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He completely revolutionised tactics in gaelic football and had the tactical wherewithal and strength of personality to set a team up ultra defensively by playing zonal at the back. He didn't care one bit what anybody thought of him and probably still doesn't as it brought him an AI title that they would not have won if playing conventionally. The criticism only bolstered him and created a siege mentality that he seems to need. It was complete outside the box thinking at the time and very gutsy but don't pretend that it didn't set gaelic football back as a spectacle and which has never really recovered since then.

I don't think it was his aim to be ultra defensive because of some form of idealism, it was just that did whatever he thought was required to give them the best possible chance at winning. 

Managers do whatever they have to do to win.

Look at Ancelotti last night; they sat back in the lowest of low blocks played on the break and looked to frustrate City and took their chances on a penalty shootout.

Should we Chastise Ancellotti in the same fashion?

I'm not chastising him at all, he just done what he felt he had to do to win. A managers job is to devise a system of play that gets the best out of the players which he has at his disposal. McGuinness achieved that in his first spell but he will struggle to do it this time around since any tactical advantage will be greatly reduced due to the emphasis now put on data and analytics.

I wouldn't blame him for the state of the gaelic football today but its fairly clear 13 years later that he set the wheels in motion for the spectacle we now have today.   

He completely revolutionised tactics in gaelic football and had the tactical wherewithal and strength of personality to set a team up ultra defensively by playing zonal at the back. He didn't care one bit what anybody thought of him and probably still doesn't as it brought him an AI title that they would not have won if playing conventionally. The criticism only bolstered him and created a siege mentality that he seems to need. It was complete outside the box thinking at the time and very gutsy but don't pretend that it didn't set gaelic football back as a spectacle and which has never really recovered since then.

I don't think it was his aim to be ultra defensive because of some form of idealism, it was just that did whatever he thought was required to give them the best possible chance at winning. 

[I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster]

Is it really? Most counties have goals at the start of the year, get promoted, avoid relegation, beat neighbours etc. do they really need a coping mechanism of devaluing competitions, I seriously doubt it.  There are about 26 counties under the new system never going win Sam, Derry don't need another Ulster but will probably win it, any other county would relish it.

I believe JoG2 was referring the fans attempting to devalue a competition as a defense mechanism for if they don't win it. Armagh will have failed this year (again) if they do not win Ulster. How anyone can think different is beyond me.

What if they lose Ulster but play in an All Ireland final. Is that a bigger failure than winning Ulster and then going out in the groups?

You're changing angles here. What is having a good year, which reaching an AI final for most teams is, got to do with questioning the value of the Anglo Celt cup which you did? A hypothetical appearance in an AI final shouldn't come into the equation.
You're Armagh yes, very surprising considering the last 15+ years winning nothing. Derry winning 2 years ago was incredible, winning back to back was, well incredible. The thought of winning a treble, well that's the stuff of dreams. Worry about any attack on a Sam after.

The answer is the Ulster Championship is not viewed in isolation You've said Armagh will have failed this year if they don't win Ulster. I disagree. They could miss out on Ulster and make an All Ireland final which to me would be far less of a failure than winning Ulster and going out in the group stages. Similarly I'd rather have been promoted this year than win Ulster. That's not to say doing both wouldn't be nice but simply that Ulster can be viewed in isolation.

You are holding the Anglo Celt up as some kind of be all and end all for the season. It's not. For me If your county would prefer to win an Ulster and nothing else this year then it's extremely meaningful. If your county would prefer a deep run in the All Ireland series then Ulster is less meaningful.

Hmm, honestly if you said to me now win Ulster and go out in group or lose in Ulster and lose in a semi final I think I'd take an Ulster given a fair chunk of our team were in primary school when we last won it.

(Pointless argument anyway because if you win Ulster and go in as top seed there would be something seriously wrong if you couldnt at least make a preliminary QF)

That's a perfectly valid view but I don't think it's one universally shared. I don't feel that way and I feel a provincial championship is as meaningful as it once was.

When you have 6 teams capable of beating eachother in a one off game in a competition it's certainly an achievement to win it!!

I genuinely don't think you have that in Ulster this year but I take your point. My issue is that it's not as meaningful as it once was. I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster at the expense of their future progress certainly not to the extent they might have in years gone bye. For me that makes it less meaningful than it used to be. As has the introduction of the back door. As has the moved to being played in April/May. As has the talk of it potentially being axed all together etc etc.

So I don't think I'm devaluing it out of some kind of coping mechanism for not winning it. I think it merely has become devalued. That's not a view shared by all and I accept that.

What do you think those counties are doing (or not doing) to lead you believe that they are giving less than 100%?

I think every county are trying their best to win a provincial title but for some it's just a safeguard mechanism that if they happen to fail along the way. The proper judgement on that will only come when the season has ended and the year as a whole can be properly assessed.

I don't think they plan to peak for a run at Ulster. I think training is set so they are at a good enough level for Ulster but hope to peak for the later matches. I think they know that being at your absolute best from April to August is much more difficult than peaking in mid to late June. I think in the modern sport science approach that many of the top counties have a similar approach.

In a similar vein I don't think fellas will risk injuries by playing when not fit in provincial games the way you would have seen in previous years.

Of course I could be wrong. As you say the only way you'll ever know is in hindsight.

I don't think player fitness levels will fluctuate very much throughout a season the way players are conditioned now. It's not like in the past where players came back pre season with weight to shed and could train for 4-6 week blocks before the League season or championship campaign began. There just isn't the room to do that anymore and they are conditioned to play matches week on week with a good base line fitness level built up. An injured player mightn't wish to put his season in jeopardy by coming back too soon alright but I don't believe that any county aren't giving 100% to win a provincial championship as there aren't that many cups to win.

Kerry and Dublin might be the rare exception as they are so far ahead of the opposition in their provinces they could probably afford to not taper too much before matches and still win their provinces easily.   

[I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster]

Is it really? Most counties have goals at the start of the year, get promoted, avoid relegation, beat neighbours etc. do they really need a coping mechanism of devaluing competitions, I seriously doubt it.  There are about 26 counties under the new system never going win Sam, Derry don't need another Ulster but will probably win it, any other county would relish it.

I believe JoG2 was referring the fans attempting to devalue a competition as a defense mechanism for if they don't win it. Armagh will have failed this year (again) if they do not win Ulster. How anyone can think different is beyond me.

What if they lose Ulster but play in an All Ireland final. Is that a bigger failure than winning Ulster and then going out in the groups?

You're changing angles here. What is having a good year, which reaching an AI final for most teams is, got to do with questioning the value of the Anglo Celt cup which you did? A hypothetical appearance in an AI final shouldn't come into the equation.
You're Armagh yes, very surprising considering the last 15+ years winning nothing. Derry winning 2 years ago was incredible, winning back to back was, well incredible. The thought of winning a treble, well that's the stuff of dreams. Worry about any attack on a Sam after.

The answer is the Ulster Championship is not viewed in isolation You've said Armagh will have failed this year if they don't win Ulster. I disagree. They could miss out on Ulster and make an All Ireland final which to me would be far less of a failure than winning Ulster and going out in the group stages. Similarly I'd rather have been promoted this year than win Ulster. That's not to say doing both wouldn't be nice but simply that Ulster can be viewed in isolation.

You are holding the Anglo Celt up as some kind of be all and end all for the season. It's not. For me If your county would prefer to win an Ulster and nothing else this year then it's extremely meaningful. If your county would prefer a deep run in the All Ireland series then Ulster is less meaningful.

Hmm, honestly if you said to me now win Ulster and go out in group or lose in Ulster and lose in a semi final I think I'd take an Ulster given a fair chunk of our team were in primary school when we last won it.

(Pointless argument anyway because if you win Ulster and go in as top seed there would be something seriously wrong if you couldnt at least make a preliminary QF)

That's a perfectly valid view but I don't think it's one universally shared. I don't feel that way and I feel a provincial championship is as meaningful as it once was.

When you have 6 teams capable of beating eachother in a one off game in a competition it's certainly an achievement to win it!!

I genuinely don't think you have that in Ulster this year but I take your point. My issue is that it's not as meaningful as it once was. I don't think any of those 6 counties are going 100% to win an Ulster at the expense of their future progress certainly not to the extent they might have in years gone bye. For me that makes it less meaningful than it used to be. As has the introduction of the back door. As has the moved to being played in April/May. As has the talk of it potentially being axed all together etc etc.

So I don't think I'm devaluing it out of some kind of coping mechanism for not winning it. I think it merely has become devalued. That's not a view shared by all and I accept that.

What do you think those counties are doing (or not doing) to lead you believe that they are giving less than 100%?

I think every county are trying their best to win a provincial title but for some it's just a safeguard mechanism that if they happen to fail along the way. The proper judgement on that will only come when the season has ended and the year as a whole can be properly assessed.

Bookies only giving this one a 3pt handicap so they're wary of McGuinness and whatever shenanigans he comes up with.

I would love for us to beat Donegal this weekend but this is their AIF and do we really have the hunger to go after another Ulster title given the hardship it will entail? I don't doubt the team will be telling themselves they want to win every game but how realistic is that nowadays?

If we win that's great, but if we got beat without any big injuries I wouldn't be that disappointed.

This media led obsession with Jimmy McGuinness is getting tiresome. He can't play the match despite claims of him pulling rabbits out of hats, having tricks up his sleeve and coming up with something new (shenanigans). Gaelic football is different today than it was 12 years ago and opposition teams are being analysed to death so there will be no new major innovative breakthrough.

No doubt if Donegal manage to win (which I don't think they will) it will be put down to the genius of Jimmy. More likely it will just be your run of the mill arm wrestle though as he knows that he probably needs to reduce the game to a defensive slugfest in order to stand a chance. Pragmatism and a reversion to what he know best will take over as I didn't see anything majorly innovative during the League campaign, just a team that were better prepared than the previous season.

[I'd probably put a division one League title above a provincial title now since its a national title where you have beaten the best 8 teams in the country over a 2 month period.]

Armagh have shown glimpses of the 2022 championship form this year but I'd still be worried that they will slip back into last years negative mindset when faced with better opposition. The same thing happened in the League final again when the stakes were heightened and the fear of losing took over. 

The Ulster final, should we get there, could well be the defining game of the season because they won't be winning an All Ireland title. For a lot of those players it's probably the last chance saloon to try and win meaningful silverware.

Is it meaningful silverware?

At the start of the year there are 4 trophies you can win. Provincial pres season cup, divisional League, provincial championship and AI title. If you think it's not meaningful silverware then the 31 counties who fail to win Sam Maguire will have been failures at the end of the season. 

Success shouldn't be judged purely on silverware anyway imo since its all relative to a counties resources and current standing. No doubt the provincial championships have been devalued now but its still meaningful silverware and a prize worth lifting certainly for a county who haven't had much recent success. I'd probably put a division one League title above a provincial title now since its a national title where you have beaten the best 8 teams in the country over a 2 month period.   

Which is fair enough however in the terms of value winning Ulster will mean 1st seed and avoiding Kerry,Dublin in the group stage.

Which is true and does give it some extra value alright. However that only holds water if at the end of the season you win Sam and can look back and say that it was because of the easier pathway that the seeding provided to get us to the AI final. The main reason I would like to win Ulster is for the trophy itself and not a seeding into another competition.

He wrote an article the week before the league final saying it would be a success if Derry get within 6 points of this amazing Dublin team. Since then he's made a few comments that it's only the league. Then on his podcast last week he said he'll support those Derry lads no matter what as they are giving everything for the jersey, it's just Mickey Harte he doesn't like, but a few months ago he was saying no Derry player is good enough to start the Dublin team. The quality just isn't there and processed football can only get you so far.

From a football point of view he wants nothing more than Dublin to hammer everyone and he can then somehow link it to Pat Gilroy.

As a Dungiven man I find it very hard to listen to him these days. He is a walking contradiction. He's not stupid and I suppose he is staying relevant as we are talking about him so he's probably achieving what he set out to do.

I struggle to listen to Brolly anymore too. Used to enjoy him but he comes across now as slightly unhinged. Uses his platforms to target those who he hates incl Derry players and strikes me as a man who is content when Derry lose, he's not a real supporter. It's pretty clear to me of those who he targets have all one thing in common, he's highly jealous of them. He only ever has one objective and that is to make everything about him!!

That last podcast annoyed my head and I usually like the podcasts. I'm 100% a GAA man 1st and foremost but the constant it's nothing unless the GAA do it is bollox. My lads go to the local soccer club and they're very much a community club and do a lot for the people in the area and are absolutely delighted that they had a load of lads and girls from the surrounding GAA clubs playing with them.
He hadn't even the humility to check the history of the people he mentioned in it. "Do you think Gary Neville and David Beckham give a shit about Man Utd after they left them?" No wonder people from other sports don't like the GAA

Yeah its cringeworthy stuff from Brolly.

Why cant we say how great one sport is without having to run down another.

Unless its rugby just to wind them up haha.

I don't think he should be taken particularly seriously as either a journalist or a podcaster. It's all about the performance and that might have been what attracted him to the bar in the beginning. He is a performer and a propagandist where he puts his own viewpoint across and dismisses everything else. I used to enjoy his GAA punditry on RTE as he could articulate his point better than anybody else and was an important cog railing against some of the excessive commercialism of the GAA. However it has become clear that they made the right decision to get rid of him as he had just become too toxic and vitriolic. Most people tweeting incessantly tend to have an overinflated opinion of their own importance in the world.   

Armagh have shown glimpses of the 2022 championship form this year but I'd still be worried that they will slip back into last years negative mindset when faced with better opposition. The same thing happened in the League final again when the stakes were heightened and the fear of losing took over. 

The Ulster final, should we get there, could well be the defining game of the season because they won't be winning an All Ireland title. For a lot of those players it's probably the last chance saloon to try and win meaningful silverware.

Is it meaningful silverware?

At the start of the year there are 4 trophies you can win. Provincial pres season cup, divisional League, provincial championship and AI title. If you think it's not meaningful silverware then the 31 counties who fail to win Sam Maguire will have been failures at the end of the season. 

Success shouldn't be judged purely on silverware anyway imo since its all relative to a counties resources and current standing. No doubt the provincial championships have been devalued now but its still meaningful silverware and a prize worth lifting certainly for a county who haven't had much recent success. I'd probably put a division one League title above a provincial title now since its a national title where you have beaten the best 8 teams in the country over a 2 month period.   

Armagh have shown glimpses of the 2022 championship form this year but I'd still be worried that they will slip back into last years negative mindset when faced with better opposition. The same thing happened in the League final again when the stakes were heightened and the fear of losing took over. 

The Ulster final, should we get there, could well be the defining game of the season because they won't be winning an All Ireland title. For a lot of those players it's probably the last chance saloon to try and win meaningful silverware.

I'd honestly think more of management if we went gung ho and ended up losing rather than going out and playing cowardly football like the Monaghan quarter final.

Hopefully we can strike a happy medium though!

Yes, I'd ageee with that. I've no problem losing providing we do so by trying to win the match rather than playing not to lose and engaging in another arm wrestle. As well as being pain staking to watch it doesn't actually suit the type of player we have.

The Galway defeat in 2022 was one I could live with as it was enjoyable football to watch and we certainly had a go that season.

The split season cant help either.  I remember when the 1st round of the Ulster championship was a great day out played in late May or early June with decent weather.  Families could make a day of it and watch two knock out matches.  Yesterday only me and my brother could go.  His kids have exams coming up, there was no minor game, it was expensive, it was cold, it was wet it was windy and little to nothing rested on the outcome. Win and you had at least 4 matches left this season lose and you have at least 3 matches left.  I never liked the backdoor for what it did to the provincial championships it was the first nail in their coffin for me.  This current format is the final nail.

It definitely doesn't feel like championship as every game is heavily watered down in terms of what is at stake. It's not proper cup/championship football until the quarter finals. It will meant practically the same handful of teams will be in the last 4/8 every season.

There will be no more Cavan's or Tipperary giant killings as with the 2020 Covid championship season. 

Armagh have shown glimpses of the 2022 championship form this year but I'd still be worried that they will slip back into last years negative mindset when faced with better opposition. The same thing happened in the League final again when the stakes were heightened and the fear of losing took over. 

The Ulster final, should we get there, could well be the defining game of the season because they won't be winning an All Ireland title. For a lot of those players it's probably the last chance saloon to try and win meaningful silverware.

Sixty thousand empty seats in Croke Park for a Dublin Meath championship match.  What a sad state of affairs.

Sad indeed

A number of obvious reasons for it , but one thing I have to say  from watching  a numbers of games this weekend, is that  the quality of football right now is  absolutely dire

As a spectacle it really has become a poor game to watch. Ruined by over coaching and stats, the level of crowd engagement at a match has never been lower.

Yes and no.  The league final was a fantastic game. The latter stages of the AI last year were pretty compelling.  Lots of mismatches in the early stages, like every year, but that's not uncommon in sport. Look at the top 5 or 6 European soccer leagues this year, and the top teams are pretty much scunnering everyone else.

The League final was great but it was a rarity. I don't think we should be measuring it against soccer but it's almost become possession orientated in the way that soccer is. The difference is that the level of technical skill required in soccer is much higher to retain possession.

Gaelic football was not designed to be a possession sport. It should be a game of duels, collisions and end to end action played at fast pace. It has become anything but that due mostly to data analytics and professional coaches exploiting the rules.

Watched it on the replay and it didn't even register on the Sunday Game highlights which tells you all you need to know. A yellow card was the correct decision, no force in the challenge.

Paul Flynn talking about KPIs, pockets of space and horseshoes tonight. New age punditry.

Sixty thousand empty seats in Croke Park for a Dublin Meath championship match.  What a sad state of affairs.

Sad indeed

A number of obvious reasons for it , but one thing I have to say  from watching  a numbers of games this weekend, is that  the quality of football right now is  absolutely dire

As a spectacle it really has become a poor game to watch. Ruined by over coaching and stats, the level of crowd engagement at a match has never been lower.

Your money at the turnstile is effectively funding a host of professional coaches and over inflated backroom teams.