you. 
visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Man himself Mr Duffy recommend that the quarter-finals be replaced by two groups of four, playing off in round-robin format to increase those attendances figures.

Sorry what does that prove?

I think it's showing that more games does not mean more people attending on a per game basis. It just means more people through the gate in total, when compared to the pre-qualifier total. But the interest waned over the years, and attendances are dropping year on year.

the Super 8 will increase attendances on a superficial level, because there's an extra chunk of games.