Ashers cake controversy.

Started by T Fearon, November 07, 2014, 06:36:39 PM

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seafoid

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lM7H0ooV_o8

Everybody needs a bosom for a pillow,
Everybody needs a bosom

Except for gay customers, obviously
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T Fearon

It's all about gay supremacy now.Ridiculous.No protection far less respect for those who hold religious views,in fact they are penalised at every turn

Aaron Boone

It'll run for another while, Ashers have funding and congregation support to keep appealing. There's  no real winners, lawyers apart.

whitey

So following this logic should a bakery owned by a Nationslist be legally obliged to bake a cake for an Orange Lodge celebration?




macdanger2

Wouldn't agree that they discrimated against him on the grounds of his sexual orientation. If a heterosexual person had asked for the same cake, they would presumably also been refused?

Imo, the question really would come down to whether or not they would have refused to make a cake with a message "Oppose Gay Marriage" or not. If they wouldn't have, then they were discriminating

general_lee

Quote from: T Fearon on October 24, 2016, 08:04:20 PM
It's all about gay supremacy now.Ridiculous.No protection far less respect for those who hold religious views,in fact they are penalised at every turn
Piss off you moron, so called Christians have ruled the roost in this pathetic excuse of a state since it's creation and their dopey beliefs form the foundations for the backwards laws in NI and you have the nerve to spout shite about gay supremacy.

T Fearon

Gay supremacists just like Christian fundamentalists impose their will on all and sundry.It has gone beyond equality to supremacy and imposing their views on everyone

muppet

Quote from: macdanger2 on October 24, 2016, 09:05:14 PM
Wouldn't agree that they discrimated against him on the grounds of his sexual orientation. If a heterosexual person had asked for the same cake, they would presumably also been refused?

Imo, the question really would come down to whether or not they would have refused to make a cake with a message "Oppose Gay Marriage" or not. If they wouldn't have, then they were discriminating

The whole thing was obviously set up by the gay man. But equally, Ashers could have refused to bake the cake on many other grounds that would have not bothered the Equality Laws. Both sides wanted the fight to be on the grounds of sexual orientation and in particular to have their respective views on the matter triump. There is only one winner there.
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T Fearon

If they had baked the cake and offered it for sale to him without the slogan surely that would have kept them on the right side of the law

muppet

Quote from: T Fearon on October 24, 2016, 10:09:12 PM
If they had baked the cake and offered it for sale to him without the slogan surely that would have kept them on the right side of the law

As OmaghJoe said above, they could have said they were busy. They could have done what many tradesmen the world over do every day and 'forgot'. They could have got the message wring and 'accidentally' wrote something else.

It looks to me that Ashers wanted the fight, and still want it.
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thejuice

Obviously its a complicated issue and could set some difficult precedents but ultimately I think the cake shop owner ought to have their religious views respected even if I don't personally agree with them. Plenty of other religious views are accommodated by businesses across Europe despite the questionable moral ethics of some of their practices. In this instance this is the least incendiary case I can think of and yet look at the storm its creating, and this families livelihood could be in jeopardy over it.

I've spoken to some gay lads who've told me they find it all embarrassing. In their words "Its just a bloody cake, can't they just go somewhere else, there is plenty of other places". But then they weren't that keen on gay marriage or modern gay activism in general.
It won't be the next manager but the one after that Meath will become competitive again - MO'D 2016

foxcommander

Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2016, 10:12:40 PM
They could have got the message wring and 'accidentally' wrote something else.

It's not like you to get a message wring
Back to the dictionary corner with you  :)
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omaghjoe

Quote from: muppet on October 24, 2016, 10:06:17 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on October 24, 2016, 09:05:14 PM
Wouldn't agree that they discrimated against him on the grounds of his sexual orientation. If a heterosexual person had asked for the same cake, they would presumably also been refused?

Imo, the question really would come down to whether or not they would have refused to make a cake with a message "Oppose Gay Marriage" or not. If they wouldn't have, then they were discriminating

The whole thing was obviously set up by the gay man. But equally, Ashers could have refused to bake the cake on many other grounds that would have not bothered the Equality Laws. Both sides wanted the fight to be on the grounds of sexual orientation and in particular to have their respective views on the matter triump. There is only one winner there.

I think you just about nailed it Muppet....for a change ;P

Tho TBF I dont think that yer man did set it up intentionally, however when presented with the opportunity he gladly used it to wield his activism axe. And Ashers likewise obviously, you only have to look at the way they defended it as moral conscience instead of with the actual law, which they could have.

Its working a treat all around, somebody said no ones a winner...actually they are all winners
Ashers...publicity, publicity support for their stance = increased revenue
Lee....raised profile as an activist and his cause gets more publicity

Is Gay Supremacy the next Bourne film? as in the Bourne Gay Supremacy?

David McKeown

Although the Judgement isn't available yet I have read the summary and DJ Brownlie's early judgement and they are both well balanced and make sense. They strike a balance between ensuring that people are not discriminated against on the basis of their sexuality whilst at the same time maintaining the rights of the faith community not to be forced into anything in a commercial sphere that conflicts with their rights.

In order to maintain their religious freedoms Ashers simply had to stop producing cakes that supported either heterosexual and gay marriage. It's clear the difficulty they had was the word gay in this case.  They didnt have to make cakes with messages about marriage on them at all, once they chose to they couldn't then discriminate against those whose orientation they disagreed with which is what happened here. Gay marriage being so inextricably linked to a persons sexual orientation that the refusal to provide the cake amounted to direct discrimination.

The solution was simple if you don't want to adourn cakes with a message that supports gay marriage then don't adourn cakes with any message about marriage whatsoever.

Holding that because a particular message offends your religious beliefs you had a get out of jail free card would make a mockery of anti discrimination legislation. As would forcing Ashers to actively support a gay rights event. The judgement is reasoned and balanced. It is not gay supremacy or any of the other nonsense discussed on here.
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muppet

Quote from: David McKeown on October 25, 2016, 01:12:31 AM
Although the Judgement isn't available yet I have read the summary and DJ Brownlie's early judgement and they are both well balanced and make sense. They strike a balance between ensuring that people are not discriminated against on the basis of their sexuality whilst at the same time maintaining the rights of the faith community not to be forced into anything in a commercial sphere that conflicts with their rights.

In order to maintain their religious freedoms Ashers simply had to stop producing cakes that supported either heterosexual and gay marriage. It's clear the difficulty they had was the word gay in this case.  They didnt have to make cakes with messages about marriage on them at all, once they chose to they couldn't then discriminate against those whose orientation they disagreed with which is what happened here. Gay marriage being so inextricably linked to a persons sexual orientation that the refusal to provide the cake amounted to direct discrimination.

The solution was simple if you don't want to adourn cakes with a message that supports gay marriage then don't adourn cakes with any message about marriage whatsoever.

Holding that because a particular message offends your religious beliefs you had a get out of jail free card would make a mockery of anti discrimination legislation. As would forcing Ashers to actively support a gay rights event. The judgement is reasoned and balanced. It is not gay supremacy or any of the other nonsense discussed on here.

Very well explained. Thanks for that.

I particularly enjoyed the last line.  ;D
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