'De Valera was a British spy'

[Denn Forever]

I don't care.  I was going to say Who Cares but then again a lot of people do.

50 years from now it will be Gerry Adams was a british spy.

[Main Street]

The story is plausible but as far as i can see the evidence is all circumstantial

These historical events and people have already been forensically studied and documentation has been researched to the nth degree by very credible and learned historians.
Wild interpretations of these events does not qualify to be called circumstantial evidence.
To quote
Circumstantial evidence is direct evidence of a fact which reasonably infers the existence or nonexistence of another fact.

Our amateur historian infers without reasonability in order to suggest the existence of a belief.

[Zapatista]

So the Brit's give Collins guns to turn them on Dev who was working for the Brits so that Dev would then kill Collins to protect partition?

That does sound like something they would do.

[maddog]

This is a reply i received on this issue from a professor of Irish history.


"Sounds like he's just copied Tim Pat Coogan's 'dish the dirt' biography – Coogan basically fell out with the de Valeras when he was editor of the Irish Press (the family paper) and has spent the rest of his life doing his best to blacken his name.

Interesting to claim that Dev abandoned his post when the surrender came, when there is a photograph of him leading his troops to captivity, alongside a British officer – who fifty years later (in 1966) returned the binoculars that de Valera had given to him at the moment of that surrender. What happened is that de Valera took the British army cadet with him when he left his position to offer his surrender – not deserting his post, but taking the most dangerous step for anyone in that position to take, ie putting himself in the line of fire of any trigger-happy Tommy. Also worthwhile bearing in mind the Mount Street detachment was under de Valera's control.

Given that none of those at Bolands Mills (or pretty much any of the other posts) slept for seven nights straight, and were being shot at pretty much the whole time, it would be interesting to see if Mr Turi has ever found himself in a similar situation.

Interesting that he claims Dev was never tried when 2 British officers (including the cadet) testified at his trial. Also interesting is that his death sentence was commuted to life imprisonment, and he was never an internee.

The idea that Dev was actively trying to help the British when in the States is just too ludicrous to even comment on.

It would be a novel legal development to try a dead person – now that's a speech from the dock I'd love to hear."

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

This is a reply i received on this issue from a professor of Irish history.

Diarmaid Ferriter perchance?

[Declan]

Diarmaid Ferriter perchance

My thoughts as well

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Aye Declan, himself and Tim Pat have been having a right old barney over Dev's legacy in recent years, and if this professor is accusing this particular author of being nothing more than a parrot for TP's Dev biog, then I'd say it's fair bet *.


* But wrong, apparently! 

[maddog]

This is a reply i received on this issue from a professor of Irish history.

Diarmaid Ferriter perchance?

No.

[Zapatista]

No.

Swerve ball

[Main Street]

I'd disagree with the mysterious Irish history professor.

The amateur historian looks to have copied the style and some of the content documented in Tim Pat's book but has embellished the interpretations of the events way beyond the boundaries of even Tim Pats vendetta laden reasonings

[Evil Genius]

Although I've often heard it claimed that Dev was a coward at Boland's Mill etc, I've no real idea how true that is.

But I cannot believe that he spied for the British thereafter, otherwise Churchill would have had too firm a hold on him in 1939, when eg we needed the Treaty Ports* so desperately. And if Churchill had you by the balls, he was never slow in squeezing tight!


* - Indeed, Churchill was one of a small number of MP's who spoke out in the Commons at the time of the Ports handover of the potential dangers which this posed to the UK's security (i.e. in 1938, before War with Germany had even been declared). 

[dillinger]

50 years from now it will be Gerry Adams was a british spy.
[/quote]

Why is he not? Seems a lot of the Shinners are

[ONeill]

What a shower a hoors we laud in this country.

Walk into a house in Ardboe 15 years ago and you'd have hanging on the wall:

Dev (tout)
The Pope (don't start me)
Guinness logo (the hoor hated Ireland, the Irish and taigs)
JFK (some boy)

At least now they worship Gods like Frank McGuigan and Tom from Big Brother.

[orangeman]

How De Valera asked UK to smear IRA chief Sean RussellBy Mike Thomson

Presenter, Document, Radio 4

Broadgate in Coventry was bombed by the IRA in August 1939 Newly released documents suggest that the man who helped found the Irish Free State, Eamon de Valera, covertly co-operated with Britain to crush the IRA.

The papers reveal that De Valera, whose entire cabinet in the late 1930s were former IRA members, asked London to help smear the organisation's chief of staff as a communist agent.

Tensions came to a head when the IRA began bombing Britain in early 1939.

Under what was called the Sabotage or S-Plan, British cities including London, Manchester, Birmingham and Coventry were targeted by IRA explosive teams.

In one attack on Coventry five people died and 70 more were injured.

'Old enemy'

Dublin, which is recorded as being "seriously disturbed" by the IRA bombings, reacted even more forcefully than London.

Continue reading the main story
Eamon de Valera

Born in 1882 in New York and sent to live in Ireland aged two, after death of his father
Played leading role in 1916 Easter Rising against Britain, for which he was imprisoned
Left Sinn Fein in 1926 to set up Fianna Fail party
Head of government from 1932 to 1948 - and for two more stints in the 1950s
Oversaw Ireland's policy of neutrality in WWII
De Valera's government regarded IRA attacks against Britain as a threat to the Irish state itself.

With war looking likely, De Valera was determined that Ireland should remain neutral.

He knew that a hard rump of Republicans would never countenance being allied to the "old enemy" Britain, and such an alliance could push Ireland into another bloody civil war.

But he also knew that, if his country was seen as a threat, London might decide to invade.

It seems hard to believe that this was the same militant Republican who had been at the forefront of the Easter Rising against British rule in 1916.

After becoming prime minister of the Irish Free State, he outlawed the IRA in 1936, and his commitment to pursuing Irish unification by constitutional means led him to part company with many of his former comrades-in-arms.

Yet few would have guessed that he would soon be accepting British help to crush them.

Fear of 'martyrs'

In 1939, as the documents show, De Valera's government asked for assistance from London in smearing IRA chief of staff Sean Russell as a communist agent:

Continue reading the main story
Document

Newly released British secret memo
"It is believed that some 10 or 12 years ago, he was in Soviet pay as an agitator; If there is any information which could be made available to show that this was the case, or that at the present time he is in receipt of pay from foreign sources, it would be of the greatest possible assistance to the Dublin authorities in dealing with him since it would practically eliminate the risk of him being treated as a patriotic martyr...."

Dublin also called on London to consult them on sentences imposed on IRA members convicted of the bombings in Britain.

De Valera was worried that those executed at British hands might become martyrs at home. But he had no such qualms over those convicted of bombings in Ireland.

In fact, De Valera's government executed more IRA members than Britain and even borrowed the UK's most famous executioner, Albert Pierrepoint, to hang one of them.

During the war, Dublin went on to intern more than 1,500 IRA suspects, and several died while on hunger strike in Irish jails.

Help from Hitler

As a result, the IRA began to look to Nazi Germany for help.

Not long after the first bombs had gone off in Britain, Sean Russell and IRA head of explosives Jim O'Donovan, went to Berlin for a meeting with German military intelligence, the Abwehr.


Jim O'Donovan made several trips to Germany At that point, Hitler refused to fund their S-Plan bombing campaign because of fears of provoking conflict with Britain. But, once war had broken out, he did agree to send money, transmitters and spies to Ireland.

Many of the latter proved somewhat inept.

In July 1940, three German spies - one of them an Indian national - capsized before landing in Ireland.

Two of them could not speak English and the Indian agent stood out in rural Ireland. After finally making it ashore, one asked a policeman if they were anywhere near Cork.

All three were promptly arrested.

Yet despite all this, Jim O'Donovan was falling under Hitler's spell. In fact, during the early years of the war, he became increasingly interested in Nazi ideology and visited Germany three times.

Speaking for the first time about his father's work with the Nazis, Gerard O'Donovan - who was a young boy during the conflict - told me how he still remembers one regular wartime visitor to their home in Dublin:

"There was a room off the dining room where there was a radio transmitter. A man used to come every Saturday and send messages to Germany on that radio... and we children used to call (him) Mr Saturday Night."

Jim O'Donovan died in 1979 without, according to those who knew him, any regrets about his involvement with the Nazis.

Sean Russell, who cared little for Nazi ideology, died aboard a German U-boat bound for Ireland in August 1940.

'Pristine' image

The S-Plan was ultimately a failure.

Continue reading the main story
"
Start Quote
What, one wonders, might the consequences have been for Eamon De Valera, had his people known then what has come out now? "
End Quote After just over a year, it ground to a halt, largely due to a string of botched attacks, lack of funds and the crackdowns against the IRA in London and Dublin.

Some in Ireland may well have suspected at that time that their government was secretly co-operating closely with Britain, a country many still considered their enemy.

Yet only now can such suspicions be confirmed.

What, one wonders, might the consequences have been for Eamon De Valera, had his people known then what has come out now?

Donnacha Obeachain is a lecturer in Politics at Dublin City University and the author of a book on Fianna Fail and Irish Republicanism:

"It certainly would have undermined De Valera's image of being the pristine Republican leader who had heroically and unstintingly challenged the British. I think it would have been difficult for him to present that image, and it's something that he treasured.

"The publicity of such co-operation would be very detrimental to De Valera's image and therefore his electoral prospects."

As it was, Prime Minister (Taoiseach) Eamon de Valera continued a long and successful career in Irish politics.

He won eight elections over the period of the 1930s, 40s and 50s and ended his career as president of Ireland between 1959 and 1973, when - at the age of 90 - he was the oldest head of state in the world.

As for the IRA, it was a spent force for the next 20 years until it came back with another bombing campaign - this time targeted at Northern Ireland.