26 County General Election 2020

[Angelo]

The idea that Michael Martin, the man who had his wife lodge money from a property developer into her account and subsequently doesn't remember introducing said property developer to then Taoiseach Bertie Aherne despite the meetings being recorded in diaries, is worried about the democratic practices of SF and who runs the party is risible.

Said property developer then made illegal payments to said Taoiseach.

And he has a problem with who might be running other parties.

[Hound]

I don't have an issue with SF party members consulting external members aligned with the party on matters, I don't see the issue there.

I do have a massive problem with parties disgraced with decades of bribery and corruption like both FG and FF are, these are the same parties pedaling the former as an issue for concern.

I think you have your gun cocked in the wrong direction if you are actually concerned about democracy and who is leading in the future? The ties between Denis O'Brien and FG are still very close.

What's your issue with Ted Howell?

your whattaboutery and refusal to answer the question is getting very boring. Don't reply to me and leave it to someone else if you can't answer the question. Maybe you just don't know. That's fine, but please go off on your tangents on some other thread rather than in response to me! 

I don't know that I have any issue with Ted Howell. The Dunphy podcast was the first I heard of him. I want to learn more about the future co-leader of our country so I can decide for myself. The issue doesn't seem a surprise to the Shinners on here so I'm sure someone can have a go.

It's balance and context, you're just a bit too dim to be able to square off your contradictions.

What we can see here is that you are absolutely steadfast in your reluctance to look at the two establishment parties down South and the decades of corruption that they have engaged in.

I haven't avoided any question. I have stated I don't have an issue with SF consulting people like Ted Howell (that's a reiteration) -  you do, which is confusing given your reluctance to address decades of corruption in both FF and FG and how the people who the strings for those parties, who historically have been wealthy businessmen with brown envelopers, offshore accounts and other gifts.

It's a huge contradiction, I can't help that you aren't able to explain your rationale behind that contradiction but feel free to try again.

Jeezus, you're a boring fooker.
You've bored everyone to death on the NFL1 thread by replying 57 times that your lad should not have got a red. Just because 57 people disagree with you doesn't mean you have to reply every time to repeat the same shite. Everyone knows your view. Leave it alone.
Likewise, here I know you think that FF and FG have had decades of corruption. I don't disagree but I could not care less what you think about TDs who were corrupt from any party.
If they're sent to jail then I will cheer from the rooftops.

I am interested in learning more about our future co-leaders Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson. Is Ted more important than the other two? You seem to be focusing on him (I hope he's not on to you). But you probably know nothing about them, so if that's the case leave it to someone else please, or go back to boring everyone to death on the Div 1 thread.

[BennyCake]

Micheal Martin has played right into SF's hand since the election. By dismissing them completely I can't help but feel that he is only bolstering support for them. FG have now joined the attacks in the last day or two and Drew Harris' comments yesterday about the SF links to the IRA army council being still intact are very curious in their timing. Continuing to bang the old IRA drum will have less resonance with people now that the old brigade are almost phased out even if a few linger in the background but for anybody under the age of 40, it is not a pressing issue. People just want to give the old established order of FF & FG a bloody nose and by them attacking SF it is only helping to feed the narrative of the establishment against the people that SF want to create. If they really are hell bent on not going into government with SF then I'm not sure what else they can actually do to win public support and confidence but I'd guess that the longer they keep SF out in the cold the more that the public anger will build.

It is a pressing issue for me; I don't want a political party being controlled by terrorists or shadowy figures in the background anywhere near the running of this country. The Chief policeman in the country was correct and had a duty to call this one out. FG have been consistent all along in their insistence that they will not deal with SF, not just in the past few days.

Of course for some it will still be an issue. I don't believe that if there are any figures giving advice in the background that they are still actively directing terrorism. Personally I think it would be best that SF are not admitted into government this time but it is going to happen sooner or later.  Are Fine Gael going to wait until all of the former IRA figures have died off before they will consider going into government then? Some people are so set in their thinking and feel so threatened as the old established order comes under threat, that they simply can't countenance SF in government at any stage be that now or in 15 years time. Unfortunately that is not democracy either.         

Surely excluding the most popular party from government is not democracy either? And as for the IRA, you don't seriously think that FG/FF's concern is actually about the IRA? It's extinct FFS. FF & FG are purely concerned about power & self-preservation and that requires stemming the SF tide at all costs and if that means going so far as to risk the peace process by trying desperately to conjure up the IRA at every opportunity, then so be it. They are morally bankrupt.

Yup, totally agree.

[Angelo]

I don't have an issue with SF party members consulting external members aligned with the party on matters, I don't see the issue there.

I do have a massive problem with parties disgraced with decades of bribery and corruption like both FG and FF are, these are the same parties pedaling the former as an issue for concern.

I think you have your gun cocked in the wrong direction if you are actually concerned about democracy and who is leading in the future? The ties between Denis O'Brien and FG are still very close.

What's your issue with Ted Howell?

your whattaboutery and refusal to answer the question is getting very boring. Don't reply to me and leave it to someone else if you can't answer the question. Maybe you just don't know. That's fine, but please go off on your tangents on some other thread rather than in response to me! 

I don't know that I have any issue with Ted Howell. The Dunphy podcast was the first I heard of him. I want to learn more about the future co-leader of our country so I can decide for myself. The issue doesn't seem a surprise to the Shinners on here so I'm sure someone can have a go.

It's balance and context, you're just a bit too dim to be able to square off your contradictions.

What we can see here is that you are absolutely steadfast in your reluctance to look at the two establishment parties down South and the decades of corruption that they have engaged in.

I haven't avoided any question. I have stated I don't have an issue with SF consulting people like Ted Howell (that's a reiteration) -  you do, which is confusing given your reluctance to address decades of corruption in both FF and FG and how the people who the strings for those parties, who historically have been wealthy businessmen with brown envelopers, offshore accounts and other gifts.

It's a huge contradiction, I can't help that you aren't able to explain your rationale behind that contradiction but feel free to try again.

Jeezus, you're a boring fooker.
You've bored everyone to death on the NFL1 thread by replying 57 times that your lad should not have got a red. Just because 57 people disagree with you doesn't mean you have to reply every time to repeat the same shite. Everyone knows your view. Leave it alone.
Likewise, here I know you think that FF and FG have had decades of corruption. I don't disagree but I could not care less what you think about TDs who were corrupt from any party.
If they're sent to jail then I will cheer from the rooftops.

I am interested in learning more about our future co-leaders Ted Howell, Martin Lynch and Padraig Wilson. Is Ted more important than the other two? You seem to be focusing on him (I hope he's not on to you). But you probably know nothing about them, so if that's the case leave it to someone else please, or go back to boring everyone to death on the Div 1 thread.

You could not care less about FF FG corruption. I already gathered that but nice at the same time for you to admit it.

I don't see it as a huge issue, they seem to be trusted by the party for the advice and consultation.

Leo Varadkar spends half a million on his spin doctors a year, are you worried about that?

All I have pointed out is that your focus is extremely odd, you seem to not give a jot about corruption and you get incredibly hostile and abusive when this is brought into the debate.

Maybe you should go and have a cup of tea, sweetheart.

[BennyCake]

Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?

Was Michael Collins a terrorist?

[Angelo]

Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?

Was Michael Collins a terrorist?

Careful now, the establishment shills will accuse you of whataboutery.

[Rossfan]

Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?

Was Michael Collins a terrorist?

He terrorised the fck out of the RIC and the Cairo gang among others.
He was acting on behalf of Dáil Éireann representing a majority of the Irish people who voted for a pro Independence party.
That's in the past like 1970-1998.
Anyway why isnt Maryloo trying to convert enough of those who abstained or voted against her Taoiseach nomination rather than having rallies?
There are 6 SPD, 9 "Regional Group" Indos 5 Matty McGrath Group Indos and 12 Greens.
That's 32 plus the 45 who voted for her.
Try and get Labour to abstain on the Taoiseach vote and she wins 77-76.
Maybe try and get Harkin and Fitzmaurice to vote for her or abstain. That's 77 or 79 v 74.

[Angelo]

Seen it defined as "a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims." Which is accurate enough.

Gardai/PSNI can't bring people before the courts for this because they presumably don't have enough evidence or can't get people to testify because of fear.
Why do SF have problems with the special criminal court, a body that has done so much to put serious criminals and terrorists behind bars and make the country safer?

Was Michael Collins a terrorist?

He terrorised the fck out of the RIC and the Cairo gang among others.
He was acting on behalf of Dáil Éireann representing a majority of the Irish people who voted for a pro Independence party.
That's in the past like 1970-1998.
Anyway why isnt Maryloo trying to convert enough of those who abstained or voted against her Taoiseach nomination rather than having rallies?
There are 6 SPD, 9 "Regional Group" Indos 5 Matty McGrath Group Indos and 12 Greens.
That's 32 plus the 45 who voted for her.
Try and get Labour to abstain on the Taoiseach vote and she wins 77-76.
Maybe try and get Harkin and Fitzmaurice to vote for her or abstain. That's 77 or 79 v 74.

Don't forget the civilians and informants too.

[weareros]

Rallies are fine so long as they are not a protest against our parliamentary democracy. Fianna Fáil often were the most popular party in the 40%+ range but were denied a place in government due to a coalition of FG and Labour. Mary Lou could indeed be Taoiseach if SF can get rest on board but I suspect after meeting the Greens discovered their worst fears: they are Fine Gaelers on Bikes, as the Phoenix memorably put it.

[Rossfan]

And around 14 Independents are dissident FFrs and FGrs.
However compromise is part of politics and compromise she (or Ted Howell or whoever ) will have to do if she wants to be Taoiseach as tgere are only 57 leftish TDs in the Dáil.

[omaghjoe]

Rallies are fine so long as they are not a protest against our parliamentary democracy. Fianna Fáil often were the most popular party in the 40%+ range but were denied a place in government due to a coalition of FG and Labour. Mary Lou could indeed be Taoiseach if SF can get rest on board but I suspect after meeting the Greens discovered their worst fears: they are Fine Gaelers on Bikes, as the Phoenix memorably put it.

One of the most accurate characterisations of an Irish political party ive heard in a wile

[magpie seanie]

And around 14 Independents are dissident FFrs and FGrs.
However compromise is part of politics and compromise she (or Ted Howell or whoever ) will have to do if she wants to be Taoiseach as tgere are only 57 leftish TDs in the Dáil.

Your underlying point stands but I can get into the 70's on leftish TD's without stretching it too much. SF + Green + SD + Lab+ PbP = 66. Plus Toibín*, Joan Collins, Catherine Connolly, Thomas Pringle, Carol Nolan*, Michael McNamara. That's 73 though I accept SF would have trouble with their former members*. I'd expect Harkin and and Cathal Berry to be easy to get onside in terms of policy. It starts to get difficult after that though a lot of the former FF/FG cohort and well as the right wingers like Grealish would do a deal with anyone. So I don't think SF's prospects of leading a government are totally dead but when you do the numbers it gets harder. Especially with Labour going out on strike in favour of their former coalition partners.

If the Greens go in with FF/FG I'll never give them a vote again. I also believe a FF/FG led government, while awful, would guarantee a left wing government next time. And destroy one or both of those parties. Which is a good second prize.

[Rossfan]

A FF/FG/Greens Government which would take serious steps to deal with the housing crisis and get on with implementing Sláintecare might well send SF back to their 15% or worse.
However the chances of FF/FG doing the above are slim based on the last 3 years.
They'd need to "CHANGE"
But in the meantime SF need to do more than repeating  the mantra "people voted for change'.

[magpie seanie]

Ya - I'd put the chances of FF/FG/Green delivering on Housing, Healthcare and the environment at about 10%. I'd give a SF government about a 40% chance of delivering assuming they got the stability needed to take the decisions needed.

[five points]

Ya - I'd put the chances of FF/FG/Green delivering on Housing, Healthcare and the environment at about 10%. I'd give a SF government about a 40% chance of delivering assuming they got the stability needed to take the decisions needed.

10% too generous for the former. 40% for the latter.

The Greens and Green-influenced FF/FG want no new housing, anywhere. SF want new state-built housing but the state hasn't the funds and borrowing tens of billions more is no longer an option since 2010.