All-Ireland Football

[carnaross]

I see some of the so-called experts are calling for the scrapping of the Provincial championships. Interesting? I've been suggesting that for ages. The way I see the game moving forward to everyone's benefit would be as follows:

The eight quarter-finalists to be seeded (winners 1, runners-up 2, losing semi-finalists 3 and 4 etc). These provide the first county in each of eight gropus A - H). An open draw would then follow to fill each of the other three places in the groups. This will enable ALL counties to have a minimum of three Championship games and the winners of each group progress into the All-Ireland quarter-finals. The Provincial's could be played another time if the counties really wanted to keep them in place.

Thoughts?

[armaghniac]

If you abolish the provincials, then there is only one cup in the year, many teams will not win Sam for decades, but can aspire to a provincial championship.

[Hound]

Indeed, it would have to be split 16 for Sam Maguire and 16 for Tommy Murphy Cup.

4 groups of 4 with top 2 in each division making quarter-finals. Bottom team in each division in Sam Maguire play relegation playoffs.
Two teams relegated each year, replaced by winner and runner-up from Tommy Murphy Cup.

Then most teams would have aspirations of winning the competition they're in, and winning the TM Cup would have the equivalent value of winning the "Championship" (i.e. old Division 2) in soccer across channel.

But I dont see that ever getting buy-in from the counties.

[myball22]

you can have both running concurrently, more games and a knock-out provincial championship a bit like the premiership and FA Cup. It may mean the league may have to be re-thought though.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

...many teams will not win Sam for decades, but can aspire to a provincial championship.

Don't be so pessimistic, maybe just the one decade for Armagh 

[brokencrossbar1]

I have thought for some time that a Champions league Format would be the best way forward for the All Ireland.  Like Carnross has said 8 groups of four with then quarter finals for knock out.  It guarantees 6 games per team and will provide much more entertainment than the current League format.  I would scrap the League in its entirety and run the provincials off as a pre-cursor to the Championship.  This would then be used as a means to assess the seedings for the Championship.  If the fixtures are done out in advance then the club games can be worked around it much easier than the current format as there will be less games overall but more competitive ones.  

Obviously Leinster is the biggest province so it would have the most games.  For talk sake Dublin are in the earliest round of Leinster they would be likely to need to win 4 games to win the provincial.  They then have the League Format where they will play 6 games for the group placings.  1/4, semis and Finals and that is a total of 13 games for the season.  This, barring draws is the most that any county team will play and therefore club fixtures can be fitted around it easier.  With the advances in floodlighting too evening games will become greater options but given that most will be played over the summer months then this is less likely.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Definitely needs to be revamped, big time. The twin cup approach of Hound's could be a runner, but it will take not a little determination, vision and resolve from the powers that be to introduce something so radical, and I wouldn't think that Nicky Brennan's that man.

[magpie seanie]

I don't think there's too much wrong with it as it is.

[believebelive]

Scrap the league as it is and instead play for the provincial trophies at that time of year. Then have a straight 32 county knockout with a backdoor system.

The provincials are all but gone anyway. They do not really matter for the top five to six counties therefore each year they are becoming more and more devalued. Plus Cork and Kerry, if they avoid each other until the Munster final, are guranteed to get to the last 12 of the all ireland without having to break sweat. This is chronically unfair.

[magpie seanie]

The provincials are all but gone anyway. They do not really matter for the top five to six counties therefore each year they are becoming more and more devalued.

With respect the top 5 or 6 are not a majority. Tell any Sligo person in the next few weeks that a Connacht title doesn't matter or is devalued. If we win it tell us the same. People will tell you you are from Mars.

[Kerry Mike]

In principle I would welcome it but Counties will not vote to abolish the provincial championships. And they wont be ran as a stand alone competition either, they will just die like the railway cup if that happens.

The only time they tried running an all out open draw competition was in 1985 with the Ford Cup following on from the Centenary cup in 84. It was a bit of a novelty at first but never took off and if i remember the crowds were very poor by the time the second year came around and it was binned soon afterwards.

There is still something special about a provincial final no matter if you have won it 70 times or never won it and counties will not give up that part of their tradition.  And as we all know tradition and heritage plays a huge role in the matters of the GAA.

But all provinces go through times of strengths and weaknesses.

Ulster we are told is very equal at the moment and you have 3 or 4 counties all at the same level with a few lagging behind but thay have made good progress in the Ulster council to develop football but it hasnt always been so, Cavan had a virtual monopony on the Ulster title for a span of about 30 years back 50 years or more ago.

Leinster since the early Seventies has seen only Dublin, Offaly and Meath as the main challangers until recently with the breakthrough of Kildare, Westmeath and Laois, but now the Dubs have risen well ahead of the rest again.

Munster has been one sided for years as Kerry play against 5 traditional hurling counties. Cork have always pushed Kerry close and Limerick and Tipp have come close on more than one occasion to making the breakthrough in the last 10 years. We get these stories every year about how easy a route it is perceived Kerry have to a Quarter final. We can only play what is put in front of us and has been see in Munster over the last few years , Cork are well able to beat us so its not all plain sailing.

Connacht has always been split between Galway and Mayo with the odd appearance by Roscommon and the very rare appearance by Leitrim or Sligo

It is up to the counties themselves and the GAA to support the development of weaker football counties to become more proficient at football and vice versa for hurling and to hopefully see a more balanced championship in the 4 provinces and I think the lack of development of hurling in the provinces is a bigger problem than football.

[Fuzzman]

How can anyone realistically say its as fair for Munster teams as say Leinster or Ulster to win an AI?

How many All-Ireland have Kerry or Cork won where they only had to play maybe one tough game.
Even their recent victories usually consisted of one tough game either against Armagh or Cork and then easy wins v Mayo.
The level of intensity in Ulster is much higher, even if it does lead to uglier football but it means even matches against the 'weaker teams' can be tough enough. (Fermanagh)

In 2005, as Brian Dooher said in his speech
"We beat the Ulster champions(eventually), Leinster champions, Munster champions and the reigning AI champions."
We had to play 10 games with a couple of replays on the way.

Whereas usually teams from Ulster used to be so delighted with winning Ulster that they had already peaked and could never make it when they got to Croker.
With some provinces only have maybe 2 descent teams it seems only fair to open it up for 4 groups of 8.

[Fishead_Sam]

Just a thought but if they where to run the Proviencals & League as Competitions that decided your seeding for an Open Draw Championship, obviously the few extra games may meen the likes of the FBD be abandoned.

[believebelive]

I did not say that the Provincials do not matter to some counties. Of course it is great for counties, who rarely win Provincials to win them but my point is that they are not as competitive as they once were because the top teams know that they have a second chance.

Yes for counties such as Sligo, Fermanagh, Wexford, the provincial title is always their main goal and it would be fantastic for those counties to win it but in my opinion that win is devalued because other teams do not put the same emphasis into winning it as they do. Just because they (Sligo, Fermanagh and Wexford) don't see it as devalued doesnt mean that it isn't.
Before the backdoor everyone treated the Provincial Championships the same, i dont believe every team does now. Is winning a competition that all your competitiors do not treat as seriously as you as good as winning a competition that everyone is going full titl for? I dont think it is.
In my opinion anyway.

My problem with the current format is that it is blatently unfair. Some teams can look at peaking in August while others know they have to peak much earlier. It is an unfair system.

I honestly think it would be better for both clubs and county to radically change the whole system, shorten the season and scrap the provincial championships. Again just my opinion.

[Gnevin]

Scrap the league as it is and instead play for the provincial trophies at that time of year. Then have a straight 32 county knockout with a backdoor system.

The provincials are all but gone anyway. They do not really matter for the top five to six counties therefore each year they are becoming more and more devalued. Plus Cork and Kerry, if they avoid each other until the Munster final, are guranteed to get to the last 12 of the all ireland without having to break sweat. This is chronically unfair.

I think this year changes to the back door have made provincial title look very appealing when you look who you have to beat in the back-door

How can anyone realistically say its as fair for Munster teams as say Leinster or Ulster to win an AI?

How many All-Ireland have Kerry or Cork won where they only had to play maybe one tough game.
Even their recent victories usually consisted of one tough game either against Armagh or Cork and then easy wins v Mayo.
The level of intensity in Ulster is much higher, even if it does lead to uglier football but it means even matches against the 'weaker teams' can be tough enough. (Fermanagh)

In 2005, as Brian Dooher said in his speech
"We beat the Ulster champions(eventually), Leinster champions, Munster champions and the reigning AI champions."
We had to play 10 games with a couple of replays on the way.

Whereas usually teams from Ulster used to be so delighted with winning Ulster that they had already peaked and could never make it when they got to Croker.
With some provinces only have maybe 2 descent teams it seems only fair to open it up for 4 groups of 8.

Yet people say Galway in the hurling are held back by having the easy draw , it cant be both