"Born Fighting" - The story of the Ulster Scots (UTV programme)

[saffron sam2]

Saffron Sam, while i completely agree with you on the point you made that many bastardised Irish names have been misconceived as 'planter' names (hawthorne, armstrong etc. among others) i take issue with the fact that you say that people who may have been mistaken as being of planter stock have had their blood 'diluted'. It is a such an extreme right wing statement to make.

I am presuming by that statement that you are a nationalist who is of the opinion that the greater Irish ancestry you are the better an Irish person you are which is complete balls. So waht if someone has a 'planter' name or an english name, it doesn't matter. Tone clearly stated that it didn't matter whether you were Gael, Scot, Anglo-Norman or Huguenot in terms of descent but it was your own personal outlook that mattered. People's Irish credentials should be based on their own personal outlook.

You should presume nothing my fellow, albeit clearly diluted, Gael. I accept it is hard after only five posts but you'll get there in the end.

Now, off I go to find some nice red headed, freckled, slightly turned-up nosed people with fadas in their name to converse with.

[Evil Genius]

http://www.u.tv/utvplayer/video/134863

Is it any good?

At 45 minutes, I'd guess it might be a bit dull for people who aren't particularly interested in history etc. But if you are, then I'd say it was well worth watching.
You may have missed the UTVPlayer link I supplied, so why don't you give it a try?

[Evil Genius]

Wad abut der Scotch-Irish?

As the programme points out, the people usually known in the north of Ireland/NI as "Ulster-Scots", became known as "Scotch-Irish" after they arrived in the New World.

Btw, the first part of the programme dealt with their initial migration from Scotland to Ireland; Part Two (next week) covers what happened to those of them who migrated a second time.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Enjoyed this programme the other night.

A great presenter, very balanced and fair... especially when he called those land and livelihood robbing orange bastards for what they were 

[Evil Genius]

Worth watching, skims over how things affected the native Irish (having their lands take, penal laws) but I suppose the programme is really about the Scotties.

Er, yes. If you're only worried about the plight of the "native Irish", then perhaps you might have been better off watching this other self-indulgent pile of crap estimable contribution to our island's rich culture...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00y44gx

Interesting his comments on how the Scotties that are still here are now blind loyalists to London whereas their ancestors were not due to being treated so harshly.

After 400-odd years, I think you'll find that these people are no longer "Scotties" [sic], but are every bit as Irish as you.

Moreover, the descendants of the Ulster-Scots in Ireland have adjusted their attitudes with the times, as have the English, even if you haven't:
"But I will never be neutral when it comes to expressing my support for the Union. So, today, let us pledge ourselves to come together as Conservatives and Unionists in a new and dynamic political force in Northern Ireland. For the good of our parties. But, above all, for the good of the people and our United Kingdom." - Future Prime Minister (and Englishman!) David Cameron, in December 2008.

[Evil Genius]

Great, all you need is one of the above surnames to be Ulster Scot and then be able to speak English with a thick accent to be fluent in the Ulster Scot language. I will watch with great interest.

Ulster Scots would be better described as a dialect rather than a language ... would it not?

In balladmaker's terms, yes (imo).

But this programme was not about the language/dialect called Ulster Scots, it was about the people who are called Ulster Scots.

[Evil Genius]

However I must pull you on the following:

You know, people with surnames like Johnson, Armstrong, Elliott, Hume, Adams...

Many Armstrongs claim to be descended from the Ó Labhradha Tréan clan, the strong arm of the Lavery clan. Indeed Mac Thréinfhir has also been anglicised as Armstrong. Most people will be aware that many Irish names were translated literally into an English equivalent and have no direct link to the planter name and people bearing those names may not have had their blood diluted by that of the planter. You appear not to be aware though.

Of course Ramsey and Buchanan for example have no defence.

I am well aware that many seemingly Scottish or English surnames are actually corruptions of Irish names.

But I thought to include "Armstrong" as an example of a "Planter" name for three reasons. First, it is still one of the most common surnames in NI of those who derive from Planter stock.

And second, although I have no hard evidence, I would guess that more Armstrongs in Ireland today are so-named for their Planter origins than from Ó Labhradha Tréan/Lavery roots.

And finally, Webb specifically mentioned the (sometimes forgotten) contribution of the Riever clans of the Scottish/English borders towards the migration to Ulster during the Plantation. And there is no more Riever surname than Armstrong:

Border 'Names' and Clan status

The border families can be referred to as clans, as the Scots themselves appear to have used both terms interchangeably until the 19th century. In an Act of the Scottish Parliament of 1597 there is the description of the "Chiftanis and chieffis of all clannis... duelland in the hielands or bordouris" - thus using the word clan and chief to describe both Highland and Lowland families. The act goes on to list the various Border clans. Later, Sir George MacKenzie of Rosehaugh, the Lord Advocate (Attorney General) writing in 1680 said "By the term 'chief' we call the representative of the family from the word chef or head and in the Irish (Gaelic) with us the chief of the family is called the head of the clan". Thus, the words chief or head, and clan or family, are interchangeable. It is therefore possible to talk of the MacDonald family or the Maxwell clan. The idea that Highlanders should be listed as clans while the Lowlanders are listed as families originated as a 19th century convention.[9]

Other terms were also used to describe the Border families, such as the "Riding Surnames" and the "Graynes" thereof. This can be equated to the system of the Highland Clans and their septs. e.g. Clan Donald and Clan MacDonald of Sleat, can be compared with the Scotts of Buccleuch and the Scotts of Harden and elsewhere. Both Border Graynes and Highland septs however, had the essential feature of patriarchal leadership by the chief of the name, and had territories in which most of their kindred lived. Border families did practice customs similar to those of the Gaels, such as tutorship when an heir who was a minor succeeded to the chiefship, and giving bonds of manrent. Although feudalism existed, tribal loyalty was much more important and this is what distinguished the Borderers from other lowland Scots.[citation needed]

In 1587 the Parliament of Scotland passed a statute: "For the quieting and keping in obiedince of the disorderit subjectis inhabitantis of the borders hielands and Ilis.".[10] Attached to the statute was a Roll of surnames from both the Borders and Highlands. The Borders portion listed 17 'clannis' with a Chief and their associated Marches:

    * MIDDLE MARCH: Elliot, Armstrong, Nixon, Crosier
    * WEST MARCH: Scott, Bates, Little, Thomson, Glendenning, Irvine, Bell, Carruthers, Graham, Johnstone, Jardine, Moffat and Latimer.

Of the Border Clans or Graynes listed on this roll, Elliot, Armstrong, Scott, Little, Irvine, Bell, Graham, Johnstone, Jardine and Moffat are registered with the Court of Lord Lyon in Edinburgh as Scottish Clans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Border_Reivers

(And yes, I know it's Wiki, but I think my point stands...)

[Evil Genius]

also interesting that these ulster scots names don't have a 'Mc' or 'Mac' in them, probably because they were all lowland scots who destroyed the ancient clans during the highland clearances and deplored the 'wild irish' of the glens yet they love their music i.e. bagpipes, yet the irony is lost on them, it's akin to the US army naming their helicopter 'apache'

Dear oh dear.

There were many reasons why the old Highland clan system broke down, but to ascribe it simply to "destruction by the lowland Scots" is ignorant (bigoted?), even by your standard.

But if you really need to reduce it to the most simplistic of terms, then much of the blame must surely lie with the Clan chiefs themselves, who often willingly sold (literally) their people from off the land and replaced them with sheep, for pure financial gain.

And if you want proof of that, you only have to study the surnames and ancestry of the current owners of huge Estates and Castles etc in the Highlands and Islands, to see that many are the direct descendants of the Clan Chiefs of the late 18th/early 19th Centuries who cleared "their" land of people. (If you need further clues, you might want to Google eg "The McLeod of McLeod", or Alexander Ranaldson MacDonell of Glengarry)

[spuds]

Worth watching, skims over how things affected the native Irish (having their lands take, penal laws) but I suppose the programme is really about the Scotties.

Er, yes. If you're only worried about the plight of the "native Irish", then perhaps you might have been better off watching this other self-indulgent pile of crap estimable contribution to our island's rich culture...
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00y44gx

Never said anything about being only worried about the plight of the native Irish....just that Webb mentions issues such as the Penal laws being aimed at the Ulster Scotts when their effects were felt most severely by the natives ! As I said, the programme was about the Scotties, and an interesting one too.

Interesting his comments on how the Scotties that are still here are now blind loyalists to London whereas their ancestors were not due to being treated so harshly.

After 400-odd years, I think you'll find that these people are no longer "Scotties" [sic], but are every bit as Irish as you.

Moreover, the descendants of the Ulster-Scots in Ireland have adjusted their attitudes with the times, as have the English, even if you haven't:
"But I will never be neutral when it comes to expressing my support for the Union. So, today, let us pledge ourselves to come together as Conservatives and Unionists in a new and dynamic political force in Northern Ireland. For the good of our parties. But, above all, for the good of the people and our United Kingdom." - Future Prime Minister (and Englishman!) David Cameron, in December 2008.

I have found otherwise ! You seem a bit sensitive to any comments whatsoever posted here. I mentioned the above due to the fact that at that time they were loyal to their way of life and religion and that they were f**ked over by London which resulted in many of them moving on again to the new world for freedom of expression etc. The fact that many of those who stayed on are now in cahoots with the conservatives et al is clear for all to see...but thanks for stating the obvious.

[saffron sam2]

However I must pull you on the following:

You know, people with surnames like Johnson, Armstrong, Elliott, Hume, Adams...

Many Armstrongs claim to be descended from the Ó Labhradha Tréan clan, the strong arm of the Lavery clan. Indeed Mac Thréinfhir has also been anglicised as Armstrong. Most people will be aware that many Irish names were translated literally into an English equivalent and have no direct link to the planter name and people bearing those names may not have had their blood diluted by that of the planter. You appear not to be aware though.

Of course Ramsey and Buchanan for example have no defence.

I am well aware that many seemingly Scottish or English surnames are actually corruptions of Irish names.

But I thought to include "Armstrong" as an example of a "Planter" name for three reasons. First, it is still one of the most common surnames in NI of those who derive from Planter stock.

And second, although I have no hard evidence, I would guess that more Armstrongs in Ireland today are so-named for their Planter origins than from Ó Labhradha Tréan/Lavery roots.

And finally, Webb specifically mentioned the (sometimes forgotten) contribution of the Riever clans of the Scottish/English borders towards the migration to Ulster during the Plantation. And there is no more Riever surname than Armstrong:

Can I add a possible fourth reason? That Armstrong, like Johnson, is the Scottish-sounding surname of a reasonably well-known former Northern Ireland footballer who also happened to be a Fenian.

By the way, many Johnsons claim that their surname is the anglicised corruption of Mac Seáin.

[Poc me]

Evil Genius, one thing your forgetting here is that names such as armstrong/johnston etc. probably all derive from scots Gaelic which obviously was brough to Scotland by the Irish around the 5th Century, when Irish missionaries and indeed clans dominated the western shores of Scotland and penetrated further East as time went by, eventually introducing their language to the Picts. . Therefore these names qutie likely are anglicised from gaelic.

Oh and Saffron Sam, if you're going to rate the quality of someones responses based on the number of posts they make then thats just a tad snobbish.

[saffron sam2]

Evil Genius, one thing your forgetting here is that names such as armstrong/johnston etc. probably all derive from scots Gaelic which obviously was brough to Scotland by the Irish around the 5th Century, when Irish missionaries and indeed clans dominated the western shores of Scotland and penetrated further East as time went by, eventually introducing their language to the Picts. . Therefore these names qutie likely are anglicised from gaelic.

Oh and Saffron Sam, if you're going to rate the quality of someones responses based on the number of posts they make then thats just a tad snobbish.

I also consider someone's ability to use the apostrophe when rating the quality of his / her responses.

[Banana Man]

also interesting that these ulster scots names don't have a 'Mc' or 'Mac' in them, probably because they were all lowland scots who destroyed the ancient clans during the highland clearances and deplored the 'wild irish' of the glens yet they love their music i.e. bagpipes, yet the irony is lost on them, it's akin to the US army naming their helicopter 'apache'

Dear oh dear.

There were many reasons why the old Highland clan system broke down, but to ascribe it simply to "destruction by the lowland Scots" is ignorant (bigoted?), even by your standard.

But if you really need to reduce it to the most simplistic of terms, then much of the blame must surely lie with the Clan chiefs themselves, who often willingly sold (literally) their people from off the land and replaced them with sheep, for pure financial gain.

And if you want proof of that, you only have to study the surnames and ancestry of the current owners of huge Estates and Castles etc in the Highlands and Islands, to see that many are the direct descendants of the Clan Chiefs of the late 18th/early 19th Centuries who cleared "their" land of people. (If you need further clues, you might want to Google eg "The McLeod of McLeod", or Alexander Ranaldson MacDonell of Glengarry)

wow wow wow EG I never attributed the breakdown of the clan system entirely to the lowland scots, i would agree that yes the clan leaders were seduced by the monetary gains of grazing and the seduction of the high class living of Edinburgh however the lowland scots played a massive part in it, entering into the highlands and manipulating the ordinary clan members left leaderless by the cieftain who swilled beer in edinburgh.

You also avoided the main point (as usual) that being that Scotland was basically 2 countries divided by the great glens, with the old gaelic/celtic trib in the north whilst the lowlands were an entirely differen tribe(s) and religion, they hated the highlanders and sought their destruction, yet every time they get misty eyed they reach for a set of bagpipes and don a kilt, this lack of understanding of where these so called ulster scots came from never ceases to astound me and the irony is totally lost on you and them.

[Evil Genius]

However I must pull you on the following:

You know, people with surnames like Johnson, Armstrong, Elliott, Hume, Adams...

Many Armstrongs claim to be descended from the Ó Labhradha Tréan clan, the strong arm of the Lavery clan. Indeed Mac Thréinfhir has also been anglicised as Armstrong. Most people will be aware that many Irish names were translated literally into an English equivalent and have no direct link to the planter name and people bearing those names may not have had their blood diluted by that of the planter. You appear not to be aware though.

Of course Ramsey and Buchanan for example have no defence.

I am well aware that many seemingly Scottish or English surnames are actually corruptions of Irish names.

But I thought to include "Armstrong" as an example of a "Planter" name for three reasons. First, it is still one of the most common surnames in NI of those who derive from Planter stock.

And second, although I have no hard evidence, I would guess that more Armstrongs in Ireland today are so-named for their Planter origins than from Ó Labhradha Tréan/Lavery roots.

And finally, Webb specifically mentioned the (sometimes forgotten) contribution of the Riever clans of the Scottish/English borders towards the migration to Ulster during the Plantation. And there is no more Riever surname than Armstrong:

Can I add a possible fourth reason? That Armstrong, like Johnson, is the Scottish-sounding surname of a reasonably well-known former Northern Ireland footballer who also happened to be a Fenian.

You can add as many as you like, but you'd likely be as wrong with the rest as you are with your "fourth".

I selected the first three Planter names as the first to come into my head for being common in my part of Ulster (i.e. relations, neighbours, schoolmates etc).

I then added Hume and Adams for amusement.

At no time was I thinking of Damien Johnson, Gerry Armstrong, Stuarty Elliott. or even Billy McAdams (can't think of any NI footballers called "Hume")

By the way, many Johnsons claim that their surname is the anglicised corruption of Mac Seáin.

I'm sure they do.

Doesn't stop it being a very common (the most?) Planter name.

Nor does it mean that I would cite "Johnson" (or "Armstrong", for that matter) if I were asked to come up with a list of surnames common amongst people whose ancestry is Irish Gaelic, funnily enough...

[Evil Genius]

Evil Genius, one thing your forgetting here is that names such as armstrong/johnston etc. probably all derive from scots Gaelic which obviously was brough to Scotland by the Irish around the 5th Century, when Irish missionaries and indeed clans dominated the western shores of Scotland and penetrated further East as time went by, eventually introducing their language to the Picts. . Therefore these names qutie likely are anglicised from gaelic.

Not forgetting it at all.

I was merely citing common surnames amongst those Planters who came to Ulster in the early 17th century, surnames which for the most part, are still common amongst their decendants today.

The fact that some of those names may have had earlier Irish Gaelic roots does not alter my point.

And in any case, not every Planter was Scottish, a considerable number were English, or Borderers (Reivers), amongst whom Irish Gaelic ancestry is likely to have been negligible.

Moreover, the modern system of Surnames long post-dates the 5th Century, therefore I fear you overstate the significance of Irish Gaels and Missionaries etc.

For example, my own surname, impeccably Planter but by no means excliusively Prod/Unionist today, was first recorded in the 12th Century, in Scotland. I guess my ancestors were given, or assumed it, from the name of the place where they lived. And that place was called after the local landowner, whose own origins were actually Anglo-Norman. 

Anyhow, I appreciated your reply to Saffron Sam, even if he didn't!