Cookstown Incident

Started by oakleaflad, March 18, 2019, 12:43:55 AM

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trailer

Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 12:02:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:53:14 AM
Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 11:46:32 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 11:38:50 AM
It specifically transfers responsibility for crowd control onto a load of 16 and 17 year olds and their parents - who have precisely 0% responsibility for it.

It's 100% the responsibility of the owners of the hotel to put a safe system in place. The post specifically attempts to absolve the owners of any such responsibility.

London Underground users experience huge crowds queueing at ticket barriers and on train platforms at rush hour. It's only safe because people have manners. Start throwing your weight around  there or aggressively shoving people and you'll be lifted for it.

Of course everyone who finds themselves in a crowded area is individually responsible for their behaviour while in that area.

It only took a google search to show your post for what it was. Bullshit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcDqh8pUWlc
Don't believe all the propaganda you read on the internet. https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q

Is that the sum total of you evidence? One picture? Would you catch yourself on.

In general the lack of intelligence being displayed on this thread is worrying. Shows you what some people actually think in their heads. Scary. Some people really should seek immediate help from trained professionals.

five points

Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 12:30:44 PM

Is that the sum total of you evidence? One picture? Would you catch yourself on.

In general the lack of intelligence being displayed on this thread is worrying. Shows you what some people actually think in their heads. Scary. Some people really should seek immediate help from trained professionals.

Says the boy who cited a YouTube video as "proof" that there's no overcrowding on the Tube.  ::)

awideisneverasgood

#137
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429

Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.

I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.

general_lee

Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 10:32:04 AM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 09:43:55 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on March 20, 2019, 07:56:30 AM
Kid drinking would have a lot to do with it.  Gross negligence may be the cause or may not, but its as likely that the cause was those who were pushing the crowd forward for what they probably thought was a bit of craic.

Quote from: RedHand88 on March 20, 2019, 08:14:06 AM
There's alot of nervous teenagers knowing full well what they did, waiting on a knock on the door.

I don't understand this train of thought.... in fact I think its disgusting/disgraceful. This is the type of rhetoric that was coming from the Sun news paper after the hillsborough disaster:

'drunken fans'
'people pushing at the back new they where killing people'

These children have been let down .... end of.

I know Mickey McElhatton to be a nice man and will be heartbroken about this... in my opinion he has been let down by his door staff.
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

The incident was cause by lack of security at an event. see the young girls facebook post.... it was the children who where trying to save the lives of other children.

So your saying all children where drunk?? including the victims?
I'm not denying lack of security was a factor. Please re-read what I said, the ones pushing and shoving most likely had drink taken. We were all that age once and not many have a button of sense when you're airlocked at 16/17 years of age. I've been in secnarios like that at nightclubs when I was younger,  even in school where you've a big group and pushing and shoving takes place in a confined space. Obviously the last thing that crosses their mind is that it might cause serious injury or a fatality. The same way it doesn't cross the mind of a 16/17 year old when they take the parents yock out for a spin and write the car off injuring or killing their mates.

Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

Why can this not be compared to Hillsborough and if it can't why are all media outlets getting Phil Scratons views on it. He was very definitive on what the questions need to be asked and he doesn't mention the children being the problem.

http://www.irishnews.com/news/northernirelandnews/2019/03/19/news/phil-scraton-says-questions-will-be-asked-in-the-coming-days-about-crowd-safety-1576011/

"In all situations involving people going out for a night out there is a responsibility to put their safety to the forefront,"
Well you can go and compare the two all you want, I'd argue that the failings at Hillsborough were a lot more explicit from the outset than what happened over the weekend not too mention completely different circumstances. They're maybe getting his views because he's a leading academic on crowd control, does not mention Hillsborough anywhere else other than to say his work led him to be involved with the independent panel investigating it.


armaghniac

Quote from: WT4E on March 20, 2019, 12:21:23 PM
Why can this not be compared to Hillsborough and if it can't why are all media outlets getting Phil Scratons views on it. He was very definitive on what the questions need to be asked and he doesn't mention the children being the problem.

Hillsborough had actions that lead to the problem inside the venue.
Media talk about it because it is well known and because they are hard put to find an example of a fatal crush in an open car park outside a disco.

Quote
"In all situations involving people going out for a night out there is a responsibility to put their safety to the forefront,"

No doubt about this.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

trailer

Quote from: five points on March 20, 2019, 12:39:26 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 12:30:44 PM

Is that the sum total of you evidence? One picture? Would you catch yourself on.

In general the lack of intelligence being displayed on this thread is worrying. Shows you what some people actually think in their heads. Scary. Some people really should seek immediate help from trained professionals.

Says the boy who cited a YouTube video as "proof" that there's no overcrowding on the Tube.  ::)

Its a BBC report that details some of the measures that go in to controlling crowds on the London Underground. It is not a 'YouTube Video'
It quite clearly debunks your theory that everyone takes personal responsibility for crowd control on one the World's busiest underground systems.
I am pleading with you to go off and educate yourself.

sid waddell

#141
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.

No one wants to shout stop though.

The relationship of Irish young people with alcohol is an entirely irrelevant subject in this discussion.

Every night, up and down the country, and particularly at weekends, people go out and get drunk. We all do it or have done it.

Most of us have drunk and got drunk when we were 15 or 16. A switch doesn't magically flick on your 18th birthday to make you more responsible in your drinking habits.

Whether you like this or not, it is a fact. It almost certainly isn't going to change.

We accept as a society that there are such things as pubs, clubs and other venues - concerts, and now football matches etc., where alcohol is served, and that people will drink as a way of enhancing their enjoyment. It is up to the people who run venues where alcohol is served to make these venues safe.

We legislate in the knowledge that people can and will do stupid things, and we also legislate in the knowledge that sometimes, if things are not legislated for, situations can arise which spiral out of the control of any one individual. We legislate so that such potentially tragic situations can be avoided.

We don't say "ah, shure run any oul' set up, it doesn't matter if it's dangerous, if anybody gets hurt because a venue is dangerous it's their own responsibility for entering it." We don't say "as soon as a drop of alcohol passes your mouth, you are entirely liable for anything untoward that may happen you".

We say "it's the responsibility of the venue to ensure that people can drink in safety, and move around and be safe at all times".

It is up to our legislators to enact laws which minimise any harm which people under the influence of alcohol can have happen to them, or do to others. That's why we have drink driving laws. It's why being under the influence of alcohol is not a defence for a crime.

We don't say, "ah shure, grand, get drunk and drive away off home there", and then when somebody gets killed, say, "no, no, the lack of drink driving laws are not responsible here, drink driving doesn't kill people, we must protect the right to drink drive". Otherwise we wouldn't have such laws.

The alternative is to do what reactionary right-wing nutcases do in the US as regards stopping any sort of sensible gun laws.

Reactionary right-wing "libertarian" politics, as always, blames the victim. Reactionary right-wing politics preaches "personal responsibility" in a general sense, yet when the personal responsibility of the people who really are personally responsible is found to be wanting, it always shifts to blame the victim or deflect blame away to something else rather than what is actually responsible.

That's true of rape cases, it's true of Hillsborough, it's true of Bloody Sunday, it's true of US gun laws, it's true of the Christchurch massacre, it's true of this tragic case.



WT4E

Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 10:17:17 AM
While I think it's a bit early to be apportioning blame I don't think you can really compare what happened at Hillsborough to what happened in Cookstown. This incident was caused by young people shoving and pushing, and the chances are some if not all of them were drunk. See the young girls Facebook post which has gone viral.

Quote from: general_lee on March 20, 2019, 12:48:46 PM
I'm not denying lack of security was a factor.

I see you're changing your angle now. The fact in your original post you choose to pick out the children pushing from the first hand account on facebook and not that there was a lack of support from any of the security staff says to me you where shifting blame away from the hotel security to the children involved and therefore denying lack of security. If half the rumours (which I wont post for obvious reasons) I have heard about what security where up to when this was going on are true.... I hope the idiots on hear blaming children front up and apologise.

nrico2006

Quote from: Boycey on March 20, 2019, 11:13:57 AM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 20, 2019, 11:10:43 AM
Quote from: trailer on March 20, 2019, 11:03:24 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

The absolute cut of this post. Please seek help from a trained professional. You are not well in the head.

Other than the unsubstantiated cocaine claim, I don't see much wrong with that post.

Yeah I'm in agreement

Me too.
'To the extreme I rock a mic like a vandal, light up a stage and wax a chump like a candle.'

Mikhailov

Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

An absolutely disgraceful and disgusting post. You need help and need it quickly. What sort of thoughts are going through your head to put something like that in print!!!

Are you a parent? If yes, then thank f**k I don't know you

Dreadful post !!!

quit yo jibbajabba

Few people losing the run of themselves on here. Theres a change. Yis mitent agree with it all but to say its all bollocks is, well bollocks

If anyone thinks the Irish have a good relationship with alcohol then theres not much to say. Generalisation i know. Take a scoot out some night round a big town and have a gander.

Likewise if people know their children have fake IDs, is that ok? I dont think Seany was necessarily apportioning blame just pointing stuff out, as i am

But anyways, must go, feelings are high, which is understandable

johnnycool

Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 01:00:44 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.

No one wants to shout stop though.

The relationship of Irish young people with alcohol is an entirely irrelevant subject in this discussion.

Every night, up and down the country, and particularly at weekends, people go out and get drunk. We all do it or have done it.

Most of us have drunk and got drunk when we were 15 or 16. A switch doesn't magically flick on your 18th birthday to make you more responsible in your drinking habits.

Whether you like this or not, it is a fact. It almost certainly isn't going to change.

We accept as a society that there are such things as pubs, clubs and other venues - concerts, and now football matches etc., where alcohol is served, and that people will drink as a way of enhancing their enjoyment. It is up to the people who run venues where alcohol is served to make these venues safe.

We legislate in the knowledge that people can and will do stupid things, and we also legislate in the knowledge that sometimes, if things are not legislated for, situations can arise which spiral out of the control of any one individual. We legislate so that such potentially tragic situations can be avoided.

We don't say "ah, shure run any oul' set up, it doesn't matter if it's dangerous, if anybody gets hurt because a venue is dangerous it's their own responsibility for entering it." We don't say "as soon as a drop of alcohol passes your mouth, you are entirely liable for anything untoward that may happen you".

We say "it's the responsibility of the venue to ensure that people can drink in safety, and move around and be safe at all times".

It is up to our legislators to enact laws which minimise any harm which people under the influence of alcohol can have happen to them, or do to others. That's why we have drink driving laws. It's why being under the influence of alcohol is not a defence for a crime.

We don't say, "ah shure, grand, get drunk and drive away off home there", and then when somebody gets killed, say, "no, no, the lack of drink driving laws are not responsible here, drink driving doesn't kill people, we must protect the right to drink drive". Otherwise we wouldn't have such laws.

The alternative is to do what reactionary right-wing nutcases do in the US as regards stopping any sort of sensible gun laws.

Reactionary right-wing "libertarian" politics, as always, blames the victim. Reactionary right-wing politics preaches "personal responsibility" in a general sense, yet when the personal responsibility of the people who really are personally responsible is found to be wanting, it always shifts to blame the victim or deflect blame away to something else rather than what is actually responsible.

That's true of rape cases, it's true of Hillsborough, it's true of Bloody Sunday, it's true of US gun laws, it's true of the Christchurch massacre, it's true of this tragic case.

I know nothing of this particular incident in Cookstown other than what is available in the media and if you think I was apportioning blame on the kids and the parents for what happened then you are misreading my intentions and yes, it is probably irrelevant to the main thrust of this thread and I accept that.

I was passing social comment on our unhealthy relationship with alcohol, especially at the early teens, nothing more, nothing less. You're happy with that then that's fine but I'm not although I'm in the minority by the sounds of it.
It's a bit like the gun control debate in the US in so much as its so far gone we can do nothing to change it.


sid waddell

#147
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 01:51:13 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on March 20, 2019, 01:00:44 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.

No one wants to shout stop though.

The relationship of Irish young people with alcohol is an entirely irrelevant subject in this discussion.

Every night, up and down the country, and particularly at weekends, people go out and get drunk. We all do it or have done it.

Most of us have drunk and got drunk when we were 15 or 16. A switch doesn't magically flick on your 18th birthday to make you more responsible in your drinking habits.

Whether you like this or not, it is a fact. It almost certainly isn't going to change.

We accept as a society that there are such things as pubs, clubs and other venues - concerts, and now football matches etc., where alcohol is served, and that people will drink as a way of enhancing their enjoyment. It is up to the people who run venues where alcohol is served to make these venues safe.

We legislate in the knowledge that people can and will do stupid things, and we also legislate in the knowledge that sometimes, if things are not legislated for, situations can arise which spiral out of the control of any one individual. We legislate so that such potentially tragic situations can be avoided.

We don't say "ah, shure run any oul' set up, it doesn't matter if it's dangerous, if anybody gets hurt because a venue is dangerous it's their own responsibility for entering it." We don't say "as soon as a drop of alcohol passes your mouth, you are entirely liable for anything untoward that may happen you".

We say "it's the responsibility of the venue to ensure that people can drink in safety, and move around and be safe at all times".

It is up to our legislators to enact laws which minimise any harm which people under the influence of alcohol can have happen to them, or do to others. That's why we have drink driving laws. It's why being under the influence of alcohol is not a defence for a crime.

We don't say, "ah shure, grand, get drunk and drive away off home there", and then when somebody gets killed, say, "no, no, the lack of drink driving laws are not responsible here, drink driving doesn't kill people, we must protect the right to drink drive". Otherwise we wouldn't have such laws.

The alternative is to do what reactionary right-wing nutcases do in the US as regards stopping any sort of sensible gun laws.

Reactionary right-wing "libertarian" politics, as always, blames the victim. Reactionary right-wing politics preaches "personal responsibility" in a general sense, yet when the personal responsibility of the people who really are personally responsible is found to be wanting, it always shifts to blame the victim or deflect blame away to something else rather than what is actually responsible.

That's true of rape cases, it's true of Hillsborough, it's true of Bloody Sunday, it's true of US gun laws, it's true of the Christchurch massacre, it's true of this tragic case.

I know nothing of this particular incident in Cookstown other than what is available in the media and if you think I was apportioning blame on the kids and the parents for what happened then you are misreading my intentions and yes, it is probably irrelevant to the main thrust of this thread and I accept that.

I was passing social comment on our unhealthy relationship with alcohol, especially at the early teens, nothing more, nothing less. You're happy with that then that's fine but I'm not although I'm in the minority by the sounds of it.
It's a bit like the gun control debate in the US in so much as its so far gone we can do nothing to change it.
I didn't say you were apportioning blame to the victims or their parents.

But anybody who doesn't have a major issue with the post above yours would be doing so.

I'm saying that the issue of young people's relationship with alcohol is completely irrelevant in terms of what happened here, and any attempt to make it a focus of discussion spectacularly misses the point. It introduces a massive red herring, which can only cloud and distort discussion about the real and only issue at hand as regards this disaster.

The issue here is the lack of crowd control. That's the only issue - as was the case at Hillsborough.

five points

Quote from: awideisneverasgood on March 20, 2019, 12:41:43 PM
https://www.london.gov.uk/questions/2015/4429

Each station is required to have a Congestion Control and Emergency Plan (CCEP) in place to ensure that any congestion on platforms, concourses and other areas in a station does not impact on the safety of customers.

I think its very naive to think that safety on the London underground is solely dependent on passenger behavior.

Did you see the photo I posted? https://ibb.co/r4PWF5q

BennyCake

Quote from: johnnycool on March 20, 2019, 11:09:20 AM
Quote from: Seany on March 20, 2019, 10:33:09 AM
Perhaps when the dust settles on this tragic event, we can have a serious conversation about the drinking culture in Ireland, not only among young people, but in general.  The utter dependency on alcohol is frightening -even check out the t-shirts on those hen night girls and you can see that virtually all our down time with friends is spent in the company of alcohol and we have a crazy obsession with it.  400 people in a car park is not a risk and should never be a risk, but young people getting off buses, tanked up, drunk and possibly many having taken cocaine and suddenly the vulnerability of those at the front and those who are smaller and lighter can be understood.  We also need to realise that parents allowing their children to have fake ID is not good parenting.  This was an 18+ disco.  If so, why was there a crowd of 400 children of 16 and under in that car park?  Why did parents let them out?  Did parents know they were drinking?  Are parents so stupid as to turn a blind eye to their children drinking at that age?  The thing that drives me mad is the old story - 'sure we all did it when we were their age'.,  This is why there needs to be a serious culture change in this country, starting with a bit of soul searching as to how we interpret St. Patrick's Day. Around six dead at the last count. Arresting the hotel owner is just typical of an attitude that will seek to punish a man for putting on an event, checking ID and assuming they were all over 18, therefore selling alcohol, while the parents, the bus drivers, the off licence owners and the teenagers themselves will go scot free.

We really do have an unhealthy relationship with alcohol and you're right that it's passed down from generation to generation where underage drinking is seemed as a rite of passage and "sure we all did it" makes it ok.
Most come through this phase ok but some don't and aren't mature enough to handle alcohol and binge drinking/Alcoholism develops from these formative years and replace proper social skills like holding conversations with people without being hammered.

No one wants to shout stop though.

Yup I agree. The government certainly won't be shouting stop. Their way of handling it is put the price up.

If you want to get real about the alcohol consumption in this country, there's only one thing for it, and that's getting rid of all off licenses. If people want to drink, there's the pub. And if you're not 18, then you won't be drinking. There's your underage drinking stopped in a second.

We all know this won't happen though. But if you're serious about dealing with drink, it's the only W method.