A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[playwiththewind1st]

No complaints, as long as they add a "none of the above" box to the ballot paper, to save having to spoil it.

[marty34]

Yeah, why do people go the bother of going to vote, then spoil their vote.

Makes no sense to me.  A complete waste of time.

[Harold Disgracey]

Thoughtful article from Stephen Nichols, a recently defeated UUP candidate.

Unionism at the crossroads

There are many lessons to be learned by Ulster Unionism arising from the council elections, many internal issues need to be resolved but there is one lesson that all of unionism needs to learn, based on this election the Union is at a real and tangible risk of being brought to an end.

Before anyone suggests that this is an attempt to lump the Alliance party or its electorate into a pan-nationalist front let me assure them it is not. Recent attacks on the Alliance party for its voting record were atrocious and self-defeating, though the defeats did not fall on those making the statements.

This is simply an assessment of the implications of the social change we are witnessing in Northern Ireland. As we move further from the history of conflict the definition of what passes for "normal" is changing and with it peoples aspirations. The vote for the Alliance party reflects that.

So why does this put the union at risk.

The DUP do not have veto on when a referendum will be called, voting for them will not stop it happening. After Brexit no government will call such a referendum and work out what it means after the result is known, instead in this case there will be, probably, years of negotiation covering every conceivable issue, pensions, welfare, citizenship, health, social care and all the rest. What people will vote on will be an agreement far more detailed and complex than anything produced for Brexit. And do not believe that the British Government will not contribute for many years to subsidise a United Ireland. Of course they will.

Within that agreement will be the vision of a new society, which will appeal to many not bound by the binary choice of the past. Unionism simply saying no will not save the union, wrapping the flag more tightly around our shoulders will not save the union.

To defend the union we must first define the union, not as it exists now but as an inclusive majority will want it to exist in the future. We must present an alternative to the United Ireland vision and we must recognise that the next generations have different priorities. Many of the social issues where people want change are part of Irish society, they are also part of British society yet ironically by remaining in the UK that change is denied to them in our wee country.

Having power in the short term and defining unionism in narrow terms across all aspects of people's lives will eventually lead to the end of the union. An open unionism, embracing all faiths and aspirations, defining civil and religious liberty in its broadest terms, committed to delivering the new society that people want and guaranteeing that being British means being an equal citizen within the UK represents the best chance of maintaining the union. Ulster once stood at the crossroads, unionism stands there now.

[playwiththewind1st]

"Thoughtful" is not a word that you could use to describe too many within the leadership tiers of Unionism & that causes problems.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Thoughtful article from Stephen Nichols, a recently defeated UUP candidate.

Unionism at the crossroads

There are many lessons to be learned by Ulster Unionism arising from the council elections, many internal issues need to be resolved but there is one lesson that all of unionism needs to learn, based on this election the Union is at a real and tangible risk of being brought to an end.

.....

Having power in the short term and defining unionism in narrow terms across all aspects of people's lives will eventually lead to the end of the union. An open unionism, embracing all faiths and aspirations, defining civil and religious liberty in its broadest terms, committed to delivering the new society that people want and guaranteeing that being British means being an equal citizen within the UK represents the best chance of maintaining the union. Ulster once stood at the crossroads, unionism stands there now.

I am not so thoughtful as just stating the bleeding obvious.  I have posted here before that I cannot understand how somewhere there isn't a paid adviser/strategist pointing this out to unionist politicians.

/Jim.

[smelmoth]

Thoughtful article from Stephen Nichols, a recently defeated UUP candidate.

Unionism at the crossroads

There are many lessons to be learned by Ulster Unionism arising from the council elections, many internal issues need to be resolved but there is one lesson that all of unionism needs to learn, based on this election the Union is at a real and tangible risk of being brought to an end.

.....

Having power in the short term and defining unionism in narrow terms across all aspects of people's lives will eventually lead to the end of the union. An open unionism, embracing all faiths and aspirations, defining civil and religious liberty in its broadest terms, committed to delivering the new society that people want and guaranteeing that being British means being an equal citizen within the UK represents the best chance of maintaining the union. Ulster once stood at the crossroads, unionism stands there now.

I am not so thoughtful as just stating the bleeding obvious.  I have posted here before that I cannot understand how somewhere there isn't a paid adviser/strategist pointing this out to unionist politicians.

/Jim.

I think there probably is but weak politicians looking for short term certainty and an easy life don't produce leadership or long term vision

[BennyCake]

Thoughtful article from Stephen Nichols, a recently defeated UUP candidate.

Unionism at the crossroads

There are many lessons to be learned by Ulster Unionism arising from the council elections, many internal issues need to be resolved but there is one lesson that all of unionism needs to learn, based on this election the Union is at a real and tangible risk of being brought to an end.

.....

Having power in the short term and defining unionism in narrow terms across all aspects of people's lives will eventually lead to the end of the union. An open unionism, embracing all faiths and aspirations, defining civil and religious liberty in its broadest terms, committed to delivering the new society that people want and guaranteeing that being British means being an equal citizen within the UK represents the best chance of maintaining the union. Ulster once stood at the crossroads, unionism stands there now.

I am not so thoughtful as just stating the bleeding obvious.  I have posted here before that I cannot understand how somewhere there isn't a paid adviser/strategist pointing this out to unionist politicians.

/Jim.

Unionism is like the schoolyard bully. He is all about degrading, humiliating, dominating its victim. He doesn't see a problem with any of that, nor stealing a kids dinner money. Does he stop and think that the kid will go hungry? Will be possibly scarred for life? Being depressed or suicidal? No, the bully cares only for himself. There's no talking or reasoning with a bully

Unionism was and is that bully. There's no talking to it either.

[Eamonnca1]

We once had a history teacher who was renowned for beating the crap out of pupils. It never crossed his mind that these youngsters would eventually grow up, and since he was such a short-ass he didn't seem to realise that his victims would end up bigger than him. When the inevitable happened and the kids grew up to be much bigger than him, he lost the ability to walk around the town without fearing for his safety. Any time a former pupil approached him to say hello in the street, he'd get as nervous as all hell because at the back of his mind he was wondering if he was going to get another dose of his own medicine.

That is pretty much the status with unionism today. It used to be that they feared an army of nuns and priests flooding over the border to convert them to the "one true faith." Today I think they're terrified that in a united Ireland they're going to get a taste of their own medicine with protestants sent to the back of the queue for public housing, "protestants need not apply" job ads in the paper, and council elections gerrymandered to within an inch of their life to obliterate all prod representation.

[trailer]

Protestants feared "home rule would be Rome rule". They were proved correct. Pity they made a mess of the North at the same time.

[Eamonnca1]

Protestants feared "home rule would be Rome rule". They were proved correct. Pity they made a mess of the North at the same time.

If the country had left the UK in its entirety then it would have been less likely that the place would have become a theocratic hell hole at either end of the island. Prods and Taigs would have been better balanced. There's no way a million protestants would have allowed the place to be overrun by the bishops. It could have been like the founding of the United States where there were so many competing denominations that they just had to compromise on the religion thing and make the constitution religiously neutral.

[weareros]

Protestants feared "home rule would be Rome rule". They were proved correct. Pity they made a mess of the North at the same time.

If the country had left the UK in its entirety then it would have been less likely that the place would have become a theocratic hell hole at either end of the island. Prods and Taigs would have been better balanced. There's no way a million protestants would have allowed the place to be overrun by the bishops. It could have been like the founding of the United States where there were so many competing denominations that they just had to compromise on the religion thing and make the constitution religiously neutral.

There was plenty of Protestants down South and they had to endure Catholic laws. Contraception was outlawed until the 1980s (every sperm is sacred) and divorce until the 1990s after a failed referendum in the 1980s. Parties like Sinn Fein and Fianna Fáil did not for example support the divorce referendum. It wasn't just bishops; the Catholic people and the Catholic politicians were every bit as bad. It took us an awful long time to grow up. It's no that long since half the country were gone mad chasing moving statues. Even some bishops were aghast at that nonsense.

[johnnycool]

Protestants feared "home rule would be Rome rule". They were proved correct. Pity they made a mess of the North at the same time.

If the country had left the UK in its entirety then it would have been less likely that the place would have become a theocratic hell hole at either end of the island. Prods and Taigs would have been better balanced. There's no way a million protestants would have allowed the place to be overrun by the bishops. It could have been like the founding of the United States where there were so many competing denominations that they just had to compromise on the religion thing and make the constitution religiously neutral.

There was plenty of Protestants down South and they had to endure Catholic laws. Contraception was outlawed until the 1980s (every sperm is sacred) and divorce until the 1990s after a failed referendum in the 1980s. Parties like Sinn Fein and Fianna Fáil did not for example support the divorce referendum. It wasn't just bishops; the Catholic people and the Catholic politicians were every bit as bad. It took us an awful long time to grow up. It's no that long since half the country were gone mad chasing moving statues. Even some bishops were aghast at that nonsense.

There were loads of other things these Bishops should have been aghast at but chose not to utter a word.

[armaghniac]

There was plenty of Protestants down South and they had to endure Catholic laws. Contraception was outlawed until the 1980s (every sperm is sacred) and divorce until the 1990s after a failed referendum in the 1980s. Parties like Sinn Fein and Fianna Fáil did not for example support the divorce referendum. It wasn't just bishops; the Catholic people and the Catholic politicians were every bit as bad. It took us an awful long time to grow up. It's no that long since half the country were gone mad chasing moving statues. Even some bishops were aghast at that nonsense.

This implies that Protestants were necessarily in favour of divorce etc. As current DUP policy shows, this idea that Protestants favour anything goes is bollix.

[weareros]

There was plenty of Protestants down South and they had to endure Catholic laws. Contraception was outlawed until the 1980s (every sperm is sacred) and divorce until the 1990s after a failed referendum in the 1980s. Parties like Sinn Fein and Fianna Fáil did not for example support the divorce referendum. It wasn't just bishops; the Catholic people and the Catholic politicians were every bit as bad. It took us an awful long time to grow up. It's no that long since half the country were gone mad chasing moving statues. Even some bishops were aghast at that nonsense.

This implies that Protestants were necessarily in favour of divorce etc. As current DUP policy shows, this idea that Protestants favour anything goes is bollix.

Yes, get that the DUP types are ultra conservative. But the main point is we were not a plural society. Catholicism ruled the roost. Sure even when our first Protestant president Douglas Hyde died, the majority of Catholic politicians did not attend his funeral. Fianna Fail stayed at home, and FG attended but decided to stay in their cars outside. And after all that man did for Irish culture. Lots of other examples. We sold babies sold out of wedlock. We banned books, forced teachers like John McGahern out of a job. We were a shocking bunch down South. And in a United Ireland we would still have been a shocking bunch. And if people like Padraic Pearse (a bigger headcase than Dev) got their way, we'd have been even worse.

[BennyCake]

And they banned 'The Life of Brian'!