Noam Chomsky etc

[ThomasMullan]

The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.

Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia.  Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?

As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.

[armaghniac]

Being anti-US foreign policy doesn't make John Pilger a Putin stooge, excusing Putin's war crimes in Syria, Ukraine or wherever make him a Putin stooge or apologist would be a better word.

Guys like John Pilger and Noam Chomsky lost the plot somewhere along the way - everything has to fit into their anti-West viewpoint.

John Waters, Gemma O'Doherty and Ewan MacKenna are similar.

Agreed - also just like BBC, ITV, RTE, Times, Indo etc do for the US and NATO. Sadly.

Itchy, if you lived in Lithuania, Latvia or Estonia, would you rather be a member of NATO or not a member of NATO? Bearing in mind you said, Putin bad.

Not a member of NATO. I might like to be a member of the EU though. Again, that's from the outside looking in. Of those 3 countries I have only been to Lithuania a few times. You don't have to look too hard there to find US soldiers in the hotels in Lithuania - why is that?

Ok, I asked the wrong question. Why do you think all the countries that were occupied by the Soviet Union/Soviet puppet regimes after WW2 wanted desperately to join NATO?

Because the Yanks have convinced them they will be protected if they do. Reality is that they instead provoked Russia and the Yanks and Nato cant help them now. Now you may say that Russia was not provoked and that Ukraine or whoever should be allowed to join whatever they want. Fair enough. But the Yanks didnt like it when Cuba was aligned with Russia and to this day have a melt down if you mention Cuba to them. USA and Russia are mirror images of each other. That is my point. It is stupid to thing one is morally better than the other. They are both selfish, self-serving tyrants and are ruthless.

Russia and the US are not mirror images of each other. Russia is a place whose economy isn't much bigger than Spain that is trying to pretend that they are still a world power, the US is not perfect but it has a much more positive role in the world. People want to go to the US from Russia, not so many in the opposite direction. 
European countries are right to join NATO and I doubt if the US will abandon them, unless that pr!ck Trump gets in.

[johnnycool]

The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.

Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia.  Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?

As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.

The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.

Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

[Itchy]

The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.

Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia.  Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?

As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.

How do you know that?

If you think I'm excusing Russia you can't read

[ThomasMullan]

The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.

Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia.  Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?

As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.

The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.

Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.

Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia.  Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?

As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.

The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.

Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

The US attitude towards Cuba is being used as another excuse for Russian aggression.

The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.

Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia.  Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?

As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.

How do you know that?

If you think I'm excusing Russia you can't read

It's quite clear you don't know much on the topic of which you speak. It look Lithuania 10 years to become a NATO member. It involved a lot of work and political manoeuvring and lobbying of existing NATO members on the part of the Lithuanians.

You excuse Russia implicitly. Have you ever said a bad thing about Russia in a sentence what didn't also mention the USA. Do you whitewash the crimes of Israel in the same way? Gaza bombed - Ah sure, everyone's at it, the Russians bombed Kyiv last week murdering dozens of civilians. That's what you and John Pilger and Noam Chomsky do for Russia. You even said they were 'provoked' - that's complete apologia.

[Itchy]

The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.

Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia.  Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?

As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.

The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.

Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.

Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia.  Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?

As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.

The US were planning on installing nuclear weapons on their bases in Italy and Turkey prior to the Soviets attempting to install them in Cuba.

Neither were in the Warsaw pact but they allowed the US to have nuclear bases close to Soviet borders.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here.

The US attitude towards Cuba is being used as another excuse for Russian aggression.

The Yanks didn't convince them of anything. They weren't persuaded, haraunged, cajoled or bribed into joining NATO. They asked to join, joined willingly and for a reason. It's the same reason that Finland has a formidable military and all their guns point in one direction.

Your talk of 'provoking' Russia just shows you up to be another Pilger or Chomsky really. You're de facto excusing Russia.  Have you ever condemned anything they have done without referencing that America is just as bad?

As for Cuba - can you let me know which former Warsaw Pact, now NATO member country that the Americans were in the process of installing Nuclear weapons on? It's a red herring argument from another era.

How do you know that?

If you think I'm excusing Russia you can't read

It's quite clear you don't know much on the topic of which you speak. It look Lithuania 10 years to become a NATO member. It involved a lot of work and political manoeuvring and lobbying of existing NATO members on the part of the Lithuanians.

You excuse Russia implicitly. Have you ever said a bad thing about Russia in a sentence what didn't also mention the USA. Do you whitewash the crimes of Israel in the same way? Gaza bombed - Ah sure, everyone's at it, the Russians bombed Kyiv last week murdering dozens of civilians. That's what you and John Pilger and Noam Chomsky do for Russia. You even said they were 'provoked' - that's complete apologia.

Go over on the Gaza thread and see what I say about Israel you utter clown. As for the rest of your gibberish, it's not worth responding to as even when I clearly say something you basically say I don't mean it.

[ThomasMullan]

I don't need to go to the Gaza thread to know that you don't attempt to excuse the Israelis actions by whatabouting someone else. Only Russia gets that service.

No need for the abuse, thank you.

[johnnycool]

@ThomasMullan,

The US attitude towards Cuba is being used as another excuse for Russian aggression.


The current US attitude towards Cuba is once again an utter disgrace from the US, but it all started with US aggression which the Soviets countered.

Now if the US start building "NATO" bases in Poland and the likes then yes, it's hardly a surprise that the Russians counter that in some way with the aggressive annexation of East Ukraine and Crimea which I don't condone.

Has the Ukraine Army a Nazi problem?  Well yes they do, but lets not talk about that.

[ThomasMullan]

@ThomasMullan,

The US attitude towards Cuba is being used as another excuse for Russian aggression.


The current US attitude towards Cuba is once again an utter disgrace from the US, but it all started with US aggression which the Soviets countered.

Now if the US start building "NATO" bases in Poland and the likes then yes, it's hardly a surprise that the Russians counter that in some way with the aggressive annexation of East Ukraine and Crimea which I don't condone.

Has the Ukraine Army a Nazi problem?  Well yes they do, but lets not talk about that.

Have the US attempted to install nuclear weapons in Poland? Until they do Cuba is a red herring.

In fact NATO is a complete Red Herring. Is Russia worried about an imminent invasion from Finland now that they are in NATO? No they are not. The only threat NATO poses to Russia is to counter their ability to bully, threaten and invade their neighbours, as in Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine. Which is why all the former soviet bloc countries, who know Russia best, wanted to join ASAP. It's very easy for us to criticise NATO, look at it from the point of view of a countries under threat from Russia.

And as for the 'Ukraine Army Nazi Problem', no let's talk about it. Tell me all about it please. Go.

And since Neo-Nazis are such a genuine concern for Russia, tell me all about Wagner and Rusich as well.

Russia also talks about the 'Nazi regime in Kiev (sic)'. They can't explain away the Jewish president of the Nazi regime though. Or the fact that in the Verkhovna Rada only 1/450 seats is occupied by a far right party. Compare that to France, for example, or any Western European country.

And take a look at what Russia actually is. It's a Mafia State that has now descended into open fascism.

[Dag Dog]

Tankie logic about Putin and Nato goes like, the burglar broke into the house because the owner provoked them by wanting to install an alarm system. What did they expect the reaction to be? It's the owner and the alarm company's fault.
There was never going to be any burglaries, until they started putting security in.

[ThomasMullan]

Tankie logic about Putin and Nato goes like, the burglar broke into the house because the owner provoked them by wanting to install an alarm system. What did they expect the reaction to be? It's the owner and the alarm company's fault.
There was never going to be any burglaries, until they started putting security in.

Correct. The burglar overheard the owner saying they were getting new security installed so they thought they'd better move fast.

Though in this case the burglar actually intends to become a squatter, wreck the house as well as stealing all possessions, rape the owner's family, take a sh*t in every room and kidnap the owner's children. And tell them it's for their own good.

[Dag Dog]

Tankie logic about Putin and Nato goes like, the burglar broke into the house because the owner provoked them by wanting to install an alarm system. What did they expect the reaction to be? It's the owner and the alarm company's fault.
There was never going to be any burglaries, until they started putting security in.

Correct. The burglar overheard the owner saying they were getting new security installed so they thought they'd better move fast.

Though in this case the burglar actually intends to become a squatter, wreck the house as well as stealing all possessions, rape the owner's family, take a sh*t in every room and kidnap the owner's children. And tell them it's for their own good.

And the other neighbouring houses now installing home security measures are completely overreacting and only provoking a peaceful and friendly burglar.

[ThomasMullan]

Itchy,

To answer your question (which was deleted, presumably because of your bad language):

The US has a military presence in different countries for different reasons. In the case of Poland, Romania and Lithuania, it's because the democratically elected governments of those countries have requested a US  military presence for security reasons. You will find that this is because of their friendly neighbour to the east, which has spent much of the last 30 years pulverising Moldova, Georgia, one of it's captive nations Ichkeria, and of course now Ukraine.

Perhaps you think that the Poles, Romanians, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians et al have it all wrong? Perhaps you have gained some experience from living under Russian occupation yourself? 

[Itchy]

So your reasons for the US having over 700 military bases outside their own country is because they were invited to help those countries where the bases are installed and they did this out of the kindness of their heart?

I am asking you about the motives of America, not Russia by the way. I ask as you do seem to be the resident authority on this topic so educate me.

[ThomasMullan]

I know you're not asking me about the motives of Russia, that goes without saying, because like Chomsky and Pilger et al, you have an ideology that everything is the fault of the US and every narrative will be twisted to fit that worldview. If war broke out again tomorrow between Lilliput and Blefescu, you would think the US was behind it.

I also note that I asked you a question you about the Poles, Lithuanians, Latvians, Estonians and Romanians which you completely ignored. Let's talk about their motives, do they even exist to you? Or do you just dismiss them as many of the anti-US commentators of today just dismiss the Ukrainians?

What motivates Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Romania to join NATO and request US/NATO forces on their territory?