Author Topic: Brexit.  (Read 901287 times)

seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9915 on: October 09, 2021, 04:23:25 AM »
Large parts of left wing Labour are insane if Twitter is anything to go by.

Starmer has to get back the New Labour voters that propelled Blair to victory if he wants to win a GE, It is pretty much Tory light, so the path he's taking is understandable,  but he doesn't have the charisma Blair had nor  does he have an equally talented Brown in the background helping him strategise. Labour are doomed for a long time. Burnham & Khan will likely let Starmer do some reforming, come back after the next Election defeat and go for the leadership. Labour ideally need David Milliband to return from the US, not likely to happen tho.

Labour will be hammered again, doesn't matter who is in charge or what version of Labour is running. Tory's have the media in their corner. System is bucked

You've a point alright with the media and everything in the last election in the UK was looked at through the prism of Brexit which Corbyn and indeed Starmer were weak on and dithery.
Corbyn was portrayed as a "terrorist" supporting, anti-Semitic, commie and you can even hear Boris rabbiting on in a similar vein yesterday yet overlook the misogyny, anti Muslim, pocket lining cronyism of the Tory's.

Has Starmer the wherewithal to overcome this, I don't think so.

Starmer is a Tory mole, right out of the MI5 playbook.

Corbyn was a threat to the establishment, they eviscerated him on the grounds that he was a threat to the homogeneity of the establishment and status quo

Starmer offers no such threat, the Torys will do all they can to keep him in position for years

Someone said a few posts back that David Miliband needs to come back into the fray... what a sliding doors moment that was for British politics when his brother stabbed him in the back to take the leadership, unfortunately Ed was never going to succeed being something of a Milhouse Van Houten clone

Starmer is a neoliberal dog in the manger. His job is to prevent economic change.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1440983693636644864
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seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9916 on: October 09, 2021, 04:24:46 AM »
Minette Batters is the head of the Farmers Union.

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APM

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9917 on: October 09, 2021, 12:52:15 PM »
Large parts of left wing Labour are insane if Twitter is anything to go by.

Starmer has to get back the New Labour voters that propelled Blair to victory if he wants to win a GE, It is pretty much Tory light, so the path he's taking is understandable,  but he doesn't have the charisma Blair had nor  does he have an equally talented Brown in the background helping him strategise. Labour are doomed for a long time. Burnham & Khan will likely let Starmer do some reforming, come back after the next Election defeat and go for the leadership. Labour ideally need David Milliband to return from the US, not likely to happen tho.

Labour will be hammered again, doesn't matter who is in charge or what version of Labour is running. Tory's have the media in their corner. System is bucked

You've a point alright with the media and everything in the last election in the UK was looked at through the prism of Brexit which Corbyn and indeed Starmer were weak on and dithery.
Corbyn was portrayed as a "terrorist" supporting, anti-Semitic, commie and you can even hear Boris rabbiting on in a similar vein yesterday yet overlook the misogyny, anti Muslim, pocket lining cronyism of the Tory's.

Has Starmer the wherewithal to overcome this, I don't think so.

Starmer is a Tory mole, right out of the MI5 playbook.

Corbyn was a threat to the establishment, they eviscerated him on the grounds that he was a threat to the homogeneity of the establishment and status quo

Starmer offers no such threat, the Torys will do all they can to keep him in position for years

Someone said a few posts back that David Miliband needs to come back into the fray... what a sliding doors moment that was for British politics when his brother stabbed him in the back to take the leadership, unfortunately Ed was never going to succeed being something of a Milhouse Van Houten clone

Starmer is a neoliberal dog in the manger. His job is to prevent economic change.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1440983693636644864

The labour party is indulging in the same ideological bullshit that dogged it throughout the 1980s. As long as they persist with this shite they will never be elected. Kinnock, John Smith and Blair overseen the transition to a modern electable party by sidelining these fanatics who would rather be at war within their own party than actually win an election and run the government.  The messy ending of the Brown leadership allowed these people back to the table.
The UK is looking at in-built Tory dominance for a generation and no-one is to blame more than the left-wing of the labour party, their supporters and Ed Milliband in particular for creating the circumstances to allow the party to be taken over.  The obsession of the hard-left with rubbishing the Blair / Brown era only shows that these people belong in an entirely different party. Blair got plenty wrong, but the hard left see him and Starmer as greater enemies than Johnson and that is tragic. 

bennydorano

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9918 on: October 09, 2021, 01:57:18 PM »
Large parts of left wing Labour are insane if Twitter is anything to go by.

Starmer has to get back the New Labour voters that propelled Blair to victory if he wants to win a GE, It is pretty much Tory light, so the path he's taking is understandable,  but he doesn't have the charisma Blair had nor  does he have an equally talented Brown in the background helping him strategise. Labour are doomed for a long time. Burnham & Khan will likely let Starmer do some reforming, come back after the next Election defeat and go for the leadership. Labour ideally need David Milliband to return from the US, not likely to happen tho.

Labour will be hammered again, doesn't matter who is in charge or what version of Labour is running. Tory's have the media in their corner. System is bucked

You've a point alright with the media and everything in the last election in the UK was looked at through the prism of Brexit which Corbyn and indeed Starmer were weak on and dithery.
Corbyn was portrayed as a "terrorist" supporting, anti-Semitic, commie and you can even hear Boris rabbiting on in a similar vein yesterday yet overlook the misogyny, anti Muslim, pocket lining cronyism of the Tory's.

Has Starmer the wherewithal to overcome this, I don't think so.

Starmer is a Tory mole, right out of the MI5 playbook.

Corbyn was a threat to the establishment, they eviscerated him on the grounds that he was a threat to the homogeneity of the establishment and status quo

Starmer offers no such threat, the Torys will do all they can to keep him in position for years

Someone said a few posts back that David Miliband needs to come back into the fray... what a sliding doors moment that was for British politics when his brother stabbed him in the back to take the leadership, unfortunately Ed was never going to succeed being something of a Milhouse Van Houten clone

Starmer is a neoliberal dog in the manger. His job is to prevent economic change.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1440983693636644864
Seafoid you've been blathering on about Neoliberalism for years like it's some sort of insult, it's the Economic model of the EU & Western world in general.

lenny

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9919 on: October 09, 2021, 02:36:15 PM »
Large parts of left wing Labour are insane if Twitter is anything to go by.

Starmer has to get back the New Labour voters that propelled Blair to victory if he wants to win a GE, It is pretty much Tory light, so the path he's taking is understandable,  but he doesn't have the charisma Blair had nor  does he have an equally talented Brown in the background helping him strategise. Labour are doomed for a long time. Burnham & Khan will likely let Starmer do some reforming, come back after the next Election defeat and go for the leadership. Labour ideally need David Milliband to return from the US, not likely to happen tho.

Labour will be hammered again, doesn't matter who is in charge or what version of Labour is running. Tory's have the media in their corner. System is bucked

You've a point alright with the media and everything in the last election in the UK was looked at through the prism of Brexit which Corbyn and indeed Starmer were weak on and dithery.
Corbyn was portrayed as a "terrorist" supporting, anti-Semitic, commie and you can even hear Boris rabbiting on in a similar vein yesterday yet overlook the misogyny, anti Muslim, pocket lining cronyism of the Tory's.

Has Starmer the wherewithal to overcome this, I don't think so.

Starmer is a Tory mole, right out of the MI5 playbook.

Corbyn was a threat to the establishment, they eviscerated him on the grounds that he was a threat to the homogeneity of the establishment and status quo

Starmer offers no such threat, the Torys will do all they can to keep him in position for years

Someone said a few posts back that David Miliband needs to come back into the fray... what a sliding doors moment that was for British politics when his brother stabbed him in the back to take the leadership, unfortunately Ed was never going to succeed being something of a Milhouse Van Houten clone

Starmer is a neoliberal dog in the manger. His job is to prevent economic change.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1440983693636644864

The labour party is indulging in the same ideological bullshit that dogged it throughout the 1980s. As long as they persist with this shite they will never be elected. Kinnock, John Smith and Blair overseen the transition to a modern electable party by sidelining these fanatics who would rather be at war within their own party than actually win an election and run the government.  The messy ending of the Brown leadership allowed these people back to the table.
The UK is looking at in-built Tory dominance for a generation and no-one is to blame more than the left-wing of the labour party, their supporters and Ed Milliband in particular for creating the circumstances to allow the party to be taken over.  The obsession of the hard-left with rubbishing the Blair / Brown era only shows that these people belong in an entirely different party. Blair got plenty wrong, but the hard left see him and Starmer as greater enemies than Johnson and that is tragic.

The hard left would be brilliant for the country but will never get a chance because of the power of the media and Murdock in particular. The Tory party have been in power for something like 80 of the last 100 years. Blair bucked the trend by winning elections but he did so by going and meeting Murdock and agreeing to whatever it took to get Murdock to back him. The Murdock empire have only ever backed one labour leader and he won multiple elections. Basically whoever Murdock has backed has won every election in the uk in the last 50+ years.

seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9920 on: October 09, 2021, 03:34:04 PM »
Large parts of left wing Labour are insane if Twitter is anything to go by.

Starmer has to get back the New Labour voters that propelled Blair to victory if he wants to win a GE, It is pretty much Tory light, so the path he's taking is understandable,  but he doesn't have the charisma Blair had nor  does he have an equally talented Brown in the background helping him strategise. Labour are doomed for a long time. Burnham & Khan will likely let Starmer do some reforming, come back after the next Election defeat and go for the leadership. Labour ideally need David Milliband to return from the US, not likely to happen tho.

Labour will be hammered again, doesn't matter who is in charge or what version of Labour is running. Tory's have the media in their corner. System is bucked

You've a point alright with the media and everything in the last election in the UK was looked at through the prism of Brexit which Corbyn and indeed Starmer were weak on and dithery.
Corbyn was portrayed as a "terrorist" supporting, anti-Semitic, commie and you can even hear Boris rabbiting on in a similar vein yesterday yet overlook the misogyny, anti Muslim, pocket lining cronyism of the Tory's.

Has Starmer the wherewithal to overcome this, I don't think so.

Starmer is a Tory mole, right out of the MI5 playbook.

Corbyn was a threat to the establishment, they eviscerated him on the grounds that he was a threat to the homogeneity of the establishment and status quo

Starmer offers no such threat, the Torys will do all they can to keep him in position for years

Someone said a few posts back that David Miliband needs to come back into the fray... what a sliding doors moment that was for British politics when his brother stabbed him in the back to take the leadership, unfortunately Ed was never going to succeed being something of a Milhouse Van Houten clone

Starmer is a neoliberal dog in the manger. His job is to prevent economic change.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1440983693636644864
Seafoid you've been blathering on about Neoliberalism for years like it's some sort of insult, it's the Economic model of the EU & Western world in general.
When is the last time you.got a decent payrise?
When is the last time a 25 year old could buy a flat ?

Neoliberalism is the system. The rich have all the money.
Same as 1789 in France..
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BennyCake

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9921 on: October 09, 2021, 04:38:36 PM »
Large parts of left wing Labour are insane if Twitter is anything to go by.

Starmer has to get back the New Labour voters that propelled Blair to victory if he wants to win a GE, It is pretty much Tory light, so the path he's taking is understandable,  but he doesn't have the charisma Blair had nor  does he have an equally talented Brown in the background helping him strategise. Labour are doomed for a long time. Burnham & Khan will likely let Starmer do some reforming, come back after the next Election defeat and go for the leadership. Labour ideally need David Milliband to return from the US, not likely to happen tho.

Labour will be hammered again, doesn't matter who is in charge or what version of Labour is running. Tory's have the media in their corner. System is bucked

You've a point alright with the media and everything in the last election in the UK was looked at through the prism of Brexit which Corbyn and indeed Starmer were weak on and dithery.
Corbyn was portrayed as a "terrorist" supporting, anti-Semitic, commie and you can even hear Boris rabbiting on in a similar vein yesterday yet overlook the misogyny, anti Muslim, pocket lining cronyism of the Tory's.

Has Starmer the wherewithal to overcome this, I don't think so.

Starmer is a Tory mole, right out of the MI5 playbook.

Corbyn was a threat to the establishment, they eviscerated him on the grounds that he was a threat to the homogeneity of the establishment and status quo

Starmer offers no such threat, the Torys will do all they can to keep him in position for years

Someone said a few posts back that David Miliband needs to come back into the fray... what a sliding doors moment that was for British politics when his brother stabbed him in the back to take the leadership, unfortunately Ed was never going to succeed being something of a Milhouse Van Houten clone

Starmer is a neoliberal dog in the manger. His job is to prevent economic change.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1440983693636644864

The labour party is indulging in the same ideological bullshit that dogged it throughout the 1980s. As long as they persist with this shite they will never be elected. Kinnock, John Smith and Blair overseen the transition to a modern electable party by sidelining these fanatics who would rather be at war within their own party than actually win an election and run the government.  The messy ending of the Brown leadership allowed these people back to the table.
The UK is looking at in-built Tory dominance for a generation and no-one is to blame more than the left-wing of the labour party, their supporters and Ed Milliband in particular for creating the circumstances to allow the party to be taken over.  The obsession of the hard-left with rubbishing the Blair / Brown era only shows that these people belong in an entirely different party. Blair got plenty wrong, but the hard left see him and Starmer as greater enemies than Johnson and that is tragic.

The hard left would be brilliant for the country but will never get a chance because of the power of the media and Murdock in particular. The Tory party have been in power for something like 80 of the last 100 years. Blair bucked the trend by winning elections but he did so by going and meeting Murdock and agreeing to whatever it took to get Murdock to back him. The Murdock empire have only ever backed one labour leader and he won multiple elections. Basically whoever Murdock has backed has won every election in the uk in the last 50+ years.

Yeah basically it’s the red top news-rags that tell the masses who to vote for

seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9922 on: October 09, 2021, 04:45:33 PM »
Large parts of left wing Labour are insane if Twitter is anything to go by.

Starmer has to get back the New Labour voters that propelled Blair to victory if he wants to win a GE, It is pretty much Tory light, so the path he's taking is understandable,  but he doesn't have the charisma Blair had nor  does he have an equally talented Brown in the background helping him strategise. Labour are doomed for a long time. Burnham & Khan will likely let Starmer do some reforming, come back after the next Election defeat and go for the leadership. Labour ideally need David Milliband to return from the US, not likely to happen tho.

Labour will be hammered again, doesn't matter who is in charge or what version of Labour is running. Tory's have the media in their corner. System is bucked

You've a point alright with the media and everything in the last election in the UK was looked at through the prism of Brexit which Corbyn and indeed Starmer were weak on and dithery.
Corbyn was portrayed as a "terrorist" supporting, anti-Semitic, commie and you can even hear Boris rabbiting on in a similar vein yesterday yet overlook the misogyny, anti Muslim, pocket lining cronyism of the Tory's.

Has Starmer the wherewithal to overcome this, I don't think so.

Starmer is a Tory mole, right out of the MI5 playbook.

Corbyn was a threat to the establishment, they eviscerated him on the grounds that he was a threat to the homogeneity of the establishment and status quo

Starmer offers no such threat, the Torys will do all they can to keep him in position for years

Someone said a few posts back that David Miliband needs to come back into the fray... what a sliding doors moment that was for British politics when his brother stabbed him in the back to take the leadership, unfortunately Ed was never going to succeed being something of a Milhouse Van Houten clone

Starmer is a neoliberal dog in the manger. His job is to prevent economic change.

https://mobile.twitter.com/DoubleDownNews/status/1440983693636644864
Seafoid you've been blathering on about Neoliberalism for years like it's some sort of insult, it's the Economic model of the EU & Western world in general.
Neoliberalism is the name of the current economic system.
It's why Messi is no longer playing for Barcelona, why UCC has a food bank and why house prices are what they are.
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bennydorano

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9923 on: October 09, 2021, 09:09:59 PM »
I know. Calling Starmer a Neoliberal just seems pointless nonsense. He's in the Labour Party (& not any of the others) for a reason - because he believes in their values, Labour's values, not Corbyn's values.

seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9924 on: October 10, 2021, 11:50:30 AM »
I know. Calling Starmer a Neoliberal just seems pointless nonsense. He's in the Labour Party (& not any of the others) for a reason - because he believes in their values, Labour's values, not Corbyn's values.
He doesn't believe in their values. He is purging left wingers.
Labour never won an election with a split party.

He supports debt expansion and does not understand the big picture
 He doesn't care about Yorkshire.
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Farrandeelin

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9925 on: October 10, 2021, 01:36:40 PM »
(C) Nick Tolhurst on twitter, the British govt are telling senior civil servants to prepare for a 'trade war' with the EU. Apparently they're not happy with the deal.
The woman in red has the car parked on the slope.

armaghniac

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9926 on: October 10, 2021, 01:51:12 PM »
(C) Nick Tolhurst on twitter, the British govt are telling senior civil servants to prepare for a 'trade war' with the EU. Apparently they're not happy with the deal.

That's because they want the war, not the deal.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9927 on: October 10, 2021, 03:30:24 PM »
It does not look good


https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/eu-response-on-ni-protocol-will-depend-on-uk-s-true-intentions-1.4634914?mode=amp

Guarantors demand reciprocal trust in partnerships as part of the international order, one of the necessary conditions for maintaining political co-operation – in Ireland and elsewhere. That is not on view from UK negotiators
Johnson and David Frost say they did not fully understand the effects an Irish Sea border to protect the single market would have on British trade with Northern Ireland – even though these were fully spelled out in two briefing documents at the time.
Their threats to breach the agreement are seen as bad faith. Their call for a freezing of protocol implementation while an effective renegotiation of it is sought is seen in the same way.
One thread of discussion between the more technocratic European Commission, which is willing to explore possible further flexible and imaginative solutions to the protocol problems, and the more political European Council is whether the latest UK position is an effort to upend the agreement for domestic political reasons. In that case more blunt tactics would be called for, including trade sanctions or even reversion to WTO conditions.That would be a disaster for Ireland, necessitating hard border controls.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2021/10/09/boris-johnson-faces-fresh-brexit-clash-judges/

Boris Johnson is gearing up for a second explosive confrontation with Parliament and the courts over Brexit as he demands a new deal with the EU which would free Northern Ireland from the oversight of European judges.
Downing Street is preparing for a major clash with the House of Lords and Supreme Court as soon as next month,
with senior officials drawing up plans to unilaterally suspend swathes of the Northern Ireland Protocol if Brussels refuses to make "significant changes" to the current deal.
The Telegraph understands that Lord Frost, the Cabinet Office minister, will make it clear to his EU counterpart that removing European Court of Justice (ECJ) oversight of the Protocol is a "red line" for Britain.


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seafoid

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9928 on: October 10, 2021, 07:47:49 PM »

https://www.ft.com/content/9f06ea29-e516-4c81-83ca-5a805d1d3148

On Wednesday, Sefcovic will publish proposals to drop many checks on goods deemed unlikely to leak from Northern Ireland into the EU single market via the Republic of Ireland. But around half the customs and health checks would remain, a situation considered intolerable by the UK government and the Democratic Unionist party, which is part of Northern Ireland’s administration. Sir Jeffrey Donaldson, its leader, welcomed the EU’s willingness to negotiate but said it did not go far enough. “We are clear there should be no internal barriers to trade within the United Kingdom and we want to see the removal of barriers to trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland and that is our bottom line. For us, the Irish Sea border must go,” he told the FT. He has threatened to pull his ministers out of the Northern Ireland power-sharing executive, another key element of the Good Friday accord, as early as this month unless the protocol is scrapped. Frost wants the protocol to be governed like the later Trade and Cooperation Agreement between the two sides, where disputes are managed collectively and ultimately through international arbitration. However, legal experts believe Frost would run into problems in the domestic courts if he tried to use Article 16 — the override mechanism in the protocol — because the EU refused to end the role of the ECJ. George Peretz, QC at Monckton Chambers, noted that the protocol specifies that Article 16 could only be used where there are “serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade”. If it triggered Article 16 over the ECJ, the UK would “face likely defeat in the domestic courts”, he said on Twitter. That could mean the Johnson administration faces either the possibility of a battle in the courts or the need to introduce new legislation, which would potentially run into opposition from the House of Lords. It would also face retaliation from the EU’s 27 member states, who have accused the UK of trying to renege on a deal it signed two years ago.
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Rossfan

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Re: Brexit.
« Reply #9929 on: October 10, 2021, 08:42:38 PM »
We have a shitshow at home so let's engineer a "war" with the EU so we can get everyone back onside in  good old us v Johnny Foreigner .
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