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GAA Discussion => GAA Discussion => Topic started by: caprea on October 24, 2017, 08:15:01 PM

Title: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 24, 2017, 08:15:01 PM
wrote up something for my blog at https://wordpress.com/post/veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/74
 
Feedback, criticism welcome...
 
The purpose of this blog is to take stock of where the GAA has come from, where it is and where it is going and the reasons for each. Ultimately I see GAA as becoming more and more like every other sport that is professional. It is really a companion piece to a blog i have done previously: https://veryintobloggingveryintonewmedia.wordpress.com/2017/02/23/gaelic-football-identifying-addressing-the-real-problems .
What I see the GAA have presently is a product that is high-end entertainment at the elite of the elite level. At this level the sport is gaining appeal. The flip side is that where once the sport was appealing to a wider spread of counties now it is badly losing that appeal. The feeling of hope they once had of been able to upset the odds against more fancied teams has long since given way to an acceptance that they are there to make up the numbers. How the GAA should deal with this polarization of the intercounty food-chain and how they actually will is the interesting thing.
 
There has to be a realization from the GAA that the current state of play is unsustainable. Counties left in Dublin's wake will lose interest and this will eat into the GAA's bottom line as attendances drop. Even Dublin's fans will disappear until the semi final stage. Mayo are saving the GAA a lot of tougher questions right now by providing fantastic spectacles in all their games but particularly in their battles with the Dubs. But how long can they keep it going? Personally i would say Mayo might have one more year in them and that's dependent on been lucky with injuries which they have been incredibly lucky with ever since Andy Moran done his cruciate in the quarter final in 2012. Ideally the GAA need Mayo to finally lay the '51 curse to bed next year.
 
Anyone who honestly believes that 5 or 6 counties will catch up Dublin over the next 5 years and restore the normal order of what we expect is ..whatever the name for the exact opposite of a doom merchant. There is talk that funds need to be redistributed from Dublin to the other struggling counties to help them catchup and this is worthy of discussion and appraisal. In truth this talk is likely to be extremely fanciful. Increased development grants will help weaker counties but it's definitely not a quick fix.
 
Firstly I think what it will in effect mean is that the paid GAA coaches and development officers that are based currently in Dublin will have to be laid off and replaced by new coaches if the ones based in Dublin aren't willing to relocate. Then coaching structures have to be put in place with a lot of inexperienced newbie coaches. Then you got to hope the players are out there that can match what's coming out of Dublin. This would need to be seriously organized by an extremely smart national co-ordinator. And if the plan is a success it will take at least 5 years after the decision is taken for the fruit to ripen at intercounty level.
But will the hunger be there to weaken the brilliant structures Dublin have built? I don't think so. It would be a decision that would hurt the GAA hard. To build those structures that they have seen to be a runaway success and then tear them down. I think that will hurt the GAA a little too much. There's no halfway house as I see it given the advantages Dublin have, they have to be weakened or they will never be caught up by the pack.
So then if strengthening counties incrementally while weakening Dublin incrementally is difficult to implement what about weakening Dublin dramatically but not weakening their coaching structures? What about splitting Dublin?
 
The evolution of the argument of splitting Dublin has been satisfying for me to watch. Since about 2013 I argued a split was inevitable and had to take the brickbats that such a non-traditional view attracted. Now the merits of a split is been argued on the Sunday Game, Off the ball and in the papers. The counter arguments of Kerry and Kilkenny's dominance not causing pressure for them to split still prevail but that argument is watery. Even if I was still in favour of a split (which I am not) then it would still be too early. We need to see a notable drop in attendances and continued Dublin domination before a split could be considered. The arguments for the split have come from Colm o'Rourke and Ewan McKenna. I think Ewan's arguments have more merit but i wouldn't say that either are taking a long term view. O'Rourke's view basically is Dublin should be split because not enough Dubliners get the chance to play county football. Whether that is the actual reason I would be cynical about. In any case I don't think the GAA should be weakening its most box office team just so more lads get the chance to pull on a Dublin jersey. Intercounty is the elite competition and the aim should be the highest competitive level of competition. If we cannot have teams matching Dublin then yes I would say they should be split. I think we can have teams matching Dublin but it will take radical but not impossible steps.
 
The only way I see teams been able to compete with Dublin was outlined in the previously mentioned blog where I put out a radical proposal of amalgamating counties and professionalism. You heard it hear first is all I can say but I actually do believe its the best and most sustainable model but unlikely to be popular but that may change. There are plenty of good arguments against my proposal I accept. I am not oblivious to my proposal going against the ethos of the GAA. I guess my counter argument is that this is just how elite sport works in every country on earth apart from Ireland.
 
Honestly I believe competition with Dublin within the existing intercounty system is a lost cause. Ciaran Murphy of SecondCaptains recently published an article (https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/ciarŠn-murphy-you-do-not-level-the-playing-field-by-weakening-dublin-1.3228038) where he made the similar refrain of this system has been ok from the 1890's to the 1990's so why expect it to stop working now.
 
I think this argument really serves no purpose anymore and is a throwback to when GAA was truly amateur and could be considered largely a parochial sport. With the introduction of sports science in every intercounty squad, underage development squads, drug testing, warm weather training camps and massive backroom staffs one needs to consider GAA the way one would consider any professional sport. I will try to offer an example to illustrate this in a way I can be confident you haven't heard before.
 
Dublin is a city of about 1.4 million people and is competing with counties of around 100k - 200k people. Dublin as a city is on a very different level to the likes of Cork and Galway. Dublin has a population close to level with Milan and Munich and within sight of Barcelona. Milan, Munich and Barcelona have produced teams that have consistently dominated world soccer. I know of course those three cities can buy the best players from other teams so your first reaction would be; what is the point of a comparison with a team like Dublin that can't buy players? But my point is more about the market/fan base available to Barca, Milan, Munich and Dublin GAA within their own cities. This is the ultimate reason why those cities have the biggest football clubs in the world. The reason that great football clubs grew in those cities ultimately is because of the size of the city themselves. Dublin is in that same bracket and having a long term expectation of counties of 150k to 200k to compete with Dublin is not that different from expecting FC Brugge or FC Basle to compete with the biggest fish.
 
Another key event in the emergence of Dublin has been Croke Park. If you are expecting me to say that Dublin getting to play all their meaningful games at home is a key advantage; well yes it is but that is too obvious to discuss in an interesting way.
 
What I mean about Croke park is that it gave GAA and Dublin a theatre of dreams. A stage which offered a unique attraction like no other in Ireland. The redeveloped Croke Park ensured GAA was always going to be the biggest show in town as the appeal of playing out our tribal rivalries in such an amphitheater was such a draw. Of course Croke Park grew the sport in every county but Dublin were the most to benefit as they had the most untapped potential growth.
My own county, Kildare, has an apology of a stadium called St Conleth's Park in Newbridge. I wonder what would have been achieved since if during the boom years the Kildare county board would have had the foresight and financial resources to clinch a deal to sell their decrepit town centre stadium and move to a green field site outside the town with a modernly equipped 20k capacity. The Irish for a reason I can probably have a guess at have very little appreciation of the attractions of new modern Irish stadia until they are built. When Dublin were developing their plan for a new stadium at the Spawell with 25k capacity, the wise men of GAA Internet forums had their say. They wondered why Dublin would build a stadium that big since Parnell Park canít attract 5,000 for a Dublin county final. The idea that the stadium itself was a big part of the attraction of attending never seems to occur to a lot of people in this country. Likewise many gaels were calling the new Pairc Ui Caoimh a ďwhite elephantĒ during the redevelopment. It annoys me that so many in Ireland view GAA Stadia as there only to give you an acceptable view of the game and beyond that modern facilities are not important.
 
As you should now be able to appreciate Iím very non-traditional in my outlook on the future of GAA. I believe we are the slow road to a bigger elitism and inevitable professionalism. The GAA press corp led by Joe Brolly treat words like elitism like a dirty word. They are entitled to do that and readers are entitled to read and like it. I would just add the proviso that Joe Brolly has very rarely been correct about the predictions he makes in regards to the association. I have gone as far before in saying that Joe Brollyís articles tell you nothing worthwhile knowing about the state of the elite intercounty game and I see nothing since to convince me otherwise.
 
I have very little respect for any of the GAA writers that have been in the firmament in the past 10 years. Only one (Ewan Mackenna) has consistently addressed the issue that pumping GAA resources/Government resources into one county that already was in the most advantageous position could only have one logical conclusion; Domination. If the press had made more noise about the imbalance in the funds going to Dublin in the late noughties; public pressure could have been applied to reverse decisions been taken that would completely alter the GAA landscape and force apathy on a large number of supporters in counties left to make up the numbers. It is not possible to know if the funding been cut to a normal level would have slowed down the runaway rate of Dublin progress. Perhaps Dublin would have been able to produce a level of success to dominate in any case with the existing advantages they had. But the GAA media largely acted like a spooked ostrich, put itís collective head in the sand and made Dublinís Domination a fait compli.
 
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: thewobbler on October 24, 2017, 08:35:06 PM
Even if you shaved 1000 words off that I still wouldnít have time to read it.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Declan on October 25, 2017, 09:28:58 AM
Quote
Only one (Ewan Mackenna) has consistently addressed the issue that pumping GAA resources/Government resources into one county that already was in the most advantageous position could only have one logical conclusion; Domination.

Welcome back Ewan ;)
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 01:21:30 PM
so the solution is to weaken Dublin to create a "level playing field"


what a load of absolute horse shite.

get club volunteers nationally to do what those in dublin do and ignore the smokescreen of GPOs.

juvenile coaching in dublin is by and large parent led albeit well guided by keen and sharp club structures. but its not black arts, its not rocket science and its not hard to replicate. Its  also in many clubs driven by country men and women.......i know of a man from my club who is chairman of a Dublin juvenile club and i will venture gives more time  to that club weekly than a county chairman of most D2 and downward counties. His level of contribution would be the norm in Dublin also for any forward thinking adminstrator

In Roscommon St Brigids would be operating at underage level to the standards of the leading Dublin clubs, albeit not dual code unlike almost every Dublin club
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: AZOffaly on October 25, 2017, 01:26:24 PM
so the solution is to weaken Dublin to create a "level playing field"


what a load of absolute horse shite.

get club volunteers nationally to do what those in dublin do and ignore the smokescreen of GPOs.

juvenile coaching in dublin is by and large parent led albeit well guided by keen and sharp club structures. but its not black arts, its not rocket science and its not hard to replicate. Its  also in many clubs driven by country men and women.......i know of a man from my club who is chairman of a Dublin juvenile club and i will venture gives more time  to that club weekly than a county chairman of most D2 and downward counties. His level of contribution would be the norm in Dublin also for any forward thinking adminstrator

In Roscommon St Brigids would be operating at underage level to the standards of the leading Dublin clubs, albeit not dual code unlike almost every Dublin club

See that f**king annoys me. what do they do that we don't do?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 02:06:42 PM
i'm not in Dublin but the point remains that Juvenile clubs are run by volunteers not by paid coaches so start asking and finding out whats done differently / better etc.

i will give you a starting point though.

football and hurling games at every age from u8 to u12 as part of go games structure played on alternative weeks feb through to November skipping july and august, giving most kids of 8 year of age the chance to play up to 16 weekends of each code per year.

clubs tying iwth with local schools and encouraging teachers to take teams in cumann na mbunscoil competitions and provide additional training outside of the club.
Most clubs in dublin would have 2 hrs coaching a week for u8s and then 90 minutes matches every saturday. How many counties are this structured.

and AZ i'm no aplogist for Dublin county board, they have actually failed the GAA badly in leaving huge urban spreads to the greasy paws of soccer unchallenged and also failed to halt the growth of superclubs and not creating new clubs in the sprawling housing estates of the last 20 years........

Dublin also benefits hugely from the country man and woman loving their native game and being the mainstays of most juvenile clubs. The reverse trip down the country for dubs is rarely as fruitful for the local GAA club
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: AZOffaly on October 25, 2017, 02:11:02 PM
Right so. If all the coaching money and GDAs are doing f**k all to help in Dublin, then give it back. Let everyone else have the same amount that can go into schools every week, or help coaches in clubs define best practice etc.

This narrative that the money makes no difference, or the coaching setup makes no difference is absolutely mental.

If it truly makes no difference, then it's the most scandalous waste of umpteen millions since the eVoting machines.

I'm not saying the heart of the GAA is not the volunteer up in Dublin, just the way it is in other counties. Of course it is. But this notion that they are simply a better class of volunteer is very galling.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2017, 02:22:22 PM
There are likely more Juveniles in one big club in Dublin than in the 12/15 northernmost clubs in Ros put together.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 02:26:26 PM
rossfan

and that indeed is the biggest problem out there and the demographics of the country will continue to exacerbate the problem with meath and kildare strengthening over the years to come also if they do the prep work.

I suppose the rest of us have to look at Slaughtneil as inspiration
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: AZOffaly on October 25, 2017, 02:28:44 PM
That's always been the case though lads, population wise. Something has changed in the last 10-15 years.

I've said before, I don't blame Dublin for it. I applaud them for doing it so well. But I absolutely blame the GAA for not trying to give the same support to other counties who need it.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 25, 2017, 02:36:48 PM
..or we look at logic and recut the pie, financially and population-wise. When the government thinks the Dublin metro area is so big it needs four separate entities to run properly itís a joke that some still try to say it makes any sense in the GAA to have just one. Dublin is not a county.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 02:59:45 PM
Right so. If all the coaching money and GDAs are doing f**k all to help in Dublin, then give it back. Let everyone else have the same amount that can go into schools every week, or help coaches in clubs define best practice etc.

This narrative that the money makes no difference, or the coaching setup makes no difference is absolutely mental.

If it truly makes no difference, then it's the most scandalous waste of umpteen millions since the eVoting machines.

I'm not saying the heart of the GAA is not the volunteer up in Dublin, just the way it is in other counties. Of course it is. But this notion that they are simply a better class of volunteer is very galling.

they are volunteers working with better structures and also as a result of intercounty successes are perhaps more motivated. Its an opt out to say that the GPOs are the main difference but i would think centrally the GAA should pay nationally for all GPOs  their full income on a per head of population basis.
 The DCB pays half the GPO wages ( and local clubs ie volunteers pay the rest) . Allowances to be made for extras where population is sparce and time would be spent travelling........ a GPO per 10 NS in rural ireland not necessarily tied to any one club would be start.

I'm envious of how dublin underage is run but not jealous and feel neither my current club nor my native county are treating or developing juveniles as good as any of the top 20 clubs in Dublin do......
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 03:01:06 PM
That's always been the case though lads, population wise. Something has changed in the last 10-15 years.

I've said before, I don't blame Dublin for it. I applaud them for doing it so well. But I absolutely blame the GAA for not trying to give the same support to other counties who need it.

I agree with you totally here GAA centrally have abdicated development and player recruitment / retention responsibilites while building provincial centres of excellence and other bolloxology
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: rrhf on October 25, 2017, 03:20:06 PM
The next director general could be the most important figure in the history of the GAA.
He may well preside over the following decisions and junction points.
Professional county level set ups.
More structured separation of the playing pool between club and county. 
Mitigating the natural loss of many volunteers and many paying patrons through the advent of the professional era.
Rules of the games and their officiating. 
Equality in the resourcing of teams, be that county, split county or identify new regional teams of 2- 3 counties put together, that cant be sustained otherwise, Ie Meath and Westmeath could be called The Westmeath Royals. :)   
Centralising and alocating intercounty finances including income streams from sponsership and spends.
The city models: Dublin, Belfast, Derry, Cork Large numbers - v different problems. 
Infrastructure and spending controls and plans for counties many who seem to be fond of white elephants, and if the GAA dosent split - clubs.   
Dealing with the GAA black economy properly.
Player and member welfare and a statute of equality among members. 
Economising the association by dealing with those on the organisation money gravy train and ensuring value for money from everyone who is paid and cutting the fat off the lamb where needed.   
Transparency and compliance particulalry in finance, Governance, h and s, child protection. 
Dealing with the structures of the leagues and championships to enable growth.
Dealing with the prospect of a new hard border  and its effect. 
Rounders  ;)
or it could be someone who lets these issues roll on and on. 
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: trileacman on October 25, 2017, 03:23:55 PM
Splitting Dublin is an inevitability.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 25, 2017, 03:24:19 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: AZOffaly on October 25, 2017, 03:38:28 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Owen Brannigan on October 25, 2017, 03:41:41 PM
Any attempt to restructure the GAA beyond existing county boundaries would have to restructure the provincial setups, this will never happen and so the status quo will remain for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2017, 03:45:03 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.
Laois/Offaly has a nice ring to it and of course would represent all 150k who live there.
Sure ye're all the same there anyway.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: AZOffaly on October 25, 2017, 03:57:58 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.
Laois/Offaly has a nice ring to it and of course would represent all 150k who live there.
Sure ye're all the same there anyway.

That is the most horrible thing anyone has ever said to me.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 25, 2017, 04:14:06 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.

If you went to school in Ballagh you might have a different idea of how fluid borders really are, and the problems they engender. Thereís room for a county-based competition, particularly provincially, but when it comes to Sam there needs to be a reasonable expectation that teams are on an even footing. Ghettoising counties into tiers, like Zulu promotes, is not an answer in any way, shape or form.

You can be sure our grandkids wonít be worrying about a Ballagh lad and a Castlerea buck playing together if theyíre watching their team win an AI.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: AZOffaly on October 25, 2017, 04:19:52 PM
They f**king will if it's a Moate lad and a Ferbane lad!
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 25, 2017, 04:26:00 PM
Sorry what was my plan Syferus? I know you have difficulty understanding even simple concepts but I haven't promoted a tiered system. As for 'ghettoising' counties, well unfortunately that type of daftness seems to be level of your discourse.

So your solution is to split Dublin and Cork and amalgamate smaller counties? Right, outside of it being totally unrealistic and something hardly any GAA person would support, it solves nothing. As AZ said, people support their own county and few people would readily support amalgamations. What about big counties like Tipperary or Limerick that are unsuccessful? Can they join together or if they become successful will they be split?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 04:26:06 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.

If you went to school in Ballagh you might have a different idea of how fluid borders really are, and the problems they engender. Thereís room for a county-based competition, particularly provincially, but when it comes to Sam there needs to be a reasonable expectation that teams are on an even footing. Ghettoising counties into tiers, like Zulu promotes, is not an answer in any way, shape or form.

You can be sure our grandkids wonít be worrying about a Ballagh lad and a Castlerea buck playing together if theyíre watching their team win an AI.

not an answer in any shape or form yet the club structure nationally is based on it.......
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: tonto1888 on October 25, 2017, 04:36:39 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.

If you went to school in Ballagh you might have a different idea of how fluid borders really are, and the problems they engender. Thereís room for a county-based competition, particularly provincially, but when it comes to Sam there needs to be a reasonable expectation that teams are on an even footing. Ghettoising counties into tiers, like Zulu promotes, is not an answer in any way, shape or form.

You can be sure our grandkids wonít be worrying about a Ballagh lad and a Castlerea buck playing together if theyíre watching their team win an AI.

when have teams ever been a reasonable expectation that teams have been on an equal footing?
Take Armagh for example. Barring a freak few years 1999-2006, when have we ever been of an equal footing with all the others? What about Fermanagh? Antrim?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 25, 2017, 04:42:20 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.

If you went to school in Ballagh you might have a different idea of how fluid borders really are, and the problems they engender. Thereís room for a county-based competition, particularly provincially, but when it comes to Sam there needs to be a reasonable expectation that teams are on an even footing. Ghettoising counties into tiers, like Zulu promotes, is not an answer in any way, shape or form.

You can be sure our grandkids wonít be worrying about a Ballagh lad and a Castlerea buck playing together if theyíre watching their team win an AI.

when have teams ever been a reasonable expectation that teams have been on an equal footing?
Take Armagh for example. Barring a freak few years 1999-2006, when have we ever been of an equal footing with all the others? What about Fermanagh? Antrim?

That's like saying a child in Africa doesn't need clean water because they haven't had it in the past. What does what has happened previously have to do with what's needed to make the game fairer and a genuine competition rather than a race to see who's runner-up to a team with a population exceeding most provinces?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 04:48:27 PM
and it should be noted Syferus  Dublin still with only 93 gaa clubs and huge areas not remotely involved in GAA.

soccer is king in that horriblly inaccurate term "working class" dublin and there are more non nationals in dublin than anywhere else.


now i sit back and wait for terms like financial doping to be thrown about
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: tonto1888 on October 25, 2017, 04:49:32 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.

If you went to school in Ballagh you might have a different idea of how fluid borders really are, and the problems they engender. Thereís room for a county-based competition, particularly provincially, but when it comes to Sam there needs to be a reasonable expectation that teams are on an even footing. Ghettoising counties into tiers, like Zulu promotes, is not an answer in any way, shape or form.

You can be sure our grandkids wonít be worrying about a Ballagh lad and a Castlerea buck playing together if theyíre watching their team win an AI.

when have teams ever been a reasonable expectation that teams have been on an equal footing?
Take Armagh for example. Barring a freak few years 1999-2006, when have we ever been of an equal footing with all the others? What about Fermanagh? Antrim?

That's like saying a child in Africa doesn't need clean water because they haven't had it in the past. What does what has happened previously have to do with what's needed to make the game fairer and a genuine competition rather than a race to see who's runner-up to a team with a population exceeding most provinces?

I have misunderstood you but that's still a really daft analogy.
So if we are only talking about going forward from here on in and leaving the past out of it. How can Armagh or Fermanagh or Antrim, or Roscommon even. What is going to give those four counties, and others like them, a reasonable expectation of being on an equal footing.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: armaghniac on October 25, 2017, 04:55:14 PM
and it should be noted Syferus  Dublin still with only 93 gaa clubs and huge areas not remotely involved in GAA.

That's in part because some of these clubs are enormous and should be split too.

Quote
soccer is king in that horriblly inaccurate term "working class" dublin and there are more non nationals in dublin than anywhere else.

Further promotion of the GAA should take place in these areas, but if this is successful it should not be allowed distort national competitions further. 
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 25, 2017, 04:56:40 PM
Did you not hear tonto1888, you join them together and hey presto problem solved. I don't have the time to dismantle this daft idea but a 5 minute consideration would result in anyone realising it totally unrealistic and unmanageable.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: tonto1888 on October 25, 2017, 05:00:21 PM
Did you not hear tonto1888, you join them together and hey presto problem solved. I don't have the time to dismantle this daft idea but a 5 minute consideration would result in anyone realising it totally unrealistic and unmanageable.

silly me, how did I not see that was the obvious thing to do
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 25, 2017, 07:03:08 PM
so the solution is to weaken Dublin to create a "level playing field"


what a load of absolute horse shite.



Where did I say that? I said the exact opposite  ???
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 07:20:13 PM
so the solution is to weaken Dublin to create a "level playing field"


what a load of absolute horse shite.



Where did I say that? I said the exact opposite  ???

Cursory glancing over your very wordy piece included a piece on relocating gpos  or sacking them.......

Was the purpose of that not to weaken Dublin??
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 25, 2017, 07:32:03 PM
so the solution is to weaken Dublin to create a "level playing field"


what a load of absolute horse shite.




Where did I say that? I said the exact opposite  ???

Cursory glancing over your very wordy piece invduded a piece on relocating gpos  or sacking them.......

Was tgebpurposd of that jnot to weaken Dublin??

No, I never said thatís what I wanted to see. I proposed something to strengthen the rest not weaken Dublin.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 07:33:38 PM
But why not then employ  more rathrr than redeploy  existing  relatively lowly paid personnel........
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: LooseCannon on October 25, 2017, 07:38:56 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.
Laois/Offaly has a nice ring to it and of course would represent all 150k who live there.
Sure ye're all the same there anyway.

Could put Roscommon with Galway as sheepsh*ggers Utd.  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 25, 2017, 07:40:45 PM
But why not then employ  more rathrr than redeploy  existing  relatively lowly paid personnel........

Iím not going to argue a point Iím not making.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2017, 07:45:42 PM
So we can't weaken Dublin
We can't split Dublin
We can't amalgamate the weaker football Counties
We can't have graded IC football championships
Crowds are declining because  most Counties aren't and can't be competitive at any serious level
Ah well........
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 25, 2017, 07:50:29 PM
So we can't weaken Dublin
We can't split Dublin
We can't amalgamate the weaker football Counties
We can't have graded IC football championships
Crowds are declining because  most Counties aren't and can't be competitive at any serious level
Ah well........

Or we can do any one of those things. We just have to make sure we pick the right one.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: OgraAnDun on October 25, 2017, 08:10:12 PM
Dublin should be split, and regional teams should be created. They go hand in hand.

What do you mean by regional teams? You think we should split Dublin, and then create teams like the Westmeath/Offaly/Roscommon Shannonsiders or something?

If they do that, they can forget about my euros. The only reason I go to games is because the players represent me or my place.

+1

I'll be going to no Border Terriers (Down/Armagh/Louth) matches.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 25, 2017, 08:34:37 PM
People say they would lose interest if the counties became regions.

The same people might support Liverpool and hate Everton despite not having any connection to Liverpool.

People support sports teams to break the tedium and have excitement and something to enjoy. The actual team they follow is secondary.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: tonto1888 on October 25, 2017, 08:50:30 PM
So we can't weaken Dublin
We can't split Dublin
We can't amalgamate the weaker football Counties
We can't have graded IC football championships
Crowds are declining because  most Counties aren't and can't be competitive at any serious level
Ah well........

Graded IC championships isn't the worst idea I think
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 25, 2017, 08:51:11 PM
People say they would lose interest if the counties became regions.

The same people might support Liverpool and hate Everton despite not having any connection to Liverpool.

People support sports teams to break the tedium and have excitement and something to enjoy. The actual team they follow is secondary.
Not a good example, soccer support is a hobby or to fill the void until the GAA season starts up. Anyone that gets too hot and bothered about a English team they have no connections with needs to have a good look at themselves.

Support of a GAA team is very different and a lot of the weaker counties don't get much to be excitement about while following their team yet they would prefer that to some region team...
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2017, 08:57:35 PM
An awful lot of Irish people get excited and nearly foaming at the mouth over a maky uppy rubby team from 4 Countries playing friendlies against village teams in New Zealand or Australia.
How many people were supporting Imokilly, a regional team in the Cork hurling Final? Or South Kerry?

Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: thewobbler on October 25, 2017, 09:03:36 PM
For al Dublinís advantaged, they canít play more than 15 players and canít ďbuyĒ in players for positions.

Their time will come to an end. When the last one-team era like this in football ended, it gave way to the most exciting 15 years in the sportís history. Thatís when crowds peaked.

Itís all cycles.

And Dublinís cycle is coming to an end. They, once again, needed Flynn, Brogan, Connolly to win the title. Theyíll produce good players forever, but theyíll not have 3 like that again for 20 years at least.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: rrhf on October 25, 2017, 09:09:30 PM
They will be in every final for the next 10 years and will bunk their own propagated myth that they are simply a good one off Dublin team, as they will be on their 3rd midfielder and full back and full forward from when they started cleaning up.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: thewobbler on October 25, 2017, 10:16:17 PM
They will be in every final for the next 10 years and will bunk their own propagated myth that they are simply a good one off Dublin team, as they will be on their 3rd midfielder and full back and full forward from when they started cleaning up.

How is it a propagated myth?

10 of the 19 men who played for them in the 2011 final, played in the 2017 final.

No doubt theyíve brought in new blood from then, but Iíd guess the only county in Ireland that has a similar footprint between those 6 years is Mayo.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 25, 2017, 10:28:45 PM
People say they would lose interest if the counties became regions.

The same people might support Liverpool and hate Everton despite not having any connection to Liverpool.

People support sports teams to break the tedium and have excitement and something to enjoy. The actual team they follow is secondary.

But they are all foreign teams. We can pick our soccer teams and even change them if we want (I'm sure there's a few 40 year old ex-Blackburn rovers fans floating about Ireland). I don't see anyway regional teams would be well supported and some of them would still be average teams so they certainly wouldn't get much support.

Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 25, 2017, 10:34:43 PM
People say they would lose interest if the counties became regions.

The same people might support Liverpool and hate Everton despite not having any connection to Liverpool.

People support sports teams to break the tedium and have excitement and something to enjoy. The actual team they follow is secondary.


But they are all foreign teams. We can pick our soccer teams and even change them if we want (I'm sure there's a few 40 year old ex-Blackburn rovers fans floating about Ireland). I don't see anyway regional teams would be well supported and some of them would still be average teams so they certainly wouldn't get much support.

You think people will just stop supporting an elite GAA team? That they will just cut something they love out of their life because a team changes shape.

Maybe, I personally think people aren’t in love with the team, they are in love with the practice of been emotionally invested in a team. Just become a team changes shape it won’t make any difference. Those supporters are like junkies and they will still need to get their hit.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Cunny Funt on October 25, 2017, 10:44:36 PM
Maybe, I personally think people arenít in love with the team, they are in love with the practice of been emotionally invested in a team. Just become a team changes shape it wonít make any difference. Those supporters are like junkies and they will still need to get their hit.
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Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 25, 2017, 10:48:48 PM
For al Dublinís advantaged, they canít play more than 15 players and canít ďbuyĒ in players for positions.

Their time will come to an end. When the last one-team era like this in football ended, it gave way to the most exciting 15 years in the sportís history. Thatís when crowds peaked.

Itís all cycles.

And Dublinís cycle is coming to an end. They, once again, needed Flynn, Brogan, Connolly to win the title. Theyíll produce good players forever, but theyíll not have 3 like that again for 20 years at least.

I get your point bug they needed neither Flynn nor brogan, it Was mcmanamon and Connolly that produced the goods, Flynn had a stinker and  began was quiet
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 25, 2017, 10:50:34 PM
Yes, that's exactly what will happen. If GAA supporters wanted to support an elite team then Leitrim people would be supporting Mayo, Wicklow people supporting Dublin and Limerick people supporting Kerry etc. They don't do that, though I'm sure some might go to big games to watch high quality football.

Most of us are from counties that don't win very often yet few of us have second teams. I was at the All Ireland final this year and roared on Mayo as loudly as any Mayo man around me (like thousands of other neutrals) but none of us would be supporters.

It's supporting your county and club that engages all GAA fans I know. I think most would be left cold at the thought of supporting a regional team and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few players would refuse to play in such a team. The county identity is very deep rooted in the GAA and I don't think that will change.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 25, 2017, 11:17:55 PM
It's supporting your county and club that engages all GAA fans I know. I think most would be left cold at the thought of supporting a regional team and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few players would refuse to play in such a team. The county identity is very deep rooted in the GAA and I don't think that will change.
You are on the money there Zulu fair play.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 25, 2017, 11:38:23 PM


It's supporting your county and club that engages all GAA fans I know. I think most would be left cold at the thought of supporting a regional team
Did Imokilly or South Kerry have no supporters last Sunday?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 25, 2017, 11:45:21 PM


It's supporting your county and club that engages all GAA fans I know. I think most would be left cold at the thought of supporting a regional team
Did Imokilly or South Kerry have no supporters last Sunday?

Zu will keep moving the goalposts to avoid addressing the envitability that Dublin will need to be split.

Fact is if weíre gong to ask them to split and give a fair slice of their money to HQ the rest need to be willing to make radical change too. Divisional teams are proof it can and would work if done correctly.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 12:47:24 AM


It's supporting your county and club that engages all GAA fans I know. I think most would be left cold at the thought of supporting a regional team
Did Imokilly or South Kerry have no supporters last Sunday?

I'm sure they did Rossfan but plenty of divisional teams are poorly supported or folded due to lack of interest. Another point worth noting is the fact that the local club teams still exist and compete whereas what's being proposed here is the end of Roscommon, Leitrim, Longford etc. GAA teams in favour of regional teams. 
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 12:50:35 AM


It's supporting your county and club that engages all GAA fans I know. I think most would be left cold at the thought of supporting a regional team
Did Imokilly or South Kerry have no supporters last Sunday?

Zu will keep moving the goalposts to avoid addressing the envitability that Dublin will need to be split.

Fact is if weíre gong to ask them to split and give a fair slice of their money to HQ the rest need to be willing to make radical change too. Divisional teams are proof it can and would work if done correctly.

How have I moved the posts? Is it only Dublin being split? Can large unsuccessful counties merge? Who funds these regional teams? Where is their home pitch? There is a thousand and one serious hurdles to overcome to make it even possible. We have issues but this is a daft solution.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 26, 2017, 12:52:47 AM


It's supporting your county and club that engages all GAA fans I know. I think most would be left cold at the thought of supporting a regional team
Did Imokilly or South Kerry have no supporters last Sunday?

I'm sure they did Rossfan but plenty of divisional teams are poorly supported or folded due to lack of interest. Another point worth noting is the fact that the local club teams still exist and compete whereas what's being proposed here is the end of Roscommon, Leitrim, Longford etc. GAA teams in favour of regional teams.

Congrats on inventing another straw man argument.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 12:55:51 AM
Eh? If you've regional IC teams then you don't have county teams as they are disbanded in favour of regional teams. Isn't that what you've proposed?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: inthrough on October 26, 2017, 09:52:00 AM


It's supporting your county and club that engages all GAA fans I know. I think most would be left cold at the thought of supporting a regional team
Did Imokilly or South Kerry have no supporters last Sunday?

Zu will keep moving the goalposts to avoid addressing the envitability that Dublin will need to be split.

Fact is if weíre gong to ask them to split and give a fair slice of their money to HQ the rest need to be willing to make radical change too. Divisional teams are proof it can and would work if done correctly.

There is nothing "inevitable" about Dublin being split & I for one would hate to see it.

Funding is a seperate issue altogether & one that needs addressing for sure. How Croke Park can justify the allocation of funding is beyond me.

 But with regard to splitting splitting Dublin?  No.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2017, 09:54:13 AM
Hopefully Dublin will win 5 of the next 7 All Irelands and then the 25 other football Counties might wake up and smell the coffee.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: tonto1888 on October 26, 2017, 10:12:18 AM
Yes, that's exactly what will happen. If GAA supporters wanted to support an elite team then Leitrim people would be supporting Mayo, Wicklow people supporting Dublin and Limerick people supporting Kerry etc. They don't do that, though I'm sure some might go to big games to watch high quality football.

Most of us are from counties that don't win very often yet few of us have second teams. I was at the All Ireland final this year and roared on Mayo as loudly as any Mayo man around me (like thousands of other neutrals) but none of us would be supporters.

It's supporting your county and club that engages all GAA fans I know. I think most would be left cold at the thought of supporting a regional team and I wouldn't be surprised if quite a few players would refuse to play in such a team. The county identity is very deep rooted in the GAA and I don't think that will change.

I agree with this. If, for example, Armagh and Louth combined I wouldn't have the same love for them as I do for Armagh and it just wouldn't be the same supporting them
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: inthrough on October 26, 2017, 10:28:42 AM
Hopefully Dublin will win 5 of the next 7 All Irelands and then the 25 other football Counties might wake up and smell the coffee.

25???
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2017, 11:07:29 AM
9 Ulster, 5 Connacht, Kerry, Louth, Meath, Westmeath,  Laois/Offaly,  Carlow, Kildare Wicklow and Longford.
Sorry it's  24.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 11:20:04 AM
2010 All Ireland winners Cork surely deserve a spot?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2017, 11:22:03 AM
It's a hurling County boyihhhhh. ;D
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Lar Naparka on October 26, 2017, 03:56:09 PM
IMO, changes are taking place in the Ireland of today that are dramatically altering just about every aspect of Irish society and the GAA is no exception to this. Change or be left behind.
GAA heads tend to live in a time warp, oblivious to the great world about them and obsessed with the need to uphold ďtradition,Ē at any cost.
If the GAA was a commercial enterprise, the business model adopted in 1884 could hardly be expected to best suit the interests of the association remain up to the present day and beyond.
Simon Coveney recently said that the Greater Dublin Area had 40% of the republicís population and 50% of its resources and the projection was that by 2040 over 50% of the population would reside there. Already, and Iím talking about the time when he was campaigning for the party leadership so his figures appear to be a considerable underestimation.
Today's headliner in the Indo is: ďBrexit surge will see our population shoot up 1.1m.Ē (That is between now and 2030.) 
Banks and other major financial institutions will seek to follow the money and thatís to be found in the Dublin area. As the eastern region prospers an ever increasing rate, the western seaboard  regions are heading in the opposite direction. 
The gap between Dublin and The Rest in every conceivable way is widening at a dramatic and steadily increasing rate.
The GAA, Dublin included, have had no major say in shaping our countryís present, never mind its future but, even in the alternate world where the GAA finds itself, things canít go on as they are forever.   
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2017, 04:28:44 PM
2016 census 4 Dublin Council areas 1,347,959.
Louth/Meath/Kildare/Wicklow 688,857.
The 11 "South Ulster/East Connacht/West Leinster " Counties (for want of a better term) 683,918. (Allowing 35k for Fermanagh)
 The 2040 figures ????
1.6m?
1.4m?
750k?.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 04:37:25 PM
Nobody is saying there aren't challenges but splits and amalgamations aren't the answer. There's undoubtedly a major issue regarding population trends any county with 100,000 or more should be able to compete for All Irelands if they've their structures right.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2017, 04:44:28 PM
So everything is grand if only bloody Louth, Wicklow, Antrim, Meath and Kildare would get up off their behinds and .......
Meanwhile the 11 Counties with less than 100k ? Plus the hurling Counties and London?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: LooseCannon on October 26, 2017, 04:47:45 PM
9 Ulster, 5 Connacht, Kerry, Louth, Meath, Westmeath,  Laois/Offaly,  Carlow, Kildare Wicklow and Longford.
Sorry it's  24.

What about the sheepshaggers?  Connacht is 4+the sheepshaggers
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 04:57:23 PM
So everything is grand if only bloody Louth, Wicklow, Antrim, Meath and Kildare would get up off their behinds and .......
Meanwhile the 11 Counties with less than 100k ? Plus the hurling Counties and London?

So you want a system that means we all can win All Irelands? What system will bring London up to standard? What about the hurling counties, they are focused on winning in the other GAA code? How would joining Louth, Armagh and Down help Louth win All Irelands? Would you see grown Louth men cry on All Ireland final as the two Louth players on a Down/Louth/Armagh amalgamation jump for joy at the final whistle?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2017, 05:09:12 PM
I'm pointing out facts of population imbalances.
These imbalances are going to get worse as pointed out by Lar.
Getting all emotional abot Louthmen and attacking me for something I never said isn't the way forward.
The title of the thread is the future of the Inter County game which at present and for the forseeable future is being totally distorted as a result of Dublin GAA getting its act together with the aid of HQ.
I don't know the best way to address that and any suggestions people throw out are dismissed out of hand.
As I said  before
We can't split Dublin
We can't pull money from them
We can't amalgamate teams
We can't have graded Inter County Championships
We just carry on.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 26, 2017, 05:20:01 PM
IMO, changes are taking place in the Ireland of today that are dramatically altering just about every aspect of Irish society and the GAA is no exception to this. Change or be left behind.
GAA heads tend to live in a time warp, oblivious to the great world about them and obsessed with the need to uphold ďtradition,Ē at any cost.
If the GAA was a commercial enterprise, the business model adopted in 1884 could hardly be expected to best suit the interests of the association remain up to the present day and beyond.
Simon Coveney recently said that the Greater Dublin Area had 40% of the republicís population and 50% of its resources and the projection was that by 2040 over 50% of the population would reside there. Already, and Iím talking about the time when he was campaigning for the party leadership so his figures appear to be a considerable underestimation.
Today's headliner in the Indo is: ďBrexit surge will see our population shoot up 1.1m.Ē (That is between now and 2030.) 
Banks and other major financial institutions will seek to follow the money and thatís to be found in the Dublin area. As the eastern region prospers an ever increasing rate, the western seaboard  regions are heading in the opposite direction. 
The gap between Dublin and The Rest in every conceivable way is widening at a dramatic and steadily increasing rate.
The GAA, Dublin included, have had no major say in shaping our countryís present, never mind its future but, even in the alternate world where the GAA finds itself, things canít go on as they are forever.   

This post has some very good points.

The only thing i would say is that GAA I find quite a progressive organization who are willing to adopt and implement change.

There are the likes of Joe Brolly who has become the leader of a type of Idiot fringe of the GAA that think the game is better off like it was in previous eras but thankfully Joe and his followers arenít being listened to.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 26, 2017, 05:21:53 PM
IMO, changes are taking place in the Ireland of today that are dramatically altering just about every aspect of Irish society and the GAA is no exception to this. Change or be left behind.
GAA heads tend to live in a time warp, oblivious to the great world about them and obsessed with the need to uphold ďtradition,Ē at any cost.
If the GAA was a commercial enterprise, the business model adopted in 1884 could hardly be expected to best suit the interests of the association remain up to the present day and beyond.
Simon Coveney recently said that the Greater Dublin Area had 40% of the republicís population and 50% of its resources and the projection was that by 2040 over 50% of the population would reside there. Already, and Iím talking about the time when he was campaigning for the party leadership so his figures appear to be a considerable underestimation.
Today's headliner in the Indo is: ďBrexit surge will see our population shoot up 1.1m.Ē (That is between now and 2030.) 
Banks and other major financial institutions will seek to follow the money and thatís to be found in the Dublin area. As the eastern region prospers an ever increasing rate, the western seaboard  regions are heading in the opposite direction. 
The gap between Dublin and The Rest in every conceivable way is widening at a dramatic and steadily increasing rate.
The GAA, Dublin included, have had no major say in shaping our countryís present, never mind its future but, even in the alternate world where the GAA finds itself, things canít go on as they are forever.   

This post has some very good points.

The only thing i would say is that the actual big cats in the GAA are a progressive organization who are willing to adopt and implement change.

There are the likes of Joe Brolly who has become the leader of a type of Idiot fringe of the GAA that think the game is better off like it was in previous eras but thankfully Joe and his followers arenít being listened to.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 06:12:25 PM
I'm pointing out facts of population imbalances.
These imbalances are going to get worse as pointed out by Lar.
Getting all emotional abot Louthmen and attacking me for something I never said isn't the way forward.
The title of the thread is the future of the Inter County game which at present and for the forseeable future is being totally distorted as a result of Dublin GAA getting its act together with the aid of HQ.
I don't know the best way to address that and any suggestions people throw out are dismissed out of hand.
As I said  before
We can't split Dublin
We can't pull money from them
We can't amalgamate teams
We can't have graded Inter County Championships
We just carry on.

I'm not attacking you Rossfan and I'm open to both redistributing GAA money given to Dublin or a graded system and many other suggestions too. We all accept the population trends are problematic and we will have to address it but splits and amalgamations are totally unrealistic. You may as well propose a solution that involves aliens as to propose that.

I actually come at this from a player's POV insofar as I want to see a season where players get plenty of games with a reasonable number of them against opponents they can compete with. I'm not interested in coming up with a format that helps Roscommon or Longford win All Irelands just that if they have a team that can they have a fair shot at doing it.   
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2017, 06:46:50 PM
I'm afraid the population imbalances are going to worsen in a shorter timeframe than I or Lar thought.
An ESRI report on the Health Service estimates a 1m increase in the 26 Co population by 2030 - 12 years and 3 months away.
12 years and 3 months ago was July 2005 .....
Most of that 1m will be within 30/40 miles of O'Connell Bridge in the 5 Counties that already have  population of 2.1m.
So how does the GAA make representative football more competitive so that 20 odd Counties aren't permanently excluded from the closing stages?
Why do the Emlyn Mulligans or Mickey Quinns play their entire IC careers and only about 10,000 people at most will ever see them play?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 26, 2017, 06:48:18 PM
Zulu, youíre not interested in much more than protectionism for Dublin. Everyone knows it by now.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 07:12:18 PM
Zulu, youíre not interested in much more than protectionism for Dublin. Everyone knows it by now.

Back to bed now child.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 07:20:14 PM
I'm afraid the population imbalances are going to worsen in a shorter timeframe than I or Lar thought.
An ESRI report on the Health Service estimates a 1m increase in the 26 Co population by 2030 - 12 years and 3 months away.
12 years and 3 months ago was July 2005 .....
Most of that 1m will be within 30/40 miles of O'Connell Bridge in the 5 Counties that already have  population of 2.1m.
So how does the GAA make representative football more competitive so that 20 odd Counties aren't permanently excluded from the closing stages?
Why do the Emlyn Mulligans or Mickey Quinns play their entire IC careers and only about 10,000 people at most will ever see them play?

It's a massive challenge but as I said, counties with big populations should be able to produce 15-20 very good footballers if they have good structures. Dublin are proof that population doesn't matter if the structures are not there to utilise those numbers.

Clearly there are serious issues for the likes of Roscommon, Longford etc. but it isn't as simple as saying join them together. I'd suggest we look at the funding available for smaller counties and competition structures first. Look at Tipperary who went from being a weak to average team into a very competitive team by good work at underage. AZ is involved there I think so could tell us more but the bottom line is many counties can and should be doing better and if money is the issue then lets address that first.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 26, 2017, 07:41:22 PM
I'm afraid the population imbalances are going to worsen in a shorter timeframe than I or Lar thought.
An ESRI report on the Health Service estimates a 1m increase in the 26 Co population by 2030 - 12 years and 3 months away.
12 years and 3 months ago was July 2005 .....
Most of that 1m will be within 30/40 miles of O'Connell Bridge in the 5 Counties that already have  population of 2.1m.
So how does the GAA make representative football more competitive so that 20 odd Counties aren't permanently excluded from the closing stages?
Why do the Emlyn Mulligans or Mickey Quinns play their entire IC careers and only about 10,000 people at most will ever see them play?

It's a massive challenge but as I said, counties with big populations should be able to produce 15-20 very good footballers if they have good structures. Dublin are proof that population doesn't matter if the structures are not there to utilise those numbers.

Clearly there are serious issues for the likes of Roscommon, Longford etc. but it isn't as simple as saying join them together. I'd suggest we look at the funding available for smaller counties and competition structures first. Look at Tipperary who went from being a weak to average team into a very competitive team by good work at underage. AZ is involved there I think so could tell us more but the bottom line is many counties can and should be doing better and if money is the issue then lets address that first.

Even before they were winning every AI they were humiliating the rest of their province without breaking much of a sweat. I canít recall a time Dublin havenít been in the mix for the last four or werenít one of the contenders for the AI.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 26, 2017, 07:52:45 PM
Why aren't Dublin dominating hurling then if the argumrnts on finance and  gpos sre to hold water ???
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on October 26, 2017, 08:02:36 PM
Dublin, like Kerry and a few others are usually there or thereabouts but they only won 2 All Irelands between 1978 and 2010. In the same period Kerry won 13, Galway and Down 2, Cork 3, Meath 4 so clearly their population didn't make them all-powerful. On top of that they've only been in two more semi finals than Mayo and nine more than Galway who, I think, haven't been in one since 2001.

Again, nobody is denying there are issues but the solutions need to be (somewhat) realistic and worthwhile. Splitting counties and merging others is totally unrealistic in our lifetimes and would create as many problems as it would solve. Merged teams could easily fold as there would be no inherent attachment to the team.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: caprea on October 26, 2017, 08:51:09 PM
Why aren't Dublin dominating hurling then if the argumrnts on finance and  gpos sre to hold water ???

Dublin have won 6 under 21 Leinster since their first in 1967. Half of those have been this decade. So that argument actually backfires.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 26, 2017, 08:53:12 PM
Why aren't Dublin dominating hurling then if the argumrnts on finance and  gpos sre to hold water ???

Dublin have won 6 under 21 Leinster since their first in 1967. Half of those have been this decade. So that argument actually backfires.

Which is why I donít understand why Orchard keeps bringing it up - heís been told it a few times now.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 26, 2017, 09:09:01 PM
Why aren't Dublin dominating hurling then if the argumrnts on finance and  gpos sre to hold water ???

Dublin have won 6 under 21 Leinster since their first in 1967. Half of those have been this decade. So that argument actually backfires.
Agreed. Plus they've been much improved at minor,  and at Senior won the NHL and a Leinster  and came within a whisper of making the 2013 AI Final.
Of the 39,000 registered players in Dublin would 20% of them be hurling orientated or is that too highn?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Captain Obvious on October 26, 2017, 09:28:29 PM
I would say GAA football have changed the rules of its game and structures,formats of it fixtures more often than any team sport over the last few decades and more and more change is still demanded.

There is more to a championship than just becoming the number 1 side and if Dublin are to win the next 5 All Irelands fair play to them but i think that would say as much about the lack of competition they will face as even the great Kerry sides were beaten occasionally. Every county has different objectives such as reaching the last 8 or provincial final and those targets are more appealing to their players and supporters than some 2nd tier competition would be.

The vast majority of counties know they won't be challenging for the All Ireland anytime soon but a win against the odds especially against a neighbours can leave lasting memories, For me the highlight of any cup competition in any sport is the underdog story and i fear the introduced of super 8 with now likely kill counties such as Wexford,Fermanagh,Tipperary from reaching the last 4 again.

Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 26, 2017, 09:33:22 PM
I would say GAA football have changed the rules of its game and structures,formats of it fixtures more often than any team sport over the last few decades and more and more change is still demanded.

There is more to a championship football than just becoming the number 1 side and if Dublin are to win the next 5 All Irelands fair play to them but i think that would say as much about the lack of competition they will face as even the great Kerry sides were beaten occasionally. Every county has different objectives such as reaching the last 8 or provincial final and those targets are more appealing to their players and supporters than some 2nd tier competition would be.

The vast majority of counties know they won't be challenging for the All Ireland anytime soon but a win against the odds especially against a neighbours can leave lasting memories, For me the highlight of any cup competition in any sport is the underdog story and i fear the introduced of super 8 with now likely kill counties such as Wexford,Fermanagh,Tipperary from reaching the last 4 again.

To say it would be because of lack of competition from others would be to ignore the obvious advantages Dublin enjoy, and have been copper-fastened by HQís willingness to grant far too much money to them for games development. Thereís no lack of will to compete in many of the D1/2 counties but more and more theyíre realising theyíre playing in a rigged system where insane demands are placed on them to try to keep pace with a county with the size and influence of a province.

The situation we have is not sustainable and the hokey attempt by Duffy to paper over the declining interest in the sport on his way out with the Super 8 is the biggest admission of that fact.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Lar Naparka on October 26, 2017, 09:49:23 PM
Dublin, like Kerry and a few others are usually there or thereabouts but they only won 2 All Irelands between 1978 and 2010. In the same period Kerry won 13, Galway and Down 2, Cork 3, Meath 4 so clearly their population didn't make them all-powerful. On top of that they've only been in two more semi finals than Mayo and nine more than Galway who, I think, haven't been in one since 2001.

Again, nobody is denying there are issues but the solutions need to be (somewhat) realistic and worthwhile. Splitting counties and merging others is totally unrealistic in our lifetimes and would create as many problems as it would solve. Merged teams could easily fold as there would be no inherent attachment to the team.
Of course it didnít, the size of the population per se means little. If there are really 8 millions bicycles in Beijing, how come a Chinese never won the Tour de France?
There are serious advantages in having a huge population but only if they are properly exploited and Dublin is taking full advantage of those benefits. The Dublin GAA community canít be faulted for that as any other county, faced by the same circumstances, would do the same but thatís just a hypothetical issue; the reality is that the gap in resources between Dublin and every other county in the land is widening all the time.
What good will it do for Gaelic football if when the AI series becomes as irrelevant as the Leinster championship?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: From the Bunker on October 26, 2017, 10:27:06 PM
There is no real way back! You take money away from Dublin now and there would be consternation. They are used to having it now and their system depends on it. There is not enough to go around to other counties to even things up with Dublin. It is what it is! Super 8 gives Dublin two chances to mess up and still win an All Ireland. I read talk here about how far Tipperary have gone! How far have they really gone. Would they get within 9 points of Dublin? Can anyone see them winning a Munster title?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: tonto1888 on October 26, 2017, 10:46:43 PM
I'm afraid the population imbalances are going to worsen in a shorter timeframe than I or Lar thought.
An ESRI report on the Health Service estimates a 1m increase in the 26 Co population by 2030 - 12 years and 3 months away.
12 years and 3 months ago was July 2005 .....
Most of that 1m will be within 30/40 miles of O'Connell Bridge in the 5 Counties that already have  population of 2.1m.
So how does the GAA make representative football more competitive so that 20 odd Counties aren't permanently excluded from the closing stages?
Why do the Emlyn Mulligans or Mickey Quinns play their entire IC careers and only about 10,000 people at most will ever see them play?

It's a massive challenge but as I said, counties with big populations should be able to produce 15-20 very good footballers if they have good structures. Dublin are proof that population doesn't matter if the structures are not there to utilise those numbers.

Clearly there are serious issues for the likes of Roscommon, Longford etc. but it isn't as simple as saying join them together. I'd suggest we look at the funding available for smaller counties and competition structures first. Look at Tipperary who went from being a weak to average team into a very competitive team by good work at underage. AZ is involved there I think so could tell us more but the bottom line is many counties can and should be doing better and if money is the issue then lets address that first.

Even before they were winning every AI they were humiliating the rest of their province without breaking much of a sweat. I canít recall a time Dublin havenít been in the mix for the last four or werenít one of the contenders for the AI.

You're not very old are you?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 26, 2017, 11:01:28 PM
I'm afraid the population imbalances are going to worsen in a shorter timeframe than I or Lar thought.
An ESRI report on the Health Service estimates a 1m increase in the 26 Co population by 2030 - 12 years and 3 months away.
12 years and 3 months ago was July 2005 .....
Most of that 1m will be within 30/40 miles of O'Connell Bridge in the 5 Counties that already have  population of 2.1m.
So how does the GAA make representative football more competitive so that 20 odd Counties aren't permanently excluded from the closing stages?
Why do the Emlyn Mulligans or Mickey Quinns play their entire IC careers and only about 10,000 people at most will ever see them play?

It's a massive challenge but as I said, counties with big populations should be able to produce 15-20 very good footballers if they have good structures. Dublin are proof that population doesn't matter if the structures are not there to utilise those numbers.

Clearly there are serious issues for the likes of Roscommon, Longford etc. but it isn't as simple as saying join them together. I'd suggest we look at the funding available for smaller counties and competition structures first. Look at Tipperary who went from being a weak to average team into a very competitive team by good work at underage. AZ is involved there I think so could tell us more but the bottom line is many counties can and should be doing better and if money is the issue then lets address that first.

Even before they were winning every AI they were humiliating the rest of their province without breaking much of a sweat. I canít recall a time Dublin havenít been in the mix for the last four or werenít one of the contenders for the AI.

You're not very old are you?

Youíre really reaching now.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: dublin7 on October 27, 2017, 08:32:43 AM
I'm afraid the population imbalances are going to worsen in a shorter timeframe than I or Lar thought.
An ESRI report on the Health Service estimates a 1m increase in the 26 Co population by 2030 - 12 years and 3 months away.
12 years and 3 months ago was July 2005 .....
Most of that 1m will be within 30/40 miles of O'Connell Bridge in the 5 Counties that already have  population of 2.1m.
So how does the GAA make representative football more competitive so that 20 odd Counties aren't permanently excluded from the closing stages?
Why do the Emlyn Mulligans or Mickey Quinns play their entire IC careers and only about 10,000 people at most will ever see them play?

It's a massive challenge but as I said, counties with big populations should be able to produce 15-20 very good footballers if they have good structures. Dublin are proof that population doesn't matter if the structures are not there to utilise those numbers.

Clearly there are serious issues for the likes of Roscommon, Longford etc. but it isn't as simple as saying join them together. I'd suggest we look at the funding available for smaller counties and competition structures first. Look at Tipperary who went from being a weak to average team into a very competitive team by good work at underage. AZ is involved there I think so could tell us more but the bottom line is many counties can and should be doing better and if money is the issue then lets address that first.

Even before they were winning every AI they were humiliating the rest of their province without breaking much of a sweat. I canít recall a time Dublin havenít been in the mix for the last four or werenít one of the contenders for the AI.

You're not very old are you?

Youíre really reaching now.

From 1996 - 2001 the dubs were rebuilding under Mickey Whelan/Tommy Carr and were basically Ciaran Whelan and 14 others.  He carried that team on his back in those years and I seen them ship some heavy defeats around the country in the league.  Even under Pillar Caffrey while the dubs began to dominate Leinster they struggled to get past the qtr final stage.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: AZOffaly on October 27, 2017, 10:19:43 AM
There is no real way back! You take money away from Dublin now and there would be consternation. They are used to having it now and their system depends on it. There is not enough to go around to other counties to even things up with Dublin. It is what it is! Super 8 gives Dublin two chances to mess up and still win an All Ireland. I read talk here about how far Tipperary have gone! How far have they really gone. Would they get within 9 points of Dublin? Can anyone see them winning a Munster title?

Tipp have come on massively in fairness. From division 4 cannon fodder to Division 2, with an All Ireland Semi Final appearance. They are not in the top 4 or 6 teams in the country, but they are unrecognisable from years ago.

However, that will change too, unless they cop on. The hurling lads have put the foot down, and killed off the dual player at underage, which means even at 15/16 we are losing lads now. Those sort of self inflicted wounds are as bad as anything Croke Park does or doesn't do. Very frustrating.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: tonto1888 on October 27, 2017, 10:20:57 AM
I'm afraid the population imbalances are going to worsen in a shorter timeframe than I or Lar thought.
An ESRI report on the Health Service estimates a 1m increase in the 26 Co population by 2030 - 12 years and 3 months away.
12 years and 3 months ago was July 2005 .....
Most of that 1m will be within 30/40 miles of O'Connell Bridge in the 5 Counties that already have  population of 2.1m.
So how does the GAA make representative football more competitive so that 20 odd Counties aren't permanently excluded from the closing stages?
Why do the Emlyn Mulligans or Mickey Quinns play their entire IC careers and only about 10,000 people at most will ever see them play?

It's a massive challenge but as I said, counties with big populations should be able to produce 15-20 very good footballers if they have good structures. Dublin are proof that population doesn't matter if the structures are not there to utilise those numbers.

Clearly there are serious issues for the likes of Roscommon, Longford etc. but it isn't as simple as saying join them together. I'd suggest we look at the funding available for smaller counties and competition structures first. Look at Tipperary who went from being a weak to average team into a very competitive team by good work at underage. AZ is involved there I think so could tell us more but the bottom line is many counties can and should be doing better and if money is the issue then lets address that first.

Even before they were winning every AI they were humiliating the rest of their province without breaking much of a sweat. I canít recall a time Dublin havenít been in the mix for the last four or werenít one of the contenders for the AI.

You're not very old are you?

Youíre really reaching now.

how am I reaching? If you really cant recall a time when they haven't been in the mix for the AI or in the last four then you really aren't very old

from 2000-2009 they had 3 semi final appearances and a couple of spankings in the QFs. In 2003 we beat the well in a round 3 qualifier. This decade is a very different story
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 27, 2017, 11:07:24 AM
AZ - experiencing the "joys" of promoting football in a hurley County :-\
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: AZOffaly on October 27, 2017, 11:25:02 AM
AZ - experiencing the "joys" of promoting football in a hurley County :-\

They like their football too, but hurling is and will remain #1. The problem is the last minor manager convinced them that getting to an All Ireland Football and Hurling Minor Final in the same year was a failure because they won neither. Therefore he refused to pick anyone that chose football over hurling for his minors the next year. They won the All Ireland, while the footballers lost both games and were out early. Of course then he goes back and cherry picks a couple of footballers who miraculously hadn't forgotten how to hurl and one of them was MOTM in the All Ireland final. That same group was with me and there were easily 8 or 9 lads on the hurling who would have been on the football. They won the Munster U16 Football 2 years previously. Granted Kerry were still North/South but to go from that to not winning a game at Minor was a direct result of the policy.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: johnneycool on October 27, 2017, 11:26:31 AM
AZ - experiencing the "joys" of promoting football in a hurley County :-\

Try promoting hurling in a footballing county, its just the same joyous experience.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 27, 2017, 11:42:55 AM
So we can rule out  6 Hurling Counties (Cork's pop ensures they can compete at football) of Wexford, Kilkenny,  Waterford, Tipp, Limerick and Clare competing for Sam in addition to the 11 little Counties plus Antrim, Louth, Wicklow and London.
Leaves us with 12 regular or potential regular Sam competitors.
I expect the current "crisis" will be considered over when a couple more of the big Counties can beat Dublin once in a while and big crowds will come out to watch.
Rest of us live in hope of the odd Longford shock or Ros or Monaghan punching above our weight. Sligo might shnake an oul Connacht every 30 years.
It's a lot to be asking lads to basically give up on having a life for.
But we won't be going back to pure amateur pastime at IC level and we're not going to pay the lads so......?

Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 27, 2017, 01:28:52 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: mrhardyannual on October 27, 2017, 01:49:38 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
This discussion based on demographics is going nowhere. The 2014 census shows Louth with a population 2000 less than Mayo and it has far less problems in terms of distance to travel to work, college etc. No reason why GAA shouldnt flourish here but it doesn't. Meath has approx 50% greater population than Mayo, huge geographical advantages, a recent? history of All -Ireland wins, a leading collehe in St Pats Navan yet neither county or club teams are challenging. Some hard looking at internal workings of these counties should be the first order of business.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 27, 2017, 02:58:51 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?

Yes.

Trying to say a one-off match changes anything about financial or demographic realities is genuinely crazy, Farr.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: seafoid on October 27, 2017, 03:20:03 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
This discussion based on demographics is going nowhere. The 2014 census shows Louth with a population 2000 less than Mayo and it has far less problems in terms of distance to travel to work, college etc. No reason why GAA shouldnt flourish here but it doesn't. Meath has approx 50% greater population than Mayo, huge geographical advantages, a recent? history of All -Ireland wins, a leading collehe in St Pats Navan yet neither county or club teams are challenging. Some hard looking at internal workings of these counties should be the first order of business.
Louth is soccer country.
Meath is in remedial class. Many of the footballers should be in a home for the bewildered.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on October 27, 2017, 03:21:38 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?

Yes.

Trying to say a one-off match changes anything about financial or demographic realities is genuinely crazy, Farr.



why then arent Dublin dominating hurling ??????????
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 27, 2017, 03:50:30 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?

Yes.

Trying to say a one-off match changes anything about financial or demographic realities is genuinely crazy, Farr.



why then arent Dublin dominating hurling ??????????

Re: last five times someone had the patience to explain to you why you chose a terrible gotcha with the hurlers, and they actually prove the point you're trying to refute but you chose to ignore it.

Not going to respond to it again in the future.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 27, 2017, 04:29:29 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
This discussion based on demographics is going nowhere. The 2014 census shows Louth with a population 2000 less than Mayo and it has far less problems in terms of distance to travel to work, college etc. No reason why GAA shouldnt flourish here but it doesn't. Meath has approx 50% greater population than Mayo, huge geographical advantages, a recent? history of All -Ireland wins, a leading collehe in St Pats Navan yet neither county or club teams are challenging. Some hard looking at internal workings of these counties should be the first order of business.
Feck them - look after the little Counties the fŪor Gaelic football territories.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Lar Naparka on October 28, 2017, 12:12:31 AM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
Of course they would, ass loads of them. This is Ireland, after all and begrudgery is a national characteristic. Look at the amount of shite posted here when Noel and Pateen told their side of the story when it was alleged that the players forced them to step down. Most of the begrudgers would appear to come from a northern county that is not synonymous with open, attacking football, ala the Mayo style.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 28, 2017, 12:22:33 AM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
Of course they would, ass loads of them. This is Ireland, after all and begrudgery is a national characteristic. Look at the amount of shite posted here when Noel and Pateen told their side of the story when it was alleged that the players forced them to step down. Most of the begrudgers would appear to come from a northern county that is not synonymous with open, attacking football, ala the Mayo style.

I think you misreadwhat he meant by that question Lar. Is the Jameson going down well?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on October 28, 2017, 11:33:25 AM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
I know a few West Ros bucks who wouldn't have been very happy.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Lar Naparka on October 28, 2017, 01:05:20 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
Of course they would, ass loads of them. This is Ireland, after all and begrudgery is a national characteristic. Look at the amount of shite posted here when Noel and Pateen told their side of the story when it was alleged that the players forced them to step down. Most of the begrudgers would appear to come from a northern county that is not synonymous with open, attacking football, ala the Mayo style.

I think you misreadwhat he meant by that question Lar. Is the Jameson going down well?
Just stop after the first two words, Syf and you'll be alright.
Any further and you are way in over your head. It just might be possible that the reaction I was hoping for wasn't going to come (again!) from you.If you were a salmon on the Suck or the Shannon, you'd have been hooked long ago. :D
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on October 28, 2017, 04:33:29 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
Of course they would, ass loads of them. This is Ireland, after all and begrudgery is a national characteristic. Look at the amount of shite posted here when Noel and Pateen told their side of the story when it was alleged that the players forced them to step down. Most of the begrudgers would appear to come from a northern county that is not synonymous with open, attacking football, ala the Mayo style.

I think you misreadwhat he meant by that question Lar. Is the Jameson going down well?
Just stop after the first two words, Syf and you'll be alright.
Any further and you are way in over your head. It just might be possible that the reaction I was hoping for wasn't going to come (again!) from you.If you were a salmon on the Suck or the Shannon, you'd have been hooked long ago. :D

???

Are you trying to claim you wrote that whole spiel to try and troll no one in particular, rather than simply misreading what was wrote? C'mon man.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Lar Naparka on October 28, 2017, 05:27:38 PM
If Mayo won the final this year would people be complaining?
Of course they would, ass loads of them. This is Ireland, after all and begrudgery is a national characteristic. Look at the amount of shite posted here when Noel and Pateen told their side of the story when it was alleged that the players forced them to step down. Most of the begrudgers would appear to come from a northern county that is not synonymous with open, attacking football, ala the Mayo style.

I think you misreadwhat he meant by that question Lar. Is the Jameson going down well?
Just stop after the first two words, Syf and you'll be alright.
Any further and you are way in over your head. It just might be possible that the reaction I was hoping for wasn't going to come (again!) from you.If you were a salmon on the Suck or the Shannon, you'd have been hooked long ago. :D

???

Are you trying to claim you wrote that whole spiel to try and troll no one in particular, rather than simply misreading what was wrote? C'mon man.
No. Syf, I meant what I said in the first post ad I don't honestly know how any rational person could misinterpret it. Nobody irrational either and so that leaves only you.☺
Now if you can't take Farr's words at face value, pray enlighten us.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 06, 2017, 02:57:10 PM
I see the Tyrone Sec is stealing my ideas - talking about need for tiered AI football Championships while keeping the Provincials as they are.
Please send on the usual fee Mr McCaughey  :D
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: mrhardyannual on December 07, 2017, 11:23:08 AM
I see the Tyrone Sec is stealing my ideas - talking about need for tiered AI football Championships while keeping the Provincials as they are.
Please send on the usual fee Mr McCaughey  :D
I'm only surprised that you are surprised at Tyrone running with this idea. The "big" counties would love this. All sponsorship etc would be directed at the top tier counties as all tv & media coverage would be directed in the same way. Has a tiered system in hurling advanced even one of the lesser counties? The system is designed to keep the traditional hurling counties isolated from the rest and allows the Association claim that it is catering for the needs of weaker counties without doing anything for them. Arguably hurling is now confined to 9 counties (all Munster bar Kerry, Kilkenny, Wexford, Dublin and Galway). Offaly, Laois & Antrim have now dropped to a lower level with Kerry, Carlow & Westmeath.  A tired Football championship would ring the death-knell of football ambition in half the counties.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 11:37:49 AM
When was serious hurling not confined to 9 counties?
You'd think Wicklow, Ros etc were competing for Liam McCarthy for years until the tiers were brought in.
Not much "football ambition" in around 20 Counties as it stands.
See Derry where players are not interested in playing for the County.
Wasn't much media coverage of the Carlow v London Qualifier game last Summer.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on December 07, 2017, 03:30:40 PM
When was serious hurling not confined to 9 counties?
You'd think Wicklow, Ros etc were competing for Liam McCarthy for years until the tiers were brought in.
Not much "football ambition" in around 20 Counties as it stands.
See Derry where players are not interested in playing for the County.
Wasn't much media coverage of the Carlow v London Qualifier game last Summer.

Football is far more widespread than hurling. The actual national game operates to very different dynamics than a minority sport like hurling and aping their elitist structures is not going to slow down the declining interest in football.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 04:15:27 PM
Any thoughts on how to increase interest then?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on December 07, 2017, 04:25:56 PM
Any thoughts on how to increase interest then?

Put the money you're pumping into the already 800lb gorilla that's Dublin into coaching and infrastructure planning in other football counties.

This is not complex but HQ and weak-willed officials are addicts looking for the quickest money fix and Dublin still provides that.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: OgraAnDun on December 07, 2017, 05:18:31 PM
When was serious hurling not confined to 9 counties?
You'd think Wicklow, Ros etc were competing for Liam McCarthy for years until the tiers were brought in.
Not much "football ambition" in around 20 Counties as it stands.
See Derry where players are not interested in playing for the County.
Wasn't much media coverage of the Carlow v London Qualifier game last Summer.

I suppose there will be for the Autoglass Repair C Football Championship? At least Carlow had their days in the sun against Dublin (on Sky) and Monaghan (also, I believe, on Sky). Their supporters had the hope of being two wins and a lucky draw away from an AIQF as well.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Gmac on December 07, 2017, 05:29:57 PM
I see the Tyrone Sec is stealing my ideas - talking about need for tiered AI football Championships while keeping the Provincials as they are.
Please send on the usual fee Mr McCaughey  :D
the gaa have it backwards in football the leagues should be the championship run from april on with promotion and relegation and div 1 champ equal current all Ireland champ ,forget about current system it's a joke with 25 teams no chance of winning . The league format would give weaker counties a chance to implement longer plans for success and to gauge actual success not 1 or 2 meaningless wins in a competition u have zero chance of winning
Club championship could be played from August on
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 06:40:25 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun link=topic=28276.msg1760355#msg1760355 date=151 Their supporters had the hope of being two wins and a lucky draw away from an AIQF as well.
[/quote
Are and I was only 2 numbers away from the Lotto jackpot....
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: OgraAnDun on December 07, 2017, 07:03:33 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun link=topic=28276.msg1760355#msg1760355 date=151 Their supporters had the hope of being two wins and a lucky draw away from an AIQF as well.
[/quote
Are and I was only 2 numbers away from the Lotto jackpot....

But you played for the thrill/craic/experience, didn't you? Would you bother paying that Ä2.50 if the prize was a fiver, even if your chances of winning were higher?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 07:20:03 PM
I have a chance of winning.
Carlow and around 20 other Counties have no chance of Sam.
Ballinameen aren't in the same championship as St Brigids.
They try just as hard to win the JFC as Brids do to win the Senior.
They have a chance of winning the JFC,  they will NEVER win the SFC unless oil is discovered around Tartan or Dooneen....
In 65 years only 2 small (under 100,000) counties have reached AIFS.
Ros 1962 and 1980 and Offaly who had a golden age of 22 years with 6 finals - last one  35 years ago.
No one under 45 can really remember a small County reaching an AI Final.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Orchard park on December 07, 2017, 09:35:22 PM
When was serious hurling not confined to 9 counties?
You'd think Wicklow, Ros etc were competing for Liam McCarthy for years until the tiers were brought in.
Not much "football ambition" in around 20 Counties as it stands.
See Derry where players are not interested in playing for the County.
Wasn't much media coverage of the Carlow v London Qualifier game last Summer.

Football is far more widespread than hurling. The actual national game operates to very different dynamics than a minority sport like hurling and aping their elitist structures is not going to slow down the declining interest in football.

On a gaa  forum that really shows your knowledge of hurling!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: mrhardyannual on December 07, 2017, 09:45:07 PM
When was serious hurling not confined to 9 counties?
You'd think Wicklow, Ros etc were competing for Liam McCarthy for years until the tiers were brought in.
Not much "football ambition" in around 20 Counties as it stands.
See Derry where players are not interested in playing for the County.
Wasn't much media coverage of the Carlow v London Qualifier game last Summer.
My point was that a tiered system has not improved hurling and therefore cannot be held up as an exemplar for improving football.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 10:18:54 PM
Ok.
3 Competitions with teams of similar standard would make things more interesting at least.

How is the present system improving football?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: OgraAnDun on December 07, 2017, 10:27:54 PM
I have a chance of winning.
Carlow and around 20 other Counties have no chance of Sam.
Ballinameen aren't in the same championship as St Brigids.
They try just as hard to win the JFC as Brids do to win the Senior.
They have a chance of winning the JFC,  they will NEVER win the SFC unless oil is discovered around Tartan or Dooneen....
In 65 years only 2 small (under 100,000) counties have reached AIFS.
Ros 1962 and 1980 and Offaly who had a golden age of 22 years with 6 finals - last one  35 years ago.
No one under 45 can really remember a small County reaching an AI Final.

Yeah but like I said they have a chance of their day in the sun. In fact, they got it twice and had the hope of more. In this C competition they'll get only a little more coverage than the Nicky Rackard, in other words one paragraph in an article summing up all the games in the C competition. The club competition works because it's embedded into the culture and it's not so much about the high profile matches.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: mrhardyannual on December 07, 2017, 11:48:21 PM
Ok.
3 Competitions with teams of similar standard would make things more interesting at least.

How is the present system improving football?
More interesting for whom?
The players and counties for whom this is being proposed (by those who would stay in the elite division/s)want nothing to do with it. I'm always wary of groups and individuals who think they know better than I do what's best for me.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 07, 2017, 11:59:43 PM
More interesting for players who play in a competition they have a decent chance of winning and progressing to a higher level.
Like St Brigids B and Michael Glaveys.

How does the present  I C  All Ireland system improve football?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Esmarelda on December 08, 2017, 09:59:03 AM
Ok.
3 Competitions with teams of similar standard would make things more interesting at least.

How is the present system improving football?
More interesting for whom?
The players and counties for whom this is being proposed (by those who would stay in the elite division/s)want nothing to do with it. I'm always wary of groups and individuals who think they know better than I do what's best for me.
This, in my opinion, is the crux of the discussion on this and many other threads.

The intercounty players were asked as a whole what they wanted about 18 months ago. They said they wanted to keep the provincial championships, the didn't want a tiered championship and they wanted the championship games/training ratio brought down. That's exactly what they're getting next summer.

Of course the players aren't the only group that should be listened to but I think they're one of the most important stakeholders.

Who else's opinion should be considered, and in what order, is open to debate but I'd have thought that the media generally, who drive a lot of the reform talk, shouldn't be near the top of such a list.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 08, 2017, 10:12:35 AM
Decisions in the GAA are made by the wise administrators in Congress and implemented by the equally wise ones in Central Council.
Hopefully they listen to the relevant ones but sometimes they just have to lead to boldly move on from endless debate and discussion.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: didlyi on December 08, 2017, 11:06:43 AM
The Tiered system in hurling will work better than in football because in hurling the difference between the top an d the bottom is incomparable really. In football the likes of Carlow can put it up to the Dubs on a given day but probably never beat them. In hurling Cavan wouldnt come within 30 points of Galway if they played them every day for a year. Thats just the difference between the 2 games in terms of scoring power and skills required, and no reflection on the calibre of sportmen in Cavan. So less of the jibes at hurling being elitist because of the gap in standards and more about doing whats best for football as a spectacle. IMO a tiered system is NOT not the answer for football.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Esmarelda on December 08, 2017, 11:07:08 AM
Decisions in the GAA are made by the wise administrators in Congress and implemented by the equally wise ones in Central Council.
Hopefully they listen to the relevant ones but sometimes they just have to lead to boldly move on from endless debate and discussion.
And in this case, they largely listened to what the players wanted and highlighted that fact when they announced the new structures.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: mrhardyannual on December 08, 2017, 11:14:21 AM
Decisions in the GAA are made by the wise administrators in Congress and implemented by the equally wise ones in Central Council.
Hopefully they listen to the relevant ones but sometimes they just have to lead to boldly move on from endless debate and discussion.
The introduction of tiered competitions across any range of sports has diminished the status and earning power of teams relegated/placed in the lower divisions. Teams in League of Ireland Div2 (or whatever it's called) are nearly anonymous. The Europa League at the next level has lost all significance bar the semi-finals and finals. The Pro 14 in Rugby has reduced club rugby in Ireland to a few column inches now and again. Even the Secondary European Rugby cup competition that Connacht play in this year barely gets a mention. I could go on and on. Players know when competitions are relevant or not. In this regard history and tradition are important. There is no desire anywhere to turn the All- Ireland Championship into a League where you graduate upwards or downwards based on results. That is what we have in the NFL. But once a year in the championship all teams live in hope. You might find that hope unrealistic for some but it doesn't prevent them trying. Clubs from towns and villages across England enter the FA Cup each year and their chances of beating Dagenham are no more realistic than their chance of beating Man City. The opportunity to pit yourself against the best is what drives them.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 08, 2017, 11:58:08 AM
So do you want an end to senior, Inter and Junior at club level?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: BennyHarp on December 08, 2017, 12:42:14 PM
Whenever a tiered system is mentioned people act like you are removing teams completely from ever competing at a higher level. Just like the systems in most counties in the GAA if a team / county shows progress they can be in the top tier within 2 years if they are in the lowest division to start with (based on a 3 tier system). Then they can have a whole year "in the sun". Over the years counties will get promoted and relegated and there will be plenty of success stories and romance as unlikely teams make progress and current "big" counties slip down divisions. Is there any real urgency in the like of Meath, Derry or even Armagh at the minute - slipping to a division 3 championship would soon make them get their finger out.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Syferus on December 08, 2017, 03:55:05 PM
No one really wants a tiered championship. Nevermind that the GAA that protects and wildly funds its cash cow in Dublin is never going to willingly implode its only other big money maker, the provincial championships. Supporters have no interest in the ties that those systems would throw up.

Why won't the pushers get that and start talking about proposals grounded in reality, like sorting out the funding and coaching imbalances and forcing counties to adhere to a financial cap for IC preparation? Lord only knows.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Captain Obvious on December 08, 2017, 04:50:38 PM
As was said before the NFL should be made more important and it seems the only way to do that is to connect it up with the championship. Most team sports have a league and cup competitions. The All Ireland football championship is a cup competition and one of the best parts of any cup competition is the underdog story and upsets along the way regardless who wins it.

Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Zulu on December 08, 2017, 04:54:53 PM
What are you on about? Mayo v Dublin, Kerry v Tyrone, Roscommon v Donegal, Meath v Cavan wouldn't bring crowds? Like all other sports, supporters will follow a successful team and bigger numbers will go to games that are important or where the game is likely to be competitive.

The idea we will only get big crowds for provincial championships is nonsense. We can get crowds for many games if they are of value and between teams of similar ability. Once again, we know Dublin, Kerry and Mayo are the best teams in their province in 2018 and Tyrone are most likely the best in Ulster. Moreover, we know that if one or all of them don't win their province in 2018 they will likely get further than the team that does win it. Winning a provincial title is only great for a team that hasn't won one in a while and even then it was of little consolation to Galway when they lost to Tipp.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Esmarelda on December 08, 2017, 05:02:00 PM
Turn the provincials into a league type structure. Play everyone in your group once.
Two groups in both Ulster and Leinster with the two winners playing in the final.
One group in Connacht and Munster with the top two playing the final (problem for New York admittedly).
Winner of one province plays losing finalist in another province in AI Quarter Finals. Knockout from there on.
Pros - Provincials kept, more games for everyone, hysteria over Super 8s is gone.
Cons - Risk of hammerings still there, risk of dead rubber games.

Keep the leagues as they are but split the divisions of eight in half again so each team has three games.

So you have January competitions. Then a break for club. Intercounty leagues as above. Another break for club games. Then Provincials/AI series.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: mrhardyannual on December 08, 2017, 05:20:25 PM
So do you want an end to senior, Inter and Junior at club level?
No I don't. As I pointed out earlier history and tradition play their part in all competitions. Senior and Junior championships at club level have existed since the dawn of the Association. Intermediate was a logical addition when numbers became unwieldy. No county was ever graded Junior. They fielded Senior and Junior and (later) teams.  Our leagues are graded and progressive. They weren't always so. In the mid 90s there were four equal divisions in the league for one year. Teams want a league and a championship.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 08, 2017, 06:39:42 PM
Roscommon among others were graded Junior in the 1930s.
Our second AI was the Junior in 1940 which was our first team.
We then went up to Senior with some success.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: mrhardyannual on December 08, 2017, 11:13:47 PM
Roscommon among others were graded Junior in the 1930s.
Our second AI was the Junior in 1940 which was our first team.
We then went up to Senior with some success.

You are now clutching at straws. Roscommon applied to be graded at Junior level at the 1938 Connacht Convention, following the move made by Leitrim the previous year. This is/was a move open to any team (most recently a right exercised by Kilkenny). Roscommon played Junior in 1938, '39 (losing the home final to Dublin) and '40 when they won the competition. The following year Ros lost by single point to Galway in the Connacht Final (a Galway team that lost three All Ireland Senior Finals). It is arguable that Roscommon would have held their own in the Senior Championships of '39 & 40 against a declining and internally divided Mayo and an emerging Galway.

At any rate a team can still apply to be regraded to Junior but despite their chances of winning being improved there is no rush to do so. At club level a club can apply to be regraded downwards at any time. That rarely happens either. My own club haven't won a senior club title in almost 50 years. In that time we played Intermediate for two years when Senior Championship status depended on Senior League status. In all that time nobody in the club would dare suggest dropping to Intermediate even if it meant winning. Our local Secondary School won a Hogan Cup in 1977 and an All-Ireland B title in 1996 (Teams knocked out in early round of A were eligible to play B). Anybody in any of the 5 or 6 clubs that contributed to the 1977 team can name that team. Only the families of the 1996 team remember who was on that team.

There is no desire to play in secondary competitions. Players are ambitious. If the players in the counties due to play in the new second tier hurling championship (Joe McDonagh Cup) were given the option of playing in that competition or the Senior Hurling Championship they would vote en-bloc for the upper grade.

Face facts. Secondary competitions are a Ponzi Scheme sold to the gullible. They allow the "Elite" to play more "high-profile" games, hog publicity and sponsors. They undermine the great value of representing your school/club/county even against outrageous odds. It's a continuation of the "everyone gets a medal" Irish dancing mentality that has a place up to U-14 grade.


 
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: LooseCannon on December 08, 2017, 11:56:02 PM
Sure in the early noughties, we (Offaly) had both a senior and junior team, and our junior team used to hammer the seniors. Only in Offaly.
The junior team hardly trained collectively, and if I recall correctly, won a Leinster in Ď01.
Oh well.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 09, 2017, 12:06:55 AM
Offaly seems like a fun place.
MyHardy seems like the kind of chap I wouldn't like to have a pint with.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: AZOffaly on December 09, 2017, 01:15:54 AM
Sure in the early noughties, we (Offaly) had both a senior and junior team, and our junior team used to hammer the seniors. Only in Offaly.
The junior team hardly trained collectively, and if I recall correctly, won a Leinster in Ď01.
Oh well.

I think it was 98. They lost the All Ireland final to Tipp I think?
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: lenny on December 09, 2017, 08:05:54 AM
Roscommon among others were graded Junior in the 1930s.
Our second AI was the Junior in 1940 which was our first team.
We then went up to Senior with some success.

You are now clutching at straws. Roscommon applied to be graded at Junior level at the 1938 Connacht Convention, following the move made by Leitrim the previous year. This is/was a move open to any team (most recently a right exercised by Kilkenny). Roscommon played Junior in 1938, '39 (losing the home final to Dublin) and '40 when they won the competition. The following year Ros lost by single point to Galway in the Connacht Final (a Galway team that lost three All Ireland Senior Finals). It is arguable that Roscommon would have held their own in the Senior Championships of '39 & 40 against a declining and internally divided Mayo and an emerging Galway.

At any rate a team can still apply to be regraded to Junior but despite their chances of winning being improved there is no rush to do so. At club level a club can apply to be regraded downwards at any time. That rarely happens either. My own club haven't won a senior club title in almost 50 years. In that time we played Intermediate for two years when Senior Championship status depended on Senior League status. In all that time nobody in the club would dare suggest dropping to Intermediate even if it meant winning. Our local Secondary School won a Hogan Cup in 1977 and an All-Ireland B title in 1996 (Teams knocked out in early round of A were eligible to play B). Anybody in any of the 5 or 6 clubs that contributed to the 1977 team can name that team. Only the families of the 1996 team remember who was on that team.

There is no desire to play in secondary competitions. Players are ambitious. If the players in the counties due to play in the new second tier hurling championship (Joe McDonagh Cup) were given the option of playing in that competition or the Senior Hurling Championship they would vote en-bloc for the upper grade.

Face facts. Secondary competitions are a Ponzi Scheme sold to the gullible. They allow the "Elite" to play more "high-profile" games, hog publicity and sponsors. They undermine the great value of representing your school/club/county even against outrageous odds. It's a continuation of the "everyone gets a medal" Irish dancing mentality that has a place up to U-14 grade.

Have secondary club  competitions been sold to the gullible? I haven't seen or heard any complaints, in fact intermediate and junior club competitions seem to becoming more high profile all the time. The media coverage given to Moy in the build up and after winning the ulster club intermediate was similar to the coverage given to slaughtneil who won the senior. People like you are creating scare stories when there is no reason county intermediate and junior can't work the same successful way they work at club level. As a Derry supporter I would love to see Derry playing in an intermediate competition against strong counties like Armagh and Meath. There we would have a realistic chance of progress and success.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: LooseCannon on December 09, 2017, 10:50:56 AM
Sure in the early noughties, we (Offaly) had both a senior and junior team, and our junior team used to hammer the seniors. Only in Offaly.
The junior team hardly trained collectively, and if I recall correctly, won a Leinster in Ď01.
Oh well.

I think it was 98. They lost the All Ireland final to Tipp I think?

Yeah won one in Ď98 alright.
Ď01 was the most recent Leinster junior win.
Ollie Daly was over the team I think.

I have a team photo which I got from @gaanostalgia on twitter. I donít know how to upload an image on this, so hereís the link: https://twitter.com/gaanostalgia/status/581457691941441537
Wasnít a bad team.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Rossfan on December 09, 2017, 11:00:54 AM
Has anyone ever seen a sad face in the team photos after winning an Inter or Junior Final?
Or a Ring, Rackard etc?
Jasus the Ros team photo with the Nicky in 2015 would have made a great ad for toothpaste.
On a point of order Soccer Cup competitions are good fun lotteries, their Leagues are the serious business and decide the Champions.
Our Leagues are just pre season tournaments - the Summer Provincials and Qualifiers and AI series are to find the CHAMPIONS.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: BennyHarp on December 09, 2017, 03:28:42 PM
Roscommon among others were graded Junior in the 1930s.
Our second AI was the Junior in 1940 which was our first team.
We then went up to Senior with some success.

You are now clutching at straws. Roscommon applied to be graded at Junior level at the 1938 Connacht Convention, following the move made by Leitrim the previous year. This is/was a move open to any team (most recently a right exercised by Kilkenny). Roscommon played Junior in 1938, '39 (losing the home final to Dublin) and '40 when they won the competition. The following year Ros lost by single point to Galway in the Connacht Final (a Galway team that lost three All Ireland Senior Finals). It is arguable that Roscommon would have held their own in the Senior Championships of '39 & 40 against a declining and internally divided Mayo and an emerging Galway.

At any rate a team can still apply to be regraded to Junior but despite their chances of winning being improved there is no rush to do so. At club level a club can apply to be regraded downwards at any time. That rarely happens either. My own club haven't won a senior club title in almost 50 years. In that time we played Intermediate for two years when Senior Championship status depended on Senior League status. In all that time nobody in the club would dare suggest dropping to Intermediate even if it meant winning. Our local Secondary School won a Hogan Cup in 1977 and an All-Ireland B title in 1996 (Teams knocked out in early round of A were eligible to play B). Anybody in any of the 5 or 6 clubs that contributed to the 1977 team can name that team. Only the families of the 1996 team remember who was on that team.

There is no desire to play in secondary competitions. Players are ambitious. If the players in the counties due to play in the new second tier hurling championship (Joe McDonagh Cup) were given the option of playing in that competition or the Senior Hurling Championship they would vote en-bloc for the upper grade.

Face facts. Secondary competitions are a Ponzi Scheme sold to the gullible. They allow the "Elite" to play more "high-profile" games, hog publicity and sponsors. They undermine the great value of representing your school/club/county even against outrageous odds. It's a continuation of the "everyone gets a medal" Irish dancing mentality that has a place up to U-14 grade.

But in a 3 tier championship every team is 2 seasons max away from senior football. This nonsense about selling to the gullible is paranoia at its best. All teams will have a pathway to senior football if they can progress and improve. For a team like Carlow, steady progress through the divisions would be a much better way to progress than putting in a decent performance one week then get walloped by the Dubs the next and they are gone. Playing competitive football into August can do no harm.

Go to your own county board and tell them that you want to implement the current inter county structure to the club championship. They laugh you out of the room.
Title: Re: the future of the Intercounty game
Post by: Gmac on December 09, 2017, 04:28:45 PM
Has anyone ever seen a sad face in the team photos after winning an Inter or Junior Final?
Or a Ring, Rackard etc?
Jasus the Ros team photo with the Nicky in 2015 would have made a great ad for toothpaste.
On a point of order Soccer Cup competitions are good fun lotteries, their Leagues are the serious business and decide the Champions.
Our Leagues are just pre season tournaments - the Summer Provincials and Qualifiers and AI series are to find the CHAMPIONS.
if u left all counties at senior level but current league structures determine the winners of all leagues + promotion and relegation and no county would be seen as playing junior or intermediate if that creates a problem, the gaa could schedule a triple header of games in Crome park on Sunday's with teams from all divisions playing , if people still want all Ireland Sunday maybe top 2 in div 1 could play