English team you Follow?

[Flameboy]

everton are a bag of rancid shite.....consistently hire bad managers and garbage players..........

As Bill Shankly said "There are 2 great teams on Merseyside, Liverpool FC and Liverpool FC Reserves........."

[Hound]

was following liverpool since 1975 but become disillusioned with them and thair anti Irish policy under souness

Its gas how some myths continue to perpetuate no matter how ridiculous they are.

In Souness's first year in charge he did a big clear-out and sold David Speedie, Peter Beardsley, Steve Staunton, Gary Gillespie, Jimmy Carter, Steve McMahon, Gary Ablett, Glenn Hysen, Ray Houghton and Barry Venison.

Yet because there was two Irishmen in there, and he used to manage Rangers, he's anti-Irish.   

Utter nonsense.

If you want to go into specifics about the Irishmen who left, Souness preferred David Burrows over Stan because he was more a Souness type player, and he got over £1m for Staunton. And Houghton had lost his place on the right to Steve McManamon and so was happy to move on for first team football.

[lynchbhoy]

was following liverpool since 1975 but become disillusioned with them and thair anti Irish policy under souness

Its gas how some myths continue to perpetuate no matter how ridiculous they are.

In Souness's first year in charge he did a big clear-out and sold David Speedie, Peter Beardsley, Steve Staunton, Gary Gillespie, Jimmy Carter, Steve McMahon, Gary Ablett, Glenn Hysen, Ray Houghton and Barry Venison.

Yet because there was two Irishmen in there, and he used to manage Rangers, he's anti-Irish.   

Utter nonsense.

If you want to go into specifics about the Irishmen who left, Souness preferred David Burrows over Stan because he was more a Souness type player, and he got over £1m for Staunton. And Houghton had lost his place on the right to Steve McManamon and so was happy to move on for first team football.

so he sold the other Irish and wouldnt play the two remainining ones so he def wasnt an Irish lover

yeah that makes as much sense.

if you are a liverpool fan, you dont remember his selection policies around that time then...

the man made me disillusioned with lfc to the point where I dont really care about them at all

and I started supporting them as a child in 1975 and listened to all their 1996/1997 European cup games live on the radio.

[trueblue]

supported man utd as a cub but as i became older i started to support celtic. celtic would be my numb 1 team now tho ive started to take an interest in sunderland since quinn became chairman and keane manager.

i like to see most of the irish lads doing well so when they are im happy enough

[Hound]

Please elaborate lynchbhoy.
What other Irish did Graeme Souness not play?

Let me guess - Ronnie Whelan?
Can you remember why Ronnie didnt play all games under Souness?
I'll tell you why - its because he was always injured.

Ronnie was almost always in the team when fit, especially at first. He was in the team for most of Souness's first season. Scored a very important last minute equalizer v Pompey in the FA Cup semi-final, but went off injured in the replay. He recovered in time for the last league game and Souness put him straight into the team to give him every chance of making the cup final - but he only lasted an hour. Souness couldnt risk him for the final. Whelan realised there was no way he could start the final, but he was naturally very disappointed not to be on the bench. But in those days with limited subs, it was too big a risk for Souness and Ronnie Moran (who was making a lot of the decisions then as Souey had just undergone heart surgery) to take.

Season two though and Ronnie Whelan was back starting in central midfield. Souness started him in the first 10 games of the season, before he got injured again - an injury which sadly ruled him out for the rest of the season.

Season three saw an early injury to Jamie Redknapp which brought Ronnie back into the first team early in the season.  For 6 games in a row it was Molby and Whelan back in the middle of the field, both picked ahead of Don Hutchison who'd played most of the previous season alongside Redknapp. When Redknapp came back who was dropped? Whelan? No. It was Molby - I'm sure this was to the outrage of many conspiratorial perseuction complex holding Danes who said Souness was anti-Denmark. 

However after 4 defeats in 5 games, Whelan was eventually dropped for the first time since Souness took over (quarter-way through his third season in charge). Rising star Robbie Fowler was given his first league start and recent signing Nigel Clough was pushed back into midfield. Whelan got no more starts under Souness. When Souness was sacked he got a few games towards the end of the season, but didnt get a look in the following season as Evans went for Redknapp and Barnes in central midfield - perhaps he was anti-Irish also? 

So for his first two seasons Souness started Whelan every time he was 100% fit - only dropping him in year 3 when results were going from bad to worse and his job was on the line. I can see the definite bias alright   

Remind me of the other Irishman he didnt play who so deserved to be in the team?

As you will note, I did indeed follow Liverpool at that time and strongly believe that anyone who accuses Souness of anti-Irish basis is doing so with no basis whatsoever. I don't remember him doing anything regarding Irish players that I did not agree with at the time. Staunton was never impressive for Liverpool. Not a patch on the previous Irish left back Jim Beglin. Not that Burrows was any better but he did get stuck in more - but it was a toss of a coin. Certainly £1.1m for Staunton made sense at the time when it funded the purchase of a badly needed centre back - Mark Wright.

Ray Houghton played under Souness for most of his first season in charge but didnt have a great season and while still a decent player, at 30 had lost a yard of pace and was past his best. Steve McManamon had just emerged in that season, and finished it with a man of the match performance in the FA Cup final. Clearly McManamon was going to be first choice for the right side of midfield for the following season, so I was not overly surprised when Villa's offer was accepted for Houghton.  I don't think that anyone would argue that Houghton should start ahead of McManaman at that stage in their careers. Certainly Houghton could have done a job as a squad member (as could some of the other guys he sold), but I doubt Ray would have been happy with that.

So I repeat that saying Souness had an anti-Irish policy while at Liverpool because two of the 10 sales he made during his first year in charge were Irishmen is pure nonsense.  A myth probably started by some idiot like Cathal Dervan and perpetuated by sheep who dont know the actual facts.

[lynchbhoy]

Please elaborate lynchbhoy.
What other Irish did Graeme Souness not play?

Let me guess - Ronnie Whelan?
Can you remember why Ronnie didnt play all games under Souness?
I'll tell you why - its because he was always injured.

Ronnie was almost always in the team when fit, especially at first. He was in the team for most of Souness's first season. Scored a very important last minute equalizer v Pompey in the FA Cup semi-final, but went off injured in the replay. He recovered in time for the last league game and Souness put him straight into the team to give him every chance of making the cup final - but he only lasted an hour. Souness couldnt risk him for the final. Whelan realised there was no way he could start the final, but he was naturally very disappointed not to be on the bench. But in those days with limited subs, it was too big a risk for Souness and Ronnie Moran (who was making a lot of the decisions then as Souey had just undergone heart surgery) to take.

Season two though and Ronnie Whelan was back starting in central midfield. Souness started him in the first 10 games of the season, before he got injured again - an injury which sadly ruled him out for the rest of the season.

Season three saw an early injury to Jamie Redknapp which brought Ronnie back into the first team early in the season.  For 6 games in a row it was Molby and Whelan back in the middle of the field, both picked ahead of Don Hutchison who'd played most of the previous season alongside Redknapp. When Redknapp came back who was dropped? Whelan? No. It was Molby - I'm sure this was to the outrage of many conspiratorial perseuction complex holding Danes who said Souness was anti-Denmark. 

However after 4 defeats in 5 games, Whelan was eventually dropped for the first time since Souness took over (quarter-way through his third season in charge). Rising star Robbie Fowler was given his first league start and recent signing Nigel Clough was pushed back into midfield. Whelan got no more starts under Souness. When Souness was sacked he got a few games towards the end of the season, but didnt get a look in the following season as Evans went for Redknapp and Barnes in central midfield - perhaps he was anti-Irish also? 

So for his first two seasons Souness started Whelan every time he was 100% fit - only dropping him in year 3 when results were going from bad to worse and his job was on the line. I can see the definite bias alright   

Remind me of the other Irishman he didnt play who so deserved to be in the team?

As you will note, I did indeed follow Liverpool at that time and strongly believe that anyone who accuses Souness of anti-Irish basis is doing so with no basis whatsoever. I don't remember him doing anything regarding Irish players that I did not agree with at the time. Staunton was never impressive for Liverpool. Not a patch on the previous Irish left back Jim Beglin. Not that Burrows was any better but he did get stuck in more - but it was a toss of a coin. Certainly £1.1m for Staunton made sense at the time when it funded the purchase of a badly needed centre back - Mark Wright.

Ray Houghton played under Souness for most of his first season in charge but didnt have a great season and while still a decent player, at 30 had lost a yard of pace and was past his best. Steve McManamon had just emerged in that season, and finished it with a man of the match performance in the FA Cup final. Clearly McManamon was going to be first choice for the right side of midfield for the following season, so I was not overly surprised when Villa's offer was accepted for Houghton.  I don't think that anyone would argue that Houghton should start ahead of McManaman at that stage in their careers. Certainly Houghton could have done a job as a squad member (as could some of the other guys he sold), but I doubt Ray would have been happy with that.

So I repeat that saying Souness had an anti-Irish policy while at Liverpool because two of the 10 sales he made during his first year in charge were Irishmen is pure nonsense.  A myth probably started by some idiot like Cathal Dervan and perpetuated by sheep who dont know the actual facts.

nope guess again hound.
I cannot reme any other Irish players who souness did not play
but with an unbiased opinion at the time I personally recall his getting rid of all Irish - while I may not remember the names and stats , I certainly did not become disgusted and disillusioned for now reason. that he came from rangers mattered not to me, souness was one of my fave liverpool players and I was delighted to see him arrive.
Then after he started to destroy the team and imo what looked like a crusade against playing Irish players on the liverpool side - I soon took a huge dislike.
you can rationalise all you like now - so many years after the event.
At the time this is what it at least looked like and amidst all the crap sides he picked and rubbish players he bought in comparison with some of the albeit older players he let go
I am not a bit biased or in any way makeing it up.
Its no myth.
Only souness knows his motives. But whatever the motives were, he was rubbish and either got rid of or didnt play the Irish lads.
burrows better than staunton - you are having a real laugh. Stan wasnt the best in the world, but burrows wasnt even a div 3 footballer.

if you dont like my opinion, well thats that. neither you or I have the inside line on what went on in sounesses mind.

[Hound]

Thats unbelievable lynchbhoy.

"I cannot remeber any other Irish players who souness did not play"

You can't remember because there werent any!

"but with an unbiased opinion at the time I personally recall his getting rid of all Irish "

Thats great recall you have - he got rid of 2 Irish - Staunton immediately and Houghton after one season. Two out of 10 people he got rid of in one year - and certainly not all the Irish seeing as he did not get rid of Whelan. So you're talking shíte.

Whether either was a mistake or not is open for debate (as with other sales he made), but there were football reasons for both as I mentioned. To say that means it was anti-Irish is total crap.

"I am not a bit biased or in any way makeing it up.
Its no myth."

I'm afraid you are making it up - but you're not the only one. It is one of the myths that those who have no idea about the facts go on about.

Admit you're amazed that he only sold two Irish - because you didnt know the facts.

Admit you're amazed he played Houghton and Whelan almost all the time he was there while they were fit - because you didnt know the facts.

Admit you're amazed there was no other Irishman who he dropped or sold - because you didnt know the facts.

Its certainly a valid opinion to hold that Souness did a poor job as manager of Liverpool.
However, there isnt a shred of evidence to suggest he had an anti-Irish policy while at Liverpool.

[Billys Boots]

C'mon lynchbhoy you've been caught (again  ) - take it like a man.

[lynchbhoy]

Thats unbelievable lynchbhoy.

"I cannot remeber any other Irish players who souness did not play"

You can't remember because there werent any!

"but with an unbiased opinion at the time I personally recall his getting rid of all Irish "

Thats great recall you have - he got rid of 2 Irish - Staunton immediately and Houghton after one season. Two out of 10 people he got rid of in one year - and certainly not all the Irish seeing as he did not get rid of Whelan. So you're talking shíte.

Whether either was a mistake or not is open for debate (as with other sales he made), but there were football reasons for both as I mentioned. To say that means it was anti-Irish is total crap.

"I am not a bit biased or in any way makeing it up.
Its no myth."

I'm afraid you are making it up - but you're not the only one. It is one of the myths that those who have no idea about the facts go on about.

Admit you're amazed that he only sold two Irish - because you didnt know the facts.

Admit you're amazed he played Houghton and Whelan almost all the time he was there while they were fit - because you didnt know the facts.

Admit you're amazed there was no other Irishman who he dropped or sold - because you didnt know the facts.

Its certainly a valid opinion to hold that Souness did a poor job as manager of Liverpool.
However, there isnt a shred of evidence to suggest he had an anti-Irish policy while at Liverpool.

nope
while you can hold your opinion all you like as I hold mine
it was based on events at the time and not with any view a dozen years later

can you say for definite that souness did or did not have either a pro or anti Irish bias?
if so please prove this.
what you have said so far makes sense, but on the other hand the argument for dropping staunton at least destroys that
other than you can say that burrows in your opinion was a better player
thats a laugh

also
just because I have not dwelt on the matter , have not bothered remembering names and consigned it all to the past - does not mean a whole lot

I have moved on
and your rantings about where there was an agenda or not cannot be proven any more than my opinion from that point in time that he had.

[lynchbhoy]

C'mon lynchbhoy you've been caught (again  ) - take it like a man.

caught at what though Billy
it was my opinion at the time and I was a massive liverpool fan (having graduated from my fathers team  - leeds - at the age of 4 or 5)

this time I am not joking...or 'winding up' as they say !

If I formulated an opinion at that point in time it was for a very good reason.

Logic of it is whay would I do so when I was a fan of the club, a fan of success and fan of souness.

There were Irish players throughout the years that were rubbish, and while I like them , some are not good enough.

[AZOffaly]

Lynchbhoy, in fairness you are the one who said that Souness had an anti Irish agenda. It's up to you to prove the allegation true, especially considering that the facts and stats obviously imply otherwise.

In fairness I think you might be getting your clubs mixed up. I remember a 'Souness is anti-Irish' storm at Blackburn a few years ago. I think he basically sold or dropped 3 or 4 paddies (McAteer, Kenna, Duff, etc) but that was fairly much refuted along similar lines.

I remember Souness as a fella who came in and tried to impose a certain culture on LFC, and failed miserably because he tried to do it all in one fell swoop. A phased approach with an aging team might have been better. He also brought in players who were patently not LFC type players. That was his failing at LFC. I don't recall any anti-Irish bias there whatsoever.

[laoislad]

Im going to have to agree with Hound on this one
I think it was more of him being a bad manageer and making silly decisions in the transfer market that led him to selling players he did,i for one don't thnik he is Anti Irish,Jesus sure he fought tooth and nail to keep Duff at Blackburn..he didn't sell Given at Newcastle he played Andy O'Brien at Newcastle for feck sake
Plus after meeting the man himself in Dublin Airport he was a very nice genuine man who had plenty of time for a fella wearing a Ireland soccer jersey that being me of course and he even signed Robbie Fowlers book which i happend to be reading at the time,a book i might add that Fowler slated him in
Did selling Peter Beardsly make him Anti English orselling  Glenn Hysen make him Anti Swedish i dont think so..
The man made a few f**k ups like appering on front page of The Sun on anniversary of Hillsborough,and he definatly made a few f**k ups in transfer market like Julian Dicks but Anti Irish i don't think so..
Plus i actually though David Burrows was a decent player

[lynchbhoy]

Lynchbhoy, in fairness you are the one who said that Souness had an anti Irish agenda. It's up to you to prove the allegation true, especially considering that the facts and stats obviously imply otherwise.

In fairness I think you might be getting your clubs mixed up. I remember a 'Souness is anti-Irish' storm at Blackburn a few years ago. I think he basically sold or dropped 3 or 4 paddies (McAteer, Kenna, Duff, etc) but that was fairly much refuted along similar lines.

I remember Souness as a fella who came in and tried to impose a certain culture on LFC, and failed miserably because he tried to do it all in one fell swoop. A phased approach with an aging team might have been better. He also brought in players who were patently not LFC type players. That was his failing at LFC. I don't recall any anti-Irish bias there whatsoever.

maybe so
and I dont recall any anti Irish agenda at blackburn but I suppose I didnt care
my impression was made when following liverpool at that time.
co-incidence - maybe
but I believe so at the time

I believe he had an anti Irish agenda
or just happened to dislike those players who were playing well from the club , dropped or sold them and they happened to be Irish

but overall , yes he was a disaster of a manager and the start of the ruination of livepool - from which they have yet to recover from

[GalwayBayBoy]

I believe he had an anti Irish agenda

To be honest LB you'll have to back it up with more than just conjecture and heresay. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

Hound has at least presented actual facts refuting the claim which make his argument much more concrete.

For the record as a Liverpool fan I don't believe Souness was or is anti-Irish. He did however make a staggering amount of bad decisions at the club.

[lynchbhoy]

I believe he had an anti Irish agenda

To be honest LB you'll have to back it up with more than just conjecture and heresay. Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

Hound has at least presented actual facts refuting the claim which make his argument much more concrete.

For the record as a Liverpool fan I don't believe Souness was or is anti-Irish. He did however make a staggering amount of bad decisions at the club.

I cannot rem back then regarding the details
but I was hardly looking to dislike them
so there must have been a reason- or reasons

prob the selling of houhton the best in the game at that position to be replaced by the inneffectual mcmanaman
and the sidelining of staunton for the rubbish burrows

I dont have to prove why I thought that
if you cant trust your own opinion what can you trust

I know what you lads are saying and respect that- including hound
but it cannot be proven either way unless you get souness to admit to that - which is highly unlikely

but you cannot rubbish my opinion with what has been said.

sorry lads, the opinion was formed at the time and I fully believe what I thought then.

to make matters worse I hated beardsley and barnes playing for liverpool.
I was a fan of barnsey at watford but he and many others were not 'liverpool players' imo