Distressing news this evening:
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/bodies-of-three-children-found-at-house-in-dublin-1.4150644 (https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/bodies-of-three-children-found-at-house-in-dublin-1.4150644)
It doesn't get much more awful than this. God help them.
If it's true what they're saying. What the hell happens in a persons mind. f**k sake top urself and don't be a f**king shellfish bastard.
We had a similar case near us a few years ago.
https://www.sfweekly.com/news/when-a-mother-is-tried-for-murder-the-case-of-linda-woo/ (https://www.sfweekly.com/news/when-a-mother-is-tried-for-murder-the-case-of-linda-woo/)
It'd give you the shivers reading about it.
The reporting and narrative is different than the Hawe case.
Was the mother the one at the scene?
Yeah it says in the rte news page the woman is believed to be the childrens mother. Double checked that too.
'Extended family' situation?
Quote from: mouview on January 25, 2020, 07:37:57 PM
'Extended family' situation?
Doesn't look like it.
But f**k it, FFG slashed mental health budgets. This is collateral
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 26, 2020, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: mouview on January 25, 2020, 07:37:57 PM
'Extended family' situation?
Doesn't look like it.
But f**k it, FFG slashed mental health budgets. This is collateral
So woman equals mental health, man equals evil.
This is not mental health and to say so is a massive insult to people fighting depression.
This was pure evil.
Quote from: mrdeeds on January 25, 2020, 02:12:10 PM
The reporting and narrative is different than the Hawe case.
In the Hawe case the other parent was also murdered so it had a violence against women angle.
The murder of ones children is impossible to understand.
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 26, 2020, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: mouview on January 25, 2020, 07:37:57 PM
'Extended family' situation?
Doesn't look like it.
But f**k it, FFG slashed mental health budgets. This is collateral
No it's not. There has never been more emphasis than now on seeking help, contacting support services, reaching out and talking to people. Not every thing, big or small, that goes wrong in the country is the government's fault. People have to take more responsibility for their own decisions, well being, paths in life etc.
Quote from: mouview on January 26, 2020, 11:51:53 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 26, 2020, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: mouview on January 25, 2020, 07:37:57 PM
'Extended family' situation?
Doesn't look like it.
But f**k it, FFG slashed mental health budgets. This is collateral
No it's not. There has never been more emphasis than now on seeking help, contacting support services, reaching out and talking to people. Not every thing, big or small, that goes wrong in the country is the government's fault. People have to take more responsibility for their own decisions, well being, paths in life etc.
Well said, every week there is something bad on the news and its always the governments fault or the lack of support etc. There seems to always have to be someone to blame. At the end of the day, its people committing these actions as a result of decisions they chose to make.
Quote from: mouview on January 26, 2020, 11:51:53 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 26, 2020, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: mouview on January 25, 2020, 07:37:57 PM
'Extended family' situation?
Doesn't look like it.
But f**k it, FFG slashed mental health budgets. This is collateral
No it's not. There has never been more emphasis than now on seeking help, contacting support services, reaching out and talking to people. Not every thing, big or small, that goes wrong in the country is the government's fault. People have to take more responsibility for their own decisions, well being, paths in life etc.
There's a lot of truth in that.
Attempted suicide plus murder of the kids seems to be a relatively new phenomenon in Ireland
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/he-strangled-his-girls-then-killed-himself-in-a-fireball-26700307.html
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/sanjeev-chada-jailed-for-life-for-murdering-his-sons-1.1954831
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/clodagh-hawe-s-sister-we-don-t-know-what-the-truth-is-1.3806024
I don't think that much research is available on the subject.
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
Well said
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
I think it's unfair to take the lives off three children, do you think the facts will show they wanted to be murdered - again this is the fcuked up society we live in making excuses for wrongs, poor woman she wasn't right mentally, do you think anyone who goes out and commits murder or any kind is right mentally, should we show compassion and sympathy to them all, wasn't their fault demons and all that - off course the boards self-righteous wet blanket piles in behind this shite.
Quote from: seafoid on January 28, 2020, 08:42:41 AM
Attempted suicide plus murder of the kids seems to be a relatively new phenomenon in Ireland
There was a case in Ramelton in Donegal in the early 1990s. Father drove off the quay with his 2 year old child.
Quote from: AFM on January 28, 2020, 01:37:09 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
I think it's unfair to take the lives off three children, do you think the facts will show they wanted to be murdered - again this is the fcuked up society we live in making excuses for wrongs, poor woman she wasn't right mentally, do you think anyone who goes out and commits murder or any kind is right mentally, should we show compassion and sympathy to them all, wasn't their fault demons and all that - off course the boards self-righteous wet blanket piles in behind this shite.
14 posts in and you've already started throwing around the personal insults. ;D
Unfortunately for your apparently (small sample size of posts admittedly) simplistic, outmoded view of the world, it really does exist in shades of grey. There isn't always a "he/she is evil and that's the simple reason" explanation for every tragedy. Obviously none of know what drove this woman to do what she did, and it may never be known. What is clear, and very well and thoughtfully articulated by tbrick18, is that what goes on inside of the head of a mentally ill or disturbed person is not necessarily subject to normal standards of reasoning and judgment, especially in a case like this when you're talking about a mother and her children. Mental illness is only beginning to be understood by wider society as a legitimate health issue. You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 01:56:08 PM
You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.
Quote from: AFM on January 27, 2020, 03:36:10 PM
The irony is the whole media campaign about mental awareness, where in reality it only appears to be for people who are in the minority as they are the only one ever suffer. ::)
::)
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 01:56:08 PM
Unfortunately for your apparently (small sample size of posts admittedly) simplistic, outmoded view of the world, it really does exist in shades of grey. There isn't always a "he/she is evil and that's the simple reason" explanation for every tragedy. Obviously none of know what drove this woman to do what she did, and it may never be known. What is clear, and very well and thoughtfully articulated by tbrick18, is that what goes on inside of the head of a mentally ill or disturbed person is not necessarily subject to normal standards of reasoning and judgment, especially in a case like this when you're talking about a mother and her children. Mental illness is only beginning to be understood by wider society as a legitimate health issue. You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.
I think I got the self-righteous on the head - i'll add delusions of grander about one's ability to post shite on an internet forum, so should we deem parents, sorry mothers as you seem to be running with that one, who abuse their children as having mental health issues which we shouldn't comment on as we don't understand or is that just reserved for murdering the children?
Quote from: AFM on January 28, 2020, 02:17:21 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 01:56:08 PM
You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.
Quote from: AFM on January 27, 2020, 03:36:10 PM
The irony is the whole media campaign about mental awareness, where in reality it only appears to be for people who are in the minority as they are the only one ever suffer. ::)
::)
And?
Quote from: AFM on January 28, 2020, 01:37:09 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
I think it's unfair to take the lives off three children, do you think the facts will show they wanted to be murdered - again this is the fcuked up society we live in making excuses for wrongs, poor woman she wasn't right mentally, do you think anyone who goes out and commits murder or any kind is right mentally, should we show compassion and sympathy to them all, wasn't their fault demons and all that - off course the boards self-righteous wet blanket piles in behind this shite.
Read the sentence in my post immediately before the one you highlighted.
If we were to follow your rationale it follows that mental health is never an excuse for these tragic events.
With regards to your comment around anyone going out and committing murder, I absolutely think that in some cases these people committing these crimes are mentally ill.
And we should absolutely show compassion in those cases....in exactly the same way we should show compassion to someone who had a heart attack behind the wheel of a car which results in an accident wiping out a family in the process (for example). Why should one health condition be given precedence over another? Why should the mentally ill person be held any more at fault than the person who had a heart attack?
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 02:27:15 PM
If we were to follow your rationale it follows that mental health is never an excuse for these tragic events.
Mental health is never an excuse for killing anyone, least of all a child. If you compulsively ideate the sexual abuse of a child, it is your responsibility to ensure that you can't act on that compulsion. For that reason, we don't tolerate children being left alone with a likely or actual pederast. Why do we tolerate children being left alone with someone who is ideating to kill them?
Quote from: AFM on January 28, 2020, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 01:56:08 PM
Unfortunately for your apparently (small sample size of posts admittedly) simplistic, outmoded view of the world, it really does exist in shades of grey. There isn't always a "he/she is evil and that's the simple reason" explanation for every tragedy. Obviously none of know what drove this woman to do what she did, and it may never be known. What is clear, and very well and thoughtfully articulated by tbrick18, is that what goes on inside of the head of a mentally ill or disturbed person is not necessarily subject to normal standards of reasoning and judgment, especially in a case like this when you're talking about a mother and her children. Mental illness is only beginning to be understood by wider society as a legitimate health issue. You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.
I think I got the self-righteous on the head - i'll add delusions of grander about one's ability to post shite on an internet forum, so should we deem parents, sorry mothers as you seem to be running with that one, who abuse their children as having mental health issues which we shouldn't comment on as we don't understand or is that just reserved for murdering the children?
And of course we get the male victimhood shite again!
But yes, parents, of course.
I never said you couldn't comment on why this happened. I agreed with tbrick18 on his well-supported comment that until the facts come out, simply labeling her as evil or condemning her for not just killing herself is unfair and baseless.
You are free to call her whatever the f**k you want (and call other posters names if you think that will help), but all it is is baseless, emotional, reactionary nonsense in the absence of an investigation, inquest and possibly trial. Unless you have some inside information supporting your contention, in which case you should state so.
No one disputes that this was a terrible tragedy and an appalling, unjust end to three young lives and the ruination of their father and other relatives. Acknowledging the obvious potential role of serious mental illness and possibly diminished responsibility doesn't change that. In fact, it probably makes it even worse in some ways if that turns out to be the case.
Quote from: five points on January 28, 2020, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 02:27:15 PM
If we were to follow your rationale it follows that mental health is never an excuse for these tragic events.
Mental health is never an excuse for killing anyone, least of all a child. If you compulsively ideate the sexual abuse of a child, it is your responsibility to ensure that you can't act on that compulsion. For that reason, we don't tolerate children being left alone with a likely or actual pederast. Why do we tolerate children being left alone with someone who is ideating to kill them?
One would hope that the investigation will look very closely at that exact issue.
But its similar to the debate around access to guns and mental illness in the US.
Who makes the call or how do you make the call on when someone moves across that line?
Quote from: five points on January 28, 2020, 02:35:32 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 02:27:15 PM
If we were to follow your rationale it follows that mental health is never an excuse for these tragic events.
Mental health is never an excuse for killing anyone, least of all a child. If you compulsively ideate the sexual abuse of a child, it is your responsibility to ensure that you can't act on that compulsion. For that reason, we don't tolerate children being left alone with a likely or actual pederast. Why do we tolerate children being left alone with someone who is ideating to kill them?
Excuse was probably the wrong word to use, it would have been better to say "contributing factor".
I do think you are slightly comparing apples to oranges with the sex abuse analogy, but to follow through with it, we don't tolerate children being left alone with someone like that. But neither do we tolerate leaving them alone with someone who might cause them harm due to mental health. Social services have a remit to protect children where there are known about circumstances. The issue is that it can be too late before social services are involved or it can be that social services didn't do their job correctly (think Baby P).
In the case of mental health
it can be impossible to ensure you don't act on your compulsion.
I'm not completely disagreeing with you, I'm just trying to point out that all situations are not the same and with the best will in the world, some people still perform these horrible acts.
Of course all situations are not the same, but on the other hand, child safeguarding should extend much further than protection against sexual abuse.
It's a very difficult area.
Some interesting posts on here. I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness. Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 02:24:12 PM
Quote from: AFM on January 28, 2020, 02:17:21 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 01:56:08 PM
You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.
Quote from: AFM on January 27, 2020, 03:36:10 PM
The irony is the whole media campaign about mental awareness, where in reality it only appears to be for people who are in the minority as they are the only one ever suffer. ::)
::)
And?
You made your quote up.
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 02:54:31 PM
Quote from: AFM on January 28, 2020, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 01:56:08 PM
Unfortunately for your apparently (small sample size of posts admittedly) simplistic, outmoded view of the world, it really does exist in shades of grey. There isn't always a "he/she is evil and that's the simple reason" explanation for every tragedy. Obviously none of know what drove this woman to do what she did, and it may never be known. What is clear, and very well and thoughtfully articulated by tbrick18, is that what goes on inside of the head of a mentally ill or disturbed person is not necessarily subject to normal standards of reasoning and judgment, especially in a case like this when you're talking about a mother and her children. Mental illness is only beginning to be understood by wider society as a legitimate health issue. You were (ludicrously) whining yourself yesterday that the growing awareness of mental illness apparently doesn't extend itself to white, straight men.
I think I got the self-righteous on the head - i'll add delusions of grander about one's ability to post shite on an internet forum, so should we deem parents, sorry mothers as you seem to be running with that one, who abuse their children as having mental health issues which we shouldn't comment on as we don't understand or is that just reserved for murdering the children?
And of course we get the male victimhood shite again!
But yes, parents, of course.
I never said you couldn't comment on why this happened. I agreed with tbrick18 on his well-supported comment that until the facts come out, simply labeling her as evil or condemning her for not just killing herself is unfair and baseless.
You are free to call her whatever the f**k you want (and call other posters names if you think that will help), but all it is is baseless, emotional, reactionary nonsense in the absence of an investigation, inquest and possibly trial. Unless you have some inside information supporting your contention, in which case you should state so.
No one disputes that this was a terrible tragedy and an appalling, unjust end to three young lives and the ruination of their father and other relatives. Acknowledging the obvious potential role of serious mental illness and possibly diminished responsibility doesn't change that. In fact, it probably makes it even worse in some ways if that turns out to be the case.
You really are on tiptop form whats the male victimhood shite your refer too, what have I called this woman? and as for pointing out your characteristics is that name calling - or my viewpoint, in which case
Quote from: J70 on January 27, 2020, 04:11:46 PM
Are you not able to present a good defense of them?
1. There's a difference between defending the substance of your opinion on a topic and trying to distract with ad hominem attacks.
2. I didn't say you called her anything. However, you appear to be unsettled by the idea of some posters advocating caution before throwing labels around.
3. The male victimhood stuff refers to you seizing on my using the example of "mother" as opposed to "parent" and your complaints yesterday about people other than minorities (in the context of a conversation about women, gays and racial minorities, are we really not talking about straight, white males??) not being afforded the same consideration when it comes to mental illness or no one giving "a flying one if a white hetrosexual male in the workplace is offended"
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 28, 2020, 03:23:45 PM
Some interesting posts on here. I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness. Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?
Is there evidence or suggestion that, in general, paedophiles are severely depressed or psychotic and don't realize that what they are doing is harmful to kids?
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 04:10:08 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 28, 2020, 03:23:45 PM
Some interesting posts on here. I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness. Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?
Is there evidence or suggestion that, in general, paedophiles are severely depressed or psychotic and don't realize that what they are doing is harmful to kids?
Is Paedophilia not a mental illness though that impacts on ones behaviour/choices etc?
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 28, 2020, 04:14:29 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 28, 2020, 04:10:08 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 28, 2020, 03:23:45 PM
Some interesting posts on here. I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness. Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?
Is there evidence or suggestion that, in general, paedophiles are severely depressed or psychotic and don't realize that what they are doing is harmful to kids?
Is Paedophilia not a mental illness though that impacts on ones behaviour/choices etc?
So is OCD.
Doesn't mean you automatically abdicate all understanding of and responsibility for your actions.
But yes, there is obviously a slippery slope issue that has to be and obviously is borne in mind.
I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.
So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2020, 05:03:56 PM
I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.
So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!
Or maybe the better understood this sort of thing is, the better the chances of preventing it in future.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.
So Hitler wasn't evil? ??? Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2020, 05:03:56 PM
I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.
So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!
I don't understand. Are you saying we are safer just dismissing it as down to evil or malignant intent on the part of the mother or father and not acknowledging the mental illness side of things? That otherwise there is going to be a spate of child killings by parents or babysitters or whoever? Don't you think any surviving perpetrator is subject to intense investigation and evaluation? Is someone really going to murder their kids because they think they'll handily "get off" with a false diagnosis of mental illness? Are we not much better off attempting to find the real cause, regardless of the implications?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 05:23:12 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2020, 05:03:56 PM
I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.
So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!
Or maybe the better understood this sort of thing is, the better the chances of preventing it in future.
I'd argue that most Irish people would believe that we've never understood depression better than in 2019 but yet it's clinical incidence has probably never been higher.
Quote from: nrico2006 on January 28, 2020, 03:23:45 PM
Some interesting posts on here. I see someone comment that perhaps the mother is not evil and that the act wasn't an evil one, but one that was one of desperation as a result of mental illness. Would the same view be accepted against a pedophile who has abused children?
It's impossible to give a difinitive answer, but in principal that sort of vile act could be a symptom of mental health issues.
How often do we hear that abusers were often abused themselves as children? Who's to say that abuse didnt cause a mental Illness or skew that persons view of what is appropriate. I feel uncomfortable saying that, but it is what I think.
I don't know enough about it, but the only thing I'm sure of is that these things are not always clear cut.
All circumstances need to be considered before hanging someone for their crimes.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 27, 2020, 05:18:12 PM
Quote from: mouview on January 26, 2020, 11:51:53 PM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on January 26, 2020, 12:23:28 AM
Quote from: mouview on January 25, 2020, 07:37:57 PM
'Extended family' situation?
Doesn't look like it.
But f**k it, FFG slashed mental health budgets. This is collateral
No it's not. There has never been more emphasis than now on seeking help, contacting support services, reaching out and talking to people. Not every thing, big or small, that goes wrong in the country is the government's fault. People have to take more responsibility for their own decisions, well being, paths in life etc.
There's a lot of truth in that.
There were cases where there were specific failings of mental health services for rather vulnerable people. However in this case and the Hawe case the killer was working for the system and weren't at the cut off end of society. I find it totally inexplicable.
Quote from: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 05:29:18 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 05:23:12 PM
Quote from: WT4E on January 28, 2020, 05:03:56 PM
I'd be more worried with how people are portraying this on here and elsewhere that children will become an easy target for people with mental health issues. The more you feed society with the poor mother line the more prevalent it could become.
So I'd be careful about what your view is on this one!
Or maybe the better understood this sort of thing is, the better the chances of preventing it in future.
I'd argue that most Irish people would believe that we've never understood depression better than in 2019 but yet it's clinical incidence has probably never been higher.
Maybe the incidence is higher because people are becoming more aware of the signs and symptoms and thus more likely to seek help and a diagnosis.
Doesn't mean the job is done though.
Research published in 2013 found that in the previous 12 years 46 people lost their lives due to the phenomenon of murder-suicide. The research was carried out by Ciara Byrne, a forensics student at IT Sligo. Her study of records from the State Pathologist's office found there were 19 incidents in that time and that more than half of the 27 "innocent victims" were children.
https://www.itsligo.ie/2013/08/20/murder-suicide-research-conducted-by-forensics-student/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/hawe-case-irish-society-unlikely-to-learn-from-murder-suicide-1.2777711
Hawe case: Irish society unlikely to learn from murder-suicide
Latest deaths will not be recorded or studied by the State in any substantive way
Conor Lally
What lessons can be taken from the Hawe family case to reduce the chances of such awful acts happening again, or at the very least to reduce their frequency? File photograph: Getty Images
When the media focus on the Cavan murder-suicide diminishes, the shattered relatives and friends of the Hawe family will be left with their grief and pain, and a massive void in their lives.
But what will Irish society have learned?
What lessons can be taken from this case to reduce the chances of such awful acts happening again, or at the very least to reduce their frequency?
If past cases are anything to go by, we will not understand murder-suicide any better.
Prof Ella Arensman, director of research at the National Suicide Research Foundation, has spoken out in recent days about the media's coverage of the Hawe case as being too graphic.
Like other professionals who work in the suicide and self-harm prevention area, she argued that when details of how people kill themselves and others are published, it can lead to copycat events.
Her foundation issued a short briefing document to the media this week to urge caution and to provide details that might help put the murder-suicide phenomenon into context.
Psychiatric problems
The document notes that 80 per cent of those who carry out murder-suicides have a history of psychiatric disorders, in particular depression.
Some 70 per cent of female perpetrators and 30 per cent of males have had previous contact with a mental health professional. And 30 per cent of the males have suffered a decrease in status at work.
There were other facts and figures: there have been at least 24 murder-suicide cases in Ireland since 2004, for example.
However, almost all of the information was based on international research.
Little information exists about the Irish context, because only scant research has been done.
Prof Arensman said an independent research body directed by a group of stakeholders – the HSE and Garda among them – needs to be appointed to review all of the cases in Ireland over at least the last 10 years.
Future cases
And the data from that review should be added to by a much more thorough investigation of future cases similar to that which claimed the lives of the Hawe family this week.
As things stand, Alan Hawe's death will be recorded as a suicide. And the murders of his wife Clodagh Hawe and sons Liam (13), Niall (11) and Ryan (6) will be recorded in the regular crime statistics under the 'homicide' category.
The four murders will be counted in the same category as killings in the Kinahan-Hutch feud, for example, and with lives claimed in drunken brawls.
Nowhere will this case be officially recorded by a State justice or health agency as a murder-suicide.
And because the murderer in this case is dead and cannot be put on trial, the Garda inquiry under way since the alarm was raised last Monday morning is simply gathering information for a coroner's inquest. The inquest is a process that establishes cause of death only. It does not apportion blame.
And in many cases inquests only record a narrative verdict; nothing more than a description of the physical injuries death resulted from.
There is a very strong chance that all the public will ever know in solid fact about the Hawe murder-suicide case this week is the nature of the fatal injuries.
There may be some snippets of the family's last days, as there already have been, that emerge at the time of the inquest and which often only lead to more speculation.
When it comes to Ireland naming, recording and studying murder-suicides with a view to tackling the phenomenon, it would appear we have simply chosen not to do so.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/20/mother-killed-children-love-messages-car-park-suffolk-inquest
To be honest I don't know what I'm saying about this. Don't know how to feel. It's just gut wrenching I'll leave the answers to you lads.
Quote from: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.
So Hitler wasn't evil? ??? Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?
No, Tric. I don't think Hitler wasn't evil. Please go back and read my post again, then come back to me with questions if you're still missing the point or if you don't think I'm being clear enough.
We're now getting to the point in society where the "mental illness" card is be bandied about to excuse any sort of serious crime like this one, which is total nonsense to come out with and is actually an insult to the people who are really suffering from mental illness. Lets call it for what it is. Selfish and evil.
Seems like we all know the facts of this case before it has even properly come out. Think I'll reserve judgement for the time being
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 08:46:23 PM
Quote from: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.
So Hitler wasn't evil? ??? Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?
No, Tric. I don't think Hitler wasn't evil. Please go back and read my post again, then come back to me with questions if you're still missing the point or if you don't think I'm being clear enough.
No you're not being clear enough. What does Hitler have to do with what happened in Newcastle?
You appear to be drawing some sort of bizarre conflation between the reasoning of Hitler and the mother of those 3 kids.
QuotePeople do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler
If you don't cut off my sentence halfway through, you'll see the rest:
Quotethought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.
The point that i'm trying to make is that some people do terrible things, while in their minds they think they're doing the right thing. What's obvious to you and I as wrong (or "evil" if you want to use that term) is, to them, a logical means to an end.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 08:46:23 PM
Quote from: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.
So Hitler wasn't evil? ??? Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?
No, Tric. I don't think Hitler wasn't evil. Please go back and read my post again, then come back to me with questions if you're still missing the point or if you don't think I'm being clear enough.
Do you think someone who kills innocent children is evil or would you simply conclude that in their minds they were trying to do the right thing? It's amazing in today's society - especial the self-righteous on boards such as this, go out off their way to be more and more liberal, to the point they will condone everything, which is a very easy and admiral trait, except if any of these horrors were to God forbid in some guise land at their own doorstep, the high horse stance would soon dissipate!
From this link
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/nov/20/mother-killed-children-love-messages-car-park-suffolk-inquest
"It is clear that Fiona Anderson loved her children but that she was extremely emotionally disturbed on April 13, 14 and 15."
He said a torn-up letter recovered after her death provided a "harrowing insight" into her life. "She felt unable to cope with the situation and apologetically outlined her intention to take her children with her," Smith said. "In her words: a mother never abandons her children.""
Maybe the media shouldn't report on murder-suicide.
The idea is awful and people who are very unwell may be attracted to it as a part of suicidal ideation.
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 11:29:49 AM
Maybe the media shouldn't report on murder-suicide.
The idea is awful and people who are very unwell may be attracted to it as a part of suicidal ideation.
Agreed and I know (from direct personal experience of someone that is now dead) that it is indeed part of suicide ideation.
Is that realistic in this day and age?
How are you going to keep something like that out of the news and the public discourse? Someone, somewhere, will put it out.
Same thing with mass murder sprees in the US.
Quote from: J70 on January 29, 2020, 12:37:01 PM
Is that realistic in this day and age?
How are you going to keep something like that out of the news and the public discourse? Someone, somewhere, will put it out.
Same thing with mass murder sprees in the US.
Maybe allow reporting but only according to strict guidelines
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/hawe-case-irish-society-unlikely-to-learn-from-murder-suicide-1.2777711
"Prof Ella Arensman, director of research at the National Suicide Research Foundation, has spoken out in recent days about the media's coverage of the Hawe case as being too graphic.
Like other professionals who work in the suicide and self-harm prevention area, she argued that when details of how people kill themselves and others are published, it can lead to copycat events."
Nobody's kids deserve to die in copycat incidents
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 01:28:06 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 29, 2020, 12:37:01 PM
Is that realistic in this day and age?
How are you going to keep something like that out of the news and the public discourse? Someone, somewhere, will put it out.
Same thing with mass murder sprees in the US.
Maybe allow reporting but only according to strict guidelines
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/hawe-case-irish-society-unlikely-to-learn-from-murder-suicide-1.2777711
"Prof Ella Arensman, director of research at the National Suicide Research Foundation, has spoken out in recent days about the media's coverage of the Hawe case as being too graphic.
Like other professionals who work in the suicide and self-harm prevention area, she argued that when details of how people kill themselves and others are published, it can lead to copycat events."
Nobody's kids deserve to die in copycat incidents
I would absolutely favour restrictions on reporting to spare the relatives (what about reporting on inquests and trials though?), but anyone intent on committing such an act is not going to find themselves short of methods and ways to do it, not matter what restrictions on reporting exist.
Quote from: J70 on January 29, 2020, 02:02:01 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 01:28:06 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 29, 2020, 12:37:01 PM
Is that realistic in this day and age?
How are you going to keep something like that out of the news and the public discourse? Someone, somewhere, will put it out.
Same thing with mass murder sprees in the US.
Maybe allow reporting but only according to strict guidelines
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/hawe-case-irish-society-unlikely-to-learn-from-murder-suicide-1.2777711
"Prof Ella Arensman, director of research at the National Suicide Research Foundation, has spoken out in recent days about the media's coverage of the Hawe case as being too graphic.
Like other professionals who work in the suicide and self-harm prevention area, she argued that when details of how people kill themselves and others are published, it can lead to copycat events."
Nobody's kids deserve to die in copycat incidents
I would absolutely favour restrictions on reporting to spare the relatives (what about reporting on inquests and trials though?), but anyone intent on committing such an act is not going to find themselves short of methods and ways to do it, not matter what restrictions on reporting exist.
I agree but they may not be as inclined to kill the kids as well.
Quote from: AFM on January 29, 2020, 08:20:43 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 08:46:23 PM
Quote from: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.
So Hitler wasn't evil? ??? Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?
No, Tric. I don't think Hitler wasn't evil. Please go back and read my post again, then come back to me with questions if you're still missing the point or if you don't think I'm being clear enough.
Do you think someone who kills innocent children is evil or would you simply conclude that in their minds they were trying to do the right thing? It's amazing in today's society - especial the self-righteous on boards such as this, go out off their way to be more and more liberal, to the point they will condone everything, which is a very easy and admiral trait, except if any of these horrors were to God forbid in some guise land at their own doorstep, the high horse stance would soon dissipate!
Bye, Fox. Another sock puppet on ignore.
Quote from: seafoid on January 29, 2020, 01:28:06 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 29, 2020, 12:37:01 PM
Is that realistic in this day and age?
How are you going to keep something like that out of the news and the public discourse? Someone, somewhere, will put it out.
Same thing with mass murder sprees in the US.
Maybe allow reporting but only according to strict guidelines
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/hawe-case-irish-society-unlikely-to-learn-from-murder-suicide-1.2777711
"Prof Ella Arensman, director of research at the National Suicide Research Foundation, has spoken out in recent days about the media's coverage of the Hawe case as being too graphic.
Like other professionals who work in the suicide and self-harm prevention area, she argued that when details of how people kill themselves and others are published, it can lead to copycat events."
Nobody's kids deserve to die in copycat incidents
I've noticed in the US they've changed the way they report on mass shootings. They used to showcase the shooter's name, broadcast his videos and entire manifesto. Now they don't even mention the shooter's name, to say nothing of his video or motives.
It's so sad to read the story, those poor children. But we can't fully judge until we know the full picture. As posters have said maybe mental health issues were involved, maybe abuse who knows.
It's all well and good to put labels on things like 'Evil' but it teaches us nothing about this tragedy. Our goal should be to learn the full truth of what unfolded and how it came about and see can we as a society learn anything from this.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 29, 2020, 04:51:15 PM
Quote from: AFM on January 29, 2020, 08:20:43 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 08:46:23 PM
Quote from: trileacman on January 28, 2020, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 28, 2020, 05:19:14 PM
Quote from: tbrick18 on January 28, 2020, 12:33:51 PM
I don't think there's a one size fits all explanation for these things.
They are horrific, sad and heart wrenching acts no matter what the situation.
There are different scenarios, or reasons for want of a better word, that I can think of.
Evil - simply put an evil act of terror against children/wife/husband. No mental health issues, just a pre-meditated action of violence against a vulnerable person or child.
Mental Health - Suicidal tendancies brought on by depression/abuse/ptsd and those feelings of worthlessness and being a burden on family and society becoming so overwhelming that in their head, the only option is suicide. From what exposure I've had of this, the option of suicide is not a selfish one, but one which in the head of that person is actually for the benefit of the people who would be affected. So a mother might believe that it is for the benefit of her children that she is dead. A husband might think he is so much of a burden on his wife, that she'd be better off if he's dead. I know this sounds wrong, but in the head of the person who commits suicide this logic adds up. Only my experience....and I'm not saying it would be the same for everyone and i'm not trying to condone any of the actions.
Mental Health - Murder Suicide. I can only imagine that this is an extreme case of the suicidal situation. Where in the head of the person doing the killing, that the children (in this case) would be better off dead than living. Or it could be that the person wants to commit suicide, but cant bear to leave the children behind so decides to take them too. Of course, this is all irrational thought and behaviour and I honestly think in this situation the act is not an evil act but one of desperation and illogical thought brought on by illness.
I see comments along the lines of ...."why could they not just kill themselves", or "why did they not speak to someone"....for me, I think in the head of the person committing suicide or murder/suicide, it's not a decision but rather a compulsion they have no actual control over. Mentally their brain is not working correctly. I know many will disagree, but I've had a family member in the past who is lucky to have survived and this was how they explained it to me after the events.
I'm not trying to condone any of these actions, as those 3 kids were absolutely innocent of anything and victims no matter how you look at it. But perhaps the mother is not evil....perhaps she is extremely ill for what ever reason.
I just think it's unfair to speak about her in terms of being evil or could she just have killed herself, until the facts are known. I realise it was unfair to the children what happened to them and it's unimaginable how terrified they must have been, but its not helpful to anyone to pass comment on those involved at this time, especially not to the family left behind.
Indeed. The word "evil" is a satisfying one to say, especially in a case like this, but it's a bit of a cop-out in that it admits defeat in the mission to understand why these things happen. People do bad things because in their minds they're doing the right thing. Even Hitler thought he was doing Germany a favour even though he rounded up and murdered so many Germans. Trying to understand the twisted logic behind it is not the same as condoning it.
So Hitler wasn't evil? ??? Can you say you understand the "twisted logic" of Adolf Hitler?
No, Tric. I don't think Hitler wasn't evil. Please go back and read my post again, then come back to me with questions if you're still missing the point or if you don't think I'm being clear enough.
Do you think someone who kills innocent children is evil or would you simply conclude that in their minds they were trying to do the right thing? It's amazing in today's society - especial the self-righteous on boards such as this, go out off their way to be more and more liberal, to the point they will condone everything, which is a very easy and admiral trait, except if any of these horrors were to God forbid in some guise land at their own doorstep, the high horse stance would soon dissipate!
Bye, Fox. Another sock puppet on ignore.
Poor Eamonn can't debate just pontificate - sad man.
You genuinely cannot provide a full judgement on this or any such case without knowing the whole facts. We live in a world today where we are so fast to pass judgement and be seen to pass judgement. This woman could have had severe mental health issues, chronically depressed, maybe some history of being subjected to violence, maybe some history of subjecting others to violence, she may just be evil as someone stated above but to be honest with the images of those 3 darlings I don't believe that is the case.
To kill a child is horrendous but when someone's mind goes it is hard to seen reason at all. Wait till the evidence comes out then make judgements.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on January 30, 2020, 09:07:29 AM
You genuinely cannot provide a full judgement on this or any such case without knowing the whole facts. We live in a world today where we are so fast to pass judgement and be seen to pass judgement. This woman could have had severe mental health issues, chronically depressed, maybe some history of being subjected to violence, maybe some history of subjecting others to violence, she may just be evil as someone stated above but to be honest with the images of those 3 darlings I don't believe that is the case.
To kill a child is horrendous but when someone's mind goes it is hard to seen reason at all. Wait till the evidence comes out then make judgements.
Well said.
What is awful is the finality of it.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on January 30, 2020, 09:07:29 AM
You genuinely cannot provide a full judgement on this or any such case without knowing the whole facts. We live in a world today where we are so fast to pass judgement and be seen to pass judgement. This woman could have had severe mental health issues, chronically depressed, maybe some history of being subjected to violence, maybe some history of subjecting others to violence, she may just be evil as someone stated above but to be honest with the images of those 3 darlings I don't believe that is the case.
To kill a child is horrendous but when someone's mind goes it is hard to seen reason at all. Wait till the evidence comes out then make judgements.
Hard to argue this one, especially when on the face of it there is nothing untoward. It'll all come out soon enough but maybe this is one of the cases we shouldn't speculate as we have absolutely nothing to go on right now.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on January 30, 2020, 09:07:29 AM
You genuinely cannot provide a full judgement on this or any such case without knowing the whole facts. We live in a world today where we are so fast to pass judgement and be seen to pass judgement. This woman could have had severe mental health issues, chronically depressed, maybe some history of being subjected to violence, maybe some history of subjecting others to violence, she may just be evil as someone stated above but to be honest with the images of those 3 darlings I don't believe that is the case.
To kill a child is horrendous but when someone's mind goes it is hard to seen reason at all. Wait till the evidence comes out then make judgements.
100%
It's hard to imagine how someone could do something like this to their own children without there being some kind of underlying issues, but we simply don't know.
No-one knows what is going on behind anyone's door or inside anyone's head so its unfair and unjust to pass judgement without knowing the facts.
The sad fact is that 3 beautiful children have died under tragic and horrific circumstances, a father and husband has been left devastated and a mother and wife has been charged with murder and is undergoing psychiatric assessment.
Just heart-breaking; those poor innocent children suffering for the "sins" of others
Just read about the funeral service there a short time ago. Has to be one of the most heartbreaking things I have read in a long time.
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on January 31, 2020, 05:48:53 PM
Just read about the funeral service as short time ago. Has to be one of the most heartbreaking things I have read in a long time.
You had children there from the youth club and national schools etc. It must be hard for the rest of the parents to explain why a mother would kill her own children.
Awful. God help this poor man.
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on January 31, 2020, 05:48:53 PM
Just read about the funeral service there a short time ago. Has to be one of the most heartbreaking things I have read in a long time.
Same. The full text of the father's eulogy is on rte.ie, it's very sad
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on January 30, 2020, 09:07:29 AM
You genuinely cannot provide a full judgement on this or any such case without knowing the whole facts. We live in a world today where we are so fast to pass judgement and be seen to pass judgement. This woman could have had severe mental health issues, chronically depressed, maybe some history of being subjected to violence, maybe some history of subjecting others to violence, she may just be evil as someone stated above but to be honest with the images of those 3 darlings I don't believe that is the case.
To kill a child is horrendous but when someone's mind goes it is hard to seen reason at all. Wait till the evidence comes out then make judgements.
I think the judgements were a lot nicer than in the Hawe case.
Quote from: macdanger2 on January 31, 2020, 07:41:17 PM
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on January 31, 2020, 05:48:53 PM
Just read about the funeral service there a short time ago. Has to be one of the most heartbreaking things I have read in a long time.
Same. The full text of the father's eulogy is on rte.ie, it's very sad
Just read it, heart breaking stuff.