Messages

I'm off for a lie-down.

Kilmacud 2nd best all over the pitch in that half. Be very surprised if Glen don't see this out.

Elbow makes contact with the chin there - be lucky if he avoids a red

Perfect day for off-the-ball shenanigans

Tg4 very innovative with the first live-action spot the ball competition.

More on the current state of play in Cork with Pairc Ui Chaoimh.

Very tough to shake the notion tha the odds are high Casement has a good chance of turning out similarly.

The issue for the GAA is that if it does turn out similar it will likely affect all of the Ulster counties negatively instead of just one county as in Cork's case.

Fogarty Forum: Páirc Uí Chaoimh strife haunts Cork
Cork GAA do a decent job of acting like a highly functional organisation but so many of their waking hours are occupied with this huge debt.
Fogarty Forum: Páirc Uí Chaoimh strife haunts Cork

TUE, 12 DEC, 2023 - 07:20
JOHN FOGARTY

It is only when you catalogue the inconveniences the redevelopment of Páirc Uí Chaoimh and servicing its debt has caused Cork teams that the full picture forms.

We'll get to the €30 million-plus albatross that is going to hang around the neck of the sport in the county for the next quarter of a century in a minute. For now, let's list how it has otherwise discommoded players and supporters.

In February 2019, less than two years after the stadium's reopening, the venue's playing surface cut up so badly during a league double-header that it was closed for the remainder of the league. Urgent work on it meant Cork's Super 8 game against Roscommon that July, which they lost, was moved to Páirc Uí Rinn.

Last year, Cork's hurlers were forced to play their Munster SHC round-robin game against Clare in Thurles, a game they lost, because of Ed Sheeran concerts in Páirc Uí Chaoimh. Following weeks of brinksmanship between the Cork players, board and Munster GAA who announced the game would be staged in Killarney, the provincial SFC semi-final against Kerry, which was also pushed out of the Ballintemple stadium because of the gigs, was played in Páirc Uí Rinn.

Next year, Cork's senior footballers will have to play their Sam Maguire/Tailteann Cup round-robin game in Páirc Uí Rinn as the playing surface will not be ready following the Bruce Springsteen concert.
Cork also requested their Munster SHC game against Limerick be arranged for a Saturday evening to allow for the preparations ahead of that May 16 gig, which may have been a contributory factor to the game being shown on GAAGO.

Cork GAA do a decent job of acting like a highly functional organisation and in arranging the 14,000-plus games a year they certainly are. Nevertheless, so many of their waking hours are occupied with this debt, a burden that boots down the road any hope of establishing a long overdue centre of excellence.

They, at least former county board leaders, can't say they weren't warned. Information obtained by the "Irish Examiner" reveals the business plan and Cost Benefit Analysis commissioned by the county board for the stadium to obtain its €30m grant from the Government were dismissed by the then Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport on two occasions.

In March 2015, the department wrote to the Cork County Board stating the CBA "unfortunately falls a good deal short of what of what is required of a CBA as per the Public Spending Code (PSC)".

Three months later, updated versions of the two documents were submitted but again rejected "as "it is not a recognisable cost benefit analysis" and "in conjunction with the lack of other elements that comprise a Business Case, cannot be considered to be in compliance with the Public Spending Code".

The department stated they were concerned about the board's optimism regarding demand projections for match attendances, concert attendances, conference usage and tourism benefits attached to the new stadium.

In August, accompanied by a letter from then GAA director general Páraic Duffy, a new business plan and CBA was issued and approved later that year. Cork stated they were "strictly managing costs" and claimed they could earn €500,000 per annum in naming rights.

Over six years after reopening and that hasn't been realised and there is no question Páirc Ui Chaoimh has been underutilised. It should be hosting more Munster SHC finals. The most modern of all 20,000-plus capacity stadiums in the country never mind the province, there is stark contrast between it and the fading allure of FBD Semple Stadium and TUS Gaelic Grounds.

Cork canvassed intensely but failed to bring the event to the venue this past year. Convincing the GAA to bring All-Ireland quarter-finals there has also proven a challenge, the last without crowd restrictions being the 2018 Clare-Wexford game.

Páirc Uí Chaoimh has become a bogeyman story in the GAA, a constant reminder to national GAA officials of what can happen when counties produce financial projections that are "overly ambitious", as GAA director general Tom Ryan said of Páirc Uí Chaoimh in 2019.

Two years earlier, Cork were saying otherwise about themselves when they sought the €30m Government funding. "CCB has a track record of prudent financial management of their affairs and is confident of being able to adequately manage both the funding and expenditure aspects of the project, as well as its ongoing operation."

As Cork GAA chief executive Kevin O'Donovan, who was appointed in December 2018, said in September, the county hopes to be free of its stadium debt by 2048, 31 years after it reopened following the redevelopment.

Ahead of convention this evening, he returned from the One Cork Worldwide roadshow in the US last week as efforts to fundraise among the diaspora are stepped up. The monies will go towards teams but you can't help feeling it wouldn't be so necessary if Cork weren't mortgaged to their necks.

Cork GAA facing €5 million cashflow crisis unless Páirc operations 'massively' improve
Cork secretary Kevin O'Donovan described the county's cash flow problem as 'stark'.


TUE, 12 DEC, 2023 - 22:15
EOGHAN CORMICAN

Unless there is a "massive improvement" in the operation of Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Cork GAA is facing a €5 million cashflow crisis over the next five years.

At the Cork convention on Tuesday evening, Freemount delegate John O'Flynn drew attention to the "hidden liability" of advance income totalling €4.8m.

O'Flynn explained that the figure relates primarily to Páirc Uí Chaoimh premium level seat sales over the past five years, money which has already been received and spent.

"That well is going to run dry very shortly because there aren't that many premium seats left (for sale). Our cashflow is going to dry up over the next five years," O'Flynn warned.

The Freemount delegate said the cashflow outlook is very worrying given the redeveloped Páirc Uí Chaoimh has turned a profit in only one year, 2022, and that owed to five concerts being staged at the venue.

"We have a stadium that is losing money," O'Flynn said of Páirc Uí Chaoimh's €2.688m loss in 2023.

"For all the years we have got stadium accounts, the stadium has lost money every single year except in 2022 when we had five concerts. I hope we have five concerts in the future, but that is unlikely.

"So we are really challenged for the stadium to even break even. The reality is that if we break even over the next five years, we are going to have a cash shortfall of about €4.8 million because we have already got that cash and it has already been spent.

"Until we sell Kilbarry, we are not going to reduce stadium debt (€31m) and we understand that. But there is a bigger issue coming down the track, it's the cashflow for the next four or five years.

"I would be really concerned that unless there is a massive improvement in the operation of the stadium or huge income from GAA activity, then we are going to struggle to meet that cash requirement over the next five years." There was no disputing of O'Flynn's worrying forecast from the executive top table.

Cork county board treasurer Diarmuid Gowan said that with only one concert in the pipeline for next year, it will make 2024 "very challenging".

Cork secretary Kevin O'Donovan described the county's cash flow problem as "stark".

He said concerts are "windfall" events and that the stadium needs to reach a "steady-state position" where it is not reliant on concerts to turn a profit.

O'Donovan remarked that soccer games at Páirc Uí Chaoimh are not off the table going forward.

"It is a very dangerous model for us to base a business plan on three concerts a year, which was done previously. They are windfalls. They come, they go.

"In terms of GAA activity, you know the challenges we face in getting major games to this stadium. All we hear is negativity. That is why we have to continue to explore other sports. Expect a debate on soccer coming too in the future. We have to consider those in the context of the stark financial picture we are in.

"Our discussion every day is cashflow, rather than profit and loss. Commercial partnerships could bring in €500,000 a year to this stadium in the very near future. We have two deals signed, we have another almost signed."

In his parting speech, outgoing county board chairman Marc Sheehan said the reticence of counties to travel to Páirc Uí Chaoimh needs to dissipate in 2024 and beyond.

"Let us not understate the significance of Páirc Uí Chaoimh. It remains the most modern GAA venue in Ireland despite seemingly incessant sniping from some quarters.

"Perhaps if some of the energy dispensed by others outside of the county with criticism of our stadium was channeled more meaningfully within their own units, it might result in better infrastructural outcomes for other units," said Sheehan.

Most recent state of play on the finances at PuC.

Cork's Páirc Uí Chaoimh debt remains stubbornly north of €30m

CEO report: 'Crippling energy costs, along with fixed charges such as rates present major obstacles. Current stadium debt levels, now resting at over €30m, continue to present a major challenge'

Cork's Páirc Uí Chaoimh debt remains stubbornly north of €30m


FRI, 08 DEC, 2023 - 12:43
JOHN FOGARTY


Cork GAA's Páirc Uí Chaoimh debt remains over €30 million primarily due to no concerts being staged at the venue this year.

As the county reported inter-county team expenditure rising to close to €2m in 2023, the inability to cut the stadium burden from last year remains a pressing and concerning matter.

In his annual report, Cork GAA chief executive Kevin O'Donovan confirmed a new 25-year loan agreement with Croke Park will assist in repaying its debt, which they hope will be fully clear by 2048. However, with only Bruce Springsteen confirmed to play at the Ballintemple venue in 2024, there remains difficulty.

The stadium this year made a comprehensive loss of €2.688m compared to a loss of €3.266m in 2022. Their bank loans as of September 30 were €20.181m, the terms of which are to be revisited in 2028. As of a result of the restructuring with Croke Park, Cork GAA must pay Central Council €636,000 per annum. At the end of September, the loan total was €7,926,438.

"The lack of concerts during 2023 had a major effect on income and with one concert on the books for 2024, returning to profitability will be a major goal," writes O'Donovan. "Crippling energy costs, along with fixed charges such as rates present major obstacles. Current stadium debt levels, now resting at over €30m, continue to present a major challenge.

"In this regard a major positive from 2023 was the signing of a 25-year loan agreement with CLG which will allow a more long-term sustainable approach to repaying debt.

"Also, the sale of Kilbarry will have a significant effect on current debt levels and it is hopeful that the delays in An Bord Pleanala can be overcome to allow a sale in early 2024.

"Finally, with a range of new and exciting commercial partnerships about to be announced at Páirc Uí Chaoimh, naming rights remains on the agenda and there are positive signs here also."

Excluding the stadium accounts, Cork County Board reported a surplus of €467,500. Income-wise, gate receipts from October 2022 to September 2023 were recorded at €1.461m compared to €1.584m in the previous 12-month period. There was a jump of almost €300,000 in gross commercial income to €1.231m, while gross draw income rose by €50,000 to €991,629.

Inter-county expenses came in at €1.995m, over €381,000 more than in 2022. Catering (€413,537), team travel (€421,863) and medical/strength and conditioning and facilities (€634,334) all increased from '22 while there was also a big rise in overnight costs, €143,580 from €38,633.

O'Donovan comments: "A significant jump in commercial income, along with increased returns from Rebels' Bounty contributed to increased revenues. The recent signing of a new 5-year deal with Sports Direct is a major positive in this regard, as is a long-term extension of our partnership with O'Neills.

"Meanwhile, the return from club gates remained high at close to €1.5m despite a slight drop due a seasonal adjustment in relation to final dates and costs associated with the new streaming model.

"Costs associated with inter-county teams increased from €1.614m to €1.995m which reflects the national trend. However, it is worth pointing out that this number includes all six county teams and unlike most counties, reflects an equal investment across both codes."

https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/business-of-sport/arid-41286145.html

7 people in the publicity shot.

Wha you reckon the spread would be for how many of them has a Dodgybox? 4?

I wouldn't be surprised if it was all seven.

I'm surprised that the CCPC anti-competitve thing isn't more of an issue.
I would have thought that the EU would have issues with it.

Like you have a state broadcaster that gets significant onging funds direct from the government and a sports organisation that gets significant ongoing state funding who have set up a 50/50 business together that puts a fair chunk of the games behind a paywall.

Also it would be interesting to know what would happen if another broadcaster took a case - Virgin already came out and said they were not even approached about bidding for the rights for these games.

Game on the HE YouTube channel tonight - throw-in at 7:30


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIewRfYwwss


The Division 1 final between UU and UCG is on tomorrow at 8

Unfortunately I didnt get to see the Trillick v Scotstown match but by all accounts it was a very good game.
I had a feeling Trillick would win it and had the potential to win Ulster under the radar, but not to be.

Glen probably deserved to win the first SF, that point at the end to win it was worth it alone.
I still think they are not playing as well as last year, but perhaps that will come yet. Glass has been underwhelming, but that's not to say he's playing badly, just doesn't seem to be hitting the same highs as last year.
I dont think that was a penalty tbh, and had it not been given Glen probably ran out comfortable enough winners. Hurson had a reasonably good game, though I though he was a little harsh on Glen in general, but for me he got the penalty wrong.

Glen and Scotstown will be an interesting game. Glen perhaps slight favourites, but not much between them. Scotstown keeper play could be the difference in the two teams.

Wattys may be pacing themselves. It's tournament football. They want to be ready for the final. They know how it works.

Precisely.

Although if the Glenties man held that last kick out and didnt cough it up to Glass (and then the winning point went over 5 secs later) it could be they in the final, not Glen.

Glen 'could' say get a few goals, get a run on Scotstown and win by 10. We'd all then be saying how they'd done well managing the earlier rounds and timed their peak at the right time. Scotstown could also get a run on Glen. It's Sport and over analysed. I remember a line ball in a game given the wrong way in a semi final that changed the game. There's so little in it.

In saying all that though Kilmacud are simply the team to beat. With the refs giving them penalties for fouls well outside the box when things get tight i Cant see them being stopped unless by a lucky drop in mad goal again or something like a few years ago

Never got this idea how teams could pace themselves for certain matches.  As you say, they could have been easily beat.  They hardly 'paced' themselves to come through by a point.  Some teams do however kick on and get that momentum after a couple of matches.

Yeah - unless there is a massive gap in standards with the opposition (which you're very unlikely to get in most provincial games) I think an entire team trying to pace over a course of games is extremely difficult, if not impossible.

Just start the season a bit later and let county players play more football with their clubs

What do the club players do for most of the year then? Are we really trying to cram club leagues and Championships from late July onwards?

The idea that club players should only play as much as county players are available is madness. There must be some form of competition not involving county players

I'd imagine it's the case that in 80% plus of all counties there is no link between league and championship, and county league can be run-off without the county players. If county players do become available (say lads returning from injury/lads outside the gameday 26 in need of some game time), it's no big deal if they do take part in a league game or two because the league position doesn't affect championship in any way.

I really can't understand from a scheduling/practicality point of view given the split-season is in place why any county would retain the link between league and championship.

[Tipp and Cork like most of the hurling counties have a healthy respect for football]

I must say I find it hilarious when hurling people get on their high horse about the state of hurling in Cavan and Fermanagh.

In Cork, Kilkenny, Limerick, Tipperary football has been treated like sh*t for years. Kilkenny don't even pretend to bother any more.

So I'll listen to arguments about what needs to be done for Cavan hurling when those counties treat football equally.

Did Tipp not play in an All Ireland semi final recently? Cork have won the All Ireland a good few times, Kilkenny compete in the lower end of football Junior I think, and have won it a few times, as for Limerick, they always had a decent team, maybe Waterford and Antrim would have been a better example of underperforming or underfunding ..

These things I wouldn't find hilarious, but each to their own

"Kilkenny compete in the Junior"..😂😂😂 Well - you really disproved my argument, I surrender.
In case you're not aware, that competition is for native born Americans and English players and is played semi-final/final on same weekend like some Féile blitz. That's the level of effort Kilkenny are putting into football. What about club football in Kilkenny? How is that organised pray tell?

I've lived in Tipperary and Cork. Both county boards completely dominated by hurling heads. Officials and coaches in both counties actively discourage dual players playing football. That's quite well known.

There are hardcore football clubs and people in both counties, especially in West Cork which is a heartland of football but the board has treated them like shit to varying degrees over the years. Cork should be a dominant football county but aren't. Why? I could fill a book with stories.
A few years ago at one state the Senior hurlers were training in a college gym in Cork city, paid for by board - while the footballers were forced to rent a warehouse in Fermoy and kit it out themselves. Look up how far Fermoy is from Castlehaven, Bantry or Rosscarbery where footballers were travelling from.
As soon as any talented dual player enters a Cork squad system they are told giving up football is one of the keys to progressing. The large traditional hurling Clubs like Midleton, Sars, Blackrock, Glen Rovers, Na Piarsaigh treat football with absolute spite. The irony being that the one true dual city club who don't - St Finbarrs - excel in both codes because of it.

So to be perfectly honest laughter is all I offer when I hear hurling heads bleating about Leitrim or Cavan hurling. If Hurling snobs ran the GAA and got their wish, football would be banned.
Hurling is a good sport and anyone who wants to play it should be given the opportunity to do so but what hurling people don't seem to get or want to admit though is that
north of the Dublin-Galway line - as Martin Fogarty outlined in many interviews since quitting his role with GAA - there is very little interest in hurling. Hurling is strong in the rich farming counties mainly. There are well documented historical reasons for this.

Not sure how you can draw a comparison between Tipp and Cork and Cavan and Louth. Tipp and Cork like most of the hurling counties have a healthy respect for football and the numbers participating is testament to that. Just because its not the holy grail as it is in Kerry should be no reason to have a cut at them. We all know the same is not true of Cavan and Louth where hurling is almost non existent. Maybe its just a Kerry thing, hurling somehow undermines their superiority complex.

The bolded bit is absolute nonsense. I've lived in Cork for a long time and been involved in GAA at club level.
As I outlined in previous posts, Football is looked on with disdain by the hurling dominated board in Cork (and Tipp) and any meagre success is in spite of this and down to a handful of hardcore football people largely from West or Northwest of Cork or other isolated pockets like Nemo Rangers in the city.

Anyone prepared to discuss how football is treated in Kilkenny? I won't hold my breath.

I wont disagree with you but honestly is their respect for football any worse than Kerrys respect for hurling?

You mentioned Kilkenny, appreciate only in relation to the other post, but that's why I mentioned it, there is literally no comparison between the two in this instance, maybe other football dominant counties with teams at the very bottom of the hurling levels, even though I appreciate that there's hurling mad people in those counties, they maybe don't get the backing they should, certainly not by the GAA, judging by the recent proposal.

Yeah with very little inside knowledge of how hurling is treated in Kerry - Kerry are a fairly well-established top-half intercounty hurling county and would seem to have a healthy club hurling scene with hurling seeming to growing (albeit slowly) in the county from what I've read/heard.  Obviously hurling would be 2nd in terms of priorities but I would have said no real comparison with how Kilkenny treat football.

Late tackle on K Hughes, no free?

He was low to the ground, was the barely contact and to be fair he hasn't given many easy frees

Both players looked genuinely poleaxed.
Who got the yellow card then?

Clear free. Late tackle.

He gave the Trillick lad a yelliw card.

Not sure why he didn't award the free.

I was thinking he possibly deemed it as a tackle after the ball was gone. I'd have given a free myself.
A lot of the time refs are reluctant to give frees when a player has been fouled but managed to get a good unimpeded shot away (as in this case)
Some weird GAA version of Double Jeopardy.

They wouldn't have pulled the plug. Legally the Ulster Council wouldn't have been able to proceed with them as the main contractor due to the massive increase in cost. There are strict regulations on procurement where public money is involved to ensure it's spent correctly. They would have signed a contract 10+ years ago at the cost of £70m. As the new cost is now more than 150% that contract can't legally be modified to suit the existing contractor.

Given the Ulster Council are the ones going to be signing the contract, I wonder what assurances/promises they have in place from the other bodies (specifically the UK government) who are providing funds, especially as regards going over budget and/or delays.

I'm not sure the GAA could take disciplinary action against individuals recording individual segments of matches such as scores or brawls even if there is a rule against it. People will post these videos as others will comment on them as can be seen from the reaction on this message board. In the incident recorded at least the adults and mentors entering the field of play appear to be making a genuine attempt to break up the fighting and restore order rather than getting involved. Unsavoury, lots of pushing and shoving, but would there be any more than 4 players who could be said to have struck someone.
Conor McKenna was sent off as third man in against Fermanagh so rule is or was on place. As Sky Sports say - The Eglish clubman was the third man into a melee, and referee Joe McQuillan gave him his marching orders
Hard for any referee to take proper action in these cases as so much going on maybe went for the standard red card for each team (or maybe even yellow)

I think there is a provision for disciplining members in the code of conduct under the "bringing the GAA into disrepute" but I think practically it would be extremely difficult.

"To contribute to a melee" is a Category 3 infraction (a red card offence)
This is what is usually used by refs if they want to give a red card to the third man in.
There is no reference to it being specifically "the third man in" anywhere in the rule book.
However like so many GAA rules this is so badly written as being close to meaningless.
Nowhere in the rule book is either a melee defined or how much you need to contribute to it, to be committing an offence.