Time for a post-catholic Ireland

[sid waddell]

I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.

That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.

Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.

You have either a very strange circle of friends or a very old circle of friends.

Because they couldn't be more unrepresentative of the habits of young people in modern Ireland.

[Eamonnca1]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

Of course it should still be allowed to exist. It's the church having an official role in state business that we're opposed to.

[Esmarelda]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?

As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.

Teachers also show people who to kick balls and sing.

And if they didn't there would still be plenty of non-teachers doing it. You reckon members of the clergy would fill the gap that teachers currently occupy if teachers didn't do it? I've spoken to a few teachers who have taught the communion year and they've all (three of them) told me that it eats into the time that's meant to be spent on other subjects. The priests swan in every now and then to make sure everything's on track but contribute very little to the preparations.

[Esmarelda]

I don't know what elevating the church to a pedestal or vilifying it does at this stage. I think you're all missing the mark of the need for a post catholic Ireland or even a Neo Catholic Ireland.

Ireland is no longer a Church run state, that much is clear. 2-4 more generations will cement that status. This is not a bad thing, frankly. Casual Catholicism is a very real thing - and the church will have to find a way to fit into Ireland now that Ireland no longer fits into the Church as easily as it did when the grip was vice like. The Church may decide not to pursue any changes in it's commentary on real life in 2018 and beyond, but I think it will and I think it will do so because it will not want to get left behind.

Those who deride Casual Catholicism can do so - but given the saints fall 7 times a day I doubt very much there's many folks around who haven't deviated from a teaching or behavior at times.

I challenge whether those who want to exclude the Church will give it any place at all in Ireland in the coming era? The aggressiveness shown on here alone would point to no.
It's an atheist Ireland where anything goes or bust?
Will you stand up and allow it to exist? Or is freedom of religion only reserved for non-christians? People on here have talked in their delight at the church's decline - I believe they won't be happy until it's done away with?

What does the bit in bold imply? That without a church there'd be chaos?

As others have stated, I don't think any non-believers give a damn if the church exists or not once it exists as a private institution. No place in public schools. It'd be interesting to see how the church and its members would prepare for communion, confirmation etc. without publicly paid teachers there to carry out these duties.

The bit in bold seemed fairly straight forward. Is it an atheist ireland or nothing? Atheist way only - no middle ground?

How will church members prep for sacraments without paid teachers? no bother at all.  Happens all over the world. Before we got married my wife ran religious education for 1000 kids after school with paid and voluntary teachers on the staff and children all prepped for the sacraments at their parents request.

My fear in all of this (this is more to puck and gallsman) is that the move away from religion and the church having anything to do with public life will be an aggressive one. Saints names removed from schools? Religion removed form schools? Saints names removed from football teams? Is this the will of all the people? Does it matter? I'm very saddened by it all.  I'd say your mother is too Puck (only mention her because you did).  Peace to you both

What do mean by "anything goes" in this hypothetical society you speak of?

[omaghjoe]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

Yeah, like religion doesn't fuel hatred.

Have a look at your own postings and what you've said about "sodomy".

I gather you live in the US.

Religion is a root cause of pretty much every negative ideology in the US.

Racism - check.
Prejudice against immigrants - check.
Climate change denial - check.
Poor education - check.
Opposition to abortion - check.
Opposition to transgender rights - check.
Opposition to universal healthcare - check.
Opposition to proper social security - check.
Support for tax cuts for the rich - check.
The gun lobby - check.
Neo-conservatism - check.
The pro-Israel lobby - check.

Slavery was justified by "Christian" ideology.

Religion is undeniably an overwhelmingly negative force in the US, just as it is in Ireland.

The Catholic church opposed racism, the global diversity of the church should be an example of this

Immigration is complicated but in the USA the Catholic church supported Obamas immigration reform

The Pope keeps harping on that we aren't doing enough about climate change.

Catholic church is broadly associated with excellence in education.

Opposed to the taking of life for convenience sake obliviously

Not sure that the Catholic church has a defined position on transgenderism perhaps you know the position?

Going by the amount of hospitals ran by Catholic orders

The rest of these I find hilarious:

Catholic church supports the Gun lobby, Neo conservatism, Pro-Isreal EH?

I'm pretty sure the Catholic church was one of the earliest opponents of slavery and is probably the biggest driver in removing its acceptance both in the West and in regions were it became the dominant religion.

I didn't specify the Roman Catholic Church. I specified "religion".

US politics is divided along cultural lines. People who self-identify as "Christians" overwhelmingly vote Republican.

"Christian politics" encompasses all the issues I mention.

White evangelicals are a massive driver of racism in the US. That ties into their opposition to immigration and support for plainly abhorrent Republican positions in general. Conservative Roman Catholics in the US tend to be pretty similar in their outlook to evangelicals, as Iceman has proved.

https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2018/4/30/17301282/race-evangelicals-trump-support-gerson-atlantic-sexism-segregation-south

The Iraq War, the starting point of the utter chaos that has engulfed the Middle East since 2003, was "a mission from God", according to the man who decided to start it.

Those who supported slavery invoked their "God-given" rights.

The creation of Israel as a country, and support for it elsewhere, particularly when it comes to murder and grave human rights abuses, is driven by religious fantaticism, both among Jews and Christians who are obsessed with a 2,000 year old fantasy.

You can justify anything with religion, really, which just goes to demonstrate that it should have no place whatsoever in public life.

The thread is about Catholic church, not religion in general but tear away with your straw man

I hardly need to point out that the worst genocides in recent History have been carried out in the name of atheism, often against those who practise religion

So is the Republican party the root of all evil for you? I used to think that too but then I actually considered some of the vast points position that align with that party and discovered that the facts are way more complicated than that. Id safely say most Catholics are evenly split between the two parties in America if you want to start Rep Bad Dem good either or fallacy nonsense nonsense. Youve got another nice logical fallacy going there too that all Catholics are the same as evangelical protestants and therefore vote Republican its called the association fallacy  in case your interested

There are plenty of Jews who oppose Zionism, you do get that is Nationalism and not religion that is causing the problem in the Middle East. All of those different ethnicity lived in relative harmony for centuries under the Ottoman Empire

You can justify anything without religion also. The Catholic church along with most of the main religions of the world draw a line in the sand with morality which allows society to move forward in the understanding that most of us will stay behind that line in the sand.

[bennydorano]

I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.

That could be a reflection of your circle of friends moreso Syf? I have a group of about 10 close friends, 7 never miss Mass, 2 are 50/50 and 1 never darkens the doors. So in my opinion the show ain't over.

Plus it's not as if you'd be an exemplar representative of today's society.

It's very much a reflection of society in this case. A very pointless and adversarial post from you. I usually don't take the bait but this one was just daft.

And you're more representative than therealdonald why and/or how?

[omaghjoe]

Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.

I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.

Joe, are you being disingenuous?

If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.

No... are you Esm?

A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality

Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?

No I wasn't suggesting that exactly, more that we would behave differently. But that is certainly a possibility since religion is most likely the largest influence on Western societal norms we do behave in that way

And yes that's exactly an example that I was suggesting with the atheist mother, cultural traditions are very strong and are maintained through generations.
Of course she could be convincing herself that she is doing it for some other reason, (Not sure how an atheist would reason what actions would be "nice to others" are or even choice is exactly without some sort of intuitive spiritual influence, but that's another story.) but more than likely it involves societal norms which have been shaped by Catholic theology.

Let's assume you're right for the minute and that "good behaviour" can be linked back to religious teachings. What relevance does that have to people's view on Catholocism as a whole in today's society. Surely one can reject something while accepting that it has its good points?

You could hardly be anti Catholic unless you reject everything that was introduced and espoused by Catholic teaching now could you?... It would make more of an a la carte anti Catholic wouldnt it?

[omaghjoe]

I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.

[Syferus]

I know exactly one person my age that are religious. The show is over I'm afraid.

..?

[omaghjoe]

Here's a quick copy and paste fo what Catholicism has done in the world:

1. Light and the cosmos

The Opus Maius (1267) of the Franciscan Roger Bacon (d 1292), written at the request of Pope Clement IV, largely initiated the tradition of optics in the Latin world. The first spectacles were invented in Italy around 1300, an application of lenses that developed later into telescopes and microscopes.

While many people think of Galileo (d 1642) being persecuted, they tend to forget the peculiar circumstances of these events, or the fact that he died in his bed and his daughter became a nun.

The Gregorian Calendar (1582), now used worldwide, is a fruit of work by Catholic astronomers, as is the development of astrophysics by the spectroscopy of Fr Angelo Secchi (d 1878).

Most remarkably, the most important theory of modern cosmology, the Big Bang, was invented by a Catholic priest, Fr Georges Lemaître (d 1966, pictured), a historical fact that is almost never mentioned by the BBC or in popular science books.
2. Earth and nature

Catholic civilisation has made a remarkable contribution to the scientific investigation and mapping of the earth, producing great explorers such as Marco Polo (d 1324), Prince Henry the Navigator (d 1460), Bartolomeu Dias (d 1500), Christopher Columbus (d 1506) and Ferdinand Magellan
(d 1521). Far from believing that the world was flat (a black legend invented in the 19th century), the Catholic world produced the first modern scientific map: Diogo Ribeiro's Padrón Real (1527). Fr Nicolas Steno (d 1686) was the founder of stratigraphy, the interpretation of rock strata which is one of the principles of geology.

Jean-Baptiste Lamarck (d 1829), a French Catholic, developed the first theory of evolution, including the notion of the transmutation of species and a genealogical tree. The Augustinian monk Gregor Mendel (d 1884, pictured) founded the science of genetics based on the meticulous study of the inherited characteristics of some 29,000 pea plants.

3. Philosophy and theology

Catholicism regards philosophy as intrinsically good and was largely responsible for founding theology, the application of reason to what has been revealed supernaturally. Great Catholic philosophers include St Augustine (d 430), St Thomas Aquinas (d 1274), St Anselm (d 1109), Blessed Duns Scotus (d 1308), Suárez (d 1617) and Blaise Pascal (d 1662). Recent figures include St Edith Stein (d 1942, pictured), Elizabeth Anscombe (d 2001) and Alasdair MacIntyre. On the basis that God is a God of reason and love, Catholics have defended the irreducibility of the human person to matter, the principle that created beings can be genuine causes of their own actions, free will, the role of the virtues in happiness, objective good and evil, natural law and the principle of non-contradiction. These principles have had an incalculable influence on intellectual life and culture.

4. Education and the university system

Perhaps the greatest single contribution to education to emerge from Catholic civilisation was the development of the university system. Early Catholic universities include Bologna (1088); Paris (c 1150); Oxford (1167, pictured); Salerno (1173); Vicenza (1204); Cambridge (1209); Salamanca (1218-1219); Padua (1222); Naples (1224) and Vercelli (1228). By the middle of the 15th-century (more than 70 years before the Reformation), there were over 50 universities in Europe.

Many of these universities, such as Oxford, still show signs of their Catholic foundation, such as quadrangles modelled on monastic cloisters, gothic architecture and numerous chapels. Starting from the sixth-century Catholic Europe also developed what were later called grammar schools and, in the 15th century, produced the movable type printing press system, with incalculable benefits for education. Today, it has been estimated that Church schools educate more than 50 million students worldwide.

5. Art and architecture

Faith in the Incarnation, the Word made Flesh and the Sacrifice of the Mass have been the founding principles of extraordinary Catholic contributions to art and architecture. These contributions include: the great basilicas of ancient Rome; the work of Giotto (d 1337), who initiated a realism in painting the Franciscan Stations of the Cross, which helped to inspire three-dimensional art and drama; the invention of one-point linear perspective by Brunelleschi (d 1446) and the great works of the High Renaissance. The latter include the works of Blessed Fra Angelico (d 1455), today the patron saint of art, and the unrivalled work of Leonardo da Vinci (d 1519), Raphael (d 1520), Caravaggio (d 1610, pictured), Michelangelo (d 1564) and Bernini (d 1680). Many of the works of these artists, such as the Sistine Chapel ceiling, are considered among the greatest works of art of all time. Catholic civilisation also founded entire genres, such as Byzantine, Romanesque, Gothic, High Renaissance and Baroque architecture. The Cristo Redentor statue in Brazil and the Sagrada Familia basilica in Barcelona show that the faith continues to be an inspiration for highly original art and architecture.

6. Law and jurisprudence

The reforms of Pope Gregory VII (d 1085, pictured) gave impetus to forming the laws of the Church and states of Europe. The subsequent application of philosophy to law, together with the great works of monks like the 12th-century Gratian, produced the first complete, systematic bodies of law, in which all parts are viewed as interacting to form a whole. This revolution also led to the founding of law schools, starting in Bologna (1088), from which the legal profession emerged, and concepts such as "corporate personality", the legal basis of a wide range of bodies today such as universities, corporations and trust funds. Legal principles such as "good faith", reciprocity of rights, equality before the law, international law, trial by jury, habeas corpus and the obligation to prove an offence beyond a reasonable doubt are all fruits of Catholic civilisation and jurisprudence.

7. Language

The centrality of Greek and Latin to Catholicism has greatly facilitated popular literacy, since true alphabets are far easier to learn than the symbols of logographic languages, such as Chinese. Spread by Catholic missions and exploration, the Latin alphabet is now the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world. Catholics also developed the Armenian, Georgian and Cyrillic alphabets and standard scripts, such as Carolingian minuscule from the ninth to 12th centuries, and Gothic miniscule (from the 12th). Catholicism also provided the cultural framework for the Divina Commedia (Divine Comedy), the Cantar de Mio Cid ("The Song of my Lord") and La Chanson de Roland (The Song of Roland), vernacular works that greatly influenced the development of Italian, Spanish and French respectively. The Catholic Hymn of Cædmon in the seventh century is arguably the oldest extant text of Old English. Valentin Haüy (d 1822), brother of the Abbé Haüy (the priest who invented crystallography), founded the first school for the blind. The most famous student of this school, Louis Braille (d 1852), developed the worldwide system of writing for the blind that today bears his name.

8. Music

Catholic civilisation virtually invented the western musical tradition, drawing on Jewish antecedents in early liturgical music. Monophonic Gregorian chant developed from the sixth century. Methods for recording chant led to the invention of musical notion (staff notation), of incalculable benefit for the recording of music, and the ut-re-mi ("do-re-mi") mnemonic device of Guido of Arezzo (d 1003). From the 10th century cathedral schools developed polyphonic music, extended later to as many as 40 voices (Tallis, Spem in Alium) and even 60 voices (Striggio, Missa Sopra Ecco).

Musical genres that largely or wholly originated with Catholic civilisation include the hymn, the oratorio and the opera. Haydn (d 1809), a devout Catholic, strongly shaped the development of the symphony and string quartet. Church patronage and liturgical forms shaped many works by Monteverdi (d 1643), Vivaldi (d 1741), Mozart (d 1791, pictured) and Beethoven (d 1827). The great Symphony No 8 of Mahler (d 1911) takes as its principal theme the ancient hymn of Pentecost, Veni creator spiritus.

9. The status of women

Contrary to popular prejudice, extraordinary and influential women have been one of the hallmarks of Catholic civilisation. The faith has honoured many women saints, including recent Doctors of the Church, and nurtured great nuns, such as St Hilda (d 680, pictured) (after whom St Hilda's College, Oxford, is named) and Blessed Hildegard von Bingen (d 1179), abbess and polymath. Pioneering Catholic women in political life include Empress Matilda (d 1167), Eleanor of Aquitaine (d 1204) and the first Queen of England, Mary Tudor (d 1558).

Catholic civilisation also produced many of the first women scientists and professors: Trotula of Salerno in the 11th century, Dorotea Bucca (d 1436), who held a chair in medicine at the University of Bologna, Elena Lucrezia Piscopia (d 1684), the first woman to receive a Doctor of Philosophy degree (1678) and Maria Agnesi (d 1799), the first woman to become professor of mathematics, who was appointed by Pope Benedict XIV as early as 1750.

The Galileo episode is probably one of the most misunderstood, and the catholic church was a bit maligned for it IMHO. They didn't object to his findings, they believed him. What they objected to was him going public with them without going through them first, they figured that the public needed time to adjust to the idea and the church was in a better position to handle it.

And yes, the church did set up a lot of scientific research later on. To this day the Catholic church deserves credit as being a Christian denomination that doesn't fight against the science of evolutionary biology, they accept evolution.

FFS
Your only married 5mins are going soft already Eammon!

Squaw valley... nice..btw

[Esmarelda]

Catholic doctrine has formed the basis of Western morality and ethitics. It permeates the very fabric of society like it or not: law, values, etc.
Sure wasnt the great derider of Christianity Niche frustrated at that very thing.

I would savely say that the majority of Irish and Western people still adhere to the vast majority of the doctrine in how they act out their life.
Same as there are a la carte Catholics (which all Catholics are to some degree or another) you also have a la Carte anti-Catholics who say they are opposed to church teachings but actually their personal values and especially in the action we take are actually probably broadly in line with it.

Joe, are you being disingenuous?

If an atheist treats others how he/she would like to be treated, this has nothing, necessarily, to do with teachings of Catholocism. The test of an "anti-Catholic" as you put it surely isn't to disagree with all catholic teachings for the sake of it.

No... are you Esm?

A great many reckon they are anti-Catholic/christian/theist even tho they will adhere to societal norms that were instilled in society from Catholic theology.
And most if not all of these norms were instilled in society from some sort of theism or spirituality

Are you suggesting that, was it not for Catholocism, that you and I would behave with little regard for others? An atheist mother rearing her child to treat others nicely is only doing so because her ancestors were brought up in a society influenced by Catholic theology?

No I wasn't suggesting that exactly, more that we would behave differently. But that is certainly a possibility since religion is most likely the largest influence on Western societal norms we do behave in that way

And yes that's exactly an example that I was suggesting with the atheist mother, cultural traditions are very strong and are maintained through generations.
Of course she could be convincing herself that she is doing it for some other reason, (Not sure how an atheist would reason what actions would be "nice to others" are or even choice is exactly without some sort of intuitive spiritual influence, but that's another story.) but more than likely it involves societal norms which have been shaped by Catholic theology.

Let's assume you're right for the minute and that "good behaviour" can be linked back to religious teachings. What relevance does that have to people's view on Catholocism as a whole in today's society. Surely one can reject something while accepting that it has its good points?

You could hardly be anti Catholic unless you reject everything that was introduced and espoused by Catholic teaching now could you?... It would make more of an a la carte anti Catholic wouldnt it?

I have to hand it to you Joe. You're a very skilled debater.

However, the thread, as I see it, is to do with catholocism's place in Irish society. I think it was you that used the term anti-catholic, however I'm not sure anyone else has used it or considers themself "anti-catholic".

There are those that believe in the god as taught by the catholic church. They consider themselves catholic. This god has a representative on earth and the teachings change with time. I don't think there's anything that says it's ok to not adhere to or not believe in the teachings as a whole. With that in mind, I find it strange that people consider themselves catholic when they knowingly don't practice as they've been taught to.

On the other hand, there are people that don't believe in this god. However, they happen to agree with some of the teachings. This may be down to education historically coming from the church but it's irrelevant as the whole concept of this god means nothing to them.

So I would say that if you consider yourself a catholic then the onus is on you to follow the rules in full, so to speak. Non-subscribers, I suppose, will act without this burden as they don't believe in it. They're not anti-anything, they're just not catholic.

[The Boy Wonder]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

Fair play to you Iceman for having the time and patience to challenge the onslaught against the RC Church in the wake of the referendum. Given the abominations that some of the clerical hierarchy were responsible for it can be difficult to stand up for this church but the critics should remember that laypersons comprise the vast majority of church membership – their criticisms can be deeply offensive to people who have lived their lives as upstanding members of the community.

Maybe the critics would clarify whether their criticisms are aimed at the RC Church in particular or at Christian Churches in general. It is difficult to engage in any debate where there is a scattergun approach by one side.

As a conscientious No voter I have found it deeply uncomfortable since the Referendum result last week. There's a certain element of open season on the RC Church in particular – this can be found online, in printed & social media and in general conversation.

Anyway Iceman, I would advise that you don't waste time engaging with certain posters such as Sid Waddell. There are certain fellas that are posting here morning, noon and night and will always have the last word. I could be wrong but I would guess that some of them spend a lot of their time pontificating on here whilst they are paid to be working.

[gallsman]

I have to hand it to you Joe. You're a very skilled debater.

Single most preposterous thing that's been mentioned in the whole thread.

[Esmarelda]

I have to hand it to you Joe. You're a very skilled debater.

Single most preposterous thing that's been mentioned in the whole thread.

[Syferus]

You know someone is just going to present the opposite argument and they've plenty of ammo in the last century alone.

Perhaps. But I don't think anyone can honestly stand up and say they haven't been a force for good in the world. And I can't stand by and watch while one side presents all their hate fueled arguments.

Fair play to you Iceman for having the time and patience to challenge the onslaught against the RC Church in the wake of the referendum. Given the abominations that some of the clerical hierarchy were responsible for it can be difficult to stand up for this church but the critics should remember that laypersons comprise the vast majority of church membership – their criticisms can be deeply offensive to people who have lived their lives as upstanding members of the community.

Maybe the critics would clarify whether their criticisms are aimed at the RC Church in particular or at Christian Churches in general. It is difficult to engage in any debate where there is a scattergun approach by one side.

As a conscientious No voter I have found it deeply uncomfortable since the Referendum result last week. There's a certain element of open season on the RC Church in particular – this can be found online, in printed & social media and in general conversation.

Anyway Iceman, I would advise that you don't waste time engaging with certain posters such as Sid Waddell. There are certain fellas that are posting here morning, noon and night and will always have the last word. I could be wrong but I would guess that some of them spend a lot of their time pontificating on here whilst they are paid to be working.

It's been open season on the church for a very long fûcking time. They painted a bulleye on their own arses through evil deeds, arrogance and exertion of control that at times made even the government itself cower in reveriantal fear. By the way, many 'laypersons' where fully complicit in the mother & baby homes and work houses run by the chruch so let's not pretend that they weren't hugely to blame for aiding and abeiting your precious religious order. You don't get to support an orgaisnation like this and not get dirt under your fingernails, either by simple wilful ignorance or active participation. The veneer of respectability has long since been striped away from the sort of people you profess to belong to with posts like this.

I can't believe that you're pretending like the referendum result that had feck all to do with the church materially effected that at all. I suppose the last resort for those who lose an argument and still don't want to admit they were wrong is to just invent things to make themselves feel better.