America`s Gun Culture

Started by Wildweasel74, December 14, 2012, 06:00:57 PM

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AZOffaly

I'm not vehemently anti guns. I'm vehemently anyone else owning one :)

Nah, I lived over there, never wanted one, nor went about getting one. And this was Arizona!

muppet

At the centre of this debate we seem to have, among others, two key arguments:

1) Guns at home risk shootings at home, e.g. young children find the gun.

2) I need a gun because of the threat of burglary or intruders.

Iceman has shown that he has taken serious measures to safeguard against 1) above that probably go well beyond what most people in the US do, which is fair enough.

But can you successfully argue that you can drastically reduce the risk of 1) but not be able to reduce the risk of 2)? The gun is surely a last resort against intruders, but why do many Americans feel the need to jump to the last resort on 2), without apparently considering the last resort on 1) - which for me is getting rid of the gun at home?

Is it that the risk of the guns falling into the wrong hands or used inappropriately is underestimated, while the risk of intruders causing serious harm is overestimated? Location also probably has a role to play in weighing up this dilemma.
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AZOffaly

The other factor is, it's all very well to have a gun. Could you use it? Could you shoot another human being?I'm not sure anyone can answer that unless you're in that situation, and if you have a gun, and can't do it, then you are probably more in danger than if you didn't have one at all.

I don't know what I would do. I know I'd do anything to protect my family, but would I shoot someone that just 'broke in'?

muppet

Quote from: AZOffaly on October 08, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
The other factor is, it's all very well to have a gun. Could you use it? Could you shoot another human being?I'm not sure anyone can answer that unless you're in that situation, and if you have a gun, and can't do it, then you are probably more in danger than if you didn't have one at all.

I don't know what I would do. I know I'd do anything to protect my family, but would I shoot someone that just 'broke in'?

Good question. In this case pulling a gun and not using it could be disastrous. If the 'bad guy' has a gun he will almost definitely shoot and if he doesn't, he will simply take yours.
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JoG2

Quote from: magpie seanie on October 08, 2015, 03:01:21 PM
I find this hard to reconcile at times. I'm vehemently anti guns. I don't think anyone should have a gun. However, if I lived in the US with my wife and two girls I think I'd have a gun.

I don't understand this. Why? I lived over through for nearly a year, and getting a gun never entered into my thinking.

The Iceman

Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet.
What if they were coming for your family? Would you let them take them? You've got guns, you're here for my daughter  -aye go on ahead lads.  I don't see the point of not being ready. Again I don't think I will ever have to use the gun, I pray I don't. But I don't think I will ever get in a fist fight again but continue to stay relatively sharp just in case.
I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong and morally straight

muppet

Quote from: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet.
What if they were coming for your family? Would you let them take them? You've got guns, you're here for my daughter  -aye go on ahead lads.  I don't see the point of not being ready. Again I don't think I will ever have to use the gun, I pray I don't. But I don't think I will ever get in a fist fight again but continue to stay relatively sharp just in case.

Why would anyone come for your family?
MWWSI 2017

gallsman

This is why I was asking about the fear element. Previously you spoke of burglary, now you talk of someone coming for your family.

How much crime is people opportunistically breaking into houses in search of potential victims to rape or murder? Very, very little I imagine.

screenexile

Quote from: muppet on October 08, 2015, 03:53:37 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on October 08, 2015, 03:51:39 PM
Quote from: JoG2 on October 08, 2015, 09:42:47 AM
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 09:15:40 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on October 08, 2015, 06:57:26 AM

Maybe Im naive in thinking that (probably) but I live in a city which has its own police force so I would imagine that they would be able react alot faster than anything Iceman would have.


i think that is being a little naive... im not saying i agree or dont agree with having a gun in the house but if you did, and you were in Icemans position, heard someone breaking in, in the middle of the night, im pretty sure the Iceman would have his gun out before the police would arrive!
Iceman i think you should put your user name on the letter box or something, i wouldnt fancy robbing someone called "the Iceman"! sounds like an assassin!!  ;D

on a serious note though, it goes back to the American mentality. i am absolutely sure Iceman and many many others are responsible with their guns here, we seem to have a normal down to earth mentality here when it comes to that kind of thing, except for a few scumbags, which is inevitable everywhere unfortunately.
im also hearing of more burglaries a bit closer to home in the last few years, not just stealing your car or even sneaking in and stealing your telly or whatever and sneaking out, but rather bursting into your house and holding you at gun point. look at those oxygen thieves in Tipperary.... http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/1001/731682-tipperary-burglary-sentence/

but all in all thankfully we live in a decent society. i hope its not gradually starting to change...

I've asked before, but would it not be far better to let the thieves take what they want without having a friggin shoot out in the house?! Your house insurance will cover the cost and, more importantly,  you wont have shot anyone or anyone in the house wont have taken a bullet.
What if they were coming for your family? Would you let them take them? You've got guns, you're here for my daughter  -aye go on ahead lads.  I don't see the point of not being ready. Again I don't think I will ever have to use the gun, I pray I don't. But I don't think I will ever get in a fist fight again but continue to stay relatively sharp just in case.

Why would anyone come for your family?

That's where I struggle. . . what have you done on someone that they're going to kidnap your family? Sick people exist throughout the world but I don't have a constant fear of someone coming for my wife or daughter. Is it NRA/FOX NEWS propaganda that puts this fear into people in America?

I'm not having a go Iceman but if you have the guns locked away in a bedside cabinet how are you quickly going to get to that when a burglar jumps through the window?!

Hunting fair enough not that I agree with it but you need a gun for it and that's fair enough, the 'protection' thing I don't get unless you have some serious cash around the place I can't see this being a real reason to own a gun. None of this explains the assault rifles/ak's all over the country!!

muppet

Add in the fact that 99% of us would be complete novices in a shootout.

Even well-trained cops can make a poor decision under extreme duress. What hope would we have of getting any crucial decisions right in that scenario?
MWWSI 2017

finbar o tool

i personally dont feel i need a gun for protection, but, im pretty sure that family in Tipp didnt do anything to those scumbags that entered their home... but they still had to go through that...

look, there is absolutely no point talking about Ireland in this equation really, we dont have a gun problem or gun law problem, or a strange unhealthy mentality towards guns. but the majority of folk in the 'US of A' really do!
An amateur requires a personal commitment that money cannot buy

AZOffaly

Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 04:06:51 PM
i personally dont feel i need a gun for protection, but, im pretty sure that family in Tipp didnt do anything to those scumbags that entered their home... but they still had to go through that...

look, there is absolutely no point talking about Ireland in this equation really, we dont have a gun problem or gun law problem, or a strange unhealthy mentality towards guns. but the majority of folk in the 'US of A' really do!

Interesting parallel though. If the father had a gun, and started shooting or trying to threaten to shoot, I wonder would the outcome have been much more tragic?

muppet

#417
Quote from: finbar o tool on October 08, 2015, 04:06:51 PM
i personally dont feel i need a gun for protection, but, im pretty sure that family in Tipp didnt do anything to those scumbags that entered their home... but they still had to go through that...

look, there is absolutely no point talking about Ireland in this equation really, we dont have a gun problem or gun law problem, or a strange unhealthy mentality towards guns. but the majority of folk in the 'US of A' really do!

They did nothing, according to the article the scumbags had duff info.

However if the family had pulled a gun, either some of the criminals, or some of the family would be now dead. It would be hard to calculate the odds either way, but arguably the family members would have been in more danger with a gun present.

Shooting the 'bad 'guy' seem to be a massively powerful narrative in the US, but at what risk to loved ones?

Edit: Just saw Az's post which made much the same point.
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finbar o tool

i stand to be corrected but i think the father would have been within his rights to blow the heads off these f**kers.
the family would probably end up being even more traumatized from that though...
An amateur requires a personal commitment that money cannot buy

easytiger95

The self defence plank is central to the gun rights argument - here's a couple of articles

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCcQFjABahUKEwjrpbu6krPIAhXIVRQKHQHhAGU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bloomberg.com%2Fbw%2Farticles%2F2012-12-27%2Fhow-often-do-we-use-guns-in-self-defense&usg=AFQjCNFLHQcokNf-9cpZNDGcUFkcaRDJWg

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/04/15/defensive-gun-use/

Myself, I think that statistically someone like Iceman is far less likely than he thinks to actually encounter violent crime within his home - however, paradoxically, the availability and usage of firearms makes the statistically unusual occurrences of such crimes more lethal than they would be in other nations - thus giving guys like Iceman plenty to worry about it.

Just on another point about amnesty not working - they certainly didn't think it was going to work in Australia, but is succeeded beyond their most optimistic estimations.

This is still the funniest take I've seen on a very grim subject

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLOKWcH1zBl2kfnCwyyZWk5MW28lgaNa7L