UK v Russia

[johnnycool]

Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.

He's a fallow imitation of Stalin. He's not really interesting even as a curio. Russia had a chance for a new beginning and chose a KGB strongman. When the world goes renewable they are so fûcked it isn't funny. And few will be all that upset about it.

If he was smart he would have used the money to develop other industries and modernise Russia as an open society that people want to do business with rather than feel compelled to do business with. Instead he enriched himself and brought about the era of the oligarch.

I always thought it was Boris Yeltsin who allowed the carve up of the old state industries which created the oligarchs who then bought up half London and fund the Tory Party?

[sid waddell]

Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation

Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic

On this thread we've had copious amounts of whataboutery, deflection, sarcasm and excuse making for Russia. False equivalence, the tool of the reality denier, has, predictably, been invoked more than once.

We've been asked "what is the Brits' end game?"

Not "what is Russia's end game?", which is a far, far more pertinent question.

And all the horrid shit Putin has got up to over the years is simply ignored by yourself and others.

All this amounts to defence of Russia, in other words. These are the exact tactics the Russians themselves use. It's almost like yourself and some other posters had read a list of Russian talking points and decided to try and keep the conversation limited to such.

So you'll forgive me if I think it's rather obvious that some people's true motives are not what they say they are.

[Hardy]

Putting the shinners in the shade - vote very, very, very often:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dicJ5nli3JA&t=5m51s

[sid waddell]

Do you not think it's got to the stage now though where Putin is fed up with the UK and Uncle Sam's hypocrisy? I find him as intriguing a man as there is in the world or has been in the world for the past 40 years. He certainly is a dictator and has committed serious crimes but it can't be denied how interesting he is.

He's a fallow imitation of Stalin. He's not really interesting even as a curio. Russia had a chance for a new beginning and chose a KGB strongman. When the world goes renewable they are so fûcked it isn't funny. And few will be all that upset about it.

If he was smart he would have used the money to develop other industries and modernise Russia as an open society that people want to do business with rather than feel compelled to do business with. Instead he enriched himself and brought about the era of the oligarch.

I always thought it was Boris Yeltsin who allowed the carve up of the old state industries which created the oligarchs who then bought up half London and fund the Tory Party?

The oligarchs came about through the crazy "Washington Consensus" programme imposed on Russia after the fall of the USSR.

Basically what happened was that "the sharpest elbows" (that's a euphemism) engaged in all sorts of jiggery pokery (again a euphemism), both financial and otherwise, to buy up former state industries for a song. Corruption and violence was rampant from the start.

When Putin came to power he made a big play of deciding to go after the original oligarchs because he knew this would be popular with the people. But he merely replaced them with his own cronies, and creamed off the profits for them, but mainly for himself.

The original oligarchs either fled the country and laundered their money to England or elsewhere, or cut Putin in on their riches if they wanted to stay onside with him.

If you were "offside" with him, as Berezovsky was, you had a big problem. Berezovsky, as well as a huge amount of his circle in England, are now dead. This is not a coincidence.

[Arthur_Friend]

Aye dead on Sid. You read a book and now you're an expert on everything Russia.

"Basically what happened was..." 

[screenexile]

Aye dead on Sid. You read a book and now you're an expert on everything Russia.

"Basically what happened was..." 

He's not wrong that actually did happen!!

Get a watch of this if you have the time . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VkRXLDnxNKw&t=634s

[bennydorano]

Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation

Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic

On this thread we've had copious amounts of whataboutery, deflection, sarcasm and excuse making for Russia. False equivalence, the tool of the reality denier, has, predictably, been invoked more than once.

We've been asked "what is the Brits' end game?"

Not "what is Russia's end game?", which is a far, far more pertinent question.

And all the horrid shit Putin has got up to over the years is simply ignored by yourself and others.

All this amounts to defence of Russia, in other words. These are the exact tactics the Russians themselves use. It's almost like yourself and some other posters had read a list of Russian talking points and decided to try and keep the conversation limited to such.

So you'll forgive me if I think it's rather obvious that some people's true motives are not what they say they are.

I framed the opening post very deliberately to avoid a Putin / Russia shit fest, I would have though it was not that hard to grasp, it's you who has went off down a rabbit hole. Read what's written and not what you think is written might be a good starting point.

[sid waddell]

Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation

Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic

On this thread we've had copious amounts of whataboutery, deflection, sarcasm and excuse making for Russia. False equivalence, the tool of the reality denier, has, predictably, been invoked more than once.

We've been asked "what is the Brits' end game?"

Not "what is Russia's end game?", which is a far, far more pertinent question.

And all the horrid shit Putin has got up to over the years is simply ignored by yourself and others.

All this amounts to defence of Russia, in other words. These are the exact tactics the Russians themselves use. It's almost like yourself and some other posters had read a list of Russian talking points and decided to try and keep the conversation limited to such.

So you'll forgive me if I think it's rather obvious that some people's true motives are not what they say they are.

I framed the opening post very deliberately to avoid a Putin / Russia shit fest, I would have though it was not that hard to grasp, it's you who has went off down a rabbit hole. Read what's written and not what you think is written might be a good starting point.

You don't get to decide what's discussed and what's not in order to twist a debate to favour one side.

You can't have a discussion in relation to anything involving the Russian regime and not talk about the murderous, corrupt, tyrannical nature of that regime.

That would be a bit like having a debate about the merits of Lance Armstrong's cycling career but saying that any discussion of his doping is off-limits.

[AQMP]

I notice that the police have given very little info in how their investigation is going.  Apart from "It was Russia wot done it" from a number of sources there is virtually no information in the public domain about the key questions (and I accept this is probably a very complex case) e.g.

When was the nerve agent administered?
Where was it administered?
How was it administered?
Who administered it?

[sid waddell]

Given that there seem to be so many people who prefer to believe the Russian line on this, and we all know the Russians are very trustworthy, I'd be very interested to hear some conspiracy theories about whodunnit.

[Syferus]

Thank God there are good moral upstanding people in politics outside if Russia

https://www.channel4.com/news/cambridge-analytica-revealed-trumps-election-consultants-filmed-saying-they-use-bribes-and-sex-workers-to-entrap-politicians-investigation

Cambridge Analytica were used by Trump, who is used by Putin, and the campaigners for Brexit, which benefits Putin.

It's another branch of the internet-driven mass propaganda approach that the Russians specialise in.

Putin kidnapped Shergar too I heard. Well Trump did but Putin told him to. A spook in MI5 told me.

A rather pathetic response.

Putin is as white as the snow in Siberia if you're to believe some posters here.

This discussion about Russia is proving a very interesting thought experiment, I must say.

Point out where anyone 9n this thread said or inferred he was white as snow. You are just making that up. That's pathetic

On this thread we've had copious amounts of whataboutery, deflection, sarcasm and excuse making for Russia. False equivalence, the tool of the reality denier, has, predictably, been invoked more than once.

We've been asked "what is the Brits' end game?"

Not "what is Russia's end game?", which is a far, far more pertinent question.

And all the horrid shit Putin has got up to over the years is simply ignored by yourself and others.

All this amounts to defence of Russia, in other words. These are the exact tactics the Russians themselves use. It's almost like yourself and some other posters had read a list of Russian talking points and decided to try and keep the conversation limited to such.

you'll forgive me if I think it's rather obvious that some people's true motives are not what they say they are.

I framed the opening post very deliberately to avoid a Putin / Russia shit fest, I would have though it was not that hard to grasp, it's you who has went off down a rabbit hole. Read what's written and not what you think is written might be a good starting point.

You seem to be disappointed this thread didn't devolve into the usual Brit-bashing that is common here. You need to pick your punches and when Russia uses chemical weapons to assassinate a British citizens you need to be less tone-deaf than to make this type of thread. Russia is the issue and the star of this show.

[Esmarelda]

Now you know how the Crimeans felt benny.

Could've been an interesting thread but these things happen.

[red hander]

The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode

[Syferus]

The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode

Do you have a point?

[red hander]

The guy was a traitor. I feel sorry for his daughter, but he knew what game he was in. If this was a British defector in Moscow, responsible for the deaths/ exposure of British agents in Russia, and he was taken out by MI6, the Sun and Mail would be in total jubilation mode

Do you have a point?

Yeah, f**k him