Would you be in favour of a second tier?

[magpie seanie]

Honestly don't understand the outcry at the introduction of a tier 2 competition. I can only think it's a lack of understanding of the proposal. When this poll was opened up I voted "undecided". After considering the actual proposals when they arrived I was in favour. And here's why:

1. Every county is still in the Tier 1 championship at the start of the year. If you make your provincial final, you continue on the road for Sam Maguire. Fermanagh and Laois were part of this "elite" group last year (2018). Clare/Tipp or Waterford will be in 2020.
2. Current Division 3 counties can get promoted next spring and "avoid" the tier 2 competition. The "reward" if they fail to win their province is a qualifier in a competition simply they cannot win.
3. The priority for any Division 4 county aiming to progress MUST be getting promoted out of Division 4. Why is it better for them to get a qualifier in a competition they cannot win than a game (or 2 or 3) in a championship they could do well in? I don't see that logic.
4. The winner of this competition is guaranteed to be in the Tier 1 championship the following season. A good incentive and opportunity to build on their success.

So the pathways to advance are there on several fronts. There's no reason why couties should be cut adrift forever. Here are the current Division 3 and 4 counties with their last provincial final appearance in brackets: Cork (2019), Derry (2011), Down (2017), Leitrim (2000), Longford (1968), Louth (2010), Offaly (2006), Tipperary (2016).  Antrim (2009), Carlow (1944), Limerick (2010), London (2013) , Sligo (2015), Waterford (1960), Wexford (2011), Wicklow (1897). 12 of the 16 have made a provincial final since the turn of the millenium. Several have been in Division 2 and higher in recent times.

I would share concerns about promotion etc but what coverage do these counties get in their current qualifier games, unless they draw a big gun?

Seanie, what issues do the introduction of the Tier 2 competition address and improve? Who benefits from this and in what way?

It's a good question.

(1) I think it gives lower division sides a realitistic shot at winning an All Ireland title. (2) It gives the prospect of more games for intercounty players in those counties (I strongly suspect format will evolve and quite quickly to provide those games that the players want). Both of these I think are good things. (3) It takes out a round or two of meaningless qualifiers. Qualifiers were great in their initial stages with novel matchups etc but pretty soon harsh reality kicked in. Players have voted with their feet....going to the US as soon as they lost in provincial championships in recent times. The Tier 2 championship can give counties that chance of going on a run without the inevitable beating at the end. That can offer the chance of extra revenue generation (debatable I hear people say but the level of interest in the qualifiers doesn't make that a high bar).

Whether we like it our not the levels between the top teams and lower teams have widened in the last 25 years. Remember when the league quarter finals had 4 from D1, 2 from D2 and the winners of D3 and D4? And often the D3 and D4 winners would do quite well in the knockout stages. This simply wouldn't happen nowadays.

I'm not overjoyed about it. I think we should be focusing on the D3/D4 counties, especially those who've been stuck there for a long time, and try to improve standards. This would be preferable. However I don't see it happening in the short term so I'd feel this is worth a shot for now.

[Blowitupref]

Honestly don't understand the outcry at the introduction of a tier 2 competition. I can only think it's a lack of understanding of the proposal. When this poll was opened up I voted "undecided". After considering the actual proposals when they arrived I was in favour. And here's why:

1. Every county is still in the Tier 1 championship at the start of the year. If you make your provincial final, you continue on the road for Sam Maguire. Fermanagh and Laois were part of this "elite" group last year (2018). Clare/Tipp or Waterford will be in 2020.
2. Current Division 3 counties can get promoted next spring and "avoid" the tier 2 competition. The "reward" if they fail to win their province is a qualifier in a competition simply they cannot win.
3. The priority for any Division 4 county aiming to progress MUST be getting promoted out of Division 4. Why is it better for them to get a qualifier in a competition they cannot win than a game (or 2 or 3) in a championship they could do well in? I don't see that logic.
4. The winner of this competition is guaranteed to be in the Tier 1 championship the following season. A good incentive and opportunity to build on their success.

So the pathways to advance are there on several fronts. There's no reason why couties should be cut adrift forever. Here are the current Division 3 and 4 counties with their last provincial final appearance in brackets: Cork (2019), Derry (2011), Down (2017), Leitrim (2000), Longford (1968), Louth (2010), Offaly (2006), Tipperary (2016).  Antrim (2009), Carlow (1944), Limerick (2010), London (2013) , Sligo (2015), Waterford (1960), Wexford (2011), Wicklow (1897). 12 of the 16 have made a provincial final since the turn of the millenium. Several have been in Division 2 and higher in recent times.

I would share concerns about promotion etc but what coverage do these counties get in their current qualifier games, unless they draw a big gun?

Seanie, what issues do the introduction of the Tier 2 competition address and improve? Who benefits from this and in what way?

It's a good question.

(1) I think it gives lower division sides a realitistic shot at winning an All Ireland title. (2) It gives the prospect of more games for intercounty players in those counties (I strongly suspect format will evolve and quite quickly to provide those games that the players want). Both of these I think are good things. (3) It takes out a round or two of meaningless qualifiers. Qualifiers were great in their initial stages with novel matchups etc but pretty soon harsh reality kicked in. Players have voted with their feet....going to the US as soon as they lost in provincial championships in recent times. The Tier 2 championship can give counties that chance of going on a run without the inevitable beating at the end. That can offer the chance of extra revenue generation (debatable I hear people say but the level of interest in the qualifiers doesn't make that a high bar).

Whether we like it our not the levels between the top teams and lower teams have widened in the last 25 years. Remember when the league quarter finals had 4 from D1, 2 from D2 and the winners of D3 and D4? And often the D3 and D4 winners would do quite well in the knockout stages. This simply wouldn't happen nowadays.

I'm not overjoyed about it. I think we should be focusing on the D3/D4 counties, especially those who've been stuck there for a long time, and try to improve standards. This would be preferable. However I don't see it happening in the short term so I'd feel this is worth a shot for now.

I remember that well and since that was scrapped there is a case to make that the gap between the top and bottom divisions teams commenced because of it.

[macdanger2]

I was in favor of it.

However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.
Give me that V an U17 game.

In addition, as I mentioned previously, the Divison 3 and 4 counties need to get huge funding for " COACHING" (there are too many clowns involved just to think that giving them money will solve anything), it should be a case of here are twenty coaches fore your schools/clubs , use them or lose them. 
Then the respective county boards cannot come back in five years and say, we weren't treated fairly.
simplistic but I think a start.

There are 32 teams across 4 divisions so there will always be 'failing' teams.  It is a zero sum game.  To fix the failing teams by giving them extra coaching they would get promoted which would create new failing teams..

That's what the GAA should be doing though, giving the most resources to the teams that are struggling the most (along with a framework that ensures that the money isn't just wasted) to try to ensure some balance between counties.

[magpie seanie]

I was in favor of it.

However, The GAA have to play it before the senior A final in Croke Park. No Bullshit excuses, otherwise it is DOA.
Give me that V an U17 game.

In addition, as I mentioned previously, the Divison 3 and 4 counties need to get huge funding for " COACHING" (there are too many clowns involved just to think that giving them money will solve anything), it should be a case of here are twenty coaches fore your schools/clubs , use them or lose them. 
Then the respective county boards cannot come back in five years and say, we weren't treated fairly.
simplistic but I think a start.

There are 32 teams across 4 divisions so there will always be 'failing' teams.  It is a zero sum game.  To fix the failing teams by giving them extra coaching they would get promoted which would create new failing teams..

That's what the GAA should be doing though, giving the most resources to the teams that are struggling the most (along with a framework that ensures that the money isn't just wasted) to try to ensure some balance between counties.

Absolutely agree on this. We need 32 strong counties ideally.

[Esmarelda]

Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.

[Rossfan]

Seems Rhubarbia didnt send any delegates to the Special Congress 

[sligoman2]

Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.

You are correct that half the teams will only get two games but hopefully the loss margin in the second game will be much lower than if the team played a Div 1 or Div 2 team.  We all know Sligo had a few upsets in the backdoor over the years but it was always a question of time before we were knocked out. In this competition, we may have a chance to get to a final or semi-final or perhaps win and thats not happening under the current format.  It becomes a question of if we will lose not when we will lose and that can a very good thing for smaller counties.

As I said before, time will tell but I for one am hopeful that this gets legs and get the support it deserves from HQ and the media....

[t_mac]

Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.

You are correct that half the teams will only get two games but hopefully the loss margin in the second game will be much lower than if the team played a Div 1 or Div 2 team.  We all know Sligo had a few upsets in the backdoor over the years but it was always a question of time before we were knocked out. In this competition, we may have a chance to get to a final or semi-final or perhaps win and thats not happening under the current format.  It becomes a question of if we will lose not when we will lose and that can a very good thing for smaller counties.

As I said before, time will tell but I for one am hopeful that this gets legs and get the support it deserves from HQ and the media....

I doubt that is what players will think, togging out for an irrelevant competition.

[Farrandeelin]

Seems Rhubarbia didnt send any delegates to the Special Congress 

It's a disgrace, but no surprise. 

[Ringfort]

Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.

You are correct that half the teams will only get two games but hopefully the loss margin in the second game will be much lower than if the team played a Div 1 or Div 2 team.  We all know Sligo had a few upsets in the backdoor over the years but it was always a question of time before we were knocked out. In this competition, we may have a chance to get to a final or semi-final or perhaps win and thats not happening under the current format.  It becomes a question of if we will lose not when we will lose and that can a very good thing for smaller counties.

As I said before, time will tell but I for one am hopeful that this gets legs and get the support it deserves from HQ and the media....

I doubt that is what players will think, togging out for an irrelevant competition.

I assume you are from a big senior club in your county?

Do you look at your junior and intermediate competitions as irrelevant? I assure you there are not to those that win them  if that is their usual level.

[t_mac]

Good effort Seanie, but your points are fairly easily challenged I feel. It gives I'd say less than half the teams a chance of a national championship. Half of those affected voted against it.

Thinking that it will evolve into extra games is hardly relevant. It certainly won't evolve in the next three years so half of those teams will still get only two games.

There were any amount of alternatives that had more merit than what we've ended up with. And that's before we get into the rush to get it through, the two player unions being against it and the fixture review committee being in the middle of their work.

You are correct that half the teams will only get two games but hopefully the loss margin in the second game will be much lower than if the team played a Div 1 or Div 2 team.  We all know Sligo had a few upsets in the backdoor over the years but it was always a question of time before we were knocked out. In this competition, we may have a chance to get to a final or semi-final or perhaps win and thats not happening under the current format.  It becomes a question of if we will lose not when we will lose and that can a very good thing for smaller counties.

As I said before, time will tell but I for one am hopeful that this gets legs and get the support it deserves from HQ and the media....

I doubt that is what players will think, togging out for an irrelevant competition.

I assume you are from a big senior club in your county?

Do you look at your junior and intermediate competitions as irrelevant? I assure you there are not to those that win them  if that is their usual level.

But it's not a junior or intermediate competition, it's a piss off and leave the elite alone competition.

[Rossfan]

T mac needs to join Benny in the Counselling clinic.

[t_mac]

T mac needs to join Benny in the Counselling clinic.

For why?

[Rossfan]

Tier 2 syndrome

[t_mac]

Tier 2 syndrome

You sound like a member of the I am alright to hell with the rest type, which is obviously the mentality of the hierarchy of the GAA coming up with this idea.