The ulster rugby trial

[LeoMc]

The lawyer added: "From what you could see, and please listen to my question very carefully: were there any signs of (the complainant) not consenting to what was going on?"

Again, Ms Florence replied: "No."

Ok, I just went by the transcript from the testimony. That's all, nothing "throwaway" in what I've said.

I still am unsure if this witness was mentioned by the IP in both cop interviews, she certainly didn't mention her in the early interview,  the one a few weeks later, perhaps she did mention her? The IP also never mentioned this witness to her friends the next day.

Why would the IP not mention this lady to the cops in that interview or to her friends?

The taxi journey is not contemporaneous evidence.

On re-examination Hedworth QC asked her if there were any signs of the woman "positively consenting". She said No.

[David McKeown]

I am reluctant to do this as it may be speculation but I think the women referred to by the defence last week as having been in the room is not the woman who has given evidence. I say this for two reasons.

1. What was reported to have been put to the IP is significantly different to the evidence reportedly given by the witness who has given evidence this week. Now that may well be because that witness had given a statement to the police the contents of which formed the basis of what was put to the IP but if that had happened then I would have expected lengthy cross examinations from the defence as to why the evidence differed. Reports have not suggested that occurred.

2. The way it was reported that the evidence was put to the IP made it seem like a defence witness was to be called when in fact we have only had prosecution witnesses so far.

As I say the above is purely on the basis of the coverage I have read of the case and could be wholly inaccurate and not necessarily due to inaccurate reporting simply because of the nuances of a criminal justice system not being fully understood by reporters.

[David McKeown]

I should also add at this stage that as I said in a previous post. There are three elements to an offence of rape. We don't know really seemed to know yet whether the defence is no penile penetration occurred, the IP consented or I reasonably believed in all the circumstances that the IP had consented.

I would have imagined it was the latter two or some combination thereof.

[Owen Brannigan]

Crying or being annoyed in a taxi will not convince me if something bad happened..

Questions missed for taxi driver:  How often do you pick up couples late night or early hours of the morning where one or more of them appears to be upset and or sobbing or soiled their clothing?  What stood out for you on this occasion that was different from your previous experience?

Either by very condensed reporting or weak questioning by barrister, the taxi driver appears to have gone unchallenged in witness box.

[Owen Brannigan]

Did anyone see Nolan last night. Did we Jamie hint that Arlene was about to do a deal and was told by gwass whoots unionists that she wouldn't be?

I almost got the feeling that it might have been loyalists telling her!

You might be in the wrong thread.

[Milltown Row2]

Crying or being annoyed in a taxi will not convince me if something bad happened..

Questions missed for taxi driver:  How often do you pick up couples late night or early hours of the morning where one or more of them appears to be upset and or sobbing or soiled their clothing?  What stood out for you on this occasion that was different from your previous experience?

Either by very condensed reporting or weak questioning by barrister, the taxi driver appears to have gone unchallenged in witness box.

Ive been distressted in a taxi when i look at the meter going from 4 quid to £15 in the space of a mile!!

I think if they didnt question the taxi man that much then i believe they didnt think it was needed.. this case will come down to their word over hers..

Was there any DNA evidence from PJ in her to prove intercourse? was there any condoms found at the house? is there any other physical evidence of resistance other than freezing with fear?

As much as the lads acted like dicks (as lads do when they are pissed and full of horn) I'm struggling to see how these lads will get convicted of rape and the other charges..

9 guys 3 women and a woman judge, Id say women are actually harder on women so not sure how it would favour having more guys on the jury...

I dont know about anyone here but there would have been nights out were you would have landed back at a party and there would have been drinks music and of course "top shagging" going on in the bedrooms and maybe 99% of them were all above board but in with all the drink taken would that have been the thing to do if you were sober? luckily enough i wasnt ever in that position, but it just takes soemone, man or woman to have that moment of regret afters and panic! then you are in a complete shit storm!

[Avondhu star]

Crying or being annoyed in a taxi will not convince me if something bad happened..

Questions missed for taxi driver:  How often do you pick up couples late night or early hours of the morning where one or more of them appears to be upset and or sobbing or soiled their clothing?  What stood out for you on this occasion that was different from your previous experience?

Either by very condensed reporting or weak questioning by barrister, the taxi driver appears to have gone unchallenged in witness box.

Crying in a taxi late at night won't be much use.
I have often seen young girls bawling their eyes out late at night after drinking. There are loads of reasons that could be the cause.
He broke up with me. He danced with some slut, too much gin, he rode me, he didn't ride me.
The fun will start when or if the accused give evidence
Hang together or they'll all hang separately

[Owen Brannigan]

Crying or being annoyed in a taxi will not convince me if something bad happened..

Questions missed for taxi driver:  How often do you pick up couples late night or early hours of the morning where one or more of them appears to be upset and or sobbing or soiled their clothing?  What stood out for you on this occasion that was different from your previous experience?

Either by very condensed reporting or weak questioning by barrister, the taxi driver appears to have gone unchallenged in witness box.

Crying in a tailgate alright won't be much use.
I have often seen young girls bawling their eyes out late at night after drinking. There are loads of reasons that could be the cause.
He broke up with me. He danced with some slut, too much gin, he rode me, he didn't ride me.

Exactly, my point, why would a barrister not ask these questions to show how common this experience was for the taxi driver collecting late night travellers.

[Avondhu star]

Crying or being annoyed in a taxi will not convince me if something bad happened..

Questions missed for taxi driver:  How often do you pick up couples late night or early hours of the morning where one or more of them appears to be upset and or sobbing or soiled their clothing?  What stood out for you on this occasion that was different from your previous experience?

Either by very condensed reporting or weak questioning by barrister, the taxi driver appears to have gone unchallenged in witness box.

Crying in a tailgate alright won't be much use.
I have often seen young girls bawling their eyes out late at night after drinking. There are loads of reasons that could be the cause.
He broke up with me. He danced with some slut, too much gin, he rode me, he didn't ride me.

Exactly, my point, why would a barrister not ask these questions to show how common this experience was for the taxi driver collecting late night travellers.

I suppose we are only getting snippets of the evidence but it is an obvious question.
I was at a trial once and the Judge told the jury to use their common sense and  life experience when assessing evidence. Any of us who have been out socialising late at night will have seen stupid young ones bawling their eyes out. I'm sure taxi drivers could tell a few tales.

[Esmarelda]

Apologies if this has been said already, but is it the case that the defendants don't have to take the stand.

If the prosecution calls them, can they refuse?

[WT4E]

Did anyone see Nolan last night. Did we Jamie hint that Arlene was about to do a deal and was told by gwass whoots unionists that she wouldn't be?

I almost got the feeling that it might have been loyalists telling her!

You might be in the wrong thread.

Sorry - I have removed!

[HiMucker]

Apologies if this has been said already, but is it the case that the defendants don't have to take the stand.

If the prosecution calls them, can they refuse?

I believe they don't have to.  It is their right to not incriminate themselves.  I stand to be corrected though.

[Avondhu star]

Apologies if this has been said already, but is it the case that the defendants don't have to take the stand.

If the prosecution calls them, can they refuse?

I believe they don't have to.  It is their right to not incriminate themselves.  I stand to be corrected though.

They can refuse and jury are not to draw any inference from this.
If they do give evidence they have to answer all questions and cannot "plead the fifth" like they can in the U.S.

[Hound]

I am reluctant to do this as it may be speculation but I think the women referred to by the defence last week as having been in the room is not the woman who has given evidence. I say this for two reasons.

1. What was reported to have been put to the IP is significantly different to the evidence reportedly given by the witness who has given evidence this week. Now that may well be because that witness had given a statement to the police the contents of which formed the basis of what was put to the IP but if that had happened then I would have expected lengthy cross examinations from the defence as to why the evidence differed. Reports have not suggested that occurred.

2. The way it was reported that the evidence was put to the IP made it seem like a defence witness was to be called when in fact we have only had prosecution witnesses so far.

As I say the above is purely on the basis of the coverage I have read of the case and could be wholly inaccurate and not necessarily due to inaccurate reporting simply because of the nuances of a criminal justice system not being fully understood by reporters.

99.9% sure you're not right here. This is the only witness. Reports said there were 4 women in the house, the witness, her 2 friends and the IP.

How do you think her evidence differed from what was expected?

The surprise to me was that the prosecution called her rather than the defense. But maybe that was a tactic on his behalf (knowing the defence would call her anyway), so he'd be able to take the lead. 

[David McKeown]

Apologies if this has been said already, but is it the case that the defendants don't have to take the stand.

If the prosecution calls them, can they refuse?

They are not compellable witnesses the prosecution can't call them. Whether they take the stand or not is entirely up to them although a jury can be invited to draw certain inferences if they choose not to take the stand. Interestingly in any multiple defendant case anything said by one co-accused about another (for example in an interview) is not admissible evidence unless that defendant takes the stand.