We have had two years in a row where no backdoor team has made the AI semifinals. Is the backdoor a waste of time? Are we just prolonging the agony for teams who are just not good enough?
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 05, 2012, 06:02:39 PM
We have had two years in a row where no backdoor team has made the AI semifinals. Is the backdoor a waste of time? Are we just prolonging the agony for teams who are just not good enough?
I don't think so, there are 4 teams currently a good bit ahead of the next best team in their province, this could all change very quickly.
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 05, 2012, 06:02:39 PM
We have had two years in a row where no backdoor team has made the AI semifinals. Is the backdoor a waste of time? Are we just prolonging the agony for teams who are just not good enough?
Every year in Championship football, at least 25 teams are prolonging their agony by entering it at all.
Not a waste of time to the GAA who make some amount of money off the back of it every year since its introduction.
If I had my way we'd either go back to the way it was, no back door, straight knock out, or have a champions league style Championship with groups. Provincial championships before it all kicked off to decide the top 4 seeds with the rest an open draw.
ffs...... ::)
Quote from: Collins on August 05, 2012, 06:06:38 PM
If I had my way we'd either go back to the way it was, no back door, straight knock out,
+1
Open draw...straight knock out......every one at the same level of preparation...best team will win it...forget the provincial championships or run them for fun in the winter.
Are ye forgetting 2010 when all four semi-finalists came through the back door?
Back door allows teams to develop
Delighted to see for the 2nd year in a row, the 4 champs have got through to the semi finals. I didn't like it in 2010 when 4 backdoor teams made it through, and people were quick to paint the back door as the best route. Probably stems from the fact that i like tradition, plus armagh always took winning ulster seriously, winning 7 but only winning one sam in return.
For years there you could always pick the excuses for beaten teams. If cork had of lost today, then experts would says ' they were rusty, too long a break, and kildare were match sharp, blah blah.'
On the other hand, it would have been said that backdoor teams were tired, blah blah if beaten, but thankfully this year everyone just knows the 4 backdoor teams were shite this year (except kerry, as i believe kerry would have beaten mayo, dublin or cork today)
Quote from: Orchardman on August 05, 2012, 08:29:47 PM
Delighted to see for the 2nd year in a row, the 4 champs have got through to the semi finals. I didn't like it in 2010 when 4 backdoor teams made it through, and people were quick to paint the back door as the best route. Probably stems from the fact that i like tradition, plus armagh always took winning ulster seriously, winning 7 but only winning one sam in return.
For years there you could always pick the excuses for beaten teams. If cork had of lost today, then experts would says ' they were rusty, too long a break, and kildare were match sharp, blah blah.'
On the other hand, it would have been said that backdoor teams were tired, blah blah if beaten, but thankfully this year everyone just knows the 4 backdoor teams were shite this year (except kerry, as i believe kerry would have beaten mayo, dublin or cork today)
B*llocks! Kerry are not the force of yester-year!
All i'm saying is that it's foolish for someone to say that kerry lag years behind, as someone did say in earlier post. Kerry's display against tyrone, and with a fully fit team today would probably have beaten mayo, or maybe not. I certainly wouldnt have had mayo strong favourites. I also think revenge against dublin would have carried them over the line, and there is every chance they could still have had the indian sign over cork in croke park.
People forget very easily, kerry lost last years final with the last kick of the game! Once brosnan went off today i said it was game over, and then sheehan and o sullivan.
In saying that all their best players will be over 30 next year and i don't think they will be any better than this year, so they may struggle.
Scrap the provincials. 5 points for a goal.
Quote from: Orchardman on August 05, 2012, 10:16:52 PM
All i'm saying is that it's foolish for someone to say that kerry lag years behind, as someone did say in earlier post. Kerry's display against tyrone, and with a fully fit team today would probably have beaten mayo, or maybe not. I certainly wouldnt have had mayo strong favourites. I also think revenge against dublin would have carried them over the line, and there is every chance they could still have had the indian sign over cork in croke park.
People forget very easily, kerry lost last years final with the last kick of the game! Once brosnan went off today i said it was game over, and then sheehan and o sullivan.
In saying that all their best players will be over 30 next year and i don't think they will be any better than this year, so they may struggle.
Ah, we have had three years now without Kerry as champions. So their flame is not as bright. Two of them years they got a second chance, so it's not like they were caught on an off day and were out. As for last year, they blew a major lead, going into the home front. Some of the chasing pack have bridged some of the gap and age wise this team (Like Tyrone) cannot go on forever.
Quote from: Orchardman on August 05, 2012, 10:16:52 PM
All i'm saying is that it's foolish for someone to say that kerry lag years behind, as someone did say in earlier post. Kerry's display against tyrone, and with a (http://)
People forget very easily, kerry lost last years final with the last kick of the game! Once brosnan went off today i said it was game over, and then sheehan and o sullivan.
In saying that all their best players will be over 30 next year and i don't think they will be any better than this year, so they may struggle.
Sorry, No.
The thing is that was Donegal s most jittery performance I ve seen under McGuinness and still were in an armchair before that last few minutes drama when they dodged a bullet. Kerry are only a shadow of the team of Darragh, Moynihan, Griffin, O Cinnéide and McCarty - the men that used to let Gooch and Donaghy play without burden. Time moves on for every team. That Kerry team were lucky to get out with their reputation still intact today.
Quote from: moysider on August 05, 2012, 11:21:04 PM
Quote from: Orchardman on August 05, 2012, 10:16:52 PM
All i'm saying is that it's foolish for someone to say that kerry lag years behind, as someone did say in earlier post. Kerry's display against tyrone, and with a (http://)
People forget very easily, kerry lost last years final with the last kick of the game! Once brosnan went off today i said it was game over, and then sheehan and o sullivan.
In saying that all their best players will be over 30 next year and i don't think they will be any better than this year, so they may struggle.
Sorry, No.
The thing is that was Donegal s most jittery performance I ve seen under McGuinness and still were in an armchair before that last few minutes drama when they dodged a bullet. Kerry are only a shadow of the team of Darragh, Moynihan, Griffin, O Cinnéide and McCarty - the men that used to let Gooch and Donaghy play without burden. Time moves on for every team. That Kerry team were lucky to get out with their reputation still intact today.
This weekend told us a few truths.
Mayo - are not as soft a draw as some would believe.
Donegal - are up to the plate.
Cork - just because they are not playing games does not mean they have gone away.
Dublin - Not playing well, but still turning over teams
Kildare - for all the huffing and puffing, they are not a top table team.
Kerry - their flame is diminishing, no subs bench.
Laois - not as much a make weight as some pundits would make you believe.
Down - Not a shadow of the team of 2010.
17-a-side and the Bishop of Howth to throw it in.
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 05, 2012, 11:34:57 PM
Quote from: moysider on August 05, 2012, 11:21:04 PM
Quote from: Orchardman on August 05, 2012, 10:16:52 PM
All i'm saying is that it's foolish for someone to say that kerry lag years behind, as someone did say in earlier post. Kerry's display against tyrone, and with a (http://)
People forget very easily, kerry lost last years final with the last kick of the game! Once brosnan went off today i said it was game over, and then sheehan and o sullivan.
In saying that all their best players will be over 30 next year and i don't think they will be any better than this year, so they may struggle.
Sorry, No.
The thing is that was Donegal s most jittery performance I ve seen under McGuinness and still were in an armchair before that last few minutes drama when they dodged a bullet. Kerry are only a shadow of the team of Darragh, Moynihan, Griffin, O Cinnéide and McCarty - the men that used to let Gooch and Donaghy play without burden. Time moves on for every team. That Kerry team were lucky to get out with their reputation still intact today.
This weekend told us a few truths.
Mayo - are not as soft a draw as some would believe.
Donegal - are up to the plate.
Cork - just because they are not playing games does not mean they have gone away.
Dublin - Not playing well, but still turning over teams
Kildare - for all the huffing and puffing, they are not a top table team.
Kerry - their flame is diminishing, no subs bench.
Laois - not as much a make weight as some pundits would make you believe.
Down - Not a shadow of the team of 2010.
Are these the top 8 teams in the country?
Quote from: Jonah on August 05, 2012, 11:51:57 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 05, 2012, 11:34:57 PM
Quote from: moysider on August 05, 2012, 11:21:04 PM
Quote from: Orchardman on August 05, 2012, 10:16:52 PM
All i'm saying is that it's foolish for someone to say that kerry lag years behind, as someone did say in earlier post. Kerry's display against tyrone, and with a (http://)
People forget very easily, kerry lost last years final with the last kick of the game! Once brosnan went off today i said it was game over, and then sheehan and o sullivan.
In saying that all their best players will be over 30 next year and i don't think they will be any better than this year, so they may struggle.
Sorry, No.
The thing is that was Donegal s most jittery performance I ve seen under McGuinness and still were in an armchair before that last few minutes drama when they dodged a bullet. Kerry are only a shadow of the team of Darragh, Moynihan, Griffin, O Cinnéide and McCarty - the men that used to let Gooch and Donaghy play without burden. Time moves on for every team. That Kerry team were lucky to get out with their reputation still intact today.
This weekend told us a few truths.
Mayo - are not as soft a draw as some would believe.
Donegal - are up to the plate.
Cork - just because they are not playing games does not mean they have gone away.
Dublin - Not playing well, but still turning over teams
Kildare - for all the huffing and puffing, they are not a top table team.
Kerry - their flame is diminishing, no subs bench.
Laois - not as much a make weight as some pundits would make you believe.
Down - Not a shadow of the team of 2010.
Are these the top 8 teams in the country?
No, but the semi finalist are probably the top 5!
While you're at it, introduce handicaps in hurling.
Each Cork/KK/Tipp player to carry a rucksack with 100 kilos of sand.
A fair handicap would be a bag with replica medals in the number won by the county.
From a purely selfish point of view, I think we'd prefer the straight knockout here in Meath. That "option" of losing takes a certain degree of desperation out of our play, desperation we had used to great effect in winning games we had no right to win over the years. Losing should be like falling off a cliff, no soft landing. Even in the Qualifiers you couldn't replicate that feeling, having lost already in Championship football. On the other hand, you could say that where the fault is that of a county and not the system, they should shut up and get on with fixing it. I would agree with that sentiment, but how do you tell a group defeat is unacceptable, when you might have to prepare for another game six days later? I know Seán Boylan had similar sentiments regarding the back door system.
On the other hand, I feel it works quite well nationally. It has its faults, and it does cripple the provincial championships considerably, but every county gets at least two days out in the year. Prolonging the agony for some maybe, but on occasion a lesser team can come from nowhere and put a strong together. No big deal for anybody who expects that if we don't win this year we'll surely win next year, but a real help to counties with no successful tradition. Is the back door redundant? No, not until something better is proposed.
It just so happens that the best four teams in the country are from four different provinces. Kerry are up there too, and are capable of beating any of them, but after that there's a bit of a gap.
The current system is almost perfect, in my opinion. Every team gets one chance to win their province, and then one chance to win the All Ireland.
Absolutely nothing to benefit to going to straight knockout, and a champions league style format would lead to dead rubbers, which would mean very poor attendances. The only change I would make would be to even up the provincial championships numberwise.
Quote from: moysider on August 05, 2012, 11:21:04 PM
Quote from: Orchardman on August 05, 2012, 10:16:52 PM
All i'm saying is that it's foolish for someone to say that kerry lag years behind, as someone did say in earlier post. Kerry's display against tyrone, and with a (http://)
People forget very easily, kerry lost last years final with the last kick of the game! Once brosnan went off today i said it was game over, and then sheehan and o sullivan.
In saying that all their best players will be over 30 next year and i don't think they will be any better than this year, so they may struggle.
Sorry, No.
The thing is that was Donegal s most jittery performance I ve seen under McGuinness and still were in an armchair before that last few minutes drama when they dodged a bullet. Kerry are only a shadow of the team of Darragh, Moynihan, Griffin, O Cinnéide and McCarty - the men that used to let Gooch and Donaghy play without burden. Time moves on for every team. That Kerry team were lucky to get out with their reputation still intact today.
and yet but for a freak goal and injuries to the spine of their team they'd have won......
Quote from: Hound on August 06, 2012, 07:20:39 AM
It just so happens that the best four teams in the country are from four different provinces. Kerry are up there too, and are capable of beating any of them, but after that there's a bit of a gap.
The current system is almost perfect, in my opinion. Every team gets one chance to win their province, and then one chance to win the All Ireland.
Absolutely nothing to benefit to going to straight knockout, and a champions league style format would lead to dead rubbers, which would mean very poor attendances. The only change I would make would be to even up the provincial championships numberwise.
Have to say there is nothing wrong with the current system bar a evening up of provincial teams, jez even that is set up almost perfectly with a 4 x 8 format. The problem is could you tell Longford they are in connacht, how would they feel and who would you put into Munster? Laois and Offaly?
QuoteScrap the provincials. 5 points for a goal.
Quote17-a-side and the Bishop of Howth to throw it in.
Blackthorn Boots
The back door system has been a resounding success for both the GAA and the teams.
Without it, you wouldn't have teams like Fermanagh competing in an All-Ireland Semi-Final, despite never winning an Ulster title.
Written before the weekend games.
Provincial football champions deserve to have a safety net
By Martin Breheny
Wednesday August 01 2012
THIS is likely to become an issue after next weekend so let's deal with it now. Is it fair that if any of the provincial football champions loses an All-Ireland quarter-final, their championship bid ends?
Meanwhile, their conquerors, who lost a game earlier on, jaunt merrily into the semi-finals. None of the provincial champions would dare discuss the anomaly before the quarter-finals, lest they be accused of getting their excuses in first, just as the crazy six-day turnaround for beaten provincial finalists rarely gets an airing until it directly affects two counties every July.
The official line defends the system by claiming there are two approach routes to the quarter-finals and that each is as meritorious as the other. That argument contends that the quarter-finals represent the real start of the All-Ireland championship on a 4-4 provincial champions/qualifier winner basis, with everything which has gone before largely irrelevant.
Except, of course, it can't be, because however it's presented the reality is that teams beaten in the provinces are allowed to return to the All-Ireland, whereas provincial winners are provided with no safety net.
In effect, there's more joy in All-Ireland heaven for repentant provincial losers than for clean-living winners.
The figures show the success ratio in quarter-finals between provincial champions and qualifiers is pretty much even. Of the 44 quarter-finals played since 2001, it's 23-21 to provincial winners.
Last year was the first season when all four provincial winners (Dublin, Kerry, Donegal Mayo) survived the quarter-final fence but a year earlier, the reverse was the case when qualifiers Down, Dublin, Cork and Kildare all won.
Quickly
Benny Coulter got it spot on following Down's qualifier win over Tipperary on Saturday when he spoke of how his side had re-energised themselves so quickly after the Ulster final.
They felt that an 11-point defeat by Donegal was an unfair reflection on their performance, and Coulter spoke of how they refocused with an overnight stay in a hotel that night. Six days later, they beat Tipp.
"We're back in the same position as Donegal now," he said.
Actually, they are better-placed than Donegal. The quarter-final draw paired Down with Mayo, the least-fancied of the provincial champions, while Donegal drew Kerry, the qualifier survivors everybody wanted to avoid.
Donegal must be wondering why the gods have been so unkind. They were drawn in the preliminary round in Ulster both this year and last year and when they won all eight games, becoming the first county to win the two-in-a-row by the longest possible route, they got Kerry in the quarter-finals.
They are the only provincial winners who are bookies' outsiders for the quarter-finals. Not exactly the break they deserved, now is it?
Dublin and Tyrone attempted to have the championship format tweaked at the 2010 Congress but didn't get much support. They proposed that only two qualifiers be given an opportunity of reaching the semi-finals.
The four provincial champions would play off, with the winners qualifying for the semi-finals, while the losers played two qualifiers.
If that applied this year, next weekend's pairings would be Dublin v Mayo, Donegal v Cork, plus two games from a draw involving Kerry, Kildare, Down, Laois. The losers from the provincial champions' games would then play the two qualifier winners.
That system guarantees two provincial champions in the semi-finals every year, while the other two get a second chance. However, it was rejected amid predictable claims that it would further clog the calendar, leaving less time for club action.
The fact that many counties have hardly any senior club championship action for long spells in summer was ignored once the classic 'we need to think of the grassroots' line was introduced.
Remarkably, that wasn't an issue when Congress decided to restore replays for early-round provincial games and All-Ireland quarter-finals.
Donegal v Kildare went to extra-time in last year's quarter-final but replays will apply in the event of draws next weekend. If that happens, we can take it there will be no club action in the counties involved.
When the new system was first mooted, the primacy of the provincial championships in the All-Ireland race was supposed to be protected, to some degree at least, by giving the champions home advantage in the quarter-finals.
It never happened and, 11 years on, there's still no direct benefit from winning the provincial title -- the Donegal and Down examples are proof positive of that.
This oul sh1te regurgitated by the worst GAA journalist in the Country.
The present system is almost perfect and the amount of money it brings in means that it will take some system to replace it ;)
What I don't get is this illogical rubbish about "evening up the Provinces".
The Provinces are as they are and the only way you can have 4 eights is to replace the Provinces with Regions or Divisions or Conferences e.g Western, Northern etc.
Question is will this also apply to Hurling and underage as well?
No matter what semantics you come up with to keep the Provinces - Longford is in Leinster full stop.
It's bad enough having Galway and Antrim playing in the Leinster Hurling Championship but there's a logic behind it as there are no other hurling Counties in their existing Provinces.
But rubbish about "putting" Donegal or Longford in Connacht is off the wall.
Will all their teams be "put" in Connacht or just their Senior County teams. Will Longford and Donegal have delegates to the Connacht Council or the Leinster Council. What if we end up with the ultimate nonsense -- a "Connacht Final" between Donegal and Longford.
Only way you can have 8 teams in Connacht is for Galway and Mayo to be split and for Cork and Kerry to be split in Munster.
Then you'll need amalgamations in Leinster and Ulster.
Otherwise they are not Connacht , Leinster etc.
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 07, 2012, 03:30:30 PM
Written before the weekend games.
Provincial football champions deserve to have a safety net
By Martin Breheny
Wednesday August 01 2012
Oh by the way the article is rubbish, especially with hindsight!
I stopped after "By".
Quote from: Hardy on August 07, 2012, 04:12:12 PM
I stopped after "By".
You didn't miss much Hardy, next words were "Martin" and "Breheny" :P
I didn't say how far after "by". :P
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on August 07, 2012, 04:53:21 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 07, 2012, 04:12:12 PM
I stopped after "By".
You didn't miss much Hardy, next words were "Martin" and "Breheny" :P
He just spins the same rubbish about Mayo, I'm sure he does the same with other counties.
Dublin are the best in Leinster the 2nd best were hammered by Cork,Mayo the best in Connacht the 2nd best hammered by Kildare, Donegal then best in Ulster the 2nd best hammered by Kerry and Cork the best in Munster the 2nd best suffocated by Donegal
Final four the best in Ireland?
Quote from: Captain Obvious on August 07, 2012, 07:43:10 PM
Dublin are the best in Leinster the 2nd best were hammered by Cork,Mayo the best in Connacht the 2nd best hammered by Kildare, Donegal then best in Ulster the 2nd best hammered by Kerry and Cork the best in Munster the 2nd best suffocated by Donegal
Final four the best in Ireland?
Four of the five best, i'd say! Ironically the fifth team Kerry has been beaten by the other 4 in the last 12 months. Dublin in the AI Final, Mayo in the League Semi final, Cork in Munster Championship and Donegal last week. Gas!
With the 4 provincial winners making the Last 4 in the previous two Championship seasons. This has meant that the Back door has had no impact on both of these Championships. The jettison of players from panels after losing their provincial championships this year has shown that a good run in the back door seems to have little appeal. I know for the first time my interest in the back door has waned.
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 18, 2013, 09:41:20 PM
With the 4 provincial winners making the Last 4 in the previous two Championship seasons. This has meant that the Back door has had no impact on both of these Championships. The jettison of players from panels after losing their provincial championships this year has shown that a good run in the back door seems to have little appeal. I know for the first time my interest in the back door has waned.
2 years doesn't have enough data.
Tyrone will probably be there or thereabouts at the business end unless they meet Roscommon
Quote from: seafoid on June 18, 2013, 09:49:37 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 18, 2013, 09:41:20 PM
With the 4 provincial winners making the Last 4 in the previous two Championship seasons. This has meant that the Back door has had no impact on both of these Championships. The jettison of players from panels after losing their provincial championships this year has shown that a good run in the back door seems to have little appeal. I know for the first time my interest in the back door has waned.
2 years doesn't have enough data.
Tyrone will probably be there or thereabouts at the business end unless they meet Roscommon
Will they be there ahead of Donegal, Dublin, Kerry/Cork or Mayo (providing their all are provincial champions)? Not so sure. Tyrone have not had a big scalp in the Championship in a few years now. Them being put in the reckoning for an AI is based on giving Dublin a good game in the league final.
The GAA is always in crisis this time of year.
Quote from: Jinxy on June 18, 2013, 10:31:31 PM
The GAA is always in crisis this time of year.
Get rid of the back door, stupid concept and is ruining grass roots Gaelic games, the clubs for most of the year are without the best players who they trained from the age of 8 and never get them when it matters or they are injured when it comes to the club championship.
The best teams usually win the All Irelands (hurling and football) and the shocks of teams getting put out early are what makes it great, now the best teams have a second chance to rectify that fcuk up.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 18, 2013, 11:39:38 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 18, 2013, 10:31:31 PM
The GAA is always in crisis this time of year.
Get rid of the back door, stupid concept and is ruining grass roots Gaelic games, the clubs for most of the year are without the best players who they trained from the age of 8 and never get them when it matters or they are injured when it comes to the club championship.
The best teams usually win the All Irelands (hurling and football) and the shocks of teams getting put out early are what makes it great, now the best teams have a second chance to rectify that fcuk up.
Only thing is nobody has rectified that f-up in the last two years!
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 18, 2013, 11:49:59 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 18, 2013, 11:39:38 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 18, 2013, 10:31:31 PM
The GAA is always in crisis this time of year.
Get rid of the back door, stupid concept and is ruining grass roots Gaelic games, the clubs for most of the year are without the best players who they trained from the age of 8 and never get them when it matters or they are injured when it comes to the club championship.
The best teams usually win the All Irelands (hurling and football) and the shocks of teams getting put out early are what makes it great, now the best teams have a second chance to rectify that fcuk up.
Only thing is nobody has rectified that f-up in the last two years!
Kilkenny were beat by Galway last year and still won the All Ireland ;)
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 18, 2013, 11:52:34 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 18, 2013, 11:49:59 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 18, 2013, 11:39:38 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 18, 2013, 10:31:31 PM
The GAA is always in crisis this time of year.
Get rid of the back door, stupid concept and is ruining grass roots Gaelic games, the clubs for most of the year are without the best players who they trained from the age of 8 and never get them when it matters or they are injured when it comes to the club championship.
The best teams usually win the All Irelands (hurling and football) and the shocks of teams getting put out early are what makes it great, now the best teams have a second chance to rectify that fcuk up.
Only thing is nobody has rectified that f-up in the last two years!
Kilkenny were beat by Galway last year and still won the All Ireland ;)
Talking big ball here!
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 18, 2013, 11:56:26 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 18, 2013, 11:52:34 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 18, 2013, 11:49:59 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 18, 2013, 11:39:38 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on June 18, 2013, 10:31:31 PM
The GAA is always in crisis this time of year.
Get rid of the back door, stupid concept and is ruining grass roots Gaelic games, the clubs for most of the year are without the best players who they trained from the age of 8 and never get them when it matters or they are injured when it comes to the club championship.
The best teams usually win the All Irelands (hurling and football) and the shocks of teams getting put out early are what makes it great, now the best teams have a second chance to rectify that fcuk up.
Only thing is nobody has rectified that f-up in the last two years!
Kilkenny were beat by Galway last year and still won the All Ireland ;)
Talking big ball here!
check my post ;) bloody bog ballers think Gaelic games is all about you :P
Going back to straight knock out would be daft but the current system is barely any better. The provincial championships are the problem as they ensure you can't run a structured program for IC and club players. There are easy and logical solutions but it seems too few are willing to pursue them.
You have to deal with the financial question above all else if you want a fairer and more competitive championship. No format change is going to stop hammerings being dealt out in the early season and it amazes me that so many mistake format change for a solution to uncompeditive games or route for counties to uplift themselves to a higher level.
After that given how essential provincial ties are to the health of the GAA's accounts editing them by chopping and changing teams between the traditional provinces is the only realistic format change that can be pursued.
Quote from: Jinxy on June 18, 2013, 10:31:31 PM
The GAA is always in crisis this time of year.
Croke Park psy ops.
Quotegiven how essential provincial ties are to the health of the GAA's accounts editing them by chopping and changing teams between the traditional provinces is the only realistic format change that can be pursued.
They no longer guarantee big crowds and since we have never tried a format other than the provinces then we don't know other formats can't deliver at least as much revenue.
QuoteThe current system is perfect in my opinion
Lets see...
QuoteThe serious stuff doesn't start until Aug, can never understand why they is such crying every year, only 4/5 teams win championships so what is the point is dragging these things out any longer with farcical suggestions like group stages.
Well a season that has teams training and playing games since January but doesn't get going until August is far from perfect, the current system is the very definition of dragging the arse out of it.
QuoteAs for the club situation, that is up to each counties own county board, which are owned by the clubs, to run off their own competitions.
That's simply ignoring reality. In dual counties in particular you can't develop a structured season for club players under the current system while counties that do get their seasons finish often do so by piling on games in a short period of time. Simply finishing your club season shouldn't be the acceptable bench mark, it should be giving club players a clear structured season and to do that we need to do it at IC level first.
QuoteThere is more to the GAA than the inter county scene.
Agreed and the current system is killing it in many counties.
Being from Tyrone of course I'm gonna be in favour of the back door as we've won 2 AIs this way.
However, I think it has also benefited lots of counties at that 2nd level, where they probably will never win Sam but they could get a good run maybe into the quarterfinals and maybe even semi finals.
Donegal & Fermanagh are good examples in Ulster, where in the old system they would only have one or two games each year had they lost to Armagh or Tyrone etc but with the new system their fans get lots of trips away to counties all around the country that they'd usually never meet.
They then built up momentum and confidence and look how Fermanagh beat Armagh then in the quarterfinal in 2006.
It's not all about winning the AI for many teams but giving them a second chance to put a run of games together and in the process creating more income and interest in games for fans.
Yes club games do suffer but many county boards now have plans in place to push ahead with games anyway. If you're more of a club man, especially in a county where ye know you're not gonna win much then naturally enough you'll not be in favour of the qualifiers.
Mayo have recently become regular winners in Connaught but for teams like Sliigo, Roscommon & even Galway the back door gives them hope of putting a wee run of matches together.
If a 'Champions League Style Format' is introduced does every team get to win the All Ireland every year.
Or will it still have that same shite oulschool nonsense of only one winner. Sure that's no good, if Meath and Roscommon and every other county can't win an all ireland every year we need change. And soon
Quote from: Keyser soze on June 19, 2013, 11:21:19 AM
If a 'Champions League Style Format' is introduced does every team get to win the All Ireland every year.
Or will it still have that same shite oulschool nonsense of only one winner. Sure that's no good, if Meath and Roscommon and every other county can't win an all ireland every year we need change. And soon
+1
I'm starting to like Meath now, but only because Mayo hate them and you bàstards keep lumping us together.
Quote from: Syferus on June 19, 2013, 04:09:59 PM
I'm starting to like Meath now, but only because Mayo hate them and you bàstards keep lumping us together.
In contrast, I like Roscommon. Generous People! ;)
'It only gets going in August'.
When does the Champions League 'get going'?
When does the Heineken Cup 'get going'?
There's a business end with every sporting competition when the weaker teams have been eliminated and the big boys come up against each other.
I honestly don't get the hysteria about this.
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 19, 2013, 04:36:30 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 19, 2013, 04:09:59 PM
I'm starting to like Meath now, but only because Mayo hate them and you bàstards keep lumping us together.
In contrast, I like Roscommon. Generous People! ;)
I thought most Mayo people stopped hating Meath around 2005/2006 ish. Ten years was long enough to get over it, possibly I think Meath is fairly popular amongst Mayo people again.
Jesus boys that's entirely different. The champions league isn't the only, or even, the main competition for all those teams so if you get or give a few hammerings in the group stages you've the league to excite players and supporters. A man u fan can watch his team play 40 - 60 times and they'll have at least 2 competitions important to them, the league and the CL. We have maybe 15 games for most IC players and the majority of those are played by April in competitions that nobody cares about (to varying degrees granted) including the players and managers. I can't believe anyone could think what we have is acceptable. If I knew nothing about the GAA I would almost think it was devised by someone with a vested interest in the destruction of the GAA.
Quote from: Syferus on June 19, 2013, 04:09:59 PM
I'm starting to like Meath now, but only because Mayo hate them and you bàstards keep lumping us together.
Keyser isn't a Mayoman.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on June 19, 2013, 11:26:10 PM
Quote from: Syferus on June 19, 2013, 04:09:59 PM
I'm starting to like Meath now, but only because Mayo hate them and you bàstards keep lumping us together.
Keyser isn't a Mayoman.
Never said the 'bástards' were Mayomen ;)
Straight knockout all in draw. Move on
Definitely agree with some kind of a knockout structure in place instead of backdoor. I think this would ensure bigger crowds at games and a better atmosphere however the top knobs at the GAA will never let this happen as lost revenue at gates.
Quote from: The Brick on June 20, 2013, 09:55:01 AM
Definitely agree with some kind of a knockout structure in place instead of backdoor. I think this would ensure bigger crowds at games and a better atmosphere however the top knobs at the GAA will never let this happen as lost revenue at gates.
Teams can have an off day early on. It's fair enough to give them a second chance.
Especially with all the work they put in.
Look at the cats last year for example.
QuoteYeah, doing away with the only real cash cow outside Dublin at Croke Park that the sport has is no real loss.
Quote
I think this would ensure bigger crowds at games and a better atmosphere however the top knobs at the GAA will never let this happen as lost revenue at gates.
I think these contributions, which appear in various forms again and again, typify this debate.
The GAA leadership (elected by all members of course) are characterised as "knobs" for wishing to attract people to games, although the revenue from these games is valuable and not easily replaced.
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2013, 10:11:19 AM
Quote from: The Brick on June 20, 2013, 09:55:01 AM
Definitely agree with some kind of a knockout structure in place instead of backdoor. I think this would ensure bigger crowds at games and a better atmosphere however the top knobs at the GAA will never let this happen as lost revenue at gates.
Teams can have an off day early on. It's fair enough to give them a second chance.
Especially with all the work they put in.
Look at the cats last year for example.
It's that fair it cost Galway the All Ireland last year!!! Fcuk them, if they get knocked out 'early' on then that's that, should have prepared better and if they knew there was no back door they probably will. An open championship with the name pulled out first getting home venue will generate as much money as the qualifier system if marketed right. Fed up with the back door system.
Would love to see Kilkenny drawn away in the first round to Galway!! Or Dublin v Donegal in Ballybofey, yes there might be Antrim V Kerry down there, but the teams will know what to expect when the draw is made and train/prepare accordingly.
If they tried it for a period of 4/5 years and it doesn't catch on as well the what will they really lose? The back door system in my view has become stale. No second chance, now that's exciting
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 11:26:01 AM
If they tried it for a period of 4/5 years and it doesn't catch on as well the what will they really lose? The back door system in my view has become stale. No second chance, now that's exciting
I remember those 'no second chance' days. They were awful.
I may have overlooked something but I don't think any poster on this discussion so far has mentioned the reasons for opening the 'back door' in the first place.
According to the public relations officer at the time, the realisation that soccer and rugby were gaining in popularity and the GAA support base was shrinking led to it being introduced. The GAA was losing the battle for the minds and hearts of the people. It lacked an 'international dimension' and, mainly because of this, it wasn't getting the TV and press publicity of its rivals.
Extra games would mean extra interest in the counties concerned and extra revenue at the gate.
There were other reasons put forward at the time but this was the main one.
Incidentally, those advocating an open draw AI series should remember that the GAA did run one such competition on a trial basis back in 1984.
This was staged to mark the centenary of the association's foundation and I think Meath were the winners. (This was quite separate from the AI series of games.)
It was held the following year as well but it was then abandoned due to lack of public support.
QuoteWould love to see Kilkenny drawn away in the first round to Galway!! Or Dublin v Donegal in Ballybofey, yes there might be Antrim V Kerry down there, but the teams will know what to expect when the draw is made and train/prepare accordingly.
Antrim is now effectively in an open draw championship, leading to the Sam Maguire, first game is against Louth. Will they prepare accordingly and will the public get behind them? We all know the answer.
Quote
I may have overlooked something but I don't think any poster on this discussion so far has mentioned the reasons for opening the 'back door' in the first place.
Exactly. The backdoor gives more games for TV and the possibility of a run by a Sligo or Fermanagh to awaken interest in those counties.
Quote from: deiseach on June 20, 2013, 11:33:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 11:26:01 AM
If they tried it for a period of 4/5 years and it doesn't catch on as well the what will they really lose? The back door system in my view has become stale. No second chance, now that's exciting
I remember those 'no second chance' days. They were awful.
Seriously? So the All Ireland series and the winners prior the qualifiers was awful? I suppose you think the All Ireland club series is shite also?
So just to generate one extra game (though the provincial champions didn't get a second chance :D) you think that a team that gets hammered in one round should have the option to get hammered again in the next?
If counties (especially my own) get their house in order and raise the standard then I believe the open draw is worth a shot
Quote from: armaghniac on June 20, 2013, 12:41:35 PM
QuoteWould love to see Kilkenny drawn away in the first round to Galway!! Or Dublin v Donegal in Ballybofey, yes there might be Antrim V Kerry down there, but the teams will know what to expect when the draw is made and train/prepare accordingly.
Antrim is now effectively in an open draw championship, leading to the Sam Maguire, first game is against Louth. Will they prepare accordingly and will the public get behind them? We all know the answer.
Quote
I may have overlooked something but I don’t think any poster on this discussion so far has mentioned the reasons for opening the ‘back door’ in the first place.
Exactly. The backdoor gives more games for TV and the possibility of a run by a Sligo or Fermanagh to awaken interest in those counties.
Armagh in the same boat as Antrim to ;) As I said we need to sort ourselves out first
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 12:49:52 PM
Quote from: deiseach on June 20, 2013, 11:33:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 11:26:01 AM
If they tried it for a period of 4/5 years and it doesn't catch on as well the what will they really lose? The back door system in my view has become stale. No second chance, now that's exciting
I remember those 'no second chance' days. They were awful.
Seriously? So the All Ireland series and the winners prior the qualifiers was awful? I suppose you think the All Ireland club series is shite also?
So just to generate one extra game (though the provincial champions didn't get a second chance :D) you think that a team that gets hammered in one round should have the option to get hammered again in the next?
If counties (especially my own) get their house in order and raise the standard then I believe the open draw is worth a shot
For a Waterford man it was awful. Sometimes we'd get walloped, sometimes we'd go close. But invariably we'd lose and that would be that for the summer.
Not every team that gets hammered in the first round of the provincial championships gets hammered in the first round of the qualifiers. In fact half of the teams beaten in the first round of the provincial championships win in the first round of the qualifiers. Fancy that, eh?
QuoteArmagh in the same boat as Antrim
True, more or less. But there is some dissatisfaction in Armagh about this and Armagh have had periods when they've been a major influence in the championship. Antrim is a substantial county who haven't had a material influence on the championship for 60 years.
In the glory days before the BD Galway and Mayo could both have had top level teams as in 1998 -2000 but there was only one that could get out of Connacht. Obviously that is not an issue at the moment but it will recur again.
Tyrone also benefited from the BD. Fermanagh got to the AISF. There have been some great upsets.
[quote]Fermanagh got to the AISF. There have been some great upsets.[/quote]
That made me upset anyway.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 20, 2013, 01:18:36 PM
[quote]Fermanagh got to the AISF. There have been some great upsets.
That made me upset anyway.
[/quote]
Are the rivalries more intense in Ulster than in the rest of the country?
Were you sickened when Derry won in 93 for example?
QuoteAre the rivalries more intense in Ulster than in the rest of the country?
Were you sickened when Derry won in 93 for example?
I was quite pleased for Derry.
Fermanagh beat Armagh in the QF in a game in which we should have won and where we had a good shot at progressing to the AI Final. Quite upsetting.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 12:49:52 PM
If counties (especially my own) get their house in order and raise the standard then I believe the open draw is worth a shot
errr.....if counties are not competititive because they haven't "got their house in order" then it doesnt really matter what system is in place.
I think that some kind of Senior/Intermediate/Junior system needs to be in place. Kerry playing Waterford/Clare or Donegal playing Fermanagh/Antrim does nobody any good whatsoever.
I think it needs to go to some kind of seeded Champions League format for it to work out with possibly having the Junior & Intermediates playing off for a QF/Semi Final position in the AISFC so that EVERY team has a chance to win the All Ireland as they currently do. Also whichever team comes through that test will be better prepared to take on the big guns.
Quote from: screenexile on June 20, 2013, 02:03:34 PM
I think that some kind of Senior/Intermediate/Junior system needs to be in place. Kerry playing Waterford/Clare or Donegal playing Fermanagh/Antrim does nobody any good whatsoever.
I think it needs to go to some kind of seeded Champions League format for it to work out with possibly having the Junior & Intermediates playing off for a QF/Semi Final position in the AISFC so that EVERY team has a chance to win the All Ireland as they currently do. Also whichever team comes through that test will be better prepared to take on the big guns.
Fermanagh would have beaten Donegal a few years ago. The notion that Donegal will be big guns in a few years is laughable. Ask Meath .
Quote from: armaghniac on June 20, 2013, 01:48:40 PM
QuoteAre the rivalries more intense in Ulster than in the rest of the country?
Were you sickened when Derry won in 93 for example?
I was quite pleased for Derry.
Fermanagh beat Armagh in the QF in a game in which we should have won and where we had a good shot at progressing to the AI Final. Quite upsetting.
That Armagh team should have won more than 1 all Ireland alright.
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2013, 02:14:48 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 20, 2013, 01:48:40 PM
QuoteAre the rivalries more intense in Ulster than in the rest of the country?
Were you sickened when Derry won in 93 for example?
I was quite pleased for Derry.
Fermanagh beat Armagh in the QF in a game in which we should have won and where we had a good shot at progressing to the AI Final. Quite upsetting.
That Armagh team should have won more than 1 all Ireland alright.
You can look at it just as easily from the other direction - Sligo had them beat in 2002 and if they had would anyone have clamoured about a team that were knocked out by Sligo and Fermanagh two out of three years? Of course not.
Sport is best when the margins are fine, our target shouldn't be to have 'teams playing at their level' but figuring out how to get more teams playing at the top level. Breaking the monopoly of D1 teams and moving back to a 1A and 1B system in the league is the low hanging fruit but it needs to only be the first step.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 20, 2013, 01:51:51 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 12:49:52 PM
If counties (especially my own) get their house in order and raise the standard then I believe the open draw is worth a shot
errr.....if counties are not competititive because they haven't "got their house in order" then it doesnt really matter what system is in place.
That's true and we'll have to do that, It's just the giving the bigger teams another go that annoys me, if they happened to be shocked in a game they were fancied to win then tahts good ( i.e club All Ireland style).
To play Kerry in Casement in the first round would be grand, the result may be what we would predict but would generate some interest, well up here anyways, as it is, we'll be out next week against Louth if we don't up it a gear or six
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2013, 02:13:24 PM
Quote from: screenexile on June 20, 2013, 02:03:34 PM
I think that some kind of Senior/Intermediate/Junior system needs to be in place. Kerry playing Waterford/Clare or Donegal playing Fermanagh/Antrim does nobody any good whatsoever.
I think it needs to go to some kind of seeded Champions League format for it to work out with possibly having the Junior & Intermediates playing off for a QF/Semi Final position in the AISFC so that EVERY team has a chance to win the All Ireland as they currently do. Also whichever team comes through that test will be better prepared to take on the big guns.
Fermanagh would have beaten Donegal a few years ago. The notion that Donegal will be big guns in a few years is laughable. Ask Meath .
Yeah but if Fermanagh begin to flourish at their level and progress they will be better equipped to play a big gun (It's Donegal now but of course that will change from time to time). At the minute it's pointless for those 2 to be playing eachother in the Championship.
QuoteYeah, doing away with the only real cash cow outside Dublin at Croke Park that the sport has is no real loss.
Doing what you said would have a devastating effect on the funding of other loss-making grades of the sport, particularly clubs, nevermind the effects on senior itself.
Jesus wept, are you incapable of thinking something through? If you devise a format, like the one I proposed, you will lose some things but gain others. If you take my system, then you could have 3 or 4 live TV games every week and 20+ important, competitive IC games on every week for 8 or 9 weeks. Then your into do or die championship for around 8 weeks so the overall gate receipts will increase significantly, advertising revenue and TV money will increase significantly also so the overall pot is hugely increased and everyones a winner.
QuoteNo harm but to pick a few incidents does not mean it is not taken serious. There is no doubt the companionship is taken more seriously but to say that counties don't treat it serious is baffling, do they go out to lose on purpose.
You want club championships to be played before the summer. No harm but what county is going to play their flagship competition in bad conditions by choice.
The GAA sells itself on local rivalry, ask any Louth fan who'd they would like to play in the championship and it will 99% of the time be Meath, if you tell them they are away to Cork, you'll have no one at the game. You have more chance of counties local to each other getting attendances even if a hammering is to be dished out, look at Mayo and Roscommon for example.
Anyway the great thing it'll never change.
I picked a few incidents out of many, how many would prove you wrong? Not taking it seriously and going out to lose are two very different things, if I play 5 a side soccer I don't take it seriously but I still want to win and still give a bit of effort but it isn't the same as when I play championship football. If you pay into an IC match you should be seeing two full strength teams, well prepared and fully focused on winning, anything else should be for the challenge match circuit.
I don't want club championships to be played before the summer, where did you get that?
The GAA doesn't sell itself on local rivalry, it's part of it but it isn't the only thing. Anyway, are Kilkenny Waterford or Kilkenny Tipp not local rivalries? How about Clare and Galway or Cavan and Meath, or Roscommon and Westmeath? All prevented from happening regularly due to the provincial format. Kerry Tyrone was far more important to fans in the 2000's than Kerry Limerick or Tyrone Antrim which are local rivalries are they not? As for attendances, well all formats will still produce games between counties close to each other.
Anyway the great thing is it will change as more and more people use logic rather than.....well I don't know what you're using but it ain't logic. I only hope I see it sooner rather than later.
Quote from: Zulu on June 20, 2013, 02:50:37 PM
Jesus wept, are you incapable of thinking something through? If you devise a format, like the one I proposed, you will lose some things but gain others. If you take my system, then you could have 3 or 4 live TV games every week and 20+ important, competitive IC games on every week for 8 or 9 weeks. Then your into do or die championship for around 8 weeks so the overall gate receipts will increase significantly, advertising revenue and TV money will increase significantly also so the overall pot is hugely increased and everyones a winner.
Show us a sample championship weekend in your system and then we can evaluate how many important, competitive games we can all look forward to.
Quote from: Zulu on June 20, 2013, 02:50:37 PM
QuoteYeah, doing away with the only real cash cow outside Dublin at Croke Park that the sport has is no real loss.
Doing what you said would have a devastating effect on the funding of other loss-making grades of the sport, particularly clubs, nevermind the effects on senior itself.
Jesus wept, are you incapable of thinking something through? If you devise a format, like the one I proposed, you will lose some things but gain others. If you take my system, then you could have 3 or 4 live TV games every week and 20+ important, competitive IC games on every week for 8 or 9 weeks. Then your into do or die championship for around 8 weeks so the overall gate receipts will increase significantly, advertising revenue and TV money will increase significantly also so the overall pot is hugely increased and everyones a winner.
You're right Zulu but this penny has yet to drop with the provincial councils.
Heads need banged together.
Quote from: deiseach on June 20, 2013, 03:09:01 PM
Quote from: Zulu on June 20, 2013, 02:50:37 PM
Jesus wept, are you incapable of thinking something through? If you devise a format, like the one I proposed, you will lose some things but gain others. If you take my system, then you could have 3 or 4 live TV games every week and 20+ important, competitive IC games on every week for 8 or 9 weeks. Then your into do or die championship for around 8 weeks so the overall gate receipts will increase significantly, advertising revenue and TV money will increase significantly also so the overall pot is hugely increased and everyones a winner.
Show us a sample championship weekend in your system and then we can evaluate how many important, competitive games we can all look forward to.
If the league is linked to championship and teams are seeded on the basis of their performance in the league then take any round of the leagues just finished (football and hurling as both are played on the same weekends) and take that as your sample. Now bear in mind that this isn't mid February but probably April and May so all teams are up to speed and playing their strongest teams. So you could be travelling to see Waterford play Cork in the pairc in May but also getting to see Cork against the Dubs as part of a double header for example. As long as supporters know the teams are trying and you'll see the best players on the pitch not in the seats beside you then many fixtures could draw big crowds especially as at least one team is at home.
Quote from: Zulu on June 20, 2013, 03:26:51 PM
If the league is linked to championship and teams are seeded on the basis of their performance in the league then take any round of the leagues just finished (football and hurling as both are played on the same weekends) and take that as your sample. Now bear in mind that this isn't mid February but probably April and May so all teams are up to speed and playing their strongest teams. So you could be travelling to see Waterford play Cork in the pairc in May but also getting to see Cork against the Dubs as part of a double header for example. As long as supporters know the teams are trying and you'll see the best players on the pitch not in the seats beside you then many fixtures could draw big crowds especially as at least one team is at home.
You haven't answered my question. You said "you could have 3 or 4 live TV games every week and 20+ important, competitive IC games on every week for 8 or 9 weeks". You've given me one double header in hurling and football. Who would the Waterford footballers be playing that weekend? Would anyone be watching the Dublin hurlers?
Would it be feasible to have groups within each province, thus keeping everyone happy?
2 in Ulster and Leinster and 1 each in Munster and Connacht.
I have answered your question;
Quotethen take any round of the leagues just finished (football and hurling as both are played on the same weekends) and take that as your sample
So to clarify, on any given weekend you'd have 4 division 1, 2, 3 & 4 football games (4X4 = 16 football games) and 4 division 1 & 2 hurling games (2 X 4 = 8 ) so 24 games in total. You'd have division 3 & 4 games in hurling too but they wouldn't feed into the Liam McCarthy.
You'd have games on Saturdays, Sundays and, if possible Fridays and double headers when you can.
Quote from: Zulu on June 20, 2013, 03:43:43 PM
I have answered your question;
Quotethen take any round of the leagues just finished (football and hurling as both are played on the same weekends) and take that as your sample
So to clarify, on any given weekend you'd have 4 division 1, 2, 3 & 4 football games (4X4 = 16 football games) and 4 division 1 & 2 hurling games (2 X 4 = 8) so 24 games in total. You'd have division 3 & 4 games in hurling too but they wouldn't feed into the Liam McCarthy.
You'd have games on Saturdays, Sundays and, if possible Fridays and double headers when you can.
Why do you think anyone would be more inclined to watch those games than the current League games? Look at the qualifier games coming up. As amaghniac pointed out (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=22023.msg1244074#msg1244074), Antrim v Louth is a genuine knockout match between two (relatively) evenly matched teams. The winner takes one step close to Sam Maguire, the loser goes home. Somehow I don't think it'll be an all-ticket affair. Yet despite this, you think setting up the League in such a way that the games will lead to Antrim v Louth-style knockout matchups will actually boost interest in the League encounters? Let me put it this way. I don't see RTÉ or TV3 beating down the GAA's door to televise three or four of those matches every weekend.
And Antrim v Louth is a 90 minute drive, with a regular bus service, quite feasible to travel, but poorly attended. Derry v Tipp or Down v Clare is much further, even with improved travel times nowadays.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 20, 2013, 03:57:20 PM
And Antrim v Louth is a 90 minute drive, with a regular bus service, quite feasible to travel, but poorly attended. Derry v Tipp or Down v Clare is much further, even with improved travel times nowadays.
Good point. The size of attendances at a big Championship match at any given point in the GAA's history might give the impression that there is a constituency who would attend games frequently if only there was enough meaning to the game. The problem is that you can't multiply the number of games without diminishing the importance. There would have been tens of thousands or Antrim and Louth fans at their recent appearances in their respective provincial finals (apologies to any Louth fans reading this for reminding them of that day) but that was for a rare final appearance in each case. For an first round open draw game? The upcoming game will tell us the core constituency for each county.
They show LOI games live, rabo direct rugby games and heineken cup group games live don't they? You're telling me Kilkenny v Tipp or Dublin v Kerry in May with knockout championship games 3 or 4 weeks away wouldn't appeal to supporters or TV stations? On a given weekend you could have Dublin v Donegal, Tyrone v Down, Kerry v Mayo (football) Kilkenny v Cork, Tipp v Clare, Galway V Dublin (hurling) now as long as all of them are pretty much at full strength and going out to give it a proper go then I see no reason why TV stations wouldn't want them.
The league now is viewed as prep for the championship with club, U21 IC football and University competitions all overlapping with the early rounds. Now throw in teams who aren't match fit, varying degrees of focus on the league and a general attitude of it being no big deal if we lose there is little wonder there isn't massive interest. Now my system (which I'm not saying is the only option or even the best) has the league at a time when all players should be available, time has been given to get fitness up and with a one chance saloon starting a week after the league ends (which has no final btw) means you can't but take it seriously. Also, with a seeding system there is real motivation for everyone to get to as high a division as you can so everybody below division 1 should be really going for it while everybody in division 1 should also be motivated to ease their passage to an All Ireland final.
QuoteAnd Antrim v Louth is a 90 minute drive, with a regular bus service, quite feasible to travel, but poorly attended. Derry v Tipp or Down v Clare is much further, even with improved travel times nowadays.
Yes but they aren't attractive games anyway. Besides, it isn't only about attendances, which would increase IMO, but it's also about giving everybody more games and a structure to the season, including clubs.
Quote from: deiseach on June 20, 2013, 04:08:05 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on June 20, 2013, 03:57:20 PM
And Antrim v Louth is a 90 minute drive, with a regular bus service, quite feasible to travel, but poorly attended. Derry v Tipp or Down v Clare is much further, even with improved travel times nowadays.
Good point. The size of attendances at a big Championship match at any given point in the GAA's history might give the impression that there is a constituency who would attend games frequently if only there was enough meaning to the game. The problem is that you can't multiply the number of games without diminishing the importance. There would have been tens of thousands or Antrim and Louth fans at their recent appearances in their respective provincial finals (apologies to any Louth fans reading this for reminding them of that day) but that was for a rare final appearance in each case. For an first round open draw game? The upcoming game will tell us the core constituency for each county.
A lot of people just watch the match on the telly as well. It's not cheap bringing a family of 4 to a match these days.
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2013, 04:31:15 PM
A lot of people just watch the match on the telly as well. It's not cheap bringing a family of 4 to a match these days.
Amazing how so many people seem to have families of 4 ;)
Quote from: deiseach on June 20, 2013, 04:33:00 PM
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2013, 04:31:15 PM
A lot of people just watch the match on the telly as well. It's not cheap bringing a family of 4 to a match these days.
Amazing how so many people seem to have families of 4 ;)
You can leave any excess of kids at a creche for comparison purposes
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 11:26:01 AM
. It's fair enough to give them a second chance.
It's that fair it cost Galway the All Ireland last year!!! [/quote]
Galway got 140 minutes over two games last September to win the HURLING All Ireland and weren't good enough.
In the old days so beloved of Milltown they wouldn't have been in Leinster anyway but instead getting a bye to the ( Hurling) All Ireland Semi final.
Quote from: Rossfan on June 20, 2013, 08:54:03 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 11:26:01 AM
. It's fair enough to give them a second chance.
It's that fair it cost Galway the All Ireland last year!!!
Galway got 140 minutes over two games last September to win the HURLING All Ireland and weren't good enough.
In the old days so beloved of Milltown they wouldn't have been in Leinster anyway but instead getting a bye to the ( Hurling) All Ireland Semi final.
[/quote]
Sure the hurlers never won anything on the first go.
1979 preceded 1980
1985 and 86 went before 87 and 88
But at least there are signs of progress. Which is more than we can say for the footballers.
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2013, 09:30:14 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 20, 2013, 08:54:03 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 11:26:01 AM
. It's fair enough to give them a second chance.
It's that fair it cost Galway the All Ireland last year!!!
Galway got 140 minutes over two games last September to win the HURLING All Ireland and weren't good enough.
In the old days so beloved of Milltown they wouldn't have been in Leinster anyway but instead getting a bye to the ( Hurling) All Ireland Semi final.
Sure the hurlers never won anything on the first go.
1979 preceded 1980
1985 and 86 went before 87 and 88
But at least there are signs of progress. Which is more than we can say for the footballers.
[/quote]
Believe me it does not get easier after having six chances! ;)
Quote from: seafoid on June 20, 2013, 09:30:14 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 20, 2013, 08:54:03 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 11:26:01 AM
. It's fair enough to give them a second chance.
It's that fair it cost Galway the All Ireland last year!!!
Galway got 140 minutes over two games last September to win the HURLING All Ireland and weren't good enough.
In the old days so beloved of Milltown they wouldn't have been in Leinster anyway but instead getting a bye to the ( Hurling) All Ireland Semi final.
Sure the hurlers never won anything on the first go.
1979 preceded 1980
1985 and 86 went before 87 and 88
But at least there are signs of progress. Which is more than we can say for the footballers.
[/quote]
Wasn't running ye down - just pointing out it wasn't "THE SYSTEM" that cost them the All Ireland as alleged by the nostalgic man from Antrim. :D
Hopefully they can go one step better this year.
To get back to football ( the real ALL Ireland sport :P) - no matter what system they come up with one thing urgently required is to tighten up the length of time it takes to play the Provincial Championships.
Leaving aside the NY junket the Connacht Championship of FIVE games takes from 19th May to 21st July to complete - TEN BLOODY WEEKS !!!!
Six weeks is plenty of time for that especially as long gaps between games are simply filled with County teams training and no Club championship games.
It seems Eugene McGee's Committee are going to propose moving Counties around the "Provinces" to have 4 "Provincial" Championships with 8 teams in each.
I wonder where will the Donegal v Westmeath "Connacht" final be played plus what will happen the NY junket?
Absolute nonsense - unless they change the titles to Northern, Western, Eastern, Southern. Then will borderline Counties get the option of which Region to join?
Will there be separate Councils for the Football Divisions/Regions and the hurling Provinces?
Champions League type thingy - If this comes about we will still need to keep the Provincials as stand alone competitions and seed the Champions or give them a perk of all their group games at home. One good thing about a 3 game group is , if they allow 3 weeks between games then Club championships could be progressed in tandem.
However if you're going to divide all the Counties into 8 groups of 4 the weakest teams will simply all disappear to the US for the Summer or just go through the motions.
So you'll need a B championship. To get that accepted by the no hopers you'd have to allow the winners back into the knock out stages of the A Championship. This will give some lucky County a handy passage to the closing stages.
A 32 County open draw with no Provincial championships - a lottery, financial disaster and quite frankly nonsense.
Go back to the oul style pre 2001 - no thanks.
You'd need a long winters night to address all the possible systems and their strong and weak points and the Longest day isn't the day for that.
Get the quoting right or im not coming back to this thread
I haven't seen anyone come up with weaknesses to my proposal which I think address most problems. The other system I've heard proposed is to mimic the NFL in America, which was along the lines of 4 'provincial' groups of 8 so you can still win your province but you also play teams from other counties. I'm a gridiron fan but I'm not too sure how their format works.
The bottom line for me is that you must start with a blank sheet of paper, nothing should be off the table. Then you decide what you want, for example -
1. Structured season
2. More competitive games
3. Time for clubs to play in a structured season
4. All teams have the same path to the All Ireland
5. Financially profitable
And so on. There is no point saying we must keep this or that. There is no point focusing on one or two aspects like attendances or tradition. We have to look at the whole season and accept that whatever format is proposed there will be weaknesses and you'll lose some things that might be hard to give up but if the overall package is improved for the vast majority of players, club and IC, then that has to be acceptable.
This isn't a knee jerk reaction to recent results, you'll always have hammerings, nail biters, poor attendances, massive crowds, great games, poor games, shocks and dominant teams in every format the thing to look for is structure, logic, and fairness. If Dublin and Kilkenny win every All Ireland between them after that then so be it. It's up to counties to address their own house as they'll no longer be able to say such and such a team has an easier route, a six day turn around, too long a gap between games etc.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 02:25:38 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on June 20, 2013, 01:51:51 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 20, 2013, 12:49:52 PM
If counties (especially my own) get their house in order and raise the standard then I believe the open draw is worth a shot
errr.....if counties are not competititive because they haven't "got their house in order" then it doesnt really matter what system is in place.
That's true and we'll have to do that, It's just the giving the bigger teams another go that annoys me, if they happened to be shocked in a game they were fancied to win then tahts good ( i.e club All Ireland style).
To play Kerry in Casement in the first round would be grand, the result may be what we would predict but would generate some interest, well up here anyways, as it is, we'll be out next week against Louth if we don't up it a gear or six
The distances/hassle would be too great. Scrap the provinces but draw a line across the country. 16 above. 16 below. then devise a system from there whereby 4 teams emerge from both groups. It would keep enough "traditional" matchups, add new ones, but avoid geographical problems.
If the provinces really wanted it (after that initial competition to narrow it down to eight) the two highest performing teams from each province could play for the provincial title as a seperate thing. That would retain the link between the AI championship and provincial championship but with the AI championship balanced and fair. The problem would be in defining "highest performing" from each province in that intial competition but , in principle, I think it could be done.
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 01:03:43 PM
I haven't seen anyone come up with weaknesses to my proposal
Ah come on. Plenty of us object fundamentally with your proposals. They don't want a Champions League-style system in the GAA. It would abolish the provincial structure that gives many smaller counties something to aim for replaces it with an almost unimaginably large amount of preliminary games just to get to a point where there's a serious knockout match. If I'm reading your proposals right, everyone plays seven games to see what their seeding will be in the knockout phase? That's just a ridiculous amount of faffing around. Let's assume everyone took it seriously. That would mean that each year you'd have Kerry or Dublin near the top and Waterford and London near the bottom. You can be certain that within a few years people would be heartily sick of playing seven games so they can be roasted by the same old faces. Yes, that happens in the current system but even the worst counties can hope for a decent draw in the qualifiers and a run there. If someone offered me your system or a pure open draw, I wouldn't hesitate in taking the latter.
Zulu, you've been fairly animated about this subject for years, fair play to you, but I have to say that I think your solution is only going to increase the number of meaningless games. I accept that linking it to league positions will make people take the league more seriously, but as soon as it settles down, you will be even further from achieving anything that anybody outside the dressing room cares about.
In your system, the only winners (unless I'm misreading this) will be the All Ireland Champions. No Westmeath, Laois, Roscommon, Leitrim, Clare, Cavan fairytales. Just endless jockeying for position in the middle of the pack for the right to move up one seeding place, but never really having anything tangilble for people to be nervous over, or celebrate wildly, which is a huge part of our games. People in Westmeath will never, ever forget 2004. They're not likely to see an All Ireland win, certainly in the near future, and therfore you are removing the only meaningful target that the people of Westmeath can aim for. I can't see a lorry in Mullingar for achieving a 2nd seed in the championship.
I think what is motivating you is really trying to ensure that the best teams contest the Sam Maguire, and I don't think increasing the amount of mediocre games which really and truly mean very little is going to point to that. I think your end game could be achieved by simply linking the counties to their league positions, and then running off a tiered championship. I wouldn't be in favour of this because it is removing the provincial championships (and the provincial championships are still dear to me anyway).
However, this is how I think something like that would work out.
League Tables 2013. -> All Ireland Series Draw.,
Division 1 teams & Division 2 Teams = Sam Maguire
Division 3 teams & Division 4 teams = Tommy Murphy or Intermediate or whatever.
4 groups of 4 in each.
Top 8 teams make 1/4 finals
If this was run in 2013, it would have panned out like this...
Sam Maguire Group A
Dublin (Div 1 First)
Cork (Div 1 Fifth)
Derry (DIv 2 First)
Galway (Div 2 Fifth)
Sam Maguire Group B
Tyrone (Div 1 Second)
Kerry (Div 1 Sixth)
Westmeath (Div 2 Second)
Armagh (Div 2 Sixth)
Sam Maguire Group C
Kildare (Div 1 Third)
Donegal (Div 1 Seventh)
Laois (Div 2 Third)
Wexford (Div 2 Seventh)
Sam Maguire Group D
Mayo (Div 1 Fourth)
Down (Div 1 Eighth)
Louth (Div 2 Fourth)
Longford (Div 2 Eighth)
Tommy Murphy Group A
Monaghan
Cavan
Limerick
Leitrim
Tommy Murphy Group B
Meath
Sligo
Offaly
Waterford
Tommy Murphy Group C
Roscommon
Antrim
Tipperary
Carlow
Tommy Murphy Group D
Fermanagh
Wicklow
Clare
London
That's a grand groupeen you put us in AZ ;D
No matter what All Ireland system(s) is adopted the Provincials should remain.
With a shortened NFL you would have 5 months April to Aug incl to play the championships ( with both Club and county progressing together) and leave September free for County Semis and Finals.
If you're going down a Sam/Tommy and NFL link route -
Sam to consist of the 8 Prov Finalists and the 8 next highest League teams
Tommy - the rest
Maybe that would be a nice way of doing it Ross, but in fairness from 2012 you'd have the likes of Clare up in Sam by getting to a munster final in 2012.
I can hear the wails of protest from Leinster and Ulster already :)
Rossfan;
QuoteIt would mean no point in the D4 teams bothering with the Championship. Based on this year's NFL final placings your 1st Round would have
Dublin V London, Tyrone v Carlow, Kildare v Waterford, Mayo v Leitrim, Cork v Clare, Kerry v Tipp, Donegal v Offaly and Down v Limerick.
That's true now so my proposal isn't any worse than the current format on those grounds. But at least my format gives Waterford (for example) a chance to get away from Cork and Kerry and also win something tangible. They could win division 4, which would be a genuine achievement when all their fellow div 4 opponents are trying to win it too and by getting to division 3 they would be up against division 2 teams the following championship, not Kerry or Cork. In addition, if they got promoted again they would be playing a division 3 team the following year so teams like Tipp or Offaly who would have serious ambitions of climbing the ladder have both realistic silverware to challenge for and the potential to have a good run in the championship should they work their way up the leagues.
QuoteAt least with open draws weaker teams have some chance of getting a winnable game but structuring definite defeats and indeed hammerings is a def weakness in your proposal.
Poor teams should be beaten and knocked out early but if you get your house in order this gives you a chance to improve and as supporters of the provincials claim, they have a one off game against better teams with a chance to progress in the championship. For example, it wouldn't be a foregone conclusion that Limerick would lose to Down but what chance had they this year having to beat both Kerry and Cork? If they beat Down in the first round they would be into the last 16 and with a decent draw possibly the last 8, what chance have they of making that under the current system?
Deiseach;
QuoteAh come on. Plenty of us object fundamentally with your proposals. They don't want a Champions League-style system in the GAA. It would abolish the provincial structure that gives many smaller counties something to aim for replaces it with an almost unimaginably large amount of preliminary games just to get to a point where there's a serious knockout match.
Folks disagreed but I didn't see any real pro/con arguments. This isn't a champions league format, nothing like it in fact. My proposal as I mentioned gives all teams something
realistic to aim for not some notional idea that a weaker team has something to aim for. Yes, weaker teams do win provincial championships but only when they get pretty good themselves and only on the very rare occasion. Not enough to justify the hair brain structure to the season and the impact this has on club players. In my proposal, weaker teams can win divisions and also get easier paths to an All Ireland by getting good so when a Sligo or Laois get a good squad they could win 3 division titles (all worthwhile as teams are actually trying to win them) and improve their chances of progressing in the All Ireland.
QuoteIf I'm reading your proposals right, everyone plays seven games to see what their seeding will be in the knockout phase? That's just a ridiculous amount of faffing around. Let's assume everyone took it seriously. That would mean that each year you'd have Kerry or Dublin near the top and Waterford and London near the bottom.
It's not faffing around as each game is important and each season builds upon the previous one. If Waterford or London can't get out of division 4 then they should be knocked out early, why should we have a system that prolongs a season for weaker teams. My one gives them a path to progress you seem to want to pat them on the head for trying. Why should the majority of club footballers in Waterford wait around for the inevitable when my proposal gives Waterford 7 competitive games and one do or die shot at a big gun and if Waterford improve, so do their All Ireland hopes?
QuoteYou can be certain that within a few years people would be heartily sick of playing seven games so they can be roasted by the same old faces. Yes, that happens in the current system but even the worst counties can hope for a decent draw in the qualifiers and a run there.
See previous points. If you are the manager of a weaker county you could aim to climb the ladder to get a good run in the championship, in other words a real achievable goal. They have nothing now, look at all the boys leaving for the US rather than faff around in the qualifiers until they meet a team that will knock them out. and next year the depressing merry go round will start all over again.
AZ, I'll get to you later!!
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 03:18:28 PM
Folks disagreed but I didn't see any real pro/con arguments.
People are explaining to you why they don't like your proposals, so they must be wrong. I give up.
QuotePeople are explaining to you why they don't like your proposals, so they must be wrong. I give up.
Not until, AZ and Rossfan did I see any real constructive criticism or responses to my defence of the format. A tactic you're continuing I see. I've never claimed it was a perfect solution, only a better one than the present one but you've neither explained why the current one is good or offered any real reason why mine isn't other than you don't like it.
Tell me how it doesn't improve the lot of club players v the current format.
Tell me how it doesn't improve the number of meaningful games v the current format.
Tell me how it doesn't improve promotion, exposure and finance generating potential of the GAA v the current format.
Tell me how it doesn't improve the chances of a county progressing as a team over time v the current format.
By the way, for my approach to work, we should have a tommy murphy game and a sam maguire game as a double header for the quarter and semi finals. At least if you treated this competition respectfully, teams might actually try and win it. Put it on with a Sam Maguire game, and put them on TV.
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
Tell me how it doesn't improve the lot of club players v the current format.
The problem for club players is a lack of will in various County Boards (of which my county is one of the worst) to enforce a functioning club championship. If the will isn't there, no format is going to fix that.
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
Tell me how it doesn't improve the number of meaningful games v the current format.
You seem to think linking League games to the Championship automatically makes them meaningful. It doesn't, any more than teams in the NHL stateside playing 82 regular season games to lead up to the playoffs makes all those games 'meaningful'. At least in their NHL nearly half the teams get eliminated!
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 03:30:08 PMTell me how it doesn't improve promotion, exposure and finance generating potential of the GAA v the current format.
As I said above, just because they're part of the Championship proper doesn't make them meaningful, or not at least what I would term meaningful. A huge phony war before the real action starts. As I said previously, I'd rather a pure open draw.
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 03:30:08 PMTell me how it doesn't improve the chances of a county progressing as a team over time v the current format.
Nope. The problems of a lack of competitive county teams are not solved at inter-county level. A county panel can only work with what it is given by its clubs. It's akin to saying the fortunes of San Marino could be improved, if only Fifa could come up with the right format.
Through all of this, I appreciate that you want what's best, I really do. That doesn't stop me thinking your proposals are misconceived. And with that, I leave the final word to you. Honest ;)
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 21, 2013, 03:07:02 PM
Maybe that would be a nice way of doing it Ross, but in fairness from 2012 you'd have the likes of Clare up in Sam by getting to a munster final in 2012.
I can hear the wails of protest from Leinster and Ulster already :)
Jayses -we must be doing something right so :P :P :P
QuoteZulu, you've been fairly animated about this subject for years, fair play to you, but I have to say that I think your solution is only going to increase the number of meaningless games. I accept that linking it to league positions will make people take the league more seriously, but as soon as it settles down, you will be even further from achieving anything that anybody outside the dressing room cares about.
Why do you say that AZ? I think I addressed some of that in my other response but I think all games would be serious due to seeding, the proximity to championship and the fact that if teams have their best teams out players want to really win.
QuoteIn your system, the only winners (unless I'm misreading this) will be the All Ireland Champions. No Westmeath, Laois, Roscommon, Leitrim, Clare, Cavan fairytales. Just endless jockeying for position in the middle of the pack for the right to move up one seeding place, but never really having anything tangilble for people to be nervous over, or celebrate wildly, which is a huge part of our games. People in Westmeath will never, ever forget 2004. They're not likely to see an All Ireland win, certainly in the near future, and therfore you are removing the only meaningful target that the people of Westmeath can aim for. I can't see a lorry in Mullingar for achieving a 2nd seed in the championship.
As mentioned the idea is that winning your division would take on similar meaning to winning your division in soccer around the world. Now I know that's a bit of apples and oranges but the satisfaction of winning for supporters and players comes not from the trophy but the knowledge that you beat the best everyone else had to offer. The joy in winning an Offaly intermediate football championship isn't diluted for the players or supporters with the fact that the same team wouldn't win the Dublin senior championship so I think winning division 3 in a proper competitive league would come to mean something.
QuoteI think what is motivating you is really trying to ensure that the best teams contest the Sam Maguire, and I don't think increasing the amount of mediocre games which really and truly mean very little is going to point to that.
I don't see how the number of mediocre games is increased though, unless I don't understand my own format! The only weak round is the first round of the championship where division 4 meet division 1 but the division 2 and 3 games would be largely 50:50 and every round after would hold the possibility of shocks for sure.
What about the NFL system AZ, any merit in that?
Quote from: deiseach on June 21, 2013, 03:45:44 PM
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
Tell me how it doesn't improve the lot of club players v the current format.
The problem for club players is a lack of will in various County Boards (of which my county is one of the worst) to enforce a functioning club championship. If the will isn't there, no format is going to fix that.
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 03:30:08 PM
Tell me how it doesn't improve the number of meaningful games v the current format.
You seem to think linking League games to the Championship automatically makes them meaningful. It doesn't, any more than teams in the NHL stateside playing 82 regular season games to lead up to the playoffs makes all those games 'meaningful'. At least in their NHL nearly half the teams get eliminated!
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 03:30:08 PMTell me how it doesn't improve promotion, exposure and finance generating potential of the GAA v the current format.
As I said above, just because they're part of the Championship proper doesn't make them meaningful, or not at least what I would term meaningful. A huge phony war before the real action starts. As I said previously, I'd rather a pure open draw.
Quote from: Zulu on June 21, 2013, 03:30:08 PMTell me how it doesn't improve the chances of a county progressing as a team over time v the current format.
Nope. The problems of a lack of competitive county teams are not solved at inter-county level. A county panel can only work with what it is given by its clubs. It's akin to saying the fortunes of San Marino could be improved, if only Fifa could come up with the right format.
Through all of this, I appreciate that you want what's best, I really do. That doesn't stop me thinking your proposals are misconceived. And with that, I leave the final word to you. Honest ;)
Good man deiseach, that's more like it!
On the clubs, I agree there is a lack of leadership at CB level in many counties but the format doesn't help either and I strongly believe that whatever format you use it must be clear when you county teams are playing and when they are not. The current format doesn't do that so we must, IMO, change it.
On the league games being meaningful and promotion, well nobody knows for sure whether they would be genuinely taken seriously but I think logic dictates they would due to the timing of the and genuine chance of winning something and improving your lot. As I said previously no format will guarantee loads of sold out games with both teams going for it 100% but we need to try and get as close to that as we can. I think my proposal has a decent chance of getting there. With only 7 league games most teams should have something worthwhile to play for until at least the last game or two and by that stage the championship is only 3 or 4 weeks away so teams will probably want to get good games even if they have nothing really to play for. This in turn should keep the crowds fairly big and with a large number of games to chose from the TV stations will have games worthwhile televising each week.
On the improvement of teams, I agree 100% but again I would create leagues for minor and U21 and prevent players from playing for more than one code or level. So that these players get numerous games to develop and once in the senior set up if the are improving in the league they should improve in the championship. In the current system, Tipp could be knocked out by Kerry and then get a Tyrone and their whole year is done after two meaningful games and nothing until next summer when they might meet Kerry again.
Format has never been the main problem, it's been schedule and coaching. You can't hope to change the schedule at senior without re-thinking everything else on the calender too because just about every other grade serves senior when it comes to the master planner for the year. It has to be holistic. Even tightening up the calendar we have today would greatly increase its efficiency but we'd then have to figure out how to use that extra time to improve schedules at other levels.
Given how poor the GAA is at doing that we can't just expect because we've created space it will be elegantly filled by something else. Politics above all else is vested deep within the reason the calendar became a mess and why it remains broken.
The only format change I see making any real difference right now is switching back to a 1A/1B NFL so as to break the D1 monopoly and allow more teams to compete with the best. I'd keep D3/D4 as D2/D3 tiers rather than returning to the 2A/2B crap of old because it would allow teams a more natural build towards the highest level.
Coaching, funding. Those are the two things that will define if the now massive group of mid-tier counties will ever be able to compete with the big boys again. The GAA needs to open its counties' books and get some forensic accountants in to figure out how much (or how little) is being spent by each county at each grade. That means revenue, donations, free 'holidays', whatever has an impact on the organisation in any way.
I still think some manner of pooled revenue/ min-max cap is the only way to ensure a healthier competition at senior level. In the end our goal for the highest grade should be to have the largest possible number of competitive teams because nothing draws interest more than matches where neither side is at all sure of victory.
Having six or seven teams 'and the rest' is a quick route to a sport that will lose mindshare in the country at large. The gaps are becoming larger and larger and we should be thinking about ways to leverage the interest and passion for the sports in counties not at the top tier rather than divorcing them from their 'betters' and placing them in near-pointless second tier competitions.
Zulu, Maybe I'm not understanding your proposal, but it seems like your criteria for meaningful games is a well matched game in the championship, and that each game in the league which would 'seed' the teams would by definition be meaningful because it will determine seed.
I would argue that while the players and mentors might well set themselves goals of getting into division 3, and earning a #3 seed, there would be very little buzz, or excitement about that as a target for the year from the GAA public. As I said, jockeying for position in an endless cycle of division 2,3 and 4 for the right to be knocked out by a top seed is not a very appetising or enthusing prospect, so therefore in my mind, as far as the public (who are the ones that make a championship great or otherwise) are concerned, you'd probably have a whole pile of games being played, but at the end of it it's still the top 4 or 5 that will be winning the All Ireland.
I know that happens at the moment, but I don't see this proposal really improving that, and I see it actually giving the lesser lights one less target that their public might get excited about (a provincial final).
I might be wrong, but you've said numerous times that you want to see the real best teams slugging it out for Sam. You're not a fan of the romantic upset, because it dilutes the quality of the final stages. So therefore what I was suggesting as an alternative would allow you to still make your league meaningful, maybe even more so, and link performance there to your championship seedings. But instead of having the weaker counties acting as cannon fodder for the big ones, they would play for their own properly backed Cup, which would be a real target. I still think a provincial title is worth 5 of these new things, but at least it gives them something they can drink out of :)
Then as they improve in the leagues, they will make the top 16 and thus enter the Sam Maguire at a level where they should not be blown away, and would get at least 3 games up there, with two qualfying, so they should have something to play for at least into the second game. This would reduce meaningless matches.
I love the provincial championships. I love the fact that Leitrim might be in a Connacht Final again, or that Cavan might get to an Ulster final, or that Kildare might win a Leinster again. They'd be celebrated in those counties like an All Ireland would be in Tyrone, Kerry or Dublin.
However, if there is to be a change, I'd encourage a change that at least allows the Cavans, Offalys, Louths and Roscommons something to aim for, something that the public would recognise as an achievement, because lets face it, in our games public recognition and adulation are huge motivating factors for our players. As I said, I'm not sure earning a #3 seed would cause many tyres to be burned in Offaly.
Simple really. Play off the provincials in May June. Break each province into two with the winners of each group playing in a final. That way each side should get two / three games in a round robin and the integrity of the provinces is retained. Then in July a straight out of the hat championship open draw. Lose and your gone. 32 teams then 16 then 4 and then the final. Currently its a bore that only comes to life at the QF stage. death by a thousand cuts. free the damn thing
What are the objectives people want from a new system and in what order of priority?
Reading the thread we seem to want:
* more games;
* meaningful games;
* tradition respected, e.g provincial finals;
* a greater spread of winners;
* a proper schedule of regular games;
* a meaningful second competition;
* improvement from weaker teams;
* more that I have missed;
Some of the solutions don't really address a lot of the above issues.
I have said it many times before but I like the proposal from over ten years ago from a committee which included O'Rourke and Martin Carney.
3 divisions.
Div 1a top 11 teams from Ulster/Connacht
Div 1b top 11 teams from Leinster/Munster
Div 2 the rest with promotion to Div 1a & 1b.
Each division plays every team once on a biannual home/away basis. The top 2 teams from each province within the Div 1s play provincial finals, followed by an AIS and an AIF.
It is not perfect as for example, the two Connacht teams might finish 5th and 6th and still be in the competition while higher placed Ulster teams would drop out, but it would give regular meaningful games, a proper championship season with a minimum of 10 games for each team and relegation would be a real threat to keep things interesting.
Quote from: southsidejohnny on June 21, 2013, 04:19:06 PM
Simple really. Play off the provincials in May June. Break each province into two with the winners of each group playing in a final. That way each side should get two / three games in a round robin and the integrity of the provinces is retained. Then in July a straight out of the hat championship open draw. Lose and your gone. 32 teams then 16 then 4 and then the final. Currently its a bore that only comes to life at the QF stage. death by a thousand cuts. free the damn thing
As long as we are in with Leitrim and London I don't mind.
Are you going to eliminate some teams without giving them a chance to play??
Surely you'd seed or give some perk to the Provincial champions instead of an open draw lottery :o
Quote from: muppet on June 21, 2013, 04:25:25 PM
.
It is not perfect as for example, the two Connacht teams might finish 5th and 6th and still be in the competition while higher placed Ulster teams would drop out,.
That is where it fell down when first mooted.
Also a lot of meaningless games and you're still in the Provincial strait jacket.
Quote from: Rossfan on June 21, 2013, 04:54:03 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 21, 2013, 04:25:25 PM
.
It is not perfect as for example, the two Connacht teams might finish 5th and 6th and still be in the competition while higher placed Ulster teams would drop out,.
That is where it fell down when first mooted.
Also a lot of meaningless games and you're still in the Provincial strait jacket.
You could get relegated, so not quite that meaningless.
Quote from: muppet on June 21, 2013, 04:25:25 PM
What are the objectives people want from a new system and in what order of priority?
Reading the thread we seem to want:
* more games;
* meaningful games;
* tradition respected, e.g provincial finals;
* a greater spread of winners;
* a proper schedule of regular games;
* a meaningful second competition;
* improvement from weaker teams;
* more that I have missed;
Some of the solutions don't really address a lot of the above issues.
I have said it many times before but I like the proposal from over ten years ago from a committee which included O'Rourke and Martin Carney.
3 divisions.
Div 1a top 11 teams from Ulster/Connacht
Div 1b top 11 teams from Leinster/Munster
Div 2 the rest with promotion to Div 1a & 1b.
Each division plays every team once on a biannual home/away basis. The top 2 teams from each province within the Div 1s play provincial finals, followed by an AIS and an AIF.
It is not perfect as for example, the two Connacht teams might finish 5th and 6th and still be in the competition while higher placed Ulster teams would drop out, but it would give regular meaningful games, a proper championship season with a minimum of 10 games for each team and relegation would be a real threat to keep things interesting.
That's actually a good point muppet. I think the sense is there that there is something 'wrong', but nobody seems to have come up with the definition of the problem. Without consensus on that, it would be very hard to define a solution that will properly address what ails the championships (if anything).
As I see it, the problems are
- National League is undervalued and under appreciated by the general public, and by the more successful counties.
- Huge levels of preparation and expense are required to operate at the top level, and the gap is widening between those who are operating at this level, and those who are unwilling (or more likely unable) to match that sort of outlay.
- As a result of the second issue, the All Ireland championship is largely a series of minor skirmishes until August, when the last 8 start in earnest. In most cases, the last 8 is made up of at least 5 or 6 who were in the last 8 last year, and can be predicted at the start of this year.
- In turn, this makes many of the games academic at best.
Now, whether these are new problems or not is a moot point.
- The National League was always undervalued, certainly in the last 30 years or so.
- The preparation difference is relatively new I think. Some of the differences in physique and fitness between teams of nominally the same level is unbelievable.
- I do believe the back door has removed intensity of the provincial championships, and I believe it was brought in to benefit the strong counties who might get caught on the hop, not to give weaker teams a second day out as mooted. The early days of the old straight knock out brought intensity and allowed teams to dream of shocks, while knowing if they lost they were out. Of course you still had blow outs, but if Dublin were caught by Laois down in Portlaoise, it had huge ramifications for the championship. Now it's a shrug of the shoulders and on to the qualifiers for Dublin. If the underdog loses, they don't really benefit too much from the back door because it's postponing the inevitable. Granted some teams have used the back door to gird their loins and go on great runs like Sligo, Fermanagh etc etc, but in general the players and the fans are not as fired up as they might be to see how far they can get. A 2nd round win followed by a third round loss is not the stuff that gets people excited.
So, solutions to the above?
-Link the league to the championship. Make the fans and the teams understand that there is a direct link to their chances of summer success depending on how far they get.
- The Preparation one, I have no idea. Unless some form of 'preparation cap' is implemented I don't see how you can stop better resourced counties preparing better. Science and proper preparation costs money, and some counties just can't or won't spend that sort of money.
- Could we link the championship draw to league form, but continue a provincial system?
If we rank the teams from 1 to 32 based on their league standing, and then within each province have a straight knockout based on where they finished in the league.
No backdoor, qualifiers or any other second chances.
If we said the top seeds get byes until the bottom seeds qualify to meet them, you could end up as follows.
Leinster
Dublin #1, Kildare #2;Westmeath #3, Laois #4, Louth #5, Wexford #6, Longford #7; Meath #8, Wicklow #9; Offaly #10, Carlow #11.
Quarter Finals.
Carlow versus Louth, winner to play Laois.
Offaly versus Wexford, winner to play Westmeath;
Wicklow versus Longford, winner to play Kildare;
Meath versus Dublin!! :)
QuoteFormat has never been the main problem, it's been schedule and coaching. You can't hope to change the schedule at senior without re-thinking everything else on the calender too because just about every other grade serves senior when it comes to the master planner for the year. It has to be holistic. Even tightening up the calendar we have today would greatly increase its efficiency but we'd then have to figure out how to use that extra time to improve schedules at other levels.
I agree but the first step is putting a definitive structure to every IC competition and preventing players represent numerous IC teams. Do that and you have some hope, don't and everything else is irrelevant. Look at this as a season and not as 'fixing' the championship.
QuoteZulu, Maybe I'm not understanding your proposal, but it seems like your criteria for meaningful games is a well matched game in the championship, and that each game in the league which would 'seed' the teams would by definition be meaningful because it will determine seed.
Not really AZ. The foundation of my proposal is definite structure. I want this so that an Offaly footballer and hurler at minor, U21 and senior can be handed a booklet with their fixtures at the start of the year. The Offaly CB can then do the same for club players in the county, this IMO is a huge advantage of my proposal and any other one that has the same structure. My structure also frees up large parts of the summer for club games.
QuoteI would argue that while the players and mentors might well set themselves goals of getting into division 3, and earning a #3 seed, there would be very little buzz, or excitement about that as a target for the year from the GAA public. As I said, jockeying for position in an endless cycle of division 2,3 and 4 for the right to be knocked out by a top seed is not a very appetising or enthusing prospect, so therefore in my mind, as far as the public (who are the ones that make a championship great or otherwise) are concerned, you'd probably have a whole pile of games being played, but at the end of it it's still the top 4 or 5 that will be winning the All Ireland.
But that's how it is now and how it should be in any format. Any competition should be structured to allow the cream rise to the top but my format gives everyone something to aim for and a pathway to improve. At the same time it still allows for shocks and the possibility that a team that had a poor league could still have a great championship.
QuoteI might be wrong, but you've said numerous times that you want to see the real best teams slugging it out for Sam. You're not a fan of the romantic upset, because it dilutes the quality of the final stages.
That's not the case and apologise if it came across like that but I do want the best teams playing each other more often in meaningful games and I think my format still gives the chance of lesser lights having a good run. For example, Cavan, in my format would have played a division 2 side in the first round of the championship and if they got over that they would be in the last 16. Now they would probably have to beat a team much stronger than themselves here but if they got a surprise victory her they'd be in the last 8 and Cavan would be going football crazy.
I don't care who wins the All Irelands every year or if it's dominated by some teams, that's sport and that's they way elite sport should be run. What I want is the best teams going at it more often, a road map for weaker teams to improve and more exposure for our games. Kilkenny we're told are possibly the greatest hurling team ever, well how often have we seen them play genuinely competitive games over the past decade (not close games, just games they had to win against another top team)?
I really enjoy the league every year in all divisions and both codes but if the best players were playing it would be really something IMO. It annoys the hell out of me when Marty asks some 'expert' was it a good championship, thats rubbish IMO. You never hear that being asked of a premier league pundit or Heineken cup pundit and why? One of the reasons is that there are a huge amount of games in those competitions and it should be the same for the GAA. We should be looking forward to numerous games each weekend and a season that builds to a crescendo but instead we have a fractured season. Look at Dublin, they played Westmeath and have to wait 5 weeks for their next game, ManU wouldn't be the worlds richest club if they had that carry on yet we have the biggest Irish sports team in action a handful of times a year.
I can't understand people not wanting more games especially when you can do that and get more time for the clubs.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 21, 2013, 02:51:09 PM
Zulu, you've been fairly animated about this subject for years, fair play to you, but I have to say that I think your solution is only going to increase the number of meaningless games. I accept that linking it to league positions will make people take the league more seriously, but as soon as it settles down, you will be even further from achieving anything that anybody outside the dressing room cares about.
In your system, the only winners (unless I'm misreading this) will be the All Ireland Champions. No Westmeath, Laois, Roscommon, Leitrim, Clare, Cavan fairytales. Just endless jockeying for position in the middle of the pack for the right to move up one seeding place, but never really having anything tangilble for people to be nervous over, or celebrate wildly, which is a huge part of our games. People in Westmeath will never, ever forget 2004. They're not likely to see an All Ireland win, certainly in the near future, and therfore you are removing the only meaningful target that the people of Westmeath can aim for. I can't see a lorry in Mullingar for achieving a 2nd seed in the championship.
I think what is motivating you is really trying to ensure that the best teams contest the Sam Maguire, and I don't think increasing the amount of mediocre games which really and truly mean very little is going to point to that. I think your end game could be achieved by simply linking the counties to their league positions, and then running off a tiered championship. I wouldn't be in favour of this because it is removing the provincial championships (and the provincial championships are still dear to me anyway).
However, this is how I think something like that would work out.
League Tables 2013. -> All Ireland Series Draw.,
Division 1 teams & Division 2 Teams = Sam Maguire
Division 3 teams & Division 4 teams = Tommy Murphy or Intermediate or whatever.
4 groups of 4 in each.
Top 8 teams make 1/4 finals
If this was run in 2013, it would have panned out like this...
Sam Maguire Group A
Dublin (Div 1 First)
Cork (Div 1 Fifth)
Derry (DIv 2 First)
Galway (Div 2 Fifth)
Sam Maguire Group B
Tyrone (Div 1 Second)
Kerry (Div 1 Sixth)
Westmeath (Div 2 Second)
Armagh (Div 2 Sixth)
Sam Maguire Group C
Kildare (Div 1 Third)
Donegal (Div 1 Seventh)
Laois (Div 2 Third)
Wexford (Div 2 Seventh)
Sam Maguire Group D
Mayo (Div 1 Fourth)
Down (Div 1 Eighth)
Louth (Div 2 Fourth)
Longford (Div 2 Eighth)
Tommy Murphy Group A
Monaghan
Cavan
Limerick
Leitrim
Tommy Murphy Group B
Meath
Sligo
Offaly
Waterford
Tommy Murphy Group C
Roscommon
Antrim
Tipperary
Carlow
Tommy Murphy Group D
Fermanagh
Wicklow
Clare
London
Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. ;D
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
The Centenary was a genuine attempt to see if people were interested in an open draw, all Ireland competition. They weren't and the experiment was scrapped after two years. That was in 1984/85 and I don't think public opinion has changed much since then.
In the interim, the back door has been opened and the Tommy Murphy came along.
Poor Tommy lasted only four years and I don't recall any county objecting when that competition was scrapped.
The qualifier system is motoring along but I honestly believe that's only because the provincial structure remains in place. I think it has outlived its usefulness but the general public seem to think otherwise.
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 21, 2013, 09:27:46 PM
Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. ;D
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
....
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.
"For the first All-Ireland championship in 1887, the competition was played on an open draw knockout basis".
Old traditions
Quote from: DJGaliv on June 25, 2013, 10:55:06 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 21, 2013, 09:27:46 PM
Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. ;D
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
....
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.
"For the first All-Ireland championship in 1887, the competition was played on an open draw knockout basis".
Old traditions
But how many Counties took part ? 10 or 12??
I suppose we all want different things as we've got different backgrounds and ideas of the GAA.
I would be delighted to see more big games for Tyrone in Croke park every year and think the back door has served us well the last 10 years.
However, many others from my county are fed up with the county team dictating how their club football is being ruined every year and would hate to see more games.
Loads of young lads in county panels can't wait to get away to America and away from the dreary Irish economy and lifestyle and so would be glad to see the back of the back door as well.
We're never going to get something to please all of us so I can't see much changing in the foreseeable future.
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2013, 11:16:26 AM
Quote from: DJGaliv on June 25, 2013, 10:55:06 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 21, 2013, 09:27:46 PM
Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. ;D
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
....
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.
"For the first All-Ireland championship in 1887, the competition was played on an open draw knockout basis".
Old traditions
But how many Counties took part ? 10 or 12??
It was the club champions who represented a county back then.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 21, 2013, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 21, 2013, 02:51:09 PM
Zulu, you've been fairly animated about this subject for years, fair play to you, but I have to say that I think your solution is only going to increase the number of meaningless games. I accept that linking it to league positions will make people take the league more seriously, but as soon as it settles down, you will be even further from achieving anything that anybody outside the dressing room cares about.
In your system, the only winners (unless I'm misreading this) will be the All Ireland Champions. No Westmeath, Laois, Roscommon, Leitrim, Clare, Cavan fairytales. Just endless jockeying for position in the middle of the pack for the right to move up one seeding place, but never really having anything tangilble for people to be nervous over, or celebrate wildly, which is a huge part of our games. People in Westmeath will never, ever forget 2004. They're not likely to see an All Ireland win, certainly in the near future, and therfore you are removing the only meaningful target that the people of Westmeath can aim for. I can't see a lorry in Mullingar for achieving a 2nd seed in the championship.
I think what is motivating you is really trying to ensure that the best teams contest the Sam Maguire, and I don't think increasing the amount of mediocre games which really and truly mean very little is going to point to that. I think your end game could be achieved by simply linking the counties to their league positions, and then running off a tiered championship. I wouldn't be in favour of this because it is removing the provincial championships (and the provincial championships are still dear to me anyway).
However, this is how I think something like that would work out.
League Tables 2013. -> All Ireland Series Draw.,
Division 1 teams & Division 2 Teams = Sam Maguire
Division 3 teams & Division 4 teams = Tommy Murphy or Intermediate or whatever.
4 groups of 4 in each.
Top 8 teams make 1/4 finals
If this was run in 2013, it would have panned out like this...
Sam Maguire Group A
Dublin (Div 1 First)
Cork (Div 1 Fifth)
Derry (DIv 2 First)
Galway (Div 2 Fifth)
Sam Maguire Group B
Tyrone (Div 1 Second)
Kerry (Div 1 Sixth)
Westmeath (Div 2 Second)
Armagh (Div 2 Sixth)
Sam Maguire Group C
Kildare (Div 1 Third)
Donegal (Div 1 Seventh)
Laois (Div 2 Third)
Wexford (Div 2 Seventh)
Sam Maguire Group D
Mayo (Div 1 Fourth)
Down (Div 1 Eighth)
Louth (Div 2 Fourth)
Longford (Div 2 Eighth)
Tommy Murphy Group A
Monaghan
Cavan
Limerick
Leitrim
Tommy Murphy Group B
Meath
Sligo
Offaly
Waterford
Tommy Murphy Group C
Roscommon
Antrim
Tipperary
Carlow
Tommy Murphy Group D
Fermanagh
Wicklow
Clare
London
Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. ;D
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
The Centenary was a genuine attempt to see if people were interested in an open draw, all Ireland competition. They weren't and the experiment was scrapped after two years. That was in 1984/85 and I don't think public opinion has changed much since then.
In the interim, the back door has been opened and the Tommy Murphy came along.
Poor Tommy lasted only four years and I don't recall any county objecting when that competition was scrapped.
The qualifier system is motoring along but I honestly believe that's only because the provincial structure remains in place. I think it has outlived its usefulness but the general public seem to think otherwise.
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.
Lar, the reason the centenary cup didn't persist was because it was a contrived competition, running in parallel with the All Ireland and Provincial Championships, which all the teams competed in as well. It wasn't REPLACING the All Ireland, it was yet another competition. Having said that I do remember the competition clearly, so it obviously made *some* impact on the consciousness.
I don't think a failed tertiary competitions 29 years ago is a reason to discount similar competitions today, particularly if they are replacing elements of our All Ireland, rather than competing with it.
Any new or reorganised system for the Senior IC Championship(s) will have to be part of an overall reform package of structures/competitions/calendars and enable Club Championships and Inter County to be progressed together during the high Summer months May to August inclusive.
Ideally every County should be sure of 3 or 4 Championship games 1 May - 31 July and then the best 8 or whatever play off from there.
Co Boards wouldn't be in a rush to "get the County out of the way till we start the Club"
with a proper pre set Inter County timetable Club championships were also at the Qtr final stage at 1st August.
Even if we never change from the present 2 tweaks badly needed are
1- tighten up the bloody Provincials
2- why do we need 7 weeks from Qtr Finals to AI Final. Play both Semis the same weekend, 1 Sat 1 Sun ( same with the sticks crowd) and you have 2 weekends free of TV games for Co Boards to run a load of Club fixtures.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 25, 2013, 01:31:19 PM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on June 21, 2013, 09:27:46 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 21, 2013, 02:51:09 PM
Zulu, you've been fairly animated about this subject for years, fair play to you, but I have to say that I think your solution is only going to increase the number of meaningless games. I accept that linking it to league positions will make people take the league more seriously, but as soon as it settles down, you will be even further from achieving anything that anybody outside the dressing room cares about.
In your system, the only winners (unless I'm misreading this) will be the All Ireland Champions. No Westmeath, Laois, Roscommon, Leitrim, Clare, Cavan fairytales. Just endless jockeying for position in the middle of the pack for the right to move up one seeding place, but never really having anything tangilble for people to be nervous over, or celebrate wildly, which is a huge part of our games. People in Westmeath will never, ever forget 2004. They're not likely to see an All Ireland win, certainly in the near future, and therfore you are removing the only meaningful target that the people of Westmeath can aim for. I can't see a lorry in Mullingar for achieving a 2nd seed in the championship.
I think what is motivating you is really trying to ensure that the best teams contest the Sam Maguire, and I don't think increasing the amount of mediocre games which really and truly mean very little is going to point to that. I think your end game could be achieved by simply linking the counties to their league positions, and then running off a tiered championship. I wouldn't be in favour of this because it is removing the provincial championships (and the provincial championships are still dear to me anyway).
However, this is how I think something like that would work out.
League Tables 2013. -> All Ireland Series Draw.,
Division 1 teams & Division 2 Teams = Sam Maguire
Division 3 teams & Division 4 teams = Tommy Murphy or Intermediate or whatever.
4 groups of 4 in each.
Top 8 teams make 1/4 finals
If this was run in 2013, it would have panned out like this...
Sam Maguire Group A
Dublin (Div 1 First)
Cork (Div 1 Fifth)
Derry (DIv 2 First)
Galway (Div 2 Fifth)
Sam Maguire Group B
Tyrone (Div 1 Second)
Kerry (Div 1 Sixth)
Westmeath (Div 2 Second)
Armagh (Div 2 Sixth)
Sam Maguire Group C
Kildare (Div 1 Third)
Donegal (Div 1 Seventh)
Laois (Div 2 Third)
Wexford (Div 2 Seventh)
Sam Maguire Group D
Mayo (Div 1 Fourth)
Down (Div 1 Eighth)
Louth (Div 2 Fourth)
Longford (Div 2 Eighth)
Tommy Murphy Group A
Monaghan
Cavan
Limerick
Leitrim
Tommy Murphy Group B
Meath
Sligo
Offaly
Waterford
Tommy Murphy Group C
Roscommon
Antrim
Tipperary
Carlow
Tommy Murphy Group D
Fermanagh
Wicklow
Clare
London
Az, a mhic, yer spending too much time in the bog; the sun does quare things to people. ;D
The Tommy Murphy is not coming back and the provincial system is going to remain as it is- for my lifetime anyway.
I'm not giving personal opinions here but just stating facts.
The Centenary was a genuine attempt to see if people were interested in an open draw, all Ireland competition. They weren't and the experiment was scrapped after two years. That was in 1984/85 and I don't think public opinion has changed much since then.
In the interim, the back door has been opened and the Tommy Murphy came along.
Poor Tommy lasted only four years and I don't recall any county objecting when that competition was scrapped.
The qualifier system is motoring along but I honestly believe that's only because the provincial structure remains in place. I think it has outlived its usefulness but the general public seem to think otherwise.
We're a conservative society where old traditions are hard to break.
Lar, the reason the centenary cup didn't persist was because it was a contrived competition, running in parallel with the All Ireland and Provincial Championships, which all the teams competed in as well. It wasn't REPLACING the All Ireland, it was yet another competition. Having said that I do remember the competition clearly, so it obviously made *some* impact on the consciousness.
I don't think a failed tertiary competitions 29 years ago is a reason to discount similar competitions today, particularly if they are replacing elements of our All Ireland, rather than competing with it.
I know the competition was staged to mark the GAA's centenary but that wasn't the sole reason. Remember it was run the following year as well.
In the years leading up 1984 there was much discussion and outright rows over the future of the association. For some, the fact that the GAA had survived the last hundred years and was now stronger and more popular than ever was proof positive that the fundamentals were sound and no change was needed.
Others argued that this was the right time to move the association out of the slow lane and to effect changes to reflect the changing social and economic times.
Much
rí rá agus ruaille buaille.The future of the provincial championships got a fair oul' kicking from Malin Head to Mizzen Head and around all parts of the country.
The approach of the centenary provided an opportunity to gauge public opinion and, while ostensibly the competition was run as part of the official commemorations, it main purpose was to see if an open draw All Ireland might be a feasible proposition someday. While nothing of the kind was being said officially, both the pro and anti sides knew the stakes were high.
In the first year, public interest was reasonably high but the novelty factor had to be considered so it was decided to have a re-run the following year. But public interest had waned and match attendance figures were well down on the previous year. Opposition to the scrapping of the provincial system was one of the main reasons for this; it was strongest in Cork and Kerry and on the hurling side, most, if not all, of the 'traditional' counties wouldn't hear of any changes in any way whatever.
I honestly think we'd have the same result if something similar was tried out at the present time.
We probably would Lar but such self serving idiocy serves us poorly. I'd love to hear from any defender of the current system how it best serves the association on all fronts.
Quote from: Zulu on June 25, 2013, 09:29:31 PM
We probably would Lar but such self serving idiocy serves us poorly. I'd love to hear from any defender of the current system how it best serves the association on all fronts.
I agree with you that the present system is outdated and badly in need of change but I can't see the provincial system being scrapped.
"Tradition" rears its ugly head whenever the mere idea is mentioned. This applies more to hurling than football.
Can you imagine the fuss that would be kicked up if any move was made to scrap the Munster final? Whatever slight chance there might be that the football format would be altered, there is absolutely none that the 'traditional' hurling counties would be willing to let go of their provincial finals and derby clashes.
That was the case in 1984/85 and I don't think attitudes have changed much since then.
What exactly is a 'meaningless' game in the context of the current system?
Those involving New York perhaps?
Apologises if this has been posted before, but apparently the GPA have produced proposals for discussion;
GPA head of communications Seán Potts confirmed the official players' body have sent a submission to the Football Review Committee (FRC), which will draft a motion on a possible structure change for next year's Congress.
However, he stressed there wasn't consensus on the idea and envisages the process of the GAA finding a viable alternative to the current structure to be more divisive than the debate surrounding the playing rule changes.
While none of the four models put forward proposed to retain the provincial competitions, feedback from the GPA membership indicate support for it to be kept in some shape or form.
One of the proposals was an out-and-out Champions League model, eight seeded groups of four based on league standings with each county playing three round-robin games.
The top two in each of the eight divisions would go into the knockout stages, with table-toppers in one group and runners-up in another.
The bottom 16 would enter the Tommy Murphy knockout competition and the recommendation would also see the end of the National League finals.
The GPA's committee, which featured Martin McHugh, Dick Clerkin and Ciarán Whelan, also put forward as an option a more club-friendly Champions League format, allowing club games to take place every second weekend.
"We've sent our findings to the FRC and it's obvious there is no easy answer," acknowledged Potts. "The findings are somewhat contradictory. There's no consensus within the playing body. Players want change, they're overwhelming in favour of that, because of the back door system, the lag between games and you see fellas going away for the summer, which isn't ideal. However, the aspirations of players was also reflected in their responses with some calling for the retention of the provincial structure in some form. It's a realistic goal in some counties, but how that would be done while making changes is the question."
The closest GPA proposal to the current provincial system is the Whelan-proposed Conference format, suggesting the four competitions be replaced by groups, with Wexford and London moving to the South (ie Munster) and Donegal, Longford and Westmeath to the West (Connacht).
They would be run over eight weeks in February and March, the top two counties in each qualifying for the four finals in April.
The top five counties (20 total) in each conference would then qualify for the All-Ireland championship group stages with the remaining 12 in the B championship.
In the A competition, the 20 sides would be divided into four groups of five, each of them getting four games, with the top team in each qualifying directly for the All-Ireland semi-finals with the second and third-placed teams drawn in the quarter-finals.
Potts says there was a lot of backing for the former Dublin midfielder's idea.
"Players want a longer sequence of games but they also need a series of meaningful games. There's a lot of support for Ciarán Whelan's idea of changing the National League into four conferences and then the make-up of the championship being dictated by league positions.
"It also reduces the distance travelled by teams in the spring and there's the possibility then of Wednesday and Friday night games."
The Summer League format splits the All-Ireland SFC into two groups of 16 (Division 1 and 2 teams in one group and 3 and 4 in the other) and replaces the National League with an open draw All-Ireland Cup competition.
The first group would be separated into two sub-divisions of eight with each team playing the other seven prior to the top four in each progressing to All-Ireland quarter-finals. The Division 3 and 4 competition would be run off similarly, with promotion and relegation between the two groups.
The FRC have already stated any proposal they are likely to put forward to Congress next year will be based on the current provincial system.
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 27, 2013, 01:04:33 PM
Apologises if this has been posted before, but apparently the GPA have produced proposals for discussion;
GPA head of communications Seán Potts confirmed the official players’ body have sent a submission to the Football Review Committee (FRC), which will draft a motion on a possible structure change for next year’s Congress.
However, he stressed there wasn’t consensus on the idea and envisages the process of the GAA finding a viable alternative to the current structure to be more divisive than the debate surrounding the playing rule changes.
While none of the four models put forward proposed to retain the provincial competitions, feedback from the GPA membership indicate support for it to be kept in some shape or form.
One of the proposals was an out-and-out Champions League model, eight seeded groups of four based on league standings with each county playing three round-robin games.
The top two in each of the eight divisions would go into the knockout stages, with table-toppers in one group and runners-up in another.
The bottom 16 would enter the Tommy Murphy knockout competition and the recommendation would also see the end of the National League finals.
The GPA’s committee, which featured Martin McHugh, Dick Clerkin and Ciarán Whelan, also put forward as an option a more club-friendly Champions League format, allowing club games to take place every second weekend.
“We’ve sent our findings to the FRC and it’s obvious there is no easy answer,” acknowledged Potts. “The findings are somewhat contradictory. There’s no consensus within the playing body. Players want change, they’re overwhelming in favour of that, because of the back door system, the lag between games and you see fellas going away for the summer, which isn’t ideal. However, the aspirations of players was also reflected in their responses with some calling for the retention of the provincial structure in some form. It’s a realistic goal in some counties, but how that would be done while making changes is the question.”
The closest GPA proposal to the current provincial system is the Whelan-proposed Conference format, suggesting the four competitions be replaced by groups, with Wexford and London moving to the South (ie Munster) and Donegal, Longford and Westmeath to the West (Connacht).
They would be run over eight weeks in February and March, the top two counties in each qualifying for the four finals in April.
The top five counties (20 total) in each conference would then qualify for the All-Ireland championship group stages with the remaining 12 in the B championship.
In the A competition, the 20 sides would be divided into four groups of five, each of them getting four games, with the top team in each qualifying directly for the All-Ireland semi-finals with the second and third-placed teams drawn in the quarter-finals.
Potts says there was a lot of backing for the former Dublin midfielder’s idea.
“Players want a longer sequence of games but they also need a series of meaningful games. There’s a lot of support for Ciarán Whelan’s idea of changing the National League into four conferences and then the make-up of the championship being dictated by league positions.
“It also reduces the distance travelled by teams in the spring and there’s the possibility then of Wednesday and Friday night games.”
The Summer League format splits the All-Ireland SFC into two groups of 16 (Division 1 and 2 teams in one group and 3 and 4 in the other) and replaces the National League with an open draw All-Ireland Cup competition.
The first group would be separated into two sub-divisions of eight with each team playing the other seven prior to the top four in each progressing to All-Ireland quarter-finals. The Division 3 and 4 competition would be run off similarly, with promotion and relegation between the two groups.
The FRC have already stated any proposal they are likely to put forward to Congress next year will be based on the current provincial system.
The bit in bold. Now usually with all these revamp ideas you'd almost need a pen and paper to keep up but am I missing something!? 4 winners of each group go to semi's and 2nd and 3rd go to quarters? Is this quarters of B competition?
I can't warm to the idea of 4 Regional Leagues with teams of all standards thrown in. At least with the present Divs 1 to 4 there is competitiveness between teams of similar standards and exciting finishes.
With 5 going to an A Competition you would have an awful lot of issues sorted out long before Round 7.
The proposed "Southern division" would see some awful trimmings and you could nearly name the B Qualifier teams before a ball was kicked.
Also a sh1te team from a weaker Region could make the "A" Championship while stronger teams from another Region would end up in the "B" Championship.
Also who'd be bothered with a B championship if winning it meant you wouldn't automatically got to the "A" one?
Personally I think the Provincial Championships have to stay and why not?
You can still have them ( even as stand alones with no bearing on any new AI series) plus an early season NFL AND an All Ireland Championship(s) with space for Club championships to run concurrently during the "High" summer months.
Quote from: BennyHarp on June 27, 2013, 01:04:33 PM
One of the proposals was an out-and-out Champions League model, eight seeded groups of four based on league standings with each county playing three round-robin games.
The top two in each of the eight divisions would go into the knockout stages, with table-toppers in one group and runners-up in another.
The bottom 16 would enter the and the recommendation would also see the end of the National League finals.
Don't know why Gaelic football has to copy soccer? the Champions league is only set up that way to make money and it's the knock out stages before it gets interesting. At least the National league brings more interest than Tommy Murphy knockout competition ever will.
The back door has only had one team make the semi finals in the last 16 attempts. Why all those games over the last 4 years just to have one team make a semi final. Is it time to say goodbye to the back door?
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 09, 2014, 07:27:52 PM
The back door has only had one team make the semi finals in the last 16 attempts. Why all those games over the last 4 years just to have one team make a semi final. Is it time to say goodbye to the back door?
No.
Convenient tailoring there too, Bunker - both AI finalists in 2010 were qualifiers.
Quote from: Syferus on August 09, 2014, 07:31:56 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 09, 2014, 07:27:52 PM
The back door has only had one team make the semi finals in the last 16 attempts. Why all those games over the last 4 years just to have one team make a semi final. Is it time to say goodbye to the back door?
No.
Convenient tailoring there too, Bunker - both AI finalists in 2010 were qualifiers.
Oh I know that. I ask this question every year at this stage of the competition. There just seems to be no real competitor coming from the back door for the last couple of years. In the old days, Sligo, Fermanagh, Westmeath would give it a bash. That romance seems to be dead?
There seems to be no serious competitor coming from anywhere to match the Colossus. :-\
Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2014, 11:23:27 PM
There seems to be no serious competitor coming from anywhere to match the Colossus. :-\
And both semi finals will feature the same counties in both minor and senior. I wonder when the last time that happened?
96 games played in the Back Door over four years and only one County to beat a front door county in the Quarter Finals. Is it time to go back to straight knock out? This is just a waste of time and money!
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 10, 2014, 12:16:38 AM
96 games played in the Back Door over four years and only one County to beat a front door county in the Quarter Finals. Is it time to go back to straight knock out? This is just a waste of time and money!
That would be 1 out of 16 though, rather than 1 out of 96?
Quote from: muppet on August 10, 2014, 12:18:23 AM
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 10, 2014, 12:16:38 AM
96 games played in the Back Door over four years and only one County to beat a front door county in the Quarter Finals. Is it time to go back to straight knock out? This is just a waste of time and money!
That would be 1 out of 16 though, rather than 1 out of 96?
Yeah said that earlier. My point is that all these games are losing their value. You can see certain counties that don't care about the back door anymore. I am even finding I'm taking less heed of these games than i used to take. Are they just delaying the inevitable and destroying club football?
Quote from: From the Bunker on August 10, 2014, 12:16:38 AM
96 games played in the Back Door over four years and only one County to beat a front door county in the Quarter Finals. Is it time to go back to straight knock out? This is just a waste of time and money!
No Quarter Finals = 115,000 at average €20 ( kids/long term tickets taken into account) loses 2,300,000.
I'm sure the other 24 games would have generated €1.25m??
It could definitely do with some tweaking.
Format is getting quite stale.
The national leagues need to be trimmed down for less games - more divisions with less teams in each.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 10, 2014, 12:26:50 PM
It could definitely do with some tweaking.
Format is getting quite stale.
The national leagues need to be trimmed down for less games - more divisions with less teams in each.
A division of 8 is pretty small as it is. I'd eliminate the finals and whatnot and have 3 divisions.
Quote from: armaghniac on August 10, 2014, 01:09:12 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on August 10, 2014, 12:26:50 PM
It could definitely do with some tweaking.
Format is getting quite stale.
The national leagues need to be trimmed down for less games - more divisions with less teams in each.
A division of 8 is pretty small as it is. I'd eliminate the finals and whatnot and have 3 divisions.
That'd make for a truly hopeless situation for D4 teams. They need league games against their equals more than anyone and they wouldn't get a half-decent shot at promotion that in that system. D4 and D3 as normal and a randomly mixed 1A/1B seems like the best way to give teams on the bubble the time against the best teams that they need to develop while ensuring the lower ranked teams are still getting a good chance at progression.
Makes the league semis very viable too.