Princess Anne for Croke Park

[zoyler]

Pints - you know well the sorts of houses I'm referring to.  I'm mid county.

[Tankie]

Zoyler, you are spouting some of the worst rubbbish I have been unfortunate enough to read on this site for a long time. C

onsidering we are having a discussion about the issue of the British Government having to come clean before their royal family should be welcome in Croke Park, we are taliking about how they need to come clean about their part in collusion. The british government has been found to have been involved in many hundreds of murders of innocent nationalists in Ireland over the last thiry years. To start mouthing off about smuggling is a desparate attempt to change the subject and I suspect is just a way for you to get you republican-bashing out of your system.

Secondly, why is it you seem to tar all republicans with the same brush. i.e. "criminals the lot of them" and speaking of "so called" republican areas? If an area is populated mainly by people of a republican outlook, it therefor can be termed as a republican area, whether you like it or not.

You do realise that Croke Park is only a stadium and to suggest that the use of a stadium should hang on the British government saying sorry is just rediculous. The use of the stadium has nothing to do with what the British government has done. I think you forget that many GAA people are also soccer and Rugby fans who go and watch the national team play in this stadium and are very happy to do so but to think you can insult Princess Anne over something that has nothing to do with sport is just rediculous and very narrow minded.

[winsamsoon]

 most are the result of illegal activity which was not subject to what any fair minded person would regard as proper police/revenue scutiny.
[/quote]


Yes but there had to be fair policing first in order to report such incidents. How hypocritical would it be going to the police force that existed here up until about 2004 to report a criminal act when they themselves were spying on people and colluding in the mourder of innocent people. Zoyler you can't be selective in criminality whether it be stealing the odd gun or pistol or robbing the Northern Bank they were still crimes. I wasn't saying the Republican movement now are the same as the Old IRA.  The old IRA had principles and fought towards an ideology. There was a respect amoung the members and above all a respect for themselves and the society they lived in. This is clearly non existance in the current set up where  a lot of folk are in it for what they can get out of it.

[Mike Sheehy]

Mike, If you weren't taking your history lessons from the Michael Collins film you would know that the Civil War wasn't fought over the north but was in fact fought over the issue of the oath of allegience

And you lads accuse me of being simplistic. The oath of allegiance was certainly a major factor but was not the sole reason. The republic was declared in 1916 and the treaty did not deliver that republic, many fought on that issue alone , oath or no oath. It may come as a shock to you lads but some of us have family histories down here and we know why we fought on one side or another (or both). You lads know the Northern perspective, we know the southern perspective.

Furthermore, the attitude in your posting of an "Us and "Them" in reguards to the north and south demonstrates the partitionist attitude rampant in the 26 counties.

I hope you can see how ironic it is to be accused of an "Us" and "them" attitude by the world masters in "us" and "them-ery".

but, at least you and winsamsoon are making an honest attempt at explaining your position, unlike Red hander and Zapatista who simply accuse others of being simplistic but havent the guts to explain the "complexities" of the North to us naive southerners. Go on lads..I look forward to your learned responses....

[Mike Sheehy]

Yip some would call Mike sheehy a sad bastard.  Im not sure if thats a little extreme though.

yeah, thats a bit extreme..there would be nothing extreme, however, about calling you an arsehole.

[Zapatista]

Can you clarify Mike? I am more than happy to address anything you want to ask

[pintsofguinness]

Pints - you know well the sorts of houses I'm referring to.  I'm mid county.

Not really.  I know of a couple of people that would fall into the category you're talking about but to say that "many if not most" nice houses are a result of criminal activity is just insane.

[Zapatista]

Some Northerners seem to forget a bloody civil war was fought over the north. Perhaps those in the south of an older generation might take offence at some of the comments by Northerners like winsamsoon.

As for the generations since the civil war, what is it exactly that you would have us do ? What happened in the 1920's happened..its easy now to say that the south should have fought on but people get tired of war and its difficult to keep fighting when you are fighting for something that is, relatively, far away. Even if Ireland had united at that time there probably would have still been a troubles as the protestant "minority" fought on. No matter what way you look at you were going to be stuck in a bitter bloodletting.

The only people that can solve the troubles in the north are the people in the north and there really isn't much real "help" the south, or even the British, can give (if there was a time machine they themeselves would probably go back and shoot William of Orange and those before him that got them into the sorry mess). So no amount of whinging at us is going to help your situation. From my vantage point things have improved a lot in the North. Obviously you, on the ground, can see its not perfect but it would be better if you could clarify what "help" the south can give instead of whinging at us.

OH my good God.

I will start Mike. I assume you are talking about the above post? Here goes-

Some Northerners seem to forget a bloody civil war was fought over the north. Perhaps those in the south of an older generation might take offence at some of the comments by Northerners like winsamsoon.

Partition played a very little part in the Civil war, or have you forgot that? Some northerners might have forgot some might not even know but I assure you most have not forgot. Young and old northerners might take offence to your comment.

As for the generations since the civil war, what is it exactly that you would have us do ? What happened in the 1920's happened..its easy now to say that the south should have fought on but people get tired of war and its difficult to keep fighting when you are fighting for something that is, relatively, far away. Even if Ireland had united at that time there probably would have still been a troubles as the protestant "minority" fought on. No matter what way you look at you were going to be stuck in a bitter bloodletting.

I would have the generations since the Civil War show some support, actively campaign for a Republic, as a sovereign nation challenge the British Government on their position in the north, not criminalise and in prison Republicans etc.

I agree with "What happened in the 1920's happened..its easy now to say that the south should have fought on but people get tired of war and its difficult to keep fighting".

I am not sure what you mean by "something that is, relatively, far away". If you mean far in the future then I think you are wrong. Unity was already in tact before the treaty was accepted and would still be intact if the treaty had have been rejected. It would only take the rejection or overturning of the treaty to bring unity. If you mean far away is terms of mile then that is absolutely ridiculous. Do you think England and Wales are far away from each other?

Even if Ireland had united at that time there probably would have still been a troubles as the protestant "minority" fought on. No matter what way you look at you were going to be stuck in a bitter bloodletting.

Ireland was united. I'm not sure what you mean above? Are you suggesting partition made no difference? Is it a case of - if there had been no partition the South would not have been involved and let the six countys in the north east contain the "bitter bloodletting" leaving the other 26 countys (with no actual divide between the 6 and 26) in relative peace?

The only people that can solve the troubles in the north are the people in the north and there really isn't much real "help" the south, or even the British, can give (if there was a time machine they themeselves would probably go back and shoot William of Orange and those before him that got them into the sorry mess). So no amount of whinging at us is going to help your situation. From my vantage point things have improved a lot in the North. Obviously you, on the ground, can see its not perfect but it would be better if you could clarify what "help" the south can give instead of whinging at us

The only people who can solve the troubles are those who played a part. This is in the design  of the GFA and accepted by the people of Ireland. No one can wash their hands of their part including Dublin and London. You might see it a whinging but I see it as years of begging for help being ignored and now we are left with some resentment especially from those who continue to ignore their role.

I am available to answer any questions you want to ask Mike.

[winsamsoon]

I have alsways been taught like yourself mike that the civil war was fought over the aoth of allegiance aswell as the partitioning of the 6 counties. I am sure there are other factors aswell that were a little less significant. Mikey you are quite correct and i wouldn't be that arrogant to suggest that i knew more than yourself on the issue of the civil war as you say members of your family actually fought in it. There were members of the north involved aswell (including some family members)  and many battles were fought an houses divided over the issue. I still have a great aunt who worships De Valera (she has the Michael Collins traitor theme going on ) I acknowledge that with each region there were different aspects and for me to try and tell you how attitudes in Kerry where today or back then would be wrong. But i am sure from your posts you wouldn't mind a sensible debate about the issue. What some of the other posters don't realise is that everything ain't black and white. You could have one opinion and me another and it would be possible for us both to be correct. The we have the guys who resort to name calling and i really share no time for this because it tells me they have no knowledge and we know wit is the lowest form of knowledge.