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Non GAA Discussion => General discussion => Topic started by: rossiewanderer on August 13, 2014, 07:55:36 PM

Title: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 13, 2014, 07:55:36 PM
Currently Islamists are waging war in the following Countries;


1. Mali
2. Nigeria
3. Chad
4. Tunisia
5. Libya
6. Egypt
7. Kenya
8. Somalia
9. Syria
10. Iraq
11. Lebanon
12. Southern Turkey
13. Kurdistan
14. Yemen
15.Tajikistan
16. Uzbekistan
17. Kyrgyzstan
18. Afghanistan
19. Pakistan
20. Kashmir
21. Northern India
22. Bangladesh
23. CAR
24. Sudan
25. Philipines
26. Thailand
27. Myanmar
28 Western China
29. Western Russia
30. Dagestan
31. Chechneya
32. Balkans
33. Israel
34. Gaza

This does not include terrorist atrocities carried out in the name of Islam in France, USA, Spain, Belguim, Canada and Sweden.

Presently ISIS are beheading children raping woman burying people alive and slaughtering anything that does not conform with their Religious beliefs.Christians, Kurds,  and Yezidis are bearing the brunt of this apocalyptical barbarism.This has been going on for months and only now is it coming to light in the wider world.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISSIS
Post by: muppet on August 13, 2014, 08:25:46 PM
Do you mean ISIS - Islamic State of Iraq and Levant?

Or do you mean ISSIS - the Palestinian Belly Dancer?

(http://img.poptower.com/pic-94379/janelle-issis-so-you-think-you-can-dance.jpg?d=600)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: mylestheslasher on August 13, 2014, 10:29:44 PM
Religion is the root of all evil. These guys are vermin but I'm afraid the vermin are not restricted to one religion, I am sure you could draw up a good list of christian groups that are fighting too. The unfortunate thing is that this is the bastard children of the west, the failed reasoning of my enemies enemy is my friend policy.

Look at Egypt. A muslim government elected in democratic elections. A military coup sponsored by the yanks and the dictators are back in power. The net result - radical Islam will flourish.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Gaffer on August 13, 2014, 10:38:12 PM
Saw some ISIS videos on liveleak.   They are a cruel bunch.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hereiam on August 13, 2014, 10:55:02 PM
Didn't America arm these guys in Syria where they portrayed as freedom fighters to the western world and now that they have moved into Iraq they are now terrorists. They are doing what America and Britain want and that is to keep the middle east in turmoil so that oil will stay at low prices. Why do you think Britain is not sending in the fighter jets to wipe these guy out, this has all been pre arranged. ISIS is doing America and Britain's dirty work.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: lynchbhoy on August 13, 2014, 11:56:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 13, 2014, 10:29:44 PM
Religion is the root of all evil. These guys are vermin but I'm afraid the vermin are not restricted to one religion, I am sure you could draw up a good list of christian groups that are fighting too. The unfortunate thing is that this is the b**tard children of the west, the failed reasoning of my enemies enemy is my friend policy.

Look at Egypt. A muslim government elected in democratic elections. A military coup sponsored by the yanks and the dictators are back in power. The net result - radical Islam will flourish.
Fcuk sake Myles
You might not like or have time for religion
But I don't know of any other religion that's perpetrating such war/ethnic cleansing/ genocide etc like this 
Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)

I think it's Israel not the Jewish religion that is responsible for most of the hassle in their region!

I'd hope that this insurgency is the last actions of a religion going a bit mad before it stabilizes.
However I'm not sure who or what will stabilize it!
The decent muslim folk seem too afraid to stand up to the warmongers.

If unattested, this third world problem may arrive at our first world doorstep soon!

No- I don't have ideas on how to quell it!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: ONeill on August 14, 2014, 01:02:15 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 13, 2014, 11:56:18 PM

Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)


Ah that's great. They've moved on from killing to molesting and homophobia.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 14, 2014, 01:22:34 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on August 13, 2014, 10:55:02 PM
Didn't America arm these guys in Syria where they portrayed as freedom fighters to the western world and now that they have moved into Iraq they are now terrorists. They are doing what America and Britain want and that is to keep the middle east in turmoil so that oil will stay at low prices. Why do you think Britain is not sending in the fighter jets to wipe these guy out, this has all been pre arranged. ISIS is doing America and Britain's dirty work.

Many of the  ISIS animals were born and grew up in Western society treated fairly and given every chance to succeed.ISIS is a Religious cult which has no compunction in beheading children Raping woman and slaughtering anything in its path.It is far from the only Islamist group waging a similar slaughter worldwide far from Oil wells.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 05:20:14 AM
Despite the continued portrayal in the Western media, Muslims are not total barbarians and religion is not the root of all evil. In fact most Muslims are peace loving affable people and religion is actual the soul of civilisation and the  real reason why we are able to live together and advance society in relative harmony.

ISIS are not representative of Islam in any way and they're proclamation to reestablish a caliphate is laughable and utter nonsense. Their uncompromising radicalism is more representative of the Third Reich or the Khymer Rouge.  The Muslim caliphates of the Ottoman and Moorish empires that they refer to were civilisations that lasted and thrived for centuries based on principles of harmony and inclusion,  that lead to a cohesive society were people from various backgrounds were able to live as relative equals and thus giving full contribution to society. Christians, Jews, Muslims & a few other groups besides all lived together peacefully. If you've ever been to Cordoba or Granada in Spain and you will be able to see the magnificence of Moorish architecture.

"But where are they now?" I hear you ask! Well the Moors gradually got more exclusive to non Muslims which ultimately lead to their demise. The Ottomans had a similar long term slide more to do with the fragmented nature of their empire but the nail in their coffin was the rise of nationalism. The British and French empires spread the notion of nationalism throughout the Middle East basically based on the principle that all people and cultures need their own fatherland in which to exist and thrive properly. It was of course nonsense as all these people had been living and thriving together for centuries. However it struck a cord and lead to the Arab Uprising in WW1 and the ultimate downfall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ironically enough for the British and French the sowing of this seed lead to the disintegration of their own empires very shortly afterwards

Lebanon is the perfect example of how nationalism doesn't work all those people in Lebanon Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Druze & Maronites lived together in relative peace and prosperity for centuries, cue nationislm and some people within each groups start to believe that Lebanon is their country and a brutal civil war breaks out where these people begin to butcher their neighbours. The idea of nationalism also lead to the notion that Jews required a homeland which lead to the them taking over what the Palestians reckoned was their homeland and the subsequent conflict there.

Also Saudi Arabia is often cited as a country where Islam is practiced in its truest form using the laws that were handed straight down from the beginning of Islam. This is utter tosh. 90years ago 90%of Saudi Arabians lived a nomadic lifestyle and their current laws of keeping women hidden and swift brutal justice has more to do with the brutal neccesity of living in such a way. To compare them to the standard of a western liberal democracy which has been a settled society refining its rules laws for thousands of years is ludicrous. 

You only have to look our own conflict to see what that it the idea of belonging to a homeland that caused conflict not religion.
The idea of nationalism is deeply ingrained in Western culture that we refuse to look at the problems it causes as we take it for granted its just the way it is.

The assault from the media to place the world's problems on religion is incorrect and fails to recognise the role that  religion plays in society. Religion gives us principles and even a way of thinking that will allow us to live fuller lives in which will allow us to grow and our neighbours to grow as individuals and as a society. Even those who say they have no religion in the West are actually living to the Principles of Christianity. When I look at people who I know who are living closest to the principles of Christianity they are the happiest and best loved people I know.

So don't roll out the fashionable "Its all religions fault" when there is conflict in the world because it just ain't the case!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: southdown on August 14, 2014, 08:59:15 AM
I have also saw some of the videos of their cruelty online.  A savage shower of c**** is the only way to describe them. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on August 14, 2014, 09:52:08 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on August 13, 2014, 10:55:02 PM
Didn't America arm these guys in Syria where they portrayed as freedom fighters to the western world and now that they have moved into Iraq they are now terrorists. They are doing what America and Britain want and that is to keep the middle east in turmoil so that oil will stay at low prices. Why do you think Britain is not sending in the fighter jets to wipe these guy out, this has all been pre arranged. ISIS is doing America and Britain's dirty work.

Barak was pretty coy about arming these freedom fighters in both Syria and Libya even if there was a lot of pressure from the French in particular to get rid of Gadaffi in Libya, their pet project as he'd fucked out Total (IIRC) from the Libyan oil fields.
I think they were armed via some middle eastern middle man or other, so the blame can't come directly to any of the Western powers door.

Former Colonel Tim Collins is advocating 'support' for the Sunni tribes in this area ISIS is strong in to help overthrow them along with giving the Kurds some more serious firepower, not sure the Turks will want that!!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: God14 on August 14, 2014, 10:08:31 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 14, 2014, 09:52:08 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on August 13, 2014, 10:55:02 PM
Didn't America arm these guys in Syria where they portrayed as freedom fighters to the western world and now that they have moved into Iraq they are now terrorists. They are doing what America and Britain want and that is to keep the middle east in turmoil so that oil will stay at low prices. Why do you think Britain is not sending in the fighter jets to wipe these guy out, this has all been pre arranged. ISIS is doing America and Britain's dirty work.

Barak was pretty coy about arming these freedom fighters in both Syria and Libya even if there was a lot of pressure from the French in particular to get rid of Gadaffi in Libya, their pet project as he'd fucked out Total (IIRC) from the Libyan oil fields.
I think they were armed via some middle eastern middle man or other, so the blame can't come directly to any of the Western powers door.

Former Colonel Tim Collins is advocating 'support' for the Sunni tribes in this area ISIS is strong in to help overthrow them along with giving the Kurds some more serious firepower, not sure the Turks will want that!!

Collins is an interesting character, read his book a few years ago... enjoyable read.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: magpie seanie on August 14, 2014, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 05:20:14 AM
Despite the continued portrayal in the Western media, Muslims are not total barbarians and religion is not the root of all evil. In fact most Muslims are peace loving affable people and religion is actual the soul of civilisation and the  real reason why we are able to live together and advance society in relative harmony.

ISIS are not representative of Islam in any way and they're proclamation to reestablish a caliphate is laughable and utter nonsense. Their uncompromising radicalism is more representative of the Third Reich or the Khymer Rouge.  The Muslim caliphates of the Ottoman and Moorish empires that they refer to were civilisations that lasted and thrived for centuries based on principles of harmony and inclusion,  that lead to a cohesive society were people from various backgrounds were able to live as relative equals and thus giving full contribution to society. Christians, Jews, Muslims & a few other groups besides all lived together peacefully. If you've ever been to Cordoba or Granada in Spain and you will be able to see the magnificence of Moorish architecture.

"But where are they now?" I hear you ask! Well the Moors gradually got more exclusive to non Muslims which ultimately lead to their demise. The Ottomans had a similar long term slide more to do with the fragmented nature of their empire but the nail in their coffin was the rise of nationalism. The British and French empires spread the notion of nationalism throughout the Middle East basically based on the principle that all people and cultures need their own fatherland in which to exist and thrive properly. It was of course nonsense as all these people had been living and thriving together for centuries. However it struck a cord and lead to the Arab Uprising in WW1 and the ultimate downfall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ironically enough for the British and French the sowing of this seed lead to the disintegration of their own empires very shortly afterwards

Lebanon is the perfect example of how nationalism doesn't work all those people in Lebanon Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Druze & Maronites lived together in relative peace and prosperity for centuries, cue nationislm and some people within each groups start to believe that Lebanon is their country and a brutal civil war breaks out where these people begin to butcher their neighbours. The idea of nationalism also lead to the notion that Jews required a homeland which lead to the them taking over what the Palestians reckoned was their homeland and the subsequent conflict there.

Also Saudi Arabia is often cited as a country where Islam is practiced in its truest form using the laws that were handed straight down from the beginning of Islam. This is utter tosh. 90years ago 90%of Saudi Arabians lived a nomadic lifestyle and their current laws of keeping women hidden and swift brutal justice has more to do with the brutal neccesity of living in such a way. To compare them to the standard of a western liberal democracy which has been a settled society refining its rules laws for thousands of years is ludicrous. 

You only have to look our own conflict to see what that it the idea of belonging to a homeland that caused conflict not religion.
The idea of nationalism is deeply ingrained in Western culture that we refuse to look at the problems it causes as we take it for granted its just the way it is.

The assault from the media to place the world's problems on religion is incorrect and fails to recognise the role that  religion plays in society. Religion gives us principles and even a way of thinking that will allow us to live fuller lives in which will allow us to grow and our neighbours to grow as individuals and as a society. Even those who say they have no religion in the West are actually living to the Principles of Christianity. When I look at people who I know who are living closest to the principles of Christianity they are the happiest and best loved people I know.

So don't roll out the fashionable "Its all religions fault" when there is conflict in the world because it just ain't the case!

Excellent post but I do think religion does get hijacked by other agendas, including nationalism. Often the idea of a homeland or nation breaks down on religious lines so while religion is possibly not the initial cause it is certainly part of the equation.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on August 14, 2014, 10:17:51 AM
Quote from: God14 on August 14, 2014, 10:08:31 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 14, 2014, 09:52:08 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on August 13, 2014, 10:55:02 PM
Didn't America arm these guys in Syria where they portrayed as freedom fighters to the western world and now that they have moved into Iraq they are now terrorists. They are doing what America and Britain want and that is to keep the middle east in turmoil so that oil will stay at low prices. Why do you think Britain is not sending in the fighter jets to wipe these guy out, this has all been pre arranged. ISIS is doing America and Britain's dirty work.

Barak was pretty coy about arming these freedom fighters in both Syria and Libya even if there was a lot of pressure from the French in particular to get rid of Gadaffi in Libya, their pet project as he'd fucked out Total (IIRC) from the Libyan oil fields.
I think they were armed via some middle eastern middle man or other, so the blame can't come directly to any of the Western powers door.

Former Colonel Tim Collins is advocating 'support' for the Sunni tribes in this area ISIS is strong in to help overthrow them along with giving the Kurds some more serious firepower, not sure the Turks will want that!!

Collins is an interesting character, read his book a few years ago... enjoyable read.

He also put the rise of ISIS down to the Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki and his sectarian policies.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Keyser soze on August 14, 2014, 10:46:52 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 14, 2014, 10:17:51 AM
Quote from: God14 on August 14, 2014, 10:08:31 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 14, 2014, 09:52:08 AM
Quote from: Hereiam on August 13, 2014, 10:55:02 PM
Didn't America arm these guys in Syria where they portrayed as freedom fighters to the western world and now that they have moved into Iraq they are now terrorists. They are doing what America and Britain want and that is to keep the middle east in turmoil so that oil will stay at low prices. Why do you think Britain is not sending in the fighter jets to wipe these guy out, this has all been pre arranged. ISIS is doing America and Britain's dirty work.

Barak was pretty coy about arming these freedom fighters in both Syria and Libya even if there was a lot of pressure from the French in particular to get rid of Gadaffi in Libya, their pet project as he'd fucked out Total (IIRC) from the Libyan oil fields.
I think they were armed via some middle eastern middle man or other, so the blame can't come directly to any of the Western powers door.

Former Colonel Tim Collins is advocating 'support' for the Sunni tribes in this area ISIS is strong in to help overthrow them along with giving the Kurds some more serious firepower, not sure the Turks will want that!!

Collins is an interesting character, read his book a few years ago... enjoyable read.

He also put the rise of ISIS down to the Iraqi Prime Minister Maliki and his sectarian policies.

Well he comes across as being as thick as pigshit, as do most army people Ive ever seen/heard. This isn't surprising tbh as the army isnt exactly the first pick for the best and brightest, but rather the last resort for the stupid and most violent.

Why anyone would give any credence to political analysis of any army personnel, no matter how senior, is beyond me. America's disastrous foreign policy is in large part attributable to the cognizance given to the views of their military leaders. as was Britain's in Ireland for a few centuries.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Keyser soze on August 14, 2014, 10:48:12 AM
And I forgot to say that some of the crimes ISIS are committing are disgusting, it is scarey to think where all this might lead to.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on August 14, 2014, 11:43:36 AM
I'm sure his time in the country may have stood by him and maybe he just learned a thing or two about how these tribes, Sunni's, Shia's, Kurds etc operate, more than can be said for some of these politicians sitting in Washington, London, Brussels deciding what to do from a distance.

Quote from: Keyser soze on August 14, 2014, 10:48:12 AM
And I forgot to say that some of the crimes ISIS are committing are disgusting, it is scarey to think where all this might lead to.

Agreed, but what do you think would stop them?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Keyser soze on August 14, 2014, 12:10:21 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 14, 2014, 11:43:36 AM
I'm sure his time in the country may have stood by him and maybe he just learned a thing or two about how these tribes, Sunni's, Shia's, Kurds etc operate, more than can be said for some of these politicians sitting in Washington, London, Brussels deciding what to do from a distance.

Quote from: Keyser soze on August 14, 2014, 10:48:12 AM
And I forgot to say that some of the crimes ISIS are committing are disgusting, it is scarey to think where all this might lead to.

Agreed, but what do you think would stop them?

Well I think military intervention [western mostly it has to be said] in the region [and other areas of the world] has played a definite part in the rise of fundamentalist groups such as ISIS. The solution therefore will not be found in supporting some other faction militarily or by arming opposition groups as this has shown to be counterproductive. The most obvious examples of course being the Taliban, Al Qaeda and now ISIS. Im sure there are loads of other examples in other hotspots.

A military response may work in the short-term militarily but is not a solution as it will not address the reasons why fundamentalism is flourishing. Obviously I don't know the solution as im not knowledgable enough about the situation [same as everyone else on here] but if Tim Collins and his ilk are informing policy then we are surely destined to repeat the mistakes of the past.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: southdown on August 14, 2014, 12:33:47 PM
It seems ridiculous to me that the West fought a long and bloody war in Iraq, it is now turning into the mother of all messes, and they West don't seem to be doing a great deal.  To me, it begs the question why bother with the long war if you are going to do nothing to stop the place sliding into utter chaos?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: NAG1 on August 14, 2014, 12:45:53 PM
Quote from: southdown on August 14, 2014, 12:33:47 PM
It seems ridiculous to me that the West fought a long and bloody war in Iraq, it is now turning into the mother of all messes, and they West don't seem to be doing a great deal.  To me, it begs the question why bother with the long war if you are going to do nothing to stop the place sliding into utter chaos?

Is this not what has happened in every major conflict zone in the recent past?

Short term goals for these wars increasingly lead to bad planning and no end game therefore leaving a vacuum behind.

Dread to think if these extremists actually end up with control of a country with the natural resources of Iraq, what it will mean for the world.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Keyser soze on August 14, 2014, 12:59:49 PM
As the apocryphal story goes...when asked what he thought of the French Revolution a Chinese leader replied that it was too early to tell.

The complete opposite seems to apply to foreign policy in the western democracies where a week is a long time in politics and strategic long term policy is focussed on the next election cycle.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Syferus on August 14, 2014, 03:08:10 PM
Quote from: southdown on August 14, 2014, 12:33:47 PM
It seems ridiculous to me that the West fought a long and bloody war in Iraq, it is now turning into the mother of all messes, and they West don't seem to be doing a great deal.  To me, it begs the question why bother with the long war if you are going to do nothing to stop the place sliding into utter chaos?

Because the US have more sense under Obama than under Bush. Getting involved in a land war would be madness. It would play right into their hands.

ISIS will be crushed under the weight of its own sensationalist killings, Iran, Iraq and Syria and US support. Ironically ISIS is doing more to mend fences between the US and Iran than almost any diplomacy has for the last thirty years. My enemy's enemy and all that.

It's not going to be a big landmass for very long. After that has been reduced they're just another terror organisation. Nothing special.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 14, 2014, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 05:20:14 AM
Despite the continued portrayal in the Western media, Muslims are not total barbarians and religion is not the root of all evil. In fact most Muslims are peace loving affable people and religion is actual the soul of civilisation and the  real reason why we are able to live together and advance society in relative harmony.

ISIS are not representative of Islam in any way and they're proclamation to reestablish a caliphate is laughable and utter nonsense. Their uncompromising radicalism is more representative of the Third Reich or the Khymer Rouge.  The Muslim caliphates of the Ottoman and Moorish empires that they refer to were civilisations that lasted and thrived for centuries based on principles of harmony and inclusion,  that lead to a cohesive society were people from various backgrounds were able to live as relative equals and thus giving full contribution to society. Christians, Jews, Muslims & a few other groups besides all lived together peacefully. If you've ever been to Cordoba or Granada in Spain and you will be able to see the magnificence of Moorish architecture.

"But where are they now?" I hear you ask! Well the Moors gradually got more exclusive to non Muslims which ultimately lead to their demise. The Ottomans had a similar long term slide more to do with the fragmented nature of their empire but the nail in their coffin was the rise of nationalism. The British and French empires spread the notion of nationalism throughout the Middle East basically based on the principle that all people and cultures need their own fatherland in which to exist and thrive properly. It was of course nonsense as all these people had been living and thriving together for centuries. However it struck a cord and lead to the Arab Uprising in WW1 and the ultimate downfall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ironically enough for the British and French the sowing of this seed lead to the disintegration of their own empires very shortly afterwards

Lebanon is the perfect example of how nationalism doesn't work all those people in Lebanon Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Druze & Maronites lived together in relative peace and prosperity for centuries, cue nationislm and some people within each groups start to believe that Lebanon is their country and a brutal civil war breaks out where these people begin to butcher their neighbours. The idea of nationalism also lead to the notion that Jews required a homeland which lead to the them taking over what the Palestians reckoned was their homeland and the subsequent conflict there.

Also Saudi Arabia is often cited as a country where Islam is practiced in its truest form using the laws that were handed straight down from the beginning of Islam. This is utter tosh. 90years ago 90%of Saudi Arabians lived a nomadic lifestyle and their current laws of keeping women hidden and swift brutal justice has more to do with the brutal neccesity of living in such a way. To compare them to the standard of a western liberal democracy which has been a settled society refining its rules laws for thousands of years is ludicrous. 

You only have to look our own conflict to see what that it the idea of belonging to a homeland that caused conflict not religion.
The idea of nationalism is deeply ingrained in Western culture that we refuse to look at the problems it causes as we take it for granted its just the way it is.

The assault from the media to place the world's problems on religion is incorrect and fails to recognise the role that  religion plays in society. Religion gives us principles and even a way of thinking that will allow us to live fuller lives in which will allow us to grow and our neighbours to grow as individuals and as a society. Even those who say they have no religion in the West are actually living to the Principles of Christianity. When I look at people who I know who are living closest to the principles of Christianity they are the happiest and best loved people I know.

So don't roll out the fashionable "Its all religions fault" when there is conflict in the world because it just ain't the case!

Excellent post but I do think religion does get hijacked by other agendas, including nationalism. Often the idea of a homeland or nation breaks down on religious lines so while religion is possibly not the initial cause it is certainly part of the equation.

Actually nationalism is the idea of a homeland for an ethnicity not a religion.

Ethnicity is basically a group of people that are linked through culture, race, religion and customs. You can blame all of these things instead of nationalism. But nationalism in some form or another is actually the root cause of most conflicts in the World outside of Africa.

Most religions promote peace, harmony, love of thy neighbour, inclusion mercy, understanding, forgiveness, not exactly war inciting traits. I think it would be fair to say if most people followed their religion truly there would be alot less conflict in the world.

Nationalism is basically saying that for your ethnicity to survive and thrive it needs a homeland to do so which is of course not true.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: The Iceman on August 14, 2014, 05:29:15 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 14, 2014, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 05:20:14 AM
Despite the continued portrayal in the Western media, Muslims are not total barbarians and religion is not the root of all evil. In fact most Muslims are peace loving affable people and religion is actual the soul of civilisation and the  real reason why we are able to live together and advance society in relative harmony.

ISIS are not representative of Islam in any way and they're proclamation to reestablish a caliphate is laughable and utter nonsense. Their uncompromising radicalism is more representative of the Third Reich or the Khymer Rouge.  The Muslim caliphates of the Ottoman and Moorish empires that they refer to were civilisations that lasted and thrived for centuries based on principles of harmony and inclusion,  that lead to a cohesive society were people from various backgrounds were able to live as relative equals and thus giving full contribution to society. Christians, Jews, Muslims & a few other groups besides all lived together peacefully. If you've ever been to Cordoba or Granada in Spain and you will be able to see the magnificence of Moorish architecture.

"But where are they now?" I hear you ask! Well the Moors gradually got more exclusive to non Muslims which ultimately lead to their demise. The Ottomans had a similar long term slide more to do with the fragmented nature of their empire but the nail in their coffin was the rise of nationalism. The British and French empires spread the notion of nationalism throughout the Middle East basically based on the principle that all people and cultures need their own fatherland in which to exist and thrive properly. It was of course nonsense as all these people had been living and thriving together for centuries. However it struck a cord and lead to the Arab Uprising in WW1 and the ultimate downfall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ironically enough for the British and French the sowing of this seed lead to the disintegration of their own empires very shortly afterwards

Lebanon is the perfect example of how nationalism doesn't work all those people in Lebanon Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Druze & Maronites lived together in relative peace and prosperity for centuries, cue nationislm and some people within each groups start to believe that Lebanon is their country and a brutal civil war breaks out where these people begin to butcher their neighbours. The idea of nationalism also lead to the notion that Jews required a homeland which lead to the them taking over what the Palestians reckoned was their homeland and the subsequent conflict there.

Also Saudi Arabia is often cited as a country where Islam is practiced in its truest form using the laws that were handed straight down from the beginning of Islam. This is utter tosh. 90years ago 90%of Saudi Arabians lived a nomadic lifestyle and their current laws of keeping women hidden and swift brutal justice has more to do with the brutal neccesity of living in such a way. To compare them to the standard of a western liberal democracy which has been a settled society refining its rules laws for thousands of years is ludicrous. 

You only have to look our own conflict to see what that it the idea of belonging to a homeland that caused conflict not religion.
The idea of nationalism is deeply ingrained in Western culture that we refuse to look at the problems it causes as we take it for granted its just the way it is.

The assault from the media to place the world's problems on religion is incorrect and fails to recognise the role that  religion plays in society. Religion gives us principles and even a way of thinking that will allow us to live fuller lives in which will allow us to grow and our neighbours to grow as individuals and as a society. Even those who say they have no religion in the West are actually living to the Principles of Christianity. When I look at people who I know who are living closest to the principles of Christianity they are the happiest and best loved people I know.

So don't roll out the fashionable "Its all religions fault" when there is conflict in the world because it just ain't the case!

Excellent post but I do think religion does get hijacked by other agendas, including nationalism. Often the idea of a homeland or nation breaks down on religious lines so while religion is possibly not the initial cause it is certainly part of the equation.

Actually nationalism is the idea of a homeland for an ethnicity not a religion.

Ethnicity is basically a group of people that are linked through culture, race, religion and customs. You can blame all of these things instead of nationalism. But nationalism in some form or another is actually the root cause of most conflicts in the World outside of Africa.

Most religions promote peace, harmony, love of thy neighbour, inclusion mercy, understanding, forgiveness, not exactly war inciting traits. I think it would be fair to say if most people followed their religion truly there would be alot less conflict in the world.

Nationalism is basically saying that for your ethnicity to survive and thrive it needs a homeland to do so which is of course not true.
great contribution there OJ!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: lynchbhoy on August 14, 2014, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 14, 2014, 01:02:15 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 13, 2014, 11:56:18 PM

Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)


Ah that's great. They've moved on from killing to molesting and homophobia.
I'm worried that you might not be joking - and you are in a position of 'educator'

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Syferus on August 14, 2014, 06:33:34 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 14, 2014, 06:00:01 PM
Quote from: ONeill on August 14, 2014, 01:02:15 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 13, 2014, 11:56:18 PM

Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)


Ah that's great. They've moved on from killing to molesting and homophobia.
I'm worried that you might not be joking - and you are in a position of 'educator'

You wouldn't catch Paul Galvin saying that stuff.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: mylestheslasher on August 14, 2014, 07:41:32 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 13, 2014, 11:56:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 13, 2014, 10:29:44 PM
Religion is the root of all evil. These guys are vermin but I'm afraid the vermin are not restricted to one religion, I am sure you could draw up a good list of christian groups that are fighting too. The unfortunate thing is that this is the b**tard children of the west, the failed reasoning of my enemies enemy is my friend policy.

Look at Egypt. A muslim government elected in democratic elections. A military coup sponsored by the yanks and the dictators are back in power. The net result - radical Islam will flourish.
Fcuk sake Myles
You might not like or have time for religion
But I don't know of any other religion that's perpetrating such war/ethnic cleansing/ genocide etc like this 
Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)

I think it's Israel not the Jewish religion that is responsible for most of the hassle in their region!

I'd hope that this insurgency is the last actions of a religion going a bit mad before it stabilizes.
However I'm not sure who or what will stabilize it!
The decent muslim folk seem too afraid to stand up to the warmongers.

If unattested, this third world problem may arrive at our first world doorstep soon!

No- I don't have ideas on how to quell it!

Are you serious!!

Do you remember the Serbia/Bosnia war. Christians perpetrating mass murder against muslims. Lebanon, a corrupt christian minority with their Israeli allies killing muslims.

What about America invasion of Iraq and of Afghanistan. USA is a christian government, Bush a fundamentalists every bit as brain dead as the fundamentalists of Islam.

Today islamic extremists may be the agressor in most cases but I wouldnt be too quick to let the peace loving christian religion of the hook.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 08:42:27 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 14, 2014, 07:41:32 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 13, 2014, 11:56:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 13, 2014, 10:29:44 PM
Religion is the root of all evil. These guys are vermin but I'm afraid the vermin are not restricted to one religion, I am sure you could draw up a good list of christian groups that are fighting too. The unfortunate thing is that this is the b**tard children of the west, the failed reasoning of my enemies enemy is my friend policy.

Look at Egypt. A muslim government elected in democratic elections. A military coup sponsored by the yanks and the dictators are back in power. The net result - radical Islam will flourish.
Fcuk sake Myles
You might not like or have time for religion
But I don't know of any other religion that's perpetrating such war/ethnic cleansing/ genocide etc like this 
Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)

I think it's Israel not the Jewish religion that is responsible for most of the hassle in their region!

I'd hope that this insurgency is the last actions of a religion going a bit mad before it stabilizes.
However I'm not sure who or what will stabilize it!
The decent muslim folk seem too afraid to stand up to the warmongers.

If unattested, this third world problem may arrive at our first world doorstep soon!

No- I don't have ideas on how to quell it!

Are you serious!!

Do you remember the Serbia/Bosnia war. Christians perpetrating mass murder against muslims. Lebanon, a corrupt christian minority with their Israeli allies killing muslims.

What about America invasion of Iraq and of Afghanistan. USA is a christian government, Bush a fundamentalists every bit as brain dead as the fundamentalists of Islam.

Today islamic extremists may be the agressor in most cases but I wouldnt be too quick to let the peace loving christian religion of the hook.

You do realise that what you are talking about is nations waging war, or waging war in pursuit of a nation.

Nationalism is the cause of your aforementioned wars not religion.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hardy on August 14, 2014, 09:03:21 PM
If I'm not wrong, ISIS are butchering Christians, Yazidis, atheists and anyone else they consider "infidels" not for their nationality, but for their religion.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 09:17:34 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 14, 2014, 09:03:21 PM
If I'm not wrong, ISIS are butchering Christians, Yazidis, atheists and anyone else they consider "infidels" not for their nationality, but for their religion.

Yes they are and any one else friend or foe that they do not deem suitable for the COUNTRY they are trying to establish.

As I have previously pointed out they have more in common with the Khymer Rouge than anyone else. Their aim is to force their ideals on a population, this as history as shown will inevitably fail.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hardy on August 14, 2014, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 09:17:34 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 14, 2014, 09:03:21 PM
If I'm not wrong, ISIS are butchering Christians, Yazidis, atheists and anyone else they consider "infidels" not for their nationality, but for their religion.

Yes they are and any one else friend or foe that they do not deem suitable for the COUNTRY they are trying to establish.

As I have previously pointed out they have more in common with the Khymer Rouge than anyone else. Their aim is to force their ideals on a population, this as history as shown will inevitably fail.

It's not a country as we understand it that they're trying to establish. It's a "caliphate" - a theocracy.  They are offering the choice to convert or die, not to naturalise or die. They don't have a political philosophy or an an economic ideology that I know of. Religion is what drives their actions.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: magpie seanie on August 15, 2014, 12:10:47 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 14, 2014, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 09:17:34 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 14, 2014, 09:03:21 PM
If I'm not wrong, ISIS are butchering Christians, Yazidis, atheists and anyone else they consider "infidels" not for their nationality, but for their religion.

Yes they are and any one else friend or foe that they do not deem suitable for the COUNTRY they are trying to establish.

As I have previously pointed out they have more in common with the Khymer Rouge than anyone else. Their aim is to force their ideals on a population, this as history as shown will inevitably fail.

It's not a country as we understand it that they're trying to establish. It's a "caliphate" - a theocracy.  They are offering the choice to convert or die, not to naturalise or die. They don't have a political philosophy or an an economic ideology that I know of. Religion is what drives their actions.

I agree with this. Whether it be a warped view of religion or a hijacking of it, you simply cannot say it doesn't motivate or contribute to this and many other conflicts throughout history.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Apparently so on August 15, 2014, 12:14:47 AM
Aye, this ISIS crowd seem to be complete head bangers. Does anyone like them? America, Iran, Britain, the Kurds and both sides in Syria fighting against them

Ignorant people form opinions on an entire religion just because of the likes of ISIS. Its very annoying
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: lynchbhoy on August 15, 2014, 12:22:07 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 14, 2014, 07:41:32 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 13, 2014, 11:56:18 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 13, 2014, 10:29:44 PM
Religion is the root of all evil. These guys are vermin but I'm afraid the vermin are not restricted to one religion, I am sure you could draw up a good list of christian groups that are fighting too. The unfortunate thing is that this is the b**tard children of the west, the failed reasoning of my enemies enemy is my friend policy.

Look at Egypt. A muslim government elected in democratic elections. A military coup sponsored by the yanks and the dictators are back in power. The net result - radical Islam will flourish.
Fcuk sake Myles
You might not like or have time for religion
But I don't know of any other religion that's perpetrating such war/ethnic cleansing/ genocide etc like this 
Not since the crusades for Christianity/Catholicism! ( ok maybe a few outbursts since then)

I think it's Israel not the Jewish religion that is responsible for most of the hassle in their region!

I'd hope that this insurgency is the last actions of a religion going a bit mad before it stabilizes.
However I'm not sure who or what will stabilize it!
The decent muslim folk seem too afraid to stand up to the warmongers.

If unattested, this third world problem may arrive at our first world doorstep soon!

No- I don't have ideas on how to quell it!

Are you serious!!

Do you remember the Serbia/Bosnia war. Christians perpetrating mass murder against muslims. Lebanon, a corrupt christian minority with their Israeli allies killing muslims.

What about America invasion of Iraq and of Afghanistan. USA is a christian government, Bush a fundamentalists every bit as brain dead as the fundamentalists of Islam.

Today islamic extremists may be the agressor in most cases but I wouldnt be too quick to let the peace loving christian religion of the hook.
Ok Myles if you believe your examples good luck to you!

Bosnia/Serbia/Balkans is a tribal way ongoing for centuries. Religion is not at its root.

And bush and USA being Christian and somehow the cause of Iraq etc wars/fights/battles and not strategic oil manipulation .... Well you learn something new every day

Fecking Christians all out attacks on non Christians across the board everywhere it seems - on a par with the Islamic fundamentalists !!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on August 15, 2014, 06:25:27 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 15, 2014, 12:10:47 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 14, 2014, 10:24:46 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 09:17:34 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 14, 2014, 09:03:21 PM
If I'm not wrong, ISIS are butchering Christians, Yazidis, atheists and anyone else they consider "infidels" not for their nationality, but for their religion.

Yes they are and any one else friend or foe that they do not deem suitable for the COUNTRY they are trying to establish.

As I have previously pointed out they have more in common with the Khymer Rouge than anyone else. Their aim is to force their ideals on a population, this as history as shown will inevitably fail.

It's not a country as we understand it that they're trying to establish. It's a "caliphate" - a theocracy.  They are offering the choice to convert or die, not to naturalise or die. They don't have a political philosophy or an an economic ideology that I know of. Religion is what drives their actions.

I agree with this. Whether it be a warped view of religion or a hijacking of it, you simply cannot say it doesn't motivate or contribute to this and many other conflicts throughout history.

I can see where you guys are coming from and no doubt ISIS members would agree with you also ;-).

Firstly there are many different types of countries: monarchies, autocracies, they all have one thing in common nationalism and a democracy or caliphate is no different, what they all no have in common is nationalism. That somehow one ethnic group is better than another.

No matter about all this dramatic talk of a caliphate, ISIS is comprised of mainly young Sunni Arabs who are trying to establish their own state because democracy in Iraq and dictatorship in Syria has left them alienated from power. A Sunni Arab state is the driving force behind this group, they have backed this up with a philosophy of religion in an attempt to justify their actions. But of course their actions are completely contradictory to the teachings of their religion. 

Using Religion to attempt justify your actions does not make religion the cause of war.

One thing I am sure we are agreed on is that ISIS are a bunch of maniacs who are doomed to implode.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Ulick on August 15, 2014, 08:02:24 AM
ISIS are undoubtedly a brutal bunch but what is worrying is the unquestioning willingness you all have to accept every story about them that emerges on LiveLeak and the western press. It is certain that a significant proportion of their stories, pictures and videos are fake and distributed to further the aims of the big western powers. For example, this 'convert or die' thing has been repeated so many times it's now unquestionably accepted as true. However according to those journalists actually in the area it's really that a tax has been imposed on non-Muslims, something like the Church of Ireland tithe which Catholics used to pay here in the 19th century. Unfair yes but a long way from 'convert or die'. Decapitating babies? No evidence so far. Then there's the genocide of those 50k people on top of the mountain which helped deflect so much attention from Gaza, well on the news this morning the Brits and Yanks have called off their rescue mission because well there weren't as many people as they thought and those that are there aren't in quite the dire straits as had been thought. Indeed...
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: dowling on August 16, 2014, 01:59:16 PM
Very well put Ulick.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: haveaharp on August 16, 2014, 02:20:19 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28814633 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-28814633)

So are we to believe this or not ?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trileacman on August 16, 2014, 07:53:38 PM
I like the Kurds, not too different from ourselves. Suffered under the yoke of many regimes and suffered terrible atrocities but didn't take up violence wholesale to settle the scores. So I would have faith in what they reported, always seemed like good enough people down the years.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on August 16, 2014, 11:39:08 PM
I'd love to know more about the links between the Saudis and ISIS.
Forced conversions to Islam have no place in the 21st century, not even in the desert.
But as long as the petrol is required over here Saudi can do what it likes. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Aoise on August 17, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 14, 2014, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 05:20:14 AM
Despite the continued portrayal in the Western media, Muslims are not total barbarians and religion is not the root of all evil. In fact most Muslims are peace loving affable people and religion is actual the soul of civilisation and the  real reason why we are able to live together and advance society in relative harmony.

ISIS are not representative of Islam in any way and they're proclamation to reestablish a caliphate is laughable and utter nonsense. Their uncompromising radicalism is more representative of the Third Reich or the Khymer Rouge.  The Muslim caliphates of the Ottoman and Moorish empires that they refer to were civilisations that lasted and thrived for centuries based on principles of harmony and inclusion,  that lead to a cohesive society were people from various backgrounds were able to live as relative equals and thus giving full contribution to society. Christians, Jews, Muslims & a few other groups besides all lived together peacefully. If you've ever been to Cordoba or Granada in Spain and you will be able to see the magnificence of Moorish architecture.

"But where are they now?" I hear you ask! Well the Moors gradually got more exclusive to non Muslims which ultimately lead to their demise. The Ottomans had a similar long term slide more to do with the fragmented nature of their empire but the nail in their coffin was the rise of nationalism. The British and French empires spread the notion of nationalism throughout the Middle East basically based on the principle that all people and cultures need their own fatherland in which to exist and thrive properly. It was of course nonsense as all these people had been living and thriving together for centuries. However it struck a cord and lead to the Arab Uprising in WW1 and the ultimate downfall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ironically enough for the British and French the sowing of this seed lead to the disintegration of their own empires very shortly afterwards

Lebanon is the perfect example of how nationalism doesn't work all those people in Lebanon Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Druze & Maronites lived together in relative peace and prosperity for centuries, cue nationislm and some people within each groups start to believe that Lebanon is their country and a brutal civil war breaks out where these people begin to butcher their neighbours. The idea of nationalism also lead to the notion that Jews required a homeland which lead to the them taking over what the Palestians reckoned was their homeland and the subsequent conflict there.

Also Saudi Arabia is often cited as a country where Islam is practiced in its truest form using the laws that were handed straight down from the beginning of Islam. This is utter tosh. 90years ago 90%of Saudi Arabians lived a nomadic lifestyle and their current laws of keeping women hidden and swift brutal justice has more to do with the brutal neccesity of living in such a way. To compare them to the standard of a western liberal democracy which has been a settled society refining its rules laws for thousands of years is ludicrous. 

You only have to look our own conflict to see what that it the idea of belonging to a homeland that caused conflict not religion.
The idea of nationalism is deeply ingrained in Western culture that we refuse to look at the problems it causes as we take it for granted its just the way it is.

The assault from the media to place the world's problems on religion is incorrect and fails to recognise the role that  religion plays in society. Religion gives us principles and even a way of thinking that will allow us to live fuller lives in which will allow us to grow and our neighbours to grow as individuals and as a society. Even those who say they have no religion in the West are actually living to the Principles of Christianity. When I look at people who I know who are living closest to the principles of Christianity they are the happiest and best loved people I know.

So don't roll out the fashionable "Its all religions fault" when there is conflict in the world because it just ain't the case!

Excellent post but I do think religion does get hijacked by other agendas, including nationalism. Often the idea of a homeland or nation breaks down on religious lines so while religion is possibly not the initial cause it is certainly part of the equation.

Actually nationalism is the idea of a homeland for an ethnicity not a religion.

Ethnicity is basically a group of people that are linked through culture, race, religion and customs. You can blame all of these things instead of nationalism. But nationalism in some form or another is actually the root cause of most conflicts in the World outside of Africa.

Most religions promote peace, harmony, love of thy neighbour, inclusion mercy, understanding, forgiveness, not exactly war inciting traits. I think it would be fair to say if most people followed their religion truly there would be alot less conflict in the world.

Nationalism is basically saying that for your ethnicity to survive and thrive it needs a homeland to do so which is of course not true.

I would disagree, I would say that Nationalism has been used and manipulated to cause conflicts that are always to the benefit of the oppressor or economic benefactor in the main.  We really do need to learn from what happened in our own country as all other conflicts are not necessarily different.  Human traits don't normally deviate from protection and self/family defence unless its for personal wealth or power and control.  One usually has superiority over another and this is where the vulnerabilities of religion and nationalism come into play - they're easily manipulated and used to cause difference and division - the main tool of the oppressor or benefactor.  Every conflict usually has an economic benefit for one party.  I would argue it is this factor that causes conflicts, Nationalism and religion are just the tools used as the means to an end.

The Irish conflict was portrayed as religious and nationalistic, but this was manna from heaven for those who sought economic gain and power and control.  Empire building and power/greed was the cause, Nationalism was its scapegoat!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: rossiewanderer on August 17, 2014, 09:01:08 AM
Quote from: Ulick on August 15, 2014, 08:02:24 AM
ISIS are undoubtedly a brutal bunch but what is worrying is the unquestioning willingness you all have to accept every story about them that emerges on LiveLeak and the western press. It is certain that a significant proportion of their stories, pictures and videos are fake and distributed to further the aims of the big western powers. For example, this 'convert or die' thing has been repeated so many times it's now unquestionably accepted as true. However according to those journalists actually in the area it's really that a tax has been imposed on non-Muslims, something like the Church of Ireland tithe which Catholics used to pay here in the 19th century. Unfair yes but a long way from 'convert or die'. Decapitating babies? No evidence so far. Then there's the genocide of those 50k people on top of the mountain which helped deflect so much attention from Gaza, well on the news this morning the Brits and Yanks have called off their rescue mission because well there weren't as many people as they thought and those that are there aren't in quite the dire straits as had been thought. Indeed...



"Then there's the genocide of those 50k people on top of the mountain which helped deflect so much attention from Gaza, " What a charming comment about woman, children and civilians being killed.

I hope you find your evidence when you wake up.




Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on August 18, 2014, 03:40:50 AM
Quote from: Aoise on August 17, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 14, 2014, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 05:20:14 AM
Despite the continued portrayal in the Western media, Muslims are not total barbarians and religion is not the root of all evil. In fact most Muslims are peace loving affable people and religion is actual the soul of civilisation and the  real reason why we are able to live together and advance society in relative harmony.

ISIS are not representative of Islam in any way and they're proclamation to reestablish a caliphate is laughable and utter nonsense. Their uncompromising radicalism is more representative of the Third Reich or the Khymer Rouge.  The Muslim caliphates of the Ottoman and Moorish empires that they refer to were civilisations that lasted and thrived for centuries based on principles of harmony and inclusion,  that lead to a cohesive society were people from various backgrounds were able to live as relative equals and thus giving full contribution to society. Christians, Jews, Muslims & a few other groups besides all lived together peacefully. If you've ever been to Cordoba or Granada in Spain and you will be able to see the magnificence of Moorish architecture.

"But where are they now?" I hear you ask! Well the Moors gradually got more exclusive to non Muslims which ultimately lead to their demise. The Ottomans had a similar long term slide more to do with the fragmented nature of their empire but the nail in their coffin was the rise of nationalism. The British and French empires spread the notion of nationalism throughout the Middle East basically based on the principle that all people and cultures need their own fatherland in which to exist and thrive properly. It was of course nonsense as all these people had been living and thriving together for centuries. However it struck a cord and lead to the Arab Uprising in WW1 and the ultimate downfall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ironically enough for the British and French the sowing of this seed lead to the disintegration of their own empires very shortly afterwards

Lebanon is the perfect example of how nationalism doesn't work all those people in Lebanon Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Druze & Maronites lived together in relative peace and prosperity for centuries, cue nationislm and some people within each groups start to believe that Lebanon is their country and a brutal civil war breaks out where these people begin to butcher their neighbours. The idea of nationalism also lead to the notion that Jews required a homeland which lead to the them taking over what the Palestians reckoned was their homeland and the subsequent conflict there.

Also Saudi Arabia is often cited as a country where Islam is practiced in its truest form using the laws that were handed straight down from the beginning of Islam. This is utter tosh. 90years ago 90%of Saudi Arabians lived a nomadic lifestyle and their current laws of keeping women hidden and swift brutal justice has more to do with the brutal neccesity of living in such a way. To compare them to the standard of a western liberal democracy which has been a settled society refining its rules laws for thousands of years is ludicrous. 

You only have to look our own conflict to see what that it the idea of belonging to a homeland that caused conflict not religion.
The idea of nationalism is deeply ingrained in Western culture that we refuse to look at the problems it causes as we take it for granted its just the way it is.

The assault from the media to place the world's problems on religion is incorrect and fails to recognise the role that  religion plays in society. Religion gives us principles and even a way of thinking that will allow us to live fuller lives in which will allow us to grow and our neighbours to grow as individuals and as a society. Even those who say they have no religion in the West are actually living to the Principles of Christianity. When I look at people who I know who are living closest to the principles of Christianity they are the happiest and best loved people I know.

So don't roll out the fashionable "Its all religions fault" when there is conflict in the world because it just ain't the case!

Excellent post but I do think religion does get hijacked by other agendas, including nationalism. Often the idea of a homeland or nation breaks down on religious lines so while religion is possibly not the initial cause it is certainly part of the equation.

Actually nationalism is the idea of a homeland for an ethnicity not a religion.

Ethnicity is basically a group of people that are linked through culture, race, religion and customs. You can blame all of these things instead of nationalism. But nationalism in some form or another is actually the root cause of most conflicts in the World outside of Africa.

Most religions promote peace, harmony, love of thy neighbour, inclusion mercy, understanding, forgiveness, not exactly war inciting traits. I think it would be fair to say if most people followed their religion truly there would be alot less conflict in the world.

Nationalism is basically saying that for your ethnicity to survive and thrive it needs a homeland to do so which is of course not true.

I would disagree, I would say that Nationalism has been used and manipulated to cause conflicts that are always to the benefit of the oppressor or economic benefactor in the main.  We really do need to learn from what happened in our own country as all other conflicts are not necessarily different.  Human traits don't normally deviate from protection and self/family defence unless its for personal wealth or power and control.  One usually has superiority over another and this is where the vulnerabilities of religion and nationalism come into play - they're easily manipulated and used to cause difference and division - the main tool of the oppressor or benefactor.  Every conflict usually has an economic benefit for one party.  I would argue it is this factor that causes conflicts, Nationalism and religion are just the tools used as the means to an end.

The Irish conflict was portrayed as religious and nationalistic, but this was manna from heaven for those who sought economic gain and power and control.  Empire building and power/greed was the cause, Nationalism was its scapegoat!

Hi Aoise

In modern terms Empire building is just a form of nationalism got out of control. I agree that most conflict has economic benefit for one side or the other but the fact that there are sides in the first place battling it out with the intention of a nation state. Take the Balkans as an example no real strong economic benefit for anyone to split but they split anyway.

I have been following the Scottish Independence debate quite closely and one topic that has come up for discussion is the idea of nationalism and that Scottish people's identity and culturedo not necessarily need their own state to survive and thrive. So I started asking myself the same question about Ireland, Irish culture and way of life is thriving at the moment in the North, maybe even more so than in the South. What is the actual need to be part of the South?

Ok so I can hear the die hards labeling me now as traitor or whatever just by merely asking that question. But ask yourself the question about a nation state, why do we need one?. The idea of modern Irish nationalism was born out the oppression of our religion and culture if that risk of suppression of of your way of life is gone, do you actually need an ethnic nation state? Or at least what is the up to date reason for having one?

Now while I accept that it is the political nature of the world at the moment to have a nation state, but the question in an increasingly connected world how much more division can we take? and where will it lead us to?  And what are our alternatives?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: haveaharp on August 18, 2014, 08:38:51 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 18, 2014, 03:40:50 AM
Quote from: Aoise on August 17, 2014, 03:08:19 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 03:48:03 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on August 14, 2014, 10:11:47 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 14, 2014, 05:20:14 AM
Despite the continued portrayal in the Western media, Muslims are not total barbarians and religion is not the root of all evil. In fact most Muslims are peace loving affable people and religion is actual the soul of civilisation and the  real reason why we are able to live together and advance society in relative harmony.

ISIS are not representative of Islam in any way and they're proclamation to reestablish a caliphate is laughable and utter nonsense. Their uncompromising radicalism is more representative of the Third Reich or the Khymer Rouge.  The Muslim caliphates of the Ottoman and Moorish empires that they refer to were civilisations that lasted and thrived for centuries based on principles of harmony and inclusion,  that lead to a cohesive society were people from various backgrounds were able to live as relative equals and thus giving full contribution to society. Christians, Jews, Muslims & a few other groups besides all lived together peacefully. If you've ever been to Cordoba or Granada in Spain and you will be able to see the magnificence of Moorish architecture.

"But where are they now?" I hear you ask! Well the Moors gradually got more exclusive to non Muslims which ultimately lead to their demise. The Ottomans had a similar long term slide more to do with the fragmented nature of their empire but the nail in their coffin was the rise of nationalism. The British and French empires spread the notion of nationalism throughout the Middle East basically based on the principle that all people and cultures need their own fatherland in which to exist and thrive properly. It was of course nonsense as all these people had been living and thriving together for centuries. However it struck a cord and lead to the Arab Uprising in WW1 and the ultimate downfall of the Ottoman Empire.

Ironically enough for the British and French the sowing of this seed lead to the disintegration of their own empires very shortly afterwards

Lebanon is the perfect example of how nationalism doesn't work all those people in Lebanon Jews, Shias, Sunnis, Druze & Maronites lived together in relative peace and prosperity for centuries, cue nationislm and some people within each groups start to believe that Lebanon is their country and a brutal civil war breaks out where these people begin to butcher their neighbours. The idea of nationalism also lead to the notion that Jews required a homeland which lead to the them taking over what the Palestians reckoned was their homeland and the subsequent conflict there.

Also Saudi Arabia is often cited as a country where Islam is practiced in its truest form using the laws that were handed straight down from the beginning of Islam. This is utter tosh. 90years ago 90%of Saudi Arabians lived a nomadic lifestyle and their current laws of keeping women hidden and swift brutal justice has more to do with the brutal neccesity of living in such a way. To compare them to the standard of a western liberal democracy which has been a settled society refining its rules laws for thousands of years is ludicrous. 

You only have to look our own conflict to see what that it the idea of belonging to a homeland that caused conflict not religion.
The idea of nationalism is deeply ingrained in Western culture that we refuse to look at the problems it causes as we take it for granted its just the way it is.

The assault from the media to place the world's problems on religion is incorrect and fails to recognise the role that  religion plays in society. Religion gives us principles and even a way of thinking that will allow us to live fuller lives in which will allow us to grow and our neighbours to grow as individuals and as a society. Even those who say they have no religion in the West are actually living to the Principles of Christianity. When I look at people who I know who are living closest to the principles of Christianity they are the happiest and best loved people I know.

So don't roll out the fashionable "Its all religions fault" when there is conflict in the world because it just ain't the case!

Excellent post but I do think religion does get hijacked by other agendas, including nationalism. Often the idea of a homeland or nation breaks down on religious lines so while religion is possibly not the initial cause it is certainly part of the equation.

Actually nationalism is the idea of a homeland for an ethnicity not a religion.

Ethnicity is basically a group of people that are linked through culture, race, religion and customs. You can blame all of these things instead of nationalism. But nationalism in some form or another is actually the root cause of most conflicts in the World outside of Africa.

Most religions promote peace, harmony, love of thy neighbour, inclusion mercy, understanding, forgiveness, not exactly war inciting traits. I think it would be fair to say if most people followed their religion truly there would be alot less conflict in the world.

Nationalism is basically saying that for your ethnicity to survive and thrive it needs a homeland to do so which is of course not true.

I would disagree, I would say that Nationalism has been used and manipulated to cause conflicts that are always to the benefit of the oppressor or economic benefactor in the main.  We really do need to learn from what happened in our own country as all other conflicts are not necessarily different.  Human traits don't normally deviate from protection and self/family defence unless its for personal wealth or power and control.  One usually has superiority over another and this is where the vulnerabilities of religion and nationalism come into play - they're easily manipulated and used to cause difference and division - the main tool of the oppressor or benefactor.  Every conflict usually has an economic benefit for one party.  I would argue it is this factor that causes conflicts, Nationalism and religion are just the tools used as the means to an end.

The Irish conflict was portrayed as religious and nationalistic, but this was manna from heaven for those who sought economic gain and power and control.  Empire building and power/greed was the cause, Nationalism was its scapegoat!



What is the actual need to be part of the South?




So we can make the South Irish again.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hardy on August 18, 2014, 11:38:02 AM
Let's not be English, French or German any more. Let's be European. No, not European, let's be men. Let's be humanity. All we have to do is get rid of one last piece of egocentricity - patriotism.
– Victor Hugo.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Syferus on August 18, 2014, 02:59:38 PM
What about the people on other planets and other universes? Bucking planetist.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: haveaharp on August 18, 2014, 03:42:41 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 18, 2014, 11:38:02 AM
Let's not be English, French or German any more. Let's be European. No, not European, let's be men. Let's be humanity. All we have to do is get rid of one last piece of egocentricity - patriotism.
– Victor Hugo.

An intelligent hell would be better than a stupid paradise. Same fella.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: easytiger95 on August 18, 2014, 05:54:13 PM
ISIS are actually following a well trodden path. Islam itself is not the problem, the militant strain within Islam to label others "infidels" - much like the twisted neo-con strain of American exceptionalism/christianity -  is. However it is a zero sum game and ISIS can only lose in the long term.

The example to compare them with is the Algerian insurgency in the late 80s and early 90s. Once you have labelled Christians, Jews, Sunnis and Yazidis as infidels, what do you do then? In Algeria, people who professed to believe the same things were declared infidel for not believing it as strongly as the leadership - so eventually they turned on themselves in horrible series of atrocities. Now the same thing has happened to Al Qaeda in Syria.

People talk about Islamo-facism, but it is probably far more apposite to think about groups like Al Qaeda and now ISIS like the Bolsheviks. They are small elite groups, far beyond the mainstream of Islamic opinion, but using extreme violence to set the agenda. It is a very old script, but it always ends the same way - without popular support they will end up eating themselves, and in a movement that defines itself by ranking belief and unbelief, popular support is impossible to secure.

The terrible problem is trying to limit the amount of people they destroy whilst destroying themselves.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: imtommygunn on August 19, 2014, 10:25:04 PM
Reading a story about isis beheading an american journalist they captured two years ago and the video is available online >:(

A journalist? What do these guys think that will achieve and making it public too.

Disgusting.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: midLouth on August 19, 2014, 11:49:39 PM
They also have another American journalist awaiting the same faith. Cowards keeping their faces covered.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on August 20, 2014, 12:39:52 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 19, 2014, 10:25:04 PM
Reading a story about isis beheading an american journalist they captured two years ago and the video is available online >:(

A journalist? What do these guys think that will achieve and making it public too.

Disgusting.

As long as they have apologists like Ulick on their side then they will continue to ramp up the barbarity. People like Ulick will always give them a pass.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Linkbox on August 20, 2014, 04:33:16 AM
Horrific stuff. The video is on liveleak. The second guy is Steven Joel Sotloff from Time magazine. Jesus it's hard to even imagine being in that situation. The ISIS guy had a British accent too. Unbelievable.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: southdown on August 20, 2014, 11:10:28 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-20959228

Sure the Saudi government have no issues with beheadings, but they are great fellas in the eyes of the West.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on August 20, 2014, 11:34:03 AM
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/20/uk-isis-extremists-most-vicious-iraq-syria-expert
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on August 28, 2014, 09:36:07 AM
RTÉ are saying IS have taken over a Syrian border crossing into the Golan Heights, will IS open up a new front on the Israelis?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on August 28, 2014, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 28, 2014, 09:36:07 AM
RTÉ are saying IS have taken over a Syrian border crossing into the Golan Heights, will IS open up a new front on the Israelis?
It would be interesting if they retook the Golan but I think they are morel likely to be supported by Israel under the logic that my enemy's enemy is my friend.

Assad is playing a very cynical game- he's happy for ISIS to slaughter the moderate opposition and losing an airbase and 500 soldiers was justified by getting the
Yanks to bomb ISIS this week.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on August 28, 2014, 10:35:18 AM
Quote from: seafoid on August 28, 2014, 10:28:15 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on August 28, 2014, 09:36:07 AM
RTÉ are saying IS have taken over a Syrian border crossing into the Golan Heights, will IS open up a new front on the Israelis?
It would be interesting if they retook the Golan but I think they are morel likely to be supported by Israel under the logic that my enemy's enemy is my friend.

Assad is playing a very cynical game- he's happy for ISIS to slaughter the moderate opposition and losing an airbase and 500 soldiers was justified by getting the
Yanks to bomb ISIS this week.

Well Assad is now a friend of the West since IS started taking over oil fields in Northern Iraq, so that logic applies to all and sundry.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Denn Forever on September 05, 2014, 10:42:59 AM
Now they want to make Spain an Islamic state like it was before.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/01/ISIS-Releases-Map-of-5-Year-Plan-to-Spread-from-Spain-to-China
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: AZOffaly on September 05, 2014, 10:46:38 AM
Will we still be able to go to the Al-Gharb?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Sidney on September 05, 2014, 10:47:25 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on September 05, 2014, 10:42:59 AM
Now they want to make Spain an Islamic state like it was before.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/01/ISIS-Releases-Map-of-5-Year-Plan-to-Spread-from-Spain-to-China
The "logic" of the concept of creating an Islamic state in Spain uses pretty much the same "logic" as that which created the state of Israel.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 10:48:56 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on September 05, 2014, 10:42:59 AM
Now they want to make Spain an Islamic state like it was before.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/01/ISIS-Releases-Map-of-5-Year-Plan-to-Spread-from-Spain-to-China
One of the things the Spanish kings did after the Reconquista from the Arabs was to emphasise the Spanish love for Pork to distinguish the people from the Moors.

ISIS have no chance of putting the Spaniards off their chorizo.
Spanish supermarkets have at least a quarter of their shop space devoted to the stuff. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Aaron Boone on September 05, 2014, 11:23:13 AM
Quote from: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 10:48:56 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on September 05, 2014, 10:42:59 AM
Now they want to make Spain an Islamic state like it was before.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/01/ISIS-Releases-Map-of-5-Year-Plan-to-Spread-from-Spain-to-China
One of the things the Spanish kings did after the Reconquista from the Arabs was to emphasise the Spanish love for Pork to distinguish the people from the Moors.

ISIS have no chance of putting the Spaniards off their chorizo.
Spanish supermarkets have at least a quarter of their shop space devoted to the stuff.

Would La Liga coverage on Sky Sports 5 be at risk? That is the big question.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hardy on September 05, 2014, 11:39:01 AM
Roast suckling pig - mmmmm. Highlight of any visit to Spain.

Why didn't we think of the Spanish kings' idea? The jihadists aren't afraid of death - they seek it. So don't target them with rockets; bomb them with pig carcasses, sausages, black pudding, crubeens and watch them run like the tans like hell away from Killeshandra.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: AZOffaly on September 05, 2014, 11:43:39 AM
Ah yeah. The Offal of the IRA.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hardy on September 05, 2014, 11:47:16 AM
Salamic jihad.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: AZOffaly on September 05, 2014, 11:48:12 AM
That's hamateurish.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Myles Na G. on September 05, 2014, 12:09:31 PM
Not to mention an insult to Islamb.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 03:01:03 PM
One thing I don't get about ISIS is why the Iraqi army ran away from Mosul.
I wonder what the bigger story is

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/fcc3f3f8-f315-11e3-91d8-00144feabdc0.html
Last updated: June 13, 2014 8:23 pm
Residents tell of army's betrayal in face of Isis advance in Iraq


The Islamist militants' capture of Mosul, which began Iraq's slide into a new war, may have been sudden, locals say, but it should not have been a surprise.
On a dusty stretch of highway just outside the city, an army truck emblazoned with the phrase "loyalty to the state" has been abandoned. It is a fitting symbol, one Mosul official says, for the betrayal he and many residents believe was behind the stunning collapse of the army as thousands of soldiers fled without a fight.
•"We had known for over a month that militants were massing outside Mosul and so did the army," said a tired-looking man at a roadside café, who asked not to be named. "A week before the attack began, we told them there were some strange movements outside the city. The army gave no reply."

At the last military point between Erbil, part of Iraq's semi-autonomous Kurdistan Regional Government, and Mosul, Kurdish peshmerga forces point to a blue 'Gazprom' billboard 500 metres away, where they say the control of the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (known as Isis) now begins.
Fighters posted at anti-aircraft guns point to trenches they began building well before the attack, which they too said they had warned Iraqi officials was coming.
"The only shocking part is how quickly their army collapsed," said Haydar Sadiq, a peshmerga lieutenant. "I stopped one officer who drove through our checkpoint on a flatbed truck with 15 men. I asked him why he left, why he and his men didn't have their weapons."
"He told me: 'This is all the army I have left. The head of military missions in Mosul has told the army to flee. Mosul has been sold to Isis.'"
The sudden fall of Mosul this week and the continued push by Sunni militants towards Baghdad have shocked Iraq and the world and sparked fears that the country could fragment along ethnic and religious lines.

Initial explanations of Mosul's fall focused not just on Isis's surprisingly sophisticated attack – which has continued with its forces marching on toward Baghdad – but sectarian fears. The army's mostly Shia soldiers fled, unwilling to fight for a city of resentful Sunni residents.
Since the US occupation of Iraq in 2003 that toppled Saddam Hussein, the country has been mired in a sectarian power struggle between the disempowered Sunni Muslim minority and the Shia-dominated government of Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister.
The officer told me: 'This is all the army I have left. The head of military missions in Mosul has told the army to flee. Mosul has been sold to Isis
- Peshmerga lieutenant

But most locals and peshmerga forces say the real reason for the militants' success was a combination of resentful Sunnis joining the Isis fighters, and the inexplicable withdrawal of military leaders.Many people, including Kurdish fighters and the Mosul official, cited the head of military operations, Fareeq Aboud Bandar, a former Ba'athist, Mahdi al-Gharawi, the head of Nineveh's armed forces, and Ali Ghaydar, the head of Iraq's ground forces.
No one is sure whether the men were bought off or had other motives, and Kurdish forces say the men fled toward Erbil and disappeared.
The rest of the Isis takeover remains a point of debate and conflicting interpretations.
At a crowded peshmerga checkpoint on the hot, dry plains headed toward Erbil, signs of the chaos from the first few days of Isis's takeover remain. Trampled high heels and children's shoes litter the ground – remnants of people who scrambled on to trucks to escape a catastrophe locals believe was long in the making and signals a messy future that could lead to the unravelling of their state.
After years of oppression by Maliki's Shia government, of being forced to make it work, I just want to live in peace. The Isis militants are working to get us regular electricity and water, which the government never did
- Layla Daloul, local resident
"The number of Isis fighters that came in were in the hundreds, but they were joined by many more people in black masks," said Mohammed, a sweet vendor. "Many people were just happy to take up arms with them. This was the beginning of a Sunni revolution."
The Mosul official says he was with the local governor on Monday when the militants' sporadic clashes with police forces devolved into a swift, full-scale takeover.
"Isis drove a rigged oil tanker in front of the Mosul hotel and blew it up. Police and army morale crumbled and Isis started to advance. An hour later, the army started to withdraw," he said.
"At 5pm I called Gharawi and told him Isis was 500 metres from the governor's office. He said: 'no problem, it's easy'. We called again after an hour and said now they're 200 metres away. Same reply."
About 30 minutes later, he said, the top three military officials had fled the city. Soldiers started dropping their weapons and looking for civilian clothes in which to flee.
Residents believe many men in the city, long an insurgent stronghold, joined Isis. Some say they were Ba'athist sleeper cells. Others insist they were Sunni civilians happy to help "liberate us from the army jailkeepers".
Isis has appointed a new governor for Mosul: Hashem al-Jamani, a former Ba'athist officer, according to residents and the peshmerga. Kurdish fighters say their intelligence suggests that Isis has been recruiting to form a military force for the city.

"It's obvious that the top officers in the army made a deal with the terrorists. Whether it was out of money or conviction, I don't know. But they're working to divide this territory," said Ayyad al-Ghareeb, another young man waiting at the peshmerga checkpoint. He pulled up a bandage wrapped around his arm, covering a tattoo of a two-pronged sword of the prophet's cousin Ali, a common Shia symbol.
"I had to find a way to hide it so we could get out," he said. "Mosul is the beginning of the sectarian division of Iraq."
Residents gathered around him agree – but unlike him, most of them seem relieved.
"After years of oppression by Maliki's Shia government, of being forced to make it work, I just want to live in peace," said Layla Daloul, wearing a long black cloak and veil. "The Isis militants are working to get us regular electricity and water, which the government never did. They've taken down all the army checkpoints."
I had to find a way to hide it [tattoo of the Sword of Ali] so we could get out. Mosul is the beginning of the sectarian division of Iraq
- Ayyad al-Ghareeb
On Thursday night, the militants running Mosul marched through the streets of Mosul and residents say they went out to greet them in celebration.
"People threw them chocolates," said one woman in a white veil, heading into the Kurdistan region. Like many fleeing on Friday, she said she was not fleeing because of the militants, but because she feared that Mr Maliki would launch air strikes.
But even as hundreds poured out of the area, dozens were driving in, most of them young men saying they were checking on their homes.
Among those heading back was a scrawny young man in a long white robe, Khalil al-Tai, who said he was a Sunni soldier based in Tikrit, Hussein's home town. He fled when Isis militants approached and is now heading to Mosul, his home city.
"I left my weapons and my gun [at the base in Tikrit]. The revolutionaries liberating the Sunnis can have it if they want to use it," he said.
Asked what he did with his identification card, which could betray he was a deserting soldier, he smiled.
"I ripped up my identification card. It means nothing to me now. My people don't support this state."
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: NAG1 on September 05, 2014, 03:14:49 PM
I know there has been a bit of light hearted banter on here, but to ask a more pertinent question and one that I have thought about for a while.

In the future, do you/ we think that it is going to come down to an all out Islam (extremists) vs Christians et al (is the loosest terms) war?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: AZOffaly on September 05, 2014, 03:23:01 PM
What about China, i.e. the Commies?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Zip Code on September 05, 2014, 03:41:18 PM
And the Unionists?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 03:49:09 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on September 05, 2014, 03:14:49 PM
I know there has been a bit of light hearted banter on here, but to ask a more pertinent question and one that I have thought about for a while.

In the future, do you/ we think that it is going to come down to an all out Islam (extremists) vs Christians et al (is the loosest terms) war?
I don't think the Muslim people would be interested. The West wants war in the Middle East so the states stay weak
and the oil keeps flowing. Resource wars between China and its neighbours could happen.
China owns a lot of American bonds so is not going to risk that .
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 05, 2014, 04:04:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 03:49:09 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on September 05, 2014, 03:14:49 PM
I know there has been a bit of light hearted banter on here, but to ask a more pertinent question and one that I have thought about for a while.

In the future, do you/ we think that it is going to come down to an all out Islam (extremists) vs Christians et al (is the loosest terms) war?
I don't think the Muslim people would be interested. The West wants war in the Middle East so the states stay weak
and the oil keeps flowing. Resource wars between China and its neighbours could happen.
China owns a lot of American bonds so is not going to risk that .

We all know what Seafoid would take,  given that he is such a Hamas/Jihadi apologist.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 04:07:07 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 05, 2014, 04:04:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 03:49:09 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on September 05, 2014, 03:14:49 PM
I know there has been a bit of light hearted banter on here, but to ask a more pertinent question and one that I have thought about for a while.

In the future, do you/ we think that it is going to come down to an all out Islam (extremists) vs Christians et al (is the loosest terms) war?
I don't think the Muslim people would be interested. The West wants war in the Middle East so the states stay weak
and the oil keeps flowing. Resource wars between China and its neighbours could happen.
China owns a lot of American bonds so is not going to risk that .

We all know what Seafoid would take,  given that he is such a Hamas/Jihadi apologist.

Hamas isn't Jihadi. Tsk . 

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 05, 2014, 04:21:12 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 04:07:07 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 05, 2014, 04:04:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 03:49:09 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on September 05, 2014, 03:14:49 PM
I know there has been a bit of light hearted banter on here, but to ask a more pertinent question and one that I have thought about for a while.

In the future, do you/ we think that it is going to come down to an all out Islam (extremists) vs Christians et al (is the loosest terms) war?
I don't think the Muslim people would be interested. The West wants war in the Middle East so the states stay weak
and the oil keeps flowing. Resource wars between China and its neighbours could happen.
China owns a lot of American bonds so is not going to risk that .

We all know what Seafoid would take,  given that he is such a Hamas/Jihadi apologist.

Hamas isn't Jihadi. Tsk .

Yeah they are.

Apologists like you are a big part of the reason that these scumbags have free rein to do as they like , murdering, beheading etc.
You spend your time criticizing the west and following your own twisted anti-Semitic creed. You said a few months back that you support the  "creation of a sunni state in Iraq" but you have never clarified what you mean....I think it is clear to all now what you mean.

Its time people got real as to what you are really about.


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Over the Bar on September 06, 2014, 12:02:45 AM
To me, what ISIS did to the 2 journalists was disgusting.  To most people in the world beheading is simply inhuman and barbaric.

Saudi Arabia beheaded more than 20 men and women in August for their 'crimes' yet Saudi are strong US and UK allies benefiting from arms and jet airplanes from both.

Why are Saudi's public beheadings more acceptable to the UK, USA and other western democracies then?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 06, 2014, 12:23:55 AM
Quote from: Over the Bar on September 06, 2014, 12:02:45 AM
To me, what ISIS did to the 2 journalists was disgusting.  To most people in the world beheading is simply inhuman and barbaric.

Saudi Arabia beheaded more than 20 men and women in August for their 'crimes' yet Saudi are strong US and UK allies benefiting from arms and jet airplanes from both.

Why are Saudi's public beheadings more acceptable to the UK, USA and other western democracies then?

The west is not responsible for what happens in Saudi Arabia. The west must coexist and deal with whatever regimes/theocracies/tyrannies Arab/Islamic states impose on themselves.This is one of the great lies that Jihadi apologists force on western civilization, that it is somehow to blame for their fuckwittery. This must stop. It must not be tolerated anymore. Anyone perpetuating this line must be called out.

Western civilization is superior to Islamic Jihadi barbarism. We must not be dictated to by these backward extremists. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: rossiewanderer on September 06, 2014, 12:37:15 AM
Oil would you think?

The work shy/professional protesting/ Hippy brigade will tell you that the reason for Islamic barbarism is careful manipulation on the part of the west to secure future oil reserves.
ISIS now control vast Oil reserves and have more money than Man Utd, alot more. around 6 billion.Not bad for a group of like minded savages who doctor the Koran to legitimise their thirst for blood.

Apart from the vast swathes of humanity and children ISIS have killed they carry thousands of sex slaves which is ironic considering they kill homosexuals yet indulge among themselves after a hard days killing.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 06, 2014, 12:41:48 AM
Quote from: seafoid on September 05, 2014, 10:48:56 AM
Quote from: Denn Forever on September 05, 2014, 10:42:59 AM
Now they want to make Spain an Islamic state like it was before.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/2014/07/01/ISIS-Releases-Map-of-5-Year-Plan-to-Spread-from-Spain-to-China
One of the things the Spanish kings did after the Reconquista from the Arabs was to emphasise the Spanish love for Pork to distinguish the people from the Moors.

ISIS have no chance of putting the Spaniards off their chorizo.
Spanish supermarkets have at least a quarter of their shop space devoted to the stuff.

No doubt you celebrated when those bombs went off in Madrid. The sooner Europe wakes up to the threat that Jihadi apologists like you pose the better.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 06, 2014, 01:06:37 AM
Quote from: rossiewanderer on September 06, 2014, 12:37:15 AM
Oil would you think?

The work shy/professional protesting/ Hippy brigade will tell you that the reason for Islamic barbarism is careful manipulation on the part of the west to secure future oil reserves.
ISIS now control vast Oil reserves and have more money than Man Utd, alot more. around 6 billion.Not bad for a group of like minded savages who doctor the Koran to legitimise their thirst for blood.

Apart from the vast swathes of humanity and children ISIS have killed they carry thousands of sex slaves which is ironic considering they kill homosexuals yet indulge among themselves after a hard days killing.

Indeed, this preoccupation with the decadence of the west whilst indulging in the most extreme moral depravities is a feature of Jihadi Islamic extremists and their apologists as evidenced by Seafoids , shall we say, very particular taste in Tel Aviv nightlife. The fact that he purrs in admiration of the Iranian regimes "rationality" while they hang gay 16 year olds tells you all you need to know about his moral compass.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 06, 2014, 02:53:56 AM
The first mistake we make is apologizing for what we believe in.
Always remember our women have a voice. Our girls should not have to justify their voice in society.

This is how women are described when they dare go against the jihadi message

Quoteseafoid says:   
March 3, 2014 at 4:42 pm   
I bet Scarlett has her own mikvah to get rid of all those menstrual impurities.

Quoteseafoid says:   
March 3, 2014 at 12:47 pm   
Did Scarlett strip down to her undies and lick a map of Israel at AIPAC ? Or am I confusing her with Miley? I often get my slappers mixed up .


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: orangeman on September 23, 2014, 06:24:42 AM
US and the allies including some Arab states allegedly have started to strike inside Syria. The brown stuff has hit the fan.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 23, 2014, 08:41:26 AM


The romance of terror
People don't become terrorists because they are poor or uneducated, schooled in radical religion or brainwashed
•   o   Scott Atran
o   
o   theguardian.com, Monday 19 July 2010 13.15 BST
   
The question: Can you do counterterrorism without theology?
Especially for young men, mortal combat in the service of a great cause provides the ultimate adventure and maximum esteem in the eyes of many and, most dearly, in the hearts of their peers. One heroic cause for disaffected souls in the world today is jihad, through which anyone from anywhere can make a mark against the most powerful countries and armies in the history of the world. How glorious to cut off Goliath's head with a box cutter – or at least cause him a big headache.
Yet, although many millions of people express sympathy with al-Qaida's viral social movement or other forms of violent political expression that abuse religion and support terrorism, relatively few willingly use violence. Following a 2001-2007 survey of 35 predominantly Muslim nations, a Gallup study estimated that 7% of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims thought that the 9/11 attacks were "completely justified". That's about 100 million people; however, of these many millions who express support for violence against the outgroup, there are only thousands willing to actually commit violence.
This is also true in the Muslim diaspora, which provides the overwhelming majority of al-Qaida followers. In the European Union, fewer than 3,000 suspects have been imprisoned for jihadi activities out of a Muslim population of perhaps 20 million. In the United States, fewer than 500 suspects have been arrested for having anything remotely to do with support for holy war against America after 9/11, with less than 100 cases being considered serious out of an immigrant Muslim population of more than two million.
If so many millions support jihad, why are only relatively few willing to kill and die for it? Although heroic action for a great cause is the ultimate end, the path to violent extremism is mostly a matter of individual motivations and small group dynamics in specific historical contexts. Those who go on to violence generally do so by way of family and friends within specific "scenes": neighbourhoods, schools (classes, dorms), workplaces, common leisure activities (soccer, barbershop, café), and, increasingly, online chat rooms.
The process of self selection into violence within these scenes is stimulated by a massive, media-driven political awakening in which jihad is represented as the only the way to permanently resolve glaring problems of global injustice. When this perceived injustice resonates with frustrated personal aspirations, violence may be seen as a way out. Al-Qaida and its associates do not so much recruit as attract and enlist those disaffected people who have already decided to embark on the path to violent extremism with the help of a few fellow travellers.
Research shows that terrorists generally don't commit terrorism because they are extraordinarily vengeful or uncaring, poor or uneducated, schooled as children in radical religion or brainwashed, criminally-minded or suicidal, or sex-starved for virgins in heaven. Most have no personal history of violent emotions and generally peaceful in their daily lives but become "born again" into a radical cause.
Before and just after 9/11, jihadis, including suicide bombers, were on average materially better-off and better-educated relative to their populations of origin. Many had college educations or advanced technical training. A background in science, particularly engineering and medicine, was positively associated with the likelihood of joining jihad. Now, the main threat to the west isn't from any organisation, or from well-trained cadres of volunteers, but from an al-Qaida-inspired viral social movement that is particularly contagious among young adults who are in transition stages in their lives: immigrants, students, those still in search of friends, mates or jobs.
The popular notion of a "clash of civilizations" is woefully misleading. Violent extremism represents the collapse of traditional territorial cultures, not their resurgence, as people unmoored from millennial traditions flail about in search of a social identity. Individuals now mostly radicalise horizontally with their peers, rather than vertically through institutional leaders or organisational hierarchies: in small groups of friends – from the same neighbourhood or social network – or even as loners who find common cause with a virtual internet community. Appeals to moderate Islam are about as irrelevant as older people appealing to adolescents to moderate their music or clothes.
In the long run, perhaps the most important counterterrorism measure of all is to provide alternative heroes and hopes that are more enticing and empowering than any moral lessons or material offerings (jobs that help to relieve the terrible boredom and inactivity of immigrant youth in Europe and the underemployed throughout much of the Muslim world, will not alone offset the allure of playing at war). It is also important to provide alternate local networks and chatrooms that speak to the inherent idealism, sense of risk and adventure, and need for peer approval that young people everywhere tend toward. It could even be a 21st-century version of what the Boy Scouts and high school football teams did for immigrants and potentially troublesome youth as America urbanised a century ago. Ask any cop on the beat: those things work. It has to be done with the input and insight of local communities, and chiefly peer-to-peer, or it won't be effective: deradicalisation, like radicalisation itself, works mainly from the bottom up, not from the top down. This, of course, is not how you stop terrorism today, but how you do it for tomorrow.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: heganboy on September 24, 2014, 06:06:22 PM
One view on ISIS:

(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/9/24/1411539946412/firstdog-isis-800w.jpg)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: orangeman on September 24, 2014, 07:25:52 PM
Obama can deliver a speech. He's good.

He can even keep his face straight most of the time.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: StGallsGAA on September 25, 2014, 11:03:26 PM
Yet another western powers v bad muslims do-or-die war.  Not surprisingly music to the ears of George Bush and Dick Cheney via their Halliburton and Carlyle Corporations!  War against anybody is just great!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 26, 2014, 08:19:23 AM
It all seemed so idiotic
all the accusations of unpatriotic
The fall we'll always remember,
capitulating silence election November
before the winter
of the long hot summer
Somewhere in the desert
we raised the oil pressure
and waited for the weather
to get much better
for the new wind to blow in the storm
We tried to remember the history in the region
the French foreign legion, Imperialism,
Peter O'Toole and hate the Ayatollah
were all we learned in school
Not that we gave Hussein five billion
Not of our new bed partner the Syrian
and of course no mention
of the Palestine situation
It was amazing how they steamrolled
They said eighty percent approval
but there was no one that I knew polled
No one had a reason for being in the Gulf
We waited for congress to speak up
illegal build up
But no one would wake up
Our representatives were Milli Vanilli's
for corporate Dallas Cowboy Beverly Hillbillies
With perfect timing
the politicians rhyming their sentiments
so nicely oil gold and sand
my sediments precisely....
We regretfully support the lunacy
I'm afraid there is no time for more scrutiny
National unity preserve our community
Teflon election opportunities
were in profundant abundance

On January second the Bush administration
announced a recession had stricken the Nation
the highest quarterly earnings in ten years
were posted by Chevron
Meanwhile a budget was placed in our hands
as the deadline in the sand came to an end
so much for the peace dividend
one billion a day is what we spent
and our grandchildren will pay for it 'til the end
When schools are unfunded
and kids don't get their diplomas
they get used for gun boat diplomacy
disproportionately black or brown we see
bullet catchers for the slave master



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-g_t8tQ4zyo
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 26, 2014, 08:28:38 AM
It must have been like this when between 1570 and the departure of Cromwell from Ireland
The English destroyed most of the abbeys in the late 1500s. There are ruins of one in the middle of Ballina.
Never replaced.   


http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/sep/25/iraq-outlaw-state/?insrc=whc

The SIC has also systematically destroyed tombs, temples, shrines, statues, and monuments that might hint at exalting anything other than the one true God. Some of the world's most significant archaeological sites, including the great pre-Islamic Arab city of Hatra, with its magnificent temples to pagan gods, are at risk of destruction or plunder: aside from protection rackets and kidnap ransom, the SIC has developed a lucrative sideline in antiquities smuggling.

Sad to say, Baghdadi's fusion of the homicidal and messianic is not without precedent in Iraq. The use of seemingly gratuitous cruelty as a form of display—as a talisman of godlike power and an advertisement of worldly success—has old roots here. Some can be traced just outside of Mosul in the fields of dusty ruins that mark the sites of Nineveh and Nimrud, great cities of the ancient Assyrian empire.

For centuries before its collapse in 612 BC, Assyria controlled the upper plains between the rivers Tigris and Euphrates, a span of flat, semiarid, and hard-to-defend terrain that is possibly the most often fought-over patch of real estate on the planet, and that happens to be remarkably similar to the SIC's present domain. Assyria's perpetual rival and eventual nemesis was Babylon, a kingdom that, rather like the rump Iraq now held by the Shia-dominated government in Baghdad, centered on the lower reaches of the two rivers. Just as today the area around Baghdad (the city was not founded until the eighth century AD) formed an uneasy border between them.

What stands out in the iconography of the Assyrian kingdom is its unusually frequent and detailed depiction of extreme violence. Again and again we find muscle-bound Assyrians doing terrible things to captives: slitting throats, lopping off limbs and heads, impaling, flaying alive, displaying corpses and body parts atop city walls. Just as in the SIC's propaganda, too, the smashing of enemy idols provides another common theme.

The British Museum, which houses a spectacular collection of Assyrian art, devotes an entire gallery to reliefs from the palace of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh. The image that draws most comment is a small domestic scene showing the king relaxing with his queen in a garden as a musician strums on a harp. They sit in the shade of a tree decorated with an eye-catching ornament: the severed head of a troublesome neighboring king.

In short, the country that is now Iraq—although alas not, perhaps, for much longer in its current shape—is no stranger to the ghoulish and macabre. The Mongols, famously, built pyramids of skulls when they pillaged and razed Baghdad in 1258 and again in 1401. It was in Iraq in the 1920s that Britain introduced newer, cheaper methods for keeping unruly natives under control, such as chemical weapons and aerial "terror" bombings. Saddam Hussein's three-decade-long Republic of Fear, with its gassing of Kurdish villagers, grotesque tortures, and mass slaughter of dissidents, made the later American jailers of Abu Ghraib look downright amateur.

The SIC captures the headlines, but the group is hardly alone in its viciousness. In recent years Shia gangs have proved no less cruel than such Sunni rivals, one small example being the puritan vigilantes who have regularly and murderously attacked sex workers in Baghdad. The carnage from a raid on a brothel in the district of Zayuna on July 12 included twenty-eight prostitutes and six of their clients. In another incident on July 30, Shia militias in the town of Baaquba, northeast of Baghdad, executed fifteen Sunni men they had earlier kidnapped, strung their corpses on electricity poles, and for several days refused to let medical teams remove them.

Such atrocities represent average daily tolls for violent death in Iraq, where the total of civilian dead since the American invasion of 2003 has almost certainly mounted well beyond 100,000—no one really knows. The postwar sectarian bloodletting reached a flood in 2006–2007, as Shia death squads sought revenge for the bombing of a revered Shia shrine by one of the SIC's Sunni precursors. Under the impact of ceaseless bombings and tit-for-tat assassinations, Baghdad, once a pixelation of faiths, forcibly rearranged itself into monochrome sectarian blocs divided by grim concrete walls. Following a merciful lowering of the tempo of violence that lingered into 2013, the awful daily drumbeat has again quickened. Instead of wobbling slowly to recovery, a wounded Iraq has found itself staggering into new and possibly worse dangers.

Even by the standards of Iraq's turbulent history, its past few decades have been unusually relentless. Just since 1980 Iraqis have experienced three major wars that wrecked the country's physical infrastructure and left perhaps half a million dead; an attempt at genocide that permanently alienated Iraq's five million Kurds; a ten-year siege under the UN's "Oil-for-Food" program that devastated the economy, ruined the middle class, and forced the most talented into exile; an American invasion that shattered national pride and stoked bitter divisions; and a civil war that displaced as many as 4.7 million Iraqis from their homes and has driven a deep, perhaps irreparable chasm of mistrust between Iraq's 60 percent Shia Arab majority and the once-dominant 20 percent Sunni Arab minority. Excepting perhaps the Russians from 1914 to 1953, few modern nations have been so cursed by ill luck for such an extended period.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Gaffer on September 28, 2014, 05:55:17 PM
Would love to trap a squad of the ISIS boys in a large shed

I would then unwrap a machine gun and get to work until they were all horizontal!


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 05:00:34 AM
Latecomer to the thread here.

I've always noticed that religious people tend to play down the role of religion in conflict. They point to the other causes of division and insist that that is the real cause. Anti-religious people tend to play up the role of religion in conflict. The late lamented Christopher Hitchens maintained that Islamic terrorists carry out unspeakable acts not because they deviate from their religious doctrine but because they adhere to it quite literally. Sam Harris wrote about it in The End of Faith where he devoted several pages to quoting from Islamic holy texts one instruction after another to kill, punish, or at least despise infidels. There are hundreds of them.

My take on it is that there are numerous factors in these conflicts, and while religion might not be the only root of each one, it certainly magnifies problems. When people are divided on ethnic or nationalist lines, that division gets even sharper when people adhere to a belief system that denigrates an "evil other" group out of fear of what'll happen to them in the afterlife if they're too friendly with the enemy. Religion is a very handy tool for recruiting extremists, and it can make people commit atrocities that would never be committed by a non-believer. There's no atheist equivalent of the seventeen virgin sex slaves awaiting them in heaven as a reward for carrying out a suicide bombing.

As others have alluded to, the late unlamented Ian Paisley was a master of hijacking religion as a means of motivating the mobs to attack innocent Catholics and keeping society divided according to which type of church people attended. Widespread belief in a divine imperative makes it a lot easier to recruit angry young men with an axe to grind, particularly if they live in sexually-frustrated gender-segregated societies like they have in the middle east.

There are those who play the whatabout game and point to historic wrongdoing in the name of religions other than Islam. The problem with that is Islam is different in being the youngest of the big three desert religions. Judaism went through its adolescent hissy fit a long time ago, Christianity went through its tantrum around the time of the Inquisition. Islam is going through its pain-in-the-neck teenage years now, and with modern weapons that's a big problem.  The Inquisition was awful, but imagine how much worse it would have been if automatic guns had existed at the time.

Since Islam is convulsing with rage at the minute, I think it does deserve to be singled out as being a bigger problem than other religions, particularly when its most violent adherents are armed with twenty-first century weapons.

Would abolishing religion also abolish conflict? Probably not. But it would tone things down a bit and make it a lot less violent and less dangerous IMHO.

Is Islam responsible for violence? Probably not per se, but let's not play down its role in fanning the flames of conflict and making solutions harder to find. Obama's claim that ISIS is "not Islamic" is a bit like saying that the Inquisition was not Catholic. We have to confront the elephant in the room and stop making excuses for religion.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 29, 2014, 06:27:13 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 05:00:34 AM
Latecomer to the thread here.

I've always noticed that religious people tend to play down the role of religion in conflict. They point to the other causes of division and insist that that is the real cause. Anti-religious people tend to play up the role of religion in conflict. The late lamented Christopher Hitchens maintained that Islamic terrorists carry out unspeakable acts not because they deviate from their religious doctrine but because they adhere to it quite literally. Sam Harris wrote about it in The End of Faith where he devoted several pages to quoting from Islamic holy texts one instruction after another to kill, punish, or at least despise infidels. There are hundreds of them.

My take on it is that there are numerous factors in these conflicts, and while religion might not be the only root of each one, it certainly magnifies problems. When people are divided on ethnic or nationalist lines, that division gets even sharper when people adhere to a belief system that denigrates an "evil other" group out of fear of what'll happen to them in the afterlife if they're too friendly with the enemy. Religion is a very handy tool for recruiting extremists, and it can make people commit atrocities that would never be committed by a non-believer. There's no atheist equivalent of the seventeen virgin sex slaves awaiting them in heaven as a reward for carrying out a suicide bombing.

As others have alluded to, the late unlamented Ian Paisley was a master of hijacking religion as a means of motivating the mobs to attack innocent Catholics and keeping society divided according to which type of church people attended. Widespread belief in a divine imperative makes it a lot easier to recruit angry young men with an axe to grind, particularly if they live in sexually-frustrated gender-segregated societies like they have in the middle east.

There are those who play the whatabout game and point to historic wrongdoing in the name of religions other than Islam. The problem with that is Islam is different in being the youngest of the big three desert religions. Judaism went through its adolescent hissy fit a long time ago, Christianity went through its tantrum around the time of the Inquisition. Islam is going through its pain-in-the-neck teenage years now, and with modern weapons that's a big problem.  The Inquisition was awful, but imagine how much worse it would have been if automatic guns had existed at the time.

Since Islam is convulsing with rage at the minute, I think it does deserve to be singled out as being a bigger problem than other religions, particularly when its most violent adherents are armed with twenty-first century weapons.

Would abolishing religion also abolish conflict? Probably not. But it would tone things down a bit and make it a lot less violent and less dangerous IMHO.

Is Islam responsible for violence? Probably not per se, but let's not play down its role in fanning the flames of conflict and making solutions harder to find. Obama's claim that ISIS is "not Islamic" is a bit like saying that the Inquisition was not Catholic. We have to confront the elephant in the room and stop making excuses for religion.
This war and the inquisition were driven by economics. It's always the same.
Islam is not inherently violent.
Neither are northern Irish catholics btw
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 08:00:04 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 05:00:34 AM
Latecomer to the thread here.

I've always noticed that religious people tend to play down the role of religion in conflict. They point to the other causes of division and insist that that is the real cause. Anti-religious people tend to play up the role of religion in conflict. The late lamented Christopher Hitchens maintained that Islamic terrorists carry out unspeakable acts not because they deviate from their religious doctrine but because they adhere to it quite literally. Sam Harris wrote about it in The End of Faith where he devoted several pages to quoting from Islamic holy texts one instruction after another to kill, punish, or at least despise infidels. There are hundreds of them.

My take on it is that there are numerous factors in these conflicts, and while religion might not be the only root of each one, it certainly magnifies problems. When people are divided on ethnic or nationalist lines, that division gets even sharper when people adhere to a belief system that denigrates an "evil other" group out of fear of what'll happen to them in the afterlife if they're too friendly with the enemy. Religion is a very handy tool for recruiting extremists, and it can make people commit atrocities that would never be committed by a non-believer. There's no atheist equivalent of the seventeen virgin sex slaves awaiting them in heaven as a reward for carrying out a suicide bombing.

As others have alluded to, the late unlamented Ian Paisley was a master of hijacking religion as a means of motivating the mobs to attack innocent Catholics and keeping society divided according to which type of church people attended. Widespread belief in a divine imperative makes it a lot easier to recruit angry young men with an axe to grind, particularly if they live in sexually-frustrated gender-segregated societies like they have in the middle east.

There are those who play the whatabout game and point to historic wrongdoing in the name of religions other than Islam. The problem with that is Islam is different in being the youngest of the big three desert religions. Judaism went through its adolescent hissy fit a long time ago, Christianity went through its tantrum around the time of the Inquisition. Islam is going through its pain-in-the-neck teenage years now, and with modern weapons that's a big problem.  The Inquisition was awful, but imagine how much worse it would have been if automatic guns had existed at the time.

Since Islam is convulsing with rage at the minute, I think it does deserve to be singled out as being a bigger problem than other religions, particularly when its most violent adherents are armed with twenty-first century weapons.

Would abolishing religion also abolish conflict? Probably not. But it would tone things down a bit and make it a lot less violent and less dangerous IMHO.

Is Islam responsible for violence? Probably not per se, but let's not play down its role in fanning the flames of conflict and making solutions harder to find. Obama's claim that ISIS is "not Islamic" is a bit like saying that the Inquisition was not Catholic. We have to confront the elephant in the room and stop making excuses for religion.

One of the biggest problems is the way political/Religious leaders in the middle east cynically manipulate their constituencies into believing that all their problems are the fault of the west. Religion is an extremely powerful tool in this propaganda exercise.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 08:00:04 PM
One of the biggest problems is the way political/Religious leaders in the middle east cynically manipulate their constituencies into believing that all their problems are the fault of the west. Religion is an extremely powerful tool in this propaganda exercise.

Yup. Kids in Pakistani public schools are taught to hate America before they can even locate the place on a map.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 29, 2014, 09:56:14 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 08:00:04 PM
One of the biggest problems is the way political/Religious leaders in the middle east cynically manipulate their constituencies into believing that all their problems are the fault of the west. Religion is an extremely powerful tool in this propaganda exercise.

Yup. Kids in Pakistani public schools are taught to hate America before they can even locate the place on a map.
When did Pakistanis start hating America? Anything to do with the war in Afghanistan ? How many Pakistanis have been murdered in drone attacks ? Are they supposed to clap?

There was a thing in the FT a while ago about "America's enemies in north west frontier province ". Why would NWF inhabitants be enemies of America ?  Answers on a postcard. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 10:24:34 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 08:00:04 PM
One of the biggest problems is the way political/Religious leaders in the middle east cynically manipulate their constituencies into believing that all their problems are the fault of the west. Religion is an extremely powerful tool in this propaganda exercise.

Yup. Kids in Pakistani public schools are taught to hate America before they can even locate the place on a map.

One of the biggest problems when dealing with religious extremism is that rational thought is suspended. A child living in relative comfort and and stability in Saudi Arabia or Oman is told that he has a duty to fight the "great satan" because of what is happening thousands of miles away in Pakistan. He is never told about the innocents that were killed , supposedly in his name, which caused the "great satan" to get involved on Pakistan in the first place. There is never any context.That is the problem.

It is a tragic cycle of violence.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 10:33:46 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 29, 2014, 09:56:14 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 08:00:04 PM
One of the biggest problems is the way political/Religious leaders in the middle east cynically manipulate their constituencies into believing that all their problems are the fault of the west. Religion is an extremely powerful tool in this propaganda exercise.

Yup. Kids in Pakistani public schools are taught to hate America before they can even locate the place on a map.
When did Pakistanis start hating America? Anything to do with the war in Afghanistan ? How many Pakistanis have been murdered in drone attacks ? Are they supposed to clap?

There was a thing in the FT a while ago about "America's enemies in north west frontier province ". Why would NWF inhabitants be enemies of America ?  Answers on a postcard.

We are trying to have a discussion here that focuses on Islamic extremism. Why don't you, for once, suspend your knee jerk hatred of America and accept that arab/muslim states bear some responsibility for what happens within their own borders ?

Or do you think Muslims are so incapable of self control/governance that anything that happens in the arab/muslim world is the fault of somebody else  ?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 11:09:09 PM
To illustrate the point...........

Quote"Everyone in Norway became a theoretical krone millionaire on Wednesday in a milestone for the world's biggest sovereign wealth fund that has ballooned thanks to high oil and gas prices."

http://www.cnbc.com/id/101321953# (http://www.cnbc.com/id/101321953#)

why is ownership of natural resources such a contentious issue in some countries and not in others ? People want oil, you have oil, you sell your oil to the countries that don't have it and you educate your kids with the proceeds.

Why does Allah need to get in the way ?



Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 11:13:55 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 29, 2014, 09:56:14 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 08:00:04 PM
One of the biggest problems is the way political/Religious leaders in the middle east cynically manipulate their constituencies into believing that all their problems are the fault of the west. Religion is an extremely powerful tool in this propaganda exercise.

Yup. Kids in Pakistani public schools are taught to hate America before they can even locate the place on a map.
When did Pakistanis start hating America? Anything to do with the war in Afghanistan ? How many Pakistanis have been murdered in drone attacks ? Are they supposed to clap?

There was a thing in the FT a while ago about "America's enemies in north west frontier province ". Why would NWF inhabitants be enemies of America ?  Answers on a postcard.

No, it's been going on since before the war in Afghanistan.

Drone attacks don't help, I'll give you that, but let's not subscribe to the convenient "let's blame the west for everything" doctrine. You can hardly blame the west for the 1999 coup that put Musharraf in power.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 11:32:08 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 11:13:55 PM
Quote from: seafoid on September 29, 2014, 09:56:14 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 29, 2014, 09:11:40 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 08:00:04 PM
One of the biggest problems is the way political/Religious leaders in the middle east cynically manipulate their constituencies into believing that all their problems are the fault of the west. Religion is an extremely powerful tool in this propaganda exercise.

Yup. Kids in Pakistani public schools are taught to hate America before they can even locate the place on a map.
When did Pakistanis start hating America? Anything to do with the war in Afghanistan ? How many Pakistanis have been murdered in drone attacks ? Are they supposed to clap?

There was a thing in the FT a while ago about "America's enemies in north west frontier province ". Why would NWF inhabitants be enemies of America ?  Answers on a postcard.

No, it's been going on since before the war in Afghanistan.

Drone attacks don't help, I'll give you that, but let's not subscribe to the convenient "let's blame the west for everything" doctrine. You can hardly blame the west for the 1999 coup that put Musharraf in power.

One thing you have to understand is that people like Seafoid think the US and the west  is somehow to blame for the failure of the Muslim world to accomplish a clean sucession to Mohammad in 632. That is the extent of their hatred. For 1000 years before the US existed these idiots have been trying to wipe each other out and , now, suddenly it is the US and the wests fault that some savages are beheading people.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 11:44:39 PM
One thing to remember lads. Seafoid was very vocal around the time of the gaza offensive but I have yet
to see him condemn the beheading of westerners by ISIL. Why is that so ? 

This barbarism needs to be confronted.

(http://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2014/09/15/ddc65055-35e9-4e5a-9689-db899ebc7d79/ddc65055-35e9-4e5a-9689-db899ebc7d79_16x9_600x338.jpg)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Arthur_Friend on September 30, 2014, 12:03:15 AM
Well for one thing Mike, everybody is condemning ISIL including the Western media but when the Israelis behead Palestininan men, women and children excuses are made. See the difference?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on September 30, 2014, 12:51:03 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 11:44:39 PM
One thing to remember lads. Seafoid was very vocal around the time of the gaza offensive but I have yet
to see him condemn the beheading of westerners by ISIL. Why is that so ? 

This barbarism needs to be confronted.

(http://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2014/09/15/ddc65055-35e9-4e5a-9689-db899ebc7d79/ddc65055-35e9-4e5a-9689-db899ebc7d79_16x9_600x338.jpg)

Do you deny that America had any part to play in the Frankenstein creation of Islamic State to destabilise Assad?

They are indeed a barbaric organisation that need to be stopped.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 30, 2014, 02:15:47 PM
It's despicable to behead people for PR purposes. Nobody should die like that. The campaign  seems to have worked like a dream however

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/a93b58cc-3a8f-11e4-a3f3-00144feabdc0.html

The turning point was the beheadings last month of two US journalists by members of the Islamic State in Iraq and the Levant, or Isis. Once videos of their killings were posted on the internet by Isis, their deaths amounted to virtual public executions.
Bill McInturff, a Republican-aligned pollster who along with a Democratic colleague conducts the closely watched Wall Street Journal/NBC poll, said the change in public opinion had been "sudden". That poll showed 61 per cent of respondents thought military action against Isis was in America's national interest.


Obviously it would be far more civilised  to kill the people with white phosphorous and depleted uranium  .
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on September 30, 2014, 02:22:49 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on September 29, 2014, 11:44:39 PM
One thing to remember lads. Seafoid was very vocal around the time of the gaza offensive but I have yet
to see him condemn the beheading of westerners by ISIL. Why is that so ? 

This barbarism needs to be confronted.

(http://vid.alarabiya.net/images/2014/09/15/ddc65055-35e9-4e5a-9689-db899ebc7d79/ddc65055-35e9-4e5a-9689-db899ebc7d79_16x9_600x338.jpg)
the Russell Tribunal has been investigating war crimes by Israel in Gaza

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaF8lVbQNG8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWrOuGNrzZc

World's most moral army my arse
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on October 01, 2014, 01:26:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw)

Reza Aslan educating people on Islam.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Eamonnca1 on October 02, 2014, 04:48:43 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 01, 2014, 01:26:56 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PzusSqcotDw)

Reza Aslan educating people on Islam.

Was just about to post that. As insightful as ever, is Mr Aslan.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: orangeman on October 03, 2014, 09:29:21 PM
Another aid worker killed. More to follow.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 04, 2014, 01:52:14 AM
Quote from: orangeman on October 03, 2014, 09:29:21 PM
Another aid worker killed. More to follow.

utter scumbags

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29485405 (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-29485405)

How is the west responsible for this mans execution Seafoid ? I look forward to your typically mendacious, slimy way of turning this persons noble attempts at charity against him ?

No doubt he was in it for the oil ...right ?  ::)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 04, 2014, 03:17:56 AM
..and I cant leave this piece of "news" pass.   Seafoid and GHD must be fuming. Those damn jews and their damn meddling....

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/Israeli-Defense-Force-rescues-Irish-troops-from-Islamist-extremists.html (http://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/Israeli-Defense-Force-rescues-Irish-troops-from-Islamist-extremists.html)


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on October 04, 2014, 04:16:55 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 04, 2014, 03:17:56 AM
..and I cant leave this piece of "news" pass.   Seafoid and GHD must be fuming. Those damn jews and their damn meddling....

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/Israeli-Defense-Force-rescues-Irish-troops-from-Islamist-extremists.html (http://www.irishcentral.com/news/politics/Israeli-Defense-Force-rescues-Irish-troops-from-Islamist-extremists.html)
Great stuff there by the Israelis for a change. It would be even better if they didn't have to kill children in Gaza.


"  It requires a single-minded political as well as a military commitment on the part of the regional powers to a post-Isis settlement. For Turkey and Saudi Arabia regime change in Damascus and settling scores with Iran take precedence over any such accommodation between Shia and Sunni. Yet the moderate Syrian opposition ready to replace Mr Assad is a threadbare fiction
Saudi aircraft are flying sorties against Isis fighters, but Saudi Arabia remains the principal source of the fundamentalist theology that is the foundation stone for the jihadis. If Riyadh agrees that things have got out of hand, it does not want to disempower the Sunni chiefs who have provided support for the jihadi self-proclaimed caliphate.
That would be to aid the Shia-led government in Baghdad; and, worse, to give succour to Iraq's ally and Saudi Arabia's eternal enemy – Shia Iran. To a greater or lesser degree the wealthy Gulf states display the same ambivalence: Isis should be checked, but not at the expense of handing victory to Mr Assad's sponsor in Tehran."


What's your solution to ISIS?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: haveaharp on October 04, 2014, 09:42:38 AM
Whoever is doing the beheading its certainly goading the west into / justifying another long campaign in the middle east. The UK for example wont be split down the middle on whether to go to war this time. Whilst the talk so far is of limited action / no boots on the ground, let's wait and see on that one.

Gutted for that poor mans family and for the other hostages already murdered or awaiting the same threat.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Aaron Boone on October 04, 2014, 01:23:27 PM
You have to wonder how many more hostages they have, 5 now and counting.
None of the hostages has ever made the public consciousness as being missing
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on October 04, 2014, 01:36:42 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 04, 2014, 09:42:38 AM
Whoever is doing the beheading its certainly goading the west into / justifying another long campaign in the middle east. The UK for example wont be split down the middle on whether to go to war this time. Whilst the talk so far is of limited action / no boots on the ground, let's wait and see on that one.

Gutted for that poor mans family and for the other hostages already murdered or awaiting the same threat.
It's a very cynical campaign. And lashing out is not the way to do it if there is no political solution involving the local powers. Saudi Arabia is sickening. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 08, 2014, 12:20:23 AM
Looks like the Kurds are in serious trouble now...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/07/world/middleeast/isis-moves-into-syrian-kurdish-enclave-on-turkish-border.html?_r=0
(http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/07/world/middleeast/isis-moves-into-syrian-kurdish-enclave-on-turkish-border.html?_r=0)


QuoteSlaughter Is Feared as ISIS Nears Turkish Border


By KARAM SHOUMALI and ANNE BARNARDOCT. 6, 2014

Smoke rose from the Syrian Kurdish town of Kobani on Monday as Kurds fought to repel advancing Islamic State militants. Credit Umit Bektas/Reuters 


ISTANBUL — Islamic State militants pushed on Monday into the eastern edge of the Syrian Kurdish town of Kobani on the Turkish border, after sustained shelling that drove back the Kurdish fighters and Syrian insurgents fighting alongside them, killing 16 and raising fears of a massacre of civilians, Kurdish fighters and activists said.

Anwar Muslim, a coordinator in Kobani for the People's Protection Committees, a Kurdish militant group known as the Y.P.G., said Monday night that 12,000 civilians were trapped inside the town. He said that his group was running out of heavy ammunition, and with Islamic State militants close by the population was in constant fear of car bombs or suicide bombers.

Rooz Bahjat, who identified himself as a senior security official with the Kurdistan Regional Government in Iraq, said that as many as 9,000 Islamic State fighters were closing in on the area, leaving other fronts in eastern and northern Syria and even as far away as Iraq to attack what he called "a bastion of democracy and secularism" in Kobani, which has given shelter to internally displaced Syrians from a wide range of ethnic groups.
"The whole might of ISIS right now is turned onto Kobani," he said.

His information could not be independently verified, but Kurdish officials have been warning for days that without more military aid, Kobani will fall. And Islamic State fighters in Raqqa and Aleppo Provinces have said in recent interviews that they were redeploying toward Kobani after having faced United States-led airstrikes in their strongholds elsewhere in Syria.

The Kurdish militants have been hanging on as fighters from the Islamic State, also known as ISIS or ISIL, have advanced with heavy weapons in a three-week assault. Kurdish women have joined the battle, and one, Kurdish and Syrian activists say, blew herself up with a grenade over the weekend rather than be captured.

Shells have sailed across the Turkish border several times in recent days, and on Monday a black Islamic State flag appeared to be flying from one of the taller buildings in Kobani, or Ayn al-Arab as it is known in Arabic, the main settlement in a group of Kurdish farming villages that has been under assault since mid-September.

Video from the front lines in recent days has shown fighters for the Islamic State advancing across fields in formation, well equipped in camouflage flak vests. Some militants have posted pictures of themselves holding the severed heads of what they say are female Kurdish fighters.

The Kurds are cut off from supply lines and surrounded by Islamic State fighters on three sides. The fourth, the Turkish border, is heavily guarded by Turkish forces, which have prevented Turkish and Syrian Kurds from joining the fight.

Turkish Army patrols watching from across a border fence have remained spectators to the fighting, even though on Monday the NATO alliance said it would aid Turkey, a member state, if it came under attack.

"Turkey should know that NATO will be there if there is any spillover, any attacks on Turkey as a consequence of the violence we see in Syria," Jens Stoltenberg, the secretary general of the alliance, said on Monday

Turkish officials have said they will assist in the fight against the Islamic State, but given Turkey's open border policy that long facilitated the movement of the extremist militants into Syria, Kurds are suspicious of its intentions. They say that Turkey views the semiautonomous Kurdish region that has developed on the Syrian side of the border as the greater threat.

Turkey's prime minister, Ahmet Davutoglu, told CNN on Monday that Turkey was ready to take many military measures, including sending ground troops to Syria, but that there needed to be "a clear strategy." Turkish officials were disappointed that President Obama did not make the ouster of President Bashar al-Assad of Syria a goal of the operation against the Islamic State, and have demanded an internationally backed no-fly zone to keep Syrian jets out of the air before taking new military action.

Airstrikes by the United States-led coalition against the Islamic State took out two of the group's positions south of Kobani on Monday, the American military said. But as Kurdish fighters pleaded for more support, the only other airstrikes on the militant group Monday were conducted elsewhere, in Raqqa and Deir al-Zour Provinces.

Syrian insurgents opposed to the Islamic State have vowed to step up cooperation with the Y.P.G., but the Syrians do not have a strong presence in the area.

The Turkish government was initially reluctant to take strong action against the Islamic State after it overran Mosul and large areas of northern Iraq in August, citing the need to safeguard 46 Turkish hostages being held by the militant group. But the hostages were freed last month in a deal that has raised further questions about the relationship between Turkey and the Islamic State. The BBC on Monday quoted unidentified security sources as saying the hostages were freed in a large prisoner exchange in which around 180 jihadists who had been held in Turkish custody, possibly including two Britons, were handed over to the Islamic State.

Turkish officials have neither confirmed nor denied the report, but on Monday a senior party official said such a deal would not have been unreasonable.

"We might have swapped thousands when lives of our nationals were at stake," said a governing party official, who asked not to be identified because he was discussing a confidential national security matter.

Elsewhere across Syria, insurgents struck on two fronts against government forces.

North of Aleppo, insurgent groups including the Qaeda-affiliated Nusra Front and the American-backed Harakat Hazm fought government forces that recently seized the town of Handarat. Fighters from Hazm, which has been supplied with American-made TOW antitank weapons, have destroyed government tanks in recent days, rebels say. Rebel spokesmen on Monday said they were pushing hard to take back the town of Handarat and had captured foreigners, including Afghans and Lebanese, fighting on the government side.

In an unusual battle near the border with the Golan Heights in southern Syria, another United States-backed group, the Omari Brigades of the Syrian Revolutionaries Front, took a government air defense base on the hilltop of Tel al-Harrah and posted a video of several fighters with what they said was Russian-made government air defense equipment.

A covert United States effort to equip and train relatively moderate insurgents there has had few major successes. More aid has been promised to groups deemed moderate by American officials as part of the campaign against the Islamic State. But it was unclear whether the recent victory was because of new equipment or organization, or if it benefited from recent victories in the area by the Nusra Front.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on October 08, 2014, 09:34:06 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 08, 2014, 12:20:23 AM
Looks like the Kurds are in serious trouble now...



Seems like the Turks for all their bluster last week as part of the 'US led coalition' are prepared to feed the Kurds to the wolves.

As Seafoid has already said, the Turks and Saudi's are saying one thing and doing another on this one!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on October 08, 2014, 10:17:59 AM
The Kurds don't have the weapons that ISIS do. They aren't bankrolled by Saudi.
Turkey doesn't want a strong Kurdistan either.  Most Kurds live in Turkey and there is no way they are going to be allowed to decide anything. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 10, 2014, 01:10:17 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 08, 2014, 09:34:06 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 08, 2014, 12:20:23 AM
Looks like the Kurds are in serious trouble now...



Seems like the Turks for all their bluster last week as part of the 'US led coalition' are prepared to feed the Kurds to the wolves.

As Seafoid has already said, the Turks and Saudi's are saying one thing and doing another on this one!

Yeah, but aren't you surprised that the Irish Kurdistan Solidarity Campaign (IKSC) are not more vocal
about this ?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: FLL on October 10, 2014, 08:11:53 AM
Why can't the yanks just go in and wipe these madmen out? Is it because Obama is a ball less pos?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on October 10, 2014, 08:52:32 AM
Quote from: FLL on October 10, 2014, 08:11:53 AM
Why can't the yanks just go in and wipe these madmen out? Is it because Obama is a ball less pos?
Yeah, just like they did in Afghanistan and Iraq  ::)

Away back to your call of duty on the x-box.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: FLL on October 10, 2014, 08:56:20 AM
Hey I'm only asking a question.. And it's a playstation  ;)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on October 10, 2014, 09:57:23 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 10, 2014, 01:10:17 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on October 08, 2014, 09:34:06 AM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 08, 2014, 12:20:23 AM
Looks like the Kurds are in serious trouble now...



Seems like the Turks for all their bluster last week as part of the 'US led coalition' are prepared to feed the Kurds to the wolves.

As Seafoid has already said, the Turks and Saudi's are saying one thing and doing another on this one!

Yeah, but aren't you surprised that the Irish Kurdistan Solidarity Campaign (IKSC) are not more vocal
about this ?
Kurdish history is awful. They always get shafted
Who would you advise them to side with? Turkey ? Saudi ?
It's pure medieval, this war.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on October 12, 2014, 08:58:34 AM
ISIS = Times New Roman?

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bzre3cXIEAEmwxA.jpg)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: cadhlancian on October 13, 2014, 04:14:48 AM
Do these wankers have a command structure? At least with Al Queda , we knew who was calling the shots, and most top level commanders in Al Queda would have been " known" early on . That doesn't seem to be the case here, although somebody , somewhere has to be running this madness...
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on October 13, 2014, 11:26:48 AM
Quote from: cadhlancian on October 13, 2014, 04:14:48 AM
Do these w**kers have a command structure? At least with Al Queda , we knew who was calling the shots, and most top level commanders in Al Queda would have been " known" early on . That doesn't seem to be the case here, although somebody , somewhere has to be running this madness...
They do. It's not madness. It is highly organised and ultra efficient. It's very like Cromwell's new model army. Same religious conviction, same gore based strategy, same level of process.
And a lot of sunnis support it because they have spent enough time being shafted.
The only solution is regional with the input of all the regional players. Bombing will not solve anything,

It reminds me of the drugs problem in Limerick. If you want to fix it first you have to understand it. Classing ISIs and McCarthy Dundons as barbarians is satisfying but impotent. The system that bred them is the enemy.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: AZOffaly on October 13, 2014, 12:00:36 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 13, 2014, 11:26:48 AM
Quote from: cadhlancian on October 13, 2014, 04:14:48 AM
Do these w**kers have a command structure? At least with Al Queda , we knew who was calling the shots, and most top level commanders in Al Queda would have been " known" early on . That doesn't seem to be the case here, although somebody , somewhere has to be running this madness...
They do. It's not madness. It is highly organised and ultra efficient. It's very like Cromwell's new model army. Same religious conviction, same gore based strategy, same level of process.
And a lot of sunnis support it because they have spent enough time being shafted.
The only solution is regional with the input of all the regional players. Bombing will not solve anything,

It reminds me of the drugs problem in Limerick. If you want to fix it first you have to understand it. Classing ISIs and McCarthy Dundons as barbarians is satisfying but impotent. The system that bred them is the enemy.

No way. The enemy is the people doing the beheading, or killing innocent people or running the drugs in the Limerick example. The system may have its faults, but it's a pure cop out to blame the system when dickheads do dickhead things. I think America and the west in general are making a pigs ear of the Middle East, but that does not excuse the actions of these lunatics.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on October 13, 2014, 12:15:41 PM
You have to change the conditions that lead to the rise of ISIS and drugs gangs. Stop the recruitment of kids into the system. By the time they are beheading or setting cars with kids in them alight it is very late.
Bringing everything back to personal responsibility does not work when things have deteriorated that much.The targets do not buy into the logic that the system does anything for them.  Stop the cash flows from middle class drug use and oil use and start fixing and don't expect it to be ready by christmas.

30 years of brutality can't be fixed overnight. And people need hope.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: AZOffaly on October 13, 2014, 12:22:39 PM
Absolutely agree with you that the system has to be corrected, however every individual is responsible for his/her actions. And they have to be held accountable. And if they are terrorising an entire region, and killing people with impunity, then that has to be stopped, regardless of any systemic issues or failures.  You might have a pile of rubbish outside your house, but the minute you see a rat, you're going to kill the f**ker. You can move the pile as well, but the rat has to be removed.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2014, 02:12:19 PM
The West and other parts of the Middle East need and court revolutionaries in that part of the world. Libya, Egypt, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Al Queda etc have all have benefited from hopelessly misguided foreign aid. The more successful of these revolutionaries are inclined towards radical Islamic rule or a military administration when they get power. Either of these quickly cause problems for their neighbours and the West.

Some of those in power in the west think democracy is the solution. Democracy is not about voting the right person in, it is about the ability to vote the wrong person out. If a Sunni majority votes in their man, the others can't vote him out no matter how bad he is. Thus democracy merely gives the biggest faction all of the power. This is a huge problem in Africa.

A wider solution is needed for all of the cultures of the area. The Western imposed national boundaries are absurd and are only temporary solutions, and nationalism doesn't seem to be an issue in the way it would be in the west.  Israel is the exception of course but they would also gain from anything remotely approaching a solution. Maybe they should look at a European Union equivalent, whereby nations are still independent but can be held accountable to a larger administration. The larger administration would need a strict charter and be compelled to look after all of the minority cultures as well as the dominant few.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 03:27:37 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

tell us more about this "benevolent dictatorship"
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: AZOffaly on October 13, 2014, 03:29:09 PM
Like Sacha Baron Cohen in 'The Dictator'.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:43:06 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 03:27:37 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

tell us more about this "benevolent dictatorship"

No
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on October 13, 2014, 04:38:11 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.
The biggest problem with democracy is short-termism. Almost verything is about staying popular winning the next election with only a nod to the long term.
Just look at what we have in the North. Welfare and parades need hard unpopular choices but, even where we have no opposition they are afraid to annoy their voters.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2014, 06:25:40 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

A good example of this is the marginal income tax rate here is now 52% while the Corporate Rate for trading income is 12.5% and in reality they pay nowhere near that.

Yet we have most political parties and media, up in arms at the very mention of changing the latter. The taxpayer bailed out the economy, but business will benefit from it. But say that out loud in Ireland and you'll incur the Wrath of Khan.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 06:36:34 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:43:06 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 03:27:37 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

tell us more about this "benevolent dictatorship"

No

Why not ? Don't you believe in what you wrote ?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: haranguerer on October 13, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 06:25:40 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

A good example of this is the marginal income tax rate here is now 52% while the Corporate Rate for trading income is 12.5% and in reality they pay nowhere near that.

Yet we have most political parties and media, up in arms at the very mention of changing the latter. The taxpayer bailed out the economy, but business will benefit from it. But say that out loud in Ireland and you'll incur the Wrath of Khan.

So you're advocating rising the CT rate?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 07:57:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 06:36:34 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:43:06 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 03:27:37 PM
tell us more about this "benevolent dictatorship"

No

Why not ? Don't you believe in what you wrote ?

I couldn't be ar$ed jumping to your tune that's why. Its fairly obvious you had a point to make prior to getting any response from me so just make it why don't you.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2014, 08:08:49 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 13, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 06:25:40 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

A good example of this is the marginal income tax rate here is now 52% while the Corporate Rate for trading income is 12.5% and in reality they pay nowhere near that.

Yet we have most political parties and media, up in arms at the very mention of changing the latter. The taxpayer bailed out the economy, but business will benefit from it. But say that out loud in Ireland and you'll incur the Wrath of Khan.

So you're advocating rising the CT rate?

Yes. Time to stop being the world's tax prostitute.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Farrandeelin on October 13, 2014, 08:16:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 08:08:49 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 13, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 06:25:40 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

A good example of this is the marginal income tax rate here is now 52% while the Corporate Rate for trading income is 12.5% and in reality they pay nowhere near that.

Yet we have most political parties and media, up in arms at the very mention of changing the latter. The taxpayer bailed out the economy, but business will benefit from it. But say that out loud in Ireland and you'll incur the Wrath of Khan.

So you're advocating rising the CT rate?

Yes. Time to stop being the world's tax prostitute.
I'm not really good at international economics, but surely even to me, that's not a good thing to do for 'being the best small country in the world to do business' etc.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on October 13, 2014, 08:25:00 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 13, 2014, 08:16:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 08:08:49 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 13, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 06:25:40 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

A good example of this is the marginal income tax rate here is now 52% while the Corporate Rate for trading income is 12.5% and in reality they pay nowhere near that.

Yet we have most political parties and media, up in arms at the very mention of changing the latter. The taxpayer bailed out the economy, but business will benefit from it. But say that out loud in Ireland and you'll incur the Wrath of Khan.

So you're advocating rising the CT rate?

Yes. Time to stop being the world's tax prostitute.
I'm not really good at international economics, but surely even to me, that's not a good thing to do for 'being the best small country in the world to do business' etc.

The tax isn't the only reason businesses come here. If it is, then we are screwed when someone goes lower.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 09:24:39 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 07:57:24 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 06:36:34 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:43:06 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 03:27:37 PM
tell us more about this "benevolent dictatorship"

No

Why not ? Don't you believe in what you wrote ?

I couldn't be ar$ed jumping to your tune that's why. Its fairly obvious you had a point to make prior to getting any response from me so just make it why don't you.

Don't you think it is quite extraordinary that someone can constantly criticize the flawed but ultimately superior system of government that is democracy, yet the same person gets evasive and defensive when challenged for espousing dictatorship ? This is the kind of "Alice through the looking glass" thinking that has enveloped gaaboard over the last number of years.

It is truly mind boggling. ::)

That's the problem with lads like you. It is so easy to just criticize and talk about "corporate interests" blah, blah. These things are never black and white. Corporate interests meld with political interests which meld with local/national interests which meld with individual interests which , in turn , meld back with communal interests and so on and so forth back up and down the food chain of "interests" .



Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 10:21:47 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

Is that lost on you ya fool?

....Individual interests/dependancies have been set by the banks and the resource rich nations. People have become more and more enslaved by the global financial system whilst the top 1% accrue obscene amounts of wealth especially since we went into recession.

Up here the privatize profit making state owned enterprise like eurostar and the NHS is in their sights. We are nothing more than commodities to the corporate elite who only want ordinary people to live so the can make money from them
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Tony Baloney on October 13, 2014, 10:29:54 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 10:21:47 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

Is that lost on you ya fool?

....Individual interests/dependancies have been set by the banks and the resource rich nations. People have become more and more enslaved by the global financial system whilst the top 1% accrue obscene amounts of wealth especially since we went into recession.

Up here the privatize profit making state owned enterprise like eurostar and the NHS is in their sights. We are nothing more than commodities to the corporate elite who only want ordinary people to live so the can make money from them
Rowing with yourself?!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 10:55:05 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 10:21:47 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

Is that lost on you ya fool?

....Individual interests/dependancies have been set by the banks and the resource rich nations. People have become more and more enslaved by the global financial system whilst the top 1% accrue obscene amounts of wealth especially since we went into recession.

Up here the privatize profit making state owned enterprise like eurostar and the NHS is in their sights. We are nothing more than commodities to the corporate elite who only want ordinary people to live so the can make money from them

So, are you saying that you support the concept of a benevolent dictatorship or not ?

and what is a "benevolent dictatorship" ?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 10:58:01 PM
Google it MS...I couldn't be ar$ed humoring you
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 11:18:37 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 10:58:01 PM
Google it MS...I couldn't be ar$ed humoring you

So you support the government model of Singapore and Yugoslavia ?  ::)

I worked in Singapore in the 90's. It beats ISIS, for sure, but I would never call it benevolent.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 11:24:51 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 11:18:37 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 10:58:01 PM
Google it MS...I couldn't be ar$ed humoring you

So you support the government model of Singapore and Yugoslavia ?  ::)

I worked in Singapore in the 90's. It beats ISIS, for sure, but I would never call it benevolent.

You read what I've written ..... the answer's there if you look for it
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 11:38:13 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 11:24:51 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 11:18:37 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 10:58:01 PM
Google it MS...I couldn't be ar$ed humoring you

So you support the government model of Singapore and Yugoslavia ?  ::)

I worked in Singapore in the 90's. It beats ISIS, for sure, but I would never call it benevolent.

You read what I've written ..... the answer's there if you look for it

Your problem is that you don't have any courage in your convictions.

It is a character flaw with you and with so many like you. Maybe it is a generational thing.

You have lost the ability, or the will, to defend your position. There is always some link or some meme or some vine that can serve as a get out clause or a substitute for an opinion.

It is quite tragic really.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 11:49:12 PM
Scratch that itch ya fool and learn to read
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 13, 2014, 11:56:42 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 11:49:12 PM
Scratch that itch ya fool and learn to read

Why are lads like you such cowards with your opinions ?

... you are always on the attack..... always rubbishing everything yet when you are challenged you run away. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 14, 2014, 12:33:19 AM
I suppose what "theskull1" needs to learn is that you need to grow a
pair of balls before you can grow an opinion.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 14, 2014, 12:49:07 AM
Quote from: seafoid on October 13, 2014, 12:15:41 PM
You have to change the conditions that lead to the rise of ISIS and drugs gangs. Stop the recruitment of kids into the system. By the time they are beheading or setting cars with kids in them alight it is very late.
Bringing everything back to personal responsibility does not work when things have deteriorated that much.The targets do not buy into the logic that the system does anything for them.  Stop the cash flows from middle class drug use and oil use and start fixing and don't expect it to be ready by christmas.

30 years of brutality can't be fixed overnight. And people need hope.

Personal responsibility is the only measurable quantity in this equation. 30 years of looking the other way to radicalism can't be fixed overnight. People need to cop the f**k on and stop supporting a nihilistic creed.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on October 14, 2014, 01:19:18 AM
Listen to the man lads  ;D
(http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2010252.ece/alternates/s615/Wesley-Warren.jpg)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 14, 2014, 01:31:27 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 14, 2014, 01:19:18 AM
Listen to the man lads  ;D

like I said, you need to resort to memes, vines  ;)

Cowards like you never step up.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: theskull1 on October 14, 2014, 01:48:04 AM
And you throw out the jibes.......You want a fight not a discussion, so piss away off. I could not be arsed, although I'd love to know where your rage came from on the back of my initial post...is your personal life going OK?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 14, 2014, 01:51:44 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 14, 2014, 01:19:18 AM
Listen to the man lads  ;D
(http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article2010252.ece/alternates/s615/Wesley-Warren.jpg)

"Hi my name is skull1.......I finally grew a set of balls !!"

lol
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Mike Sheehy on October 14, 2014, 02:07:39 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 14, 2014, 01:48:04 AM
And you throw out the jibes.......You want a fight not a discussion, so piss away off. I could not be arsed, although I'd love to know where your rage came from on the back of my initial post...is your personal life going OK?

my personal life is fine. Your initial statement was bullshit. That is what started this all off i.e your refusal to explain yourself.

Now, in your own words, what is so good about a "benevolent dictatorship" ?

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on October 14, 2014, 06:17:25 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 13, 2014, 12:22:39 PM
Absolutely agree with you that the system has to be corrected, however every individual is responsible for his/her actions. And they have to be held accountable. And if they are terrorising an entire region, and killing people with impunity, then that has to be stopped, regardless of any systemic issues or failures.  You might have a pile of rubbish outside your house, but the minute you see a rat, you're going to kill the f**ker. You can move the pile as well, but the rat has to be removed.

The sad thing is that in most wars there is zero accountability. The neighbours start killing people and when the war is over in the name of moving on there's an amnesty. Bosnia, Norn Irn etc.  I agree about moving the rat. ISIS will have to be destroyed but in addition to that there will have to be something to replace them. Nihilism is very alluring to thugs. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: haranguerer on October 14, 2014, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 08:25:00 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 13, 2014, 08:16:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 08:08:49 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 13, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 06:25:40 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

A good example of this is the marginal income tax rate here is now 52% while the Corporate Rate for trading income is 12.5% and in reality they pay nowhere near that.

Yet we have most political parties and media, up in arms at the very mention of changing the latter. The taxpayer bailed out the economy, but business will benefit from it. But say that out loud in Ireland and you'll incur the Wrath of Khan.

So you're advocating rising the CT rate?

Yes. Time to stop being the world's tax prostitute.
I'm not really good at international economics, but surely even to me, that's not a good thing to do for 'being the best small country in the world to do business' etc.

The tax isn't the only reason businesses come here. If it is, then we are screwed when someone goes lower.

English speaking, well educated workforce. Similar to the UK, but with worse infrastructure and geographically more remote. It's one of the main reasons, raising it to a comparable level to the UKs at this point in time would be a disaster
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on October 16, 2014, 06:06:03 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 14, 2014, 01:13:56 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 08:25:00 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 13, 2014, 08:16:46 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 08:08:49 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on October 13, 2014, 07:46:09 PM
Quote from: muppet on October 13, 2014, 06:25:40 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on October 13, 2014, 03:00:47 PM
Coming to the conclusion that democracy is a flawed system. The corporate power brokers get to steer the population with scare tactics using the media and 'win' the hearts and minds of the political elite to do their bidding. If only benevolent dictatorship was more than just a theoretical political system.

A good example of this is the marginal income tax rate here is now 52% while the Corporate Rate for trading income is 12.5% and in reality they pay nowhere near that.

Yet we have most political parties and media, up in arms at the very mention of changing the latter. The taxpayer bailed out the economy, but business will benefit from it. But say that out loud in Ireland and you'll incur the Wrath of Khan.

So you're advocating rising the CT rate?

Yes. Time to stop being the world's tax prostitute.
I'm not really good at international economics, but surely even to me, that's not a good thing to do for 'being the best small country in the world to do business' etc.

The tax isn't the only reason businesses come here. If it is, then we are screwed when someone goes lower.

English speaking, well educated workforce. Similar to the UK, but with worse infrastructure and geographically more remote. It's one of the main reasons, raising it to a comparable level to the UKs at this point in time would be a disaster

We are also in the Eurozone and are the only english speakers in the Euro Zone.

People forget where the low corporate tax rate came from. It was a whim of Charlie McCreevy (fiercely opposed by Dept. officials) along with the reduction in CGT, the introduction of SSIAs and tax reliefs on property (all since reversed). The resulting property boom offset the loss of tax revenue and as long as property prices kept rising, the stamp duty paid for the public service and everything was grand.

But that is all gone. Now income tax payers pay for everything. We have bailed out the banks and the economy. But any mention these days of raising the Corporate Tax rate is treated as treasonous and idiotic. I would have been singing from the same hymn sheet a few years ago, but I no longer buy the easy spin.

Ireland is now about the only EU country experiencing growth, mainly because we had proper austerity from the word go, and the others hadn't. But as we grow and they stall we should be slowly raising the Corporate Rate to be in line with the others. We still have other advantages.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: armaghniac on December 19, 2014, 03:15:06 PM
Kurds progressing, great for the poor craturs on the mountain. 

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30548304

Kurdish fighters say they have broken the Islamic State siege around Mount Sinjar in northern Iraq.
It is their biggest and most successful offensive against the Islamic militants, involving 80,000 Kurdish fighters.
With the help of US-led airstrikes they liberated thousands of people who were stuck up the mountain with limited food and water.
Jiyar Gol in Irbil says the mission has brought hope and optimism to Yazidis but that the Kurds are "a long way" from a complete victory.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: orangeman on May 19, 2015, 12:46:51 AM
ISIS on the March again. Ramadi taken over at the weekend.

The other side going for a row this weekend with them to try and take back Ramadi. It will make Waco look like a pillow fight.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 19, 2016, 10:44:29 PM
The Jihadis next door.... Was on four tonight.... Grim
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Declan on January 20, 2016, 08:46:38 AM
QuoteThe Jihadis next door.... Was on four tonight.... Grim

Yep - hard viewing as was the one on RTE 2 re the jihadi brides
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 20, 2016, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Declan on January 20, 2016, 08:46:38 AM
QuoteThe Jihadis next door.... Was on four tonight.... Grim

Yep - hard viewing as was the one on RTE 2 re the jihadi brides

So they want to go to Islamic states, the British government wont give them their passports, they want to keep them in Britain....Confused

If they go to Islamic states and fight the fight there? why not just give them their passports and not let them back in?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: mikehunt on January 20, 2016, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 20, 2016, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Declan on January 20, 2016, 08:46:38 AM
QuoteThe Jihadis next door.... Was on four tonight.... Grim

Yep - hard viewing as was the one on RTE 2 re the jihadi brides

So they want to go to Islamic states, the British government wont give them their passports, they want to keep them in Britain....Confused

If they go to Islamic states and fight the fight there? why not just give them their passports and not let them back in?

....and they pay them benefits. They're either in court (using taxpayers money) or out canvassing/recruiting. One of the clowns complained that the police took his daughter's Nintendo. Those boys appear to be total spoofers, they're happy to be celebrity jihadists, even one of them admitted he liked the notoriety as it made him feel important. They should all get what they wish for and be shipped out to Syria. I'm sure his daughter would enjoy playing her Nintendo out there.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on January 20, 2016, 04:39:24 PM
Quote from: mikehunt on January 20, 2016, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 20, 2016, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Declan on January 20, 2016, 08:46:38 AM
QuoteThe Jihadis next door.... Was on four tonight.... Grim

Yep - hard viewing as was the one on RTE 2 re the jihadi brides

So they want to go to Islamic states, the British government wont give them their passports, they want to keep them in Britain....Confused

If they go to Islamic states and fight the fight there? why not just give them their passports and not let them back in?

....and they pay them benefits. They're either in court (using taxpayers money) or out canvassing/recruiting. One of the clowns complained that the police took his daughter's Nintendo. Those boys appear to be total spoofers, they're happy to be celebrity jihadists, even one of them admitted he liked the notoriety as it made him feel important. They should all get what they wish for and be shipped out to Syria. I'm sure his daughter would enjoy playing her Nintendo out there.

IIRC under international law if you hold a British passport then you cannot be prevented from entering the UK, so the UK government should insist these lads change nationality to Iraqi or Syrian and then not let them back in.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 20, 2016, 05:08:56 PM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 20, 2016, 04:39:24 PM
Quote from: mikehunt on January 20, 2016, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 20, 2016, 11:38:54 AM
Quote from: Declan on January 20, 2016, 08:46:38 AM
QuoteThe Jihadis next door.... Was on four tonight.... Grim

Yep - hard viewing as was the one on RTE 2 re the jihadi brides

So they want to go to Islamic states, the British government wont give them their passports, they want to keep them in Britain....Confused

If they go to Islamic states and fight the fight there? why not just give them their passports and not let them back in?

....and they pay them benefits. They're either in court (using taxpayers money) or out canvassing/recruiting. One of the clowns complained that the police took his daughter's Nintendo. Those boys appear to be total spoofers, they're happy to be celebrity jihadists, even one of them admitted he liked the notoriety as it made him feel important. They should all get what they wish for and be shipped out to Syria. I'm sure his daughter would enjoy playing her Nintendo out there.

IIRC under international law if you hold a British passport then you cannot be prevented from entering the UK, so the UK government should insist these lads change nationality to Iraqi or Syrian and then not let them back in.

So this is the reason why they take the passports away!! But Iraq and Syria won't accept them either ffs!!

Hopefully with the population shift that the 99% normal Muslims won't entertain these clampits..
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The bastards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: No wides on January 20, 2016, 10:35:10 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The b**tards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.

That the least of the crimes they committed.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on January 21, 2016, 10:01:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The b**tards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.
Ah now that has just put me right off them. I was on the fence there for a while.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Franko on January 21, 2016, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The b**tards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.

Suicide bombings, beheadings, mass slaughter, rape, torture, ethnic cleansing... etc etc

Seafoid calls them 'bastards' for destroying a monastery.

I wonder about you.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 06:30:08 PM
Definitely a strange statement, Seafoid
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 21, 2016, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The b**tards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.

Suicide bombings, beheadings, mass slaughter, rape, torture, ethnic cleansing... etc etc

Seafoid calls them 'b**tards' for destroying a monastery.

I wonder about you.
the Yanks used the monastery for target practice in 2003 until a chaplain figured out the importance of the site
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: gallsman on January 21, 2016, 08:01:27 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 06:30:08 PM
Definitely a strange statement, Seafoid

How on earth is it a strange statement?! It was news of the day, that was worthy of comment.

Before 9/11, nobody gave a f**k about the Taliban or their treatment of women until they blew up some statues.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 08:48:55 PM
Strange statement from a poster who hasn't used such strong words to describe ISIS previously, given the human atrocities they are perpetuating. They blow up a monastery and now they're bastards?

9/11 claimed just shy of 3,000 deaths, on foreign soil, a little more than a few statues. That's surprising to you that interest in the Taliban/Al Qaeda piqued after that?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: gallsman on January 21, 2016, 09:27:22 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 08:48:55 PM
Strange statement from a poster who hasn't used such strong words to describe ISIS previously, given the human atrocities they are perpetuating. They blow up a monastery and now they're b**tards?

9/11 claimed just shy of 3,000 deaths, on foreign soil, a little more than a few statues. That's surprising to you that interest in the Taliban/Al Qaeda piqued after that?

Ah right, I see. So because, he hasn't used such words previously (I don't know if he has or not, but I do know he's strongly condemned Islamic extremism such as wahabbism), that means that his opinion on them has turned because they blew up a historic building? As in he previously thought they were a great bunch of lads? People looking to get offended ffs.

As for the statues bit, trying reading my post again, particularly the bit that says "before 9/11". If you can't see the relevance of this, I'll explain it a bit further. The Taliban destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas was the first time, for many, that the Taliban came to prominence. It caused outrage. It was condemned. See any parallels?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 09:58:33 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 08:48:55 PM
Strange statement from a poster who hasn't used such strong words to describe ISIS previously, given the human atrocities they are perpetuating. They blow up a monastery and now they're b**tards?

9/11 claimed just shy of 3,000 deaths, on foreign soil, a little more than a few statues. That's surprising to you that interest in the Taliban/Al Qaeda piqued after that?
Sorry Puck I didn't realise I was being analysed. All of the professional killers in the region are b**tards and that includes Yanks. I wonder if ISIS treat their injured fighters as badly as the US does, Walter Reed styLe. .
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 10:00:15 PM
Quote from: gallsman on January 21, 2016, 09:27:22 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 08:48:55 PM
Strange statement from a poster who hasn't used such strong words to describe ISIS previously, given the human atrocities they are perpetuating. They blow up a monastery and now they're b**tards?

9/11 claimed just shy of 3,000 deaths, on foreign soil, a little more than a few statues. That's surprising to you that interest in the Taliban/Al Qaeda piqued after that?

Ah right, I see. So because, he hasn't used such words previously (I don't know if he has or not, but I do know he's strongly condemned Islamic extremism such as wahabbism), that means that his opinion on them has turned because they blew up a historic building? As in he previously thought they were a great bunch of lads? People looking to get offended ffs.

The irony of that last statement is hard to overlook - what makes you elicit that I'm offended by the comment?

I thought it strange - given his previous lack of outrage (in such terms) about other activities of the group. I'd never lump him in as an apologist for ISIS or Jihads (other antagonists might) - but his posts have a certain pragmatic approach to explaining why you can not discount that their activities are highly influenced by the evil of the West and the various going ons in the area. I thought it was strange and passed comment on it. Perhaps he has called them bastards elsewhere when they killed in recent attacks and I just missed it. Perhaps timing IS everything and it's merely a misunderstanding of context, or it really could be people looking to be offended.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 10:04:48 PM
I think there is a huge difference between Hezbollah and Hamas and crucifixioners and slave holders like ISIS. I would love to know who funds them. Economic depressions always feature war. It is a fabulous way of destroying capital in order to facilitate future growth. And war spending is the only acceptable form of deficit spending in DC. Just saying, like.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 10:06:33 PM
OK So they are labelled b**tards now above, along with the yanks (for good measure and parity) - that's that settled then and all the offence about the offence and the outrage about the outrage can be put to bed.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 10:23:59 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 10:06:33 PM
OK So they are labelled b**tards now above, along with the yanks (for good measure and parity) - that's that settled then and all the offense about the offense and the outrage about the outrage can be put to bed.
Actually puck they are a sign of a brutal future where there will be no protection whatsoever for civilians, no Geneva Conventions,  torture as standard.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on January 21, 2016, 11:14:49 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 10:04:48 PM
I think there is a huge difference between Hezbollah and Hamas and crucifixioners and slave holders like ISIS. I would love to know who funds them. Economic depressions always feature war. It is a fabulous way of destroying capital in order to facilitate future growth. And war spending is the only acceptable form of deficit spending in DC. Just saying, like.

So the radicals in Britain (and other Western countries) are being funded by warmongers?? With a view to sell arms and make money?? More guns in a dodgy LA suburb than with Isis terrorist id imagine
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on January 22, 2016, 12:35:44 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on January 21, 2016, 11:14:49 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 10:04:48 PM
I think there is a huge difference between Hezbollah and Hamas and crucifixioners and slave holders like ISIS. I would love to know who funds them. Economic depressions always feature war. It is a fabulous way of destroying capital in order to facilitate future growth. And war spending is the only acceptable form of deficit spending in DC. Just saying, like.

So the radicals in Britain (and other Western countries) are being funded by warmongers?? With a view to sell arms and make money?? More guns in a dodgy LA suburb than with Isis terrorist id imagine
They have a very sophisticated recruitment machine. A lot of money went into ISIS
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Franko on January 22, 2016, 09:18:02 AM
Quote from: gallsman on January 21, 2016, 09:27:22 PM
Quote from: Puckoon on January 21, 2016, 08:48:55 PM
Strange statement from a poster who hasn't used such strong words to describe ISIS previously, given the human atrocities they are perpetuating. They blow up a monastery and now they're b**tards?

9/11 claimed just shy of 3,000 deaths, on foreign soil, a little more than a few statues. That's surprising to you that interest in the Taliban/Al Qaeda piqued after that?

Ah right, I see. So because, he hasn't used such words previously (I don't know if he has or not, but I do know he's strongly condemned Islamic extremism such as wahabbism), that means that his opinion on them has turned because they blew up a historic building? As in he previously thought they were a great bunch of lads? People looking to get offended ffs.

As for the statues bit, trying reading my post again, particularly the bit that says "before 9/11". If you can't see the relevance of this, I'll explain it a bit further. The Taliban destruction of the Bamiyan Buddhas was the first time, for many, that the Taliban came to prominence. It caused outrage. It was condemned. See any parallels?

Nobody seems to be offended (or even angry) except you gallsman.  Just pointing out that I'd never seen seafoid describe ISIS in such an unambiguously negative manner until they blew up the monastery.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Franko on January 22, 2016, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 21, 2016, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The b**tards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.

Suicide bombings, beheadings, mass slaughter, rape, torture, ethnic cleansing... etc etc

Seafoid calls them 'b**tards' for destroying a monastery.

I wonder about you.
the Yanks used the monastery for target practice in 2003 until a chaplain figured out the importance of the site

Relevance?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on January 22, 2016, 11:50:28 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 22, 2016, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 21, 2016, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The b**tards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.

Suicide bombings, beheadings, mass slaughter, rape, torture, ethnic cleansing... etc etc

Seafoid calls them 'b**tards' for destroying a monastery.

I wonder about you.
the Yanks used the monastery for target practice in 2003 until a chaplain figured out the importance of the site

Relevance?
Nobody gives a f**k about Iraq's cultural history
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Franko on January 22, 2016, 12:27:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2016, 11:50:28 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 22, 2016, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 21, 2016, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The b**tards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.

Suicide bombings, beheadings, mass slaughter, rape, torture, ethnic cleansing... etc etc

Seafoid calls them 'b**tards' for destroying a monastery.

I wonder about you.
the Yanks used the monastery for target practice in 2003 until a chaplain figured out the importance of the site

Relevance?
Nobody gives a f**k about Iraq's cultural history

Except the yanks who, upon realising the cultural significance of the place, stopped using it as 'target practice' (according to yourself).
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on January 22, 2016, 05:08:00 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 22, 2016, 12:27:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2016, 11:50:28 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 22, 2016, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 21, 2016, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The b**tards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.

Suicide bombings, beheadings, mass slaughter, rape, torture, ethnic cleansing... etc etc

Seafoid calls them 'b**tards' for destroying a monastery.

I wonder about you.
the Yanks used the monastery for target practice in 2003 until a chaplain figured out the importance of the site

Relevance?
Nobody gives a f**k about Iraq's cultural history

Except the yanks who, upon realising the cultural significance of the place, stopped using it as 'target practice' (according to yourself).
They stood by when the Looting started in 2003 as well. Tsk Tsk. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Franko on January 22, 2016, 05:44:43 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2016, 05:08:00 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 22, 2016, 12:27:39 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 22, 2016, 11:50:28 AM
Quote from: Franko on January 22, 2016, 10:59:27 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 21, 2016, 07:30:35 PM
Quote from: Franko on January 21, 2016, 04:39:45 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 20, 2016, 09:43:38 PM
The b**tards destroyed a 1600 year old monastery in Mosul.

Suicide bombings, beheadings, mass slaughter, rape, torture, ethnic cleansing... etc etc

Seafoid calls them 'b**tards' for destroying a monastery.

I wonder about you.
the Yanks used the monastery for target practice in 2003 until a chaplain figured out the importance of the site

Relevance?
Nobody gives a f**k about Iraq's cultural history

Except the yanks who, upon realising the cultural significance of the place, stopped using it as 'target practice' (according to yourself).
They stood by when the Looting started in 2003 as well. Tsk Tsk.

Again, relevance?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: SHEEDY on July 14, 2016, 09:31:42 PM
Ross Kemp is helping to fight isis on sky 1 now   :P  Good enough show so far.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 14, 2016, 09:33:26 PM
Quote from: SHEEDY on July 14, 2016, 09:31:42 PM
Ross Kemp is helping to fight isis on sky 1 now, good enough show so far.
I'll have a tenner on Grant. He is very good in these documentaries.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 14, 2016, 11:02:48 PM
Lorry driven into a crowd in Nice celebrating Bastille Day. "Dozens" dead or injured. Not looking good.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Minder on July 14, 2016, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 14, 2016, 11:02:48 PM
Lorry driven into a crowd in Nice celebrating Bastille Day. "Dozens" dead or injured. Not looking good.

30 dead at least
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: SHEEDY on July 14, 2016, 11:19:32 PM
Quote from: Minder on July 14, 2016, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 14, 2016, 11:02:48 PM
Lorry driven into a crowd in Nice celebrating Bastille Day. "Dozens" dead or injured. Not looking good.

30 dead at least
driver of the lorry shot dead, a suspected accomplice on the run.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 14, 2016, 11:39:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on July 14, 2016, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 14, 2016, 11:02:48 PM
Lorry driven into a crowd in Nice celebrating Bastille Day. "Dozens" dead or injured. Not looking good.

30 dead at least
reports say 60 now
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Rossfan on July 14, 2016, 11:47:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2016, 11:39:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on July 14, 2016, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 14, 2016, 11:02:48 PM
Lorry driven into a crowd in Nice celebrating Bastille Day. "Dozens" dead or injured. Not looking good.

30 dead at least
reports say 60 now
Jesus!!!
How does that help whatever "cause" those cnuts espouse??
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: armaghniac on July 15, 2016, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2016, 11:47:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2016, 11:39:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on July 14, 2016, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 14, 2016, 11:02:48 PM
Lorry driven into a crowd in Nice celebrating Bastille Day. "Dozens" dead or injured. Not looking good.

30 dead at least
reports say 60 now
Jesus!!!
How does that help whatever "cause" those cnuts espouse??

It spreads terror.
And of course it is very hard to stop all the different ways this can be done.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: blewuporstuffed on July 15, 2016, 12:31:56 AM
Sky news reporting 73 dead now.
My brother and his girlfriend in Nice today,  but thankfully both OK.
Scary stuff
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 15, 2016, 12:38:58 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 15, 2016, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2016, 11:47:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2016, 11:39:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on July 14, 2016, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 14, 2016, 11:02:48 PM
Lorry driven into a crowd in Nice celebrating Bastille Day. "Dozens" dead or injured. Not looking good.

30 dead at least
reports say 60 now
Jesus!!!
How does that help whatever "cause" those cnuts espouse??

It spreads terror.
And of course it is very hard to stop all the different ways this can be done.

Yep, terrorists do that, we should know, all forms used here for decades... On the scale of terrorists/freedom fighters, where do they stand with you? Freedom fighters or terrorist?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2016, 01:43:10 AM
Quote from: armaghniac on July 15, 2016, 12:05:00 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 14, 2016, 11:47:50 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 14, 2016, 11:39:46 PM
Quote from: Minder on July 14, 2016, 11:10:10 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 14, 2016, 11:02:48 PM
Lorry driven into a crowd in Nice celebrating Bastille Day. "Dozens" dead or injured. Not looking good.

30 dead at least
reports say 60 now
Jesus!!!
How does that help whatever "cause" those cnuts espouse??

It spreads terror.
And of course it is very hard to stop all the different ways this can be done.
Strengthening civil society so young men don't get lured by fascism . Jobs. Patient police work.  Deflation does not help. Le Pen will love it and say she is right
France was v gung Ho Under Sarkozy in Libya. Hollande bombed a few countries as well. The Bataclan perpetrators were linked with Belgium.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Gmac on July 15, 2016, 04:07:09 AM
When the government can't protect you or your family from bombings or acts like today and the perpetrators are your neighbours or live where you live ,what options are you left with .  this is not going to end well  can see another Bosnia or something similar coming .
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dinny Breen on July 15, 2016, 09:04:52 AM
Was in Nice last night when it happened, I was picking up my Dad from the airport when it was happening. Had contemplated bringing the family and taken in the celebrations but his flight was delayed 2 hours so didn't give the celebrations a second thought. Very surreal here at the moment.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Rois on July 15, 2016, 09:28:49 AM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 15, 2016, 09:04:52 AM
Was in Nice last night when it happened, I was picking up my Dad from the airport when it was happening. Had contemplated bringing the family and taken in the celebrations but his flight was delayed 2 hours so didn't give the celebrations a second thought. Very surreal here at the moment.
Jeez how awful but glad you're safe. 

We were on the Promenade des Anglais for Bastille Day two years ago watching the fireworks and I remember squeezing through the crowds so it would have been exactly the same last night.  This global terrorism is just so close to us. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 09:32:43 AM
Any actual evidence it was Islamist extremists?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: imtommygunn on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 AM
I think an easy jet flight from NI was cancelled to there yesterday. I saw someone on Facebook saying they were planning to be there but for the flight cancellation. Scary stuff.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: OakleafCounty on July 15, 2016, 09:50:06 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 09:32:43 AM
Any actual evidence it was Islamist extremists?

What else could it have been?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2016, 09:50:33 AM
The authorities did a fantastic job with the Euros and now this
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Lar Naparka on July 15, 2016, 10:00:42 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 AM
I think an easy jet flight from NI was cancelled to there yesterday. I saw someone on Facebook saying they were planning to be there but for the flight cancellation. Scary stuff.
No mistake about it, World War III is in right now.  Even though there aren't conventional armies in the field, the danger is no less deadly. There can be no compromise with the Jihadists- it's them or the rest of humanity.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Farrandeelin on July 15, 2016, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 15, 2016, 10:00:42 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 AM
I think an easy jet flight from NI was cancelled to there yesterday. I saw someone on Facebook saying they were planning to be there but for the flight cancellation. Scary stuff.
No mistake about it, World War III is in right now.  Even though there aren't conventional armies in the field, the danger is no less deadly. There can be no compromise with the Jihadists- it's them or the rest of humanity.

Would agree with this, unfortunately this war can't be won. Especially if any body's neighbours can go and join them.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 10:14:36 AM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on July 15, 2016, 09:50:06 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 09:32:43 AM
Any actual evidence it was Islamist extremists?

What else could it have been?
An unstable individual with an axe to grind.

There have been many mass-killings around the world not related to Islamic terrorists. I'm not suggesting it isn't an Islamic attack. I was just asking if there was any official statement on it.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on July 15, 2016, 10:18:52 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 10:14:36 AM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on July 15, 2016, 09:50:06 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 09:32:43 AM
Any actual evidence it was Islamist extremists?

What else could it have been?
An unstable individual with an axe to grind.

There have been many mass-killings around the world not related to Islamic terrorists. I'm not suggesting it isn't an Islamic attack. I was just asking if there was any official statement on it.

Hollande's statement said that "All of France is under an Islamist terrorist threat"
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: armaghniac on July 15, 2016, 10:26:59 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 10:14:36 AM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on July 15, 2016, 09:50:06 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 09:32:43 AM
Any actual evidence it was Islamist extremists?

What else could it have been?
An unstable individual with an axe to grind.

There have been many mass-killings around the world not related to Islamic terrorists. I'm not suggesting it isn't an Islamic attack. I was just asking if there was any official statement on it.

This guy could do this without any connection to anyone, just go and a  rent a truck. Legitimised by Islamic violence, but doing so independently.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Declan on July 15, 2016, 10:27:30 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CTvBGbiUYAA6bVk.png:large)

ISIS's goal from their own publication. A black & white world. What they call "grayzone" is our coexistence zone.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on July 15, 2016, 10:29:21 AM
Cant even say 'unbelievable' anymore to describe these events, a sign of the world we live in. My heart goes out to all affected by these atrocities which occur all around the world. Always the innocent who pay with their lives.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Boycey on July 15, 2016, 10:50:31 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 15, 2016, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 15, 2016, 10:00:42 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 AM
I think an easy jet flight from NI was cancelled to there yesterday. I saw someone on Facebook saying they were planning to be there but for the flight cancellation. Scary stuff.
No mistake about it, World War III is in right now.  Even though there aren't conventional armies in the field, the danger is no less deadly. There can be no compromise with the Jihadists- it's them or the rest of humanity.

Would agree with this, unfortunately this war can't be won. Especially if any body's neighbours can go and join them.

You can't defeat an army who are not bothered about being killed in the fighting.  Unless there is a change in their beliefs or how they want to 'promote' their ideology then terrorist attacks like these will never end.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2016, 11:21:13 AM
Quote from: Boycey on July 15, 2016, 10:50:31 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 15, 2016, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 15, 2016, 10:00:42 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 AM
I think an easy jet flight from NI was cancelled to there yesterday. I saw someone on Facebook saying they were planning to be there but for the flight cancellation. Scary stuff.
No mistake about it, World War III is in right now.  Even though there aren't conventional armies in the field, the danger is no less deadly. There can be no compromise with the Jihadists- it's them or the rest of humanity.

Would agree with this, unfortunately this war can't be won. Especially if any body's neighbours can go and join them.

You can't defeat an army who are not bothered about being killed in the fighting.  Unless there is a change in their beliefs or how they want to 'promote' their ideology then terrorist attacks like these will never end.

There is a lot of work that can be done to cut off recruitment. The jihadis target weak and lost people who don't identify with the system and then indoctrinate them to kill. 

It was possible to turn poor nordies away from paramilitary gangs so it is not rocket science. The thing is it costs serious money.  The Brits understood that eventually. 
the understanding of the culture of the target market is very poor. Money is spent instead on missiles.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Rossfan on July 15, 2016, 11:48:12 AM
The price of one of those missiles would provide how many public jobs or training courses for a year??
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on July 15, 2016, 11:53:38 AM
Jesus reading that wench Hopkins on twitter would fairly make the blood boil!!! A horrible human being is all she is!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 15, 2016, 11:56:30 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 15, 2016, 11:21:13 AM
Quote from: Boycey on July 15, 2016, 10:50:31 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 15, 2016, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 15, 2016, 10:00:42 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 AM
I think an easy jet flight from NI was cancelled to there yesterday. I saw someone on Facebook saying they were planning to be there but for the flight cancellation. Scary stuff.
No mistake about it, World War III is in right now.  Even though there aren't conventional armies in the field, the danger is no less deadly. There can be no compromise with the Jihadists- it's them or the rest of humanity.

Would agree with this, unfortunately this war can't be won. Especially if any body's neighbours can go and join them.

You can't defeat an army who are not bothered about being killed in the fighting.  Unless there is a change in their beliefs or how they want to 'promote' their ideology then terrorist attacks like these will never end.

There is a lot of work that can be done to cut off recruitment. The jihadis target weak and lost people who don't identify with the system and then indoctrinate them to kill. 

It was possible to turn poor nordies away from paramilitary gangs so it is not rocket science. The thing is it costs serious money.  The Brits understood that eventually. 
the understanding of the culture of the target market is very poor. Money is spent instead on missiles.

Would that work for the Dublin based gangs also?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: ballinaman on July 15, 2016, 12:09:03 PM
Just saw the video that's circulating of the aftermath, horrendous.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: easytiger95 on July 15, 2016, 12:09:57 PM
Quote from: Boycey on July 15, 2016, 10:50:31 AM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on July 15, 2016, 10:09:16 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on July 15, 2016, 10:00:42 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 15, 2016, 09:48:50 AM
I think an easy jet flight from NI was cancelled to there yesterday. I saw someone on Facebook saying they were planning to be there but for the flight cancellation. Scary stuff.
No mistake about it, World War III is in right now.  Even though there aren't conventional armies in the field, the danger is no less deadly. There can be no compromise with the Jihadists- it's them or the rest of humanity.

Would agree with this, unfortunately this war can't be won. Especially if any body's neighbours can go and join them.

You can't defeat an army who are not bothered about being killed in the fighting.  Unless there is a change in their beliefs or how they want to 'promote' their ideology then terrorist attacks like these will never end.


Equally Boycey, nor can Western democracies be militarily defeated by groups that usually sustain 100% casualties on each operation.

These attacks are disgusting and increasingly more common place  but we need to realise that it is as easy for any deranged individual to claim affiliation with ISIS as it is for me to stick on my Dubs jersey and tell people that I play intercounty. The difference being that I can't get anywhere near a pitch, whilst all it takes is for the deranged individual to get some boxcutters or a truck to be acclaimed as  terrorist/freedom fighter.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: macdanger2 on July 15, 2016, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on July 15, 2016, 12:09:57 PM

These attacks are disgusting and increasingly more common place  but we need to realise that it is as easy for any deranged individual to claim affiliation with ISIS as it is for me to stick on my Dubs jersey and tell people that I play intercounty. The difference being that I can't get anywhere near a pitch, whilst all it takes is for the deranged individual to get some boxcutters or a truck to be acclaimed as  terrorist/freedom fighter.

It works for Indiana
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 15, 2016, 02:01:40 PM
There's no point sitting back and saying 'ah sure what can ye do'.....the international world has to start somewhere.

How about the west getting their filthy paws out of the middle east for a start, bring parties together and try to get a resolution. If they spent half the money that has been invested in lethal weapons on fuelling peace then we wouldn't have this mess.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: easytiger95 on July 15, 2016, 02:04:24 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 15, 2016, 01:55:35 PM
Quote from: easytiger95 on July 15, 2016, 12:09:57 PM

These attacks are disgusting and increasingly more common place  but we need to realise that it is as easy for any deranged individual to claim affiliation with ISIS as it is for me to stick on my Dubs jersey and tell people that I play intercounty. The difference being that I can't get anywhere near a pitch, whilst all it takes is for the deranged individual to get some boxcutters or a truck to be acclaimed as  terrorist/freedom fighter.

It works for Indiana

;D
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2016, 03:04:28 PM
There needs to be better control of jihadi mosques as well. And an end to wars of choice in the Middle East . I was watching a video of Netanyahu telling a Congress committee in 02  that he would guarantee that an attack on Saddam would bring peace and prosperity to the region. All the warmongers have to be neutralised.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Keepthefaith93 on July 15, 2016, 03:53:47 PM
Charging Tony Blair & George W. with war crimes for their illegal war would be as good a place as any to start with in sorting this mess out.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thebuzz on July 15, 2016, 04:10:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 15, 2016, 09:50:33 AM
The authorities did a fantastic job with the Euros and now this

If they had wanted to commit an atrocity during the Euros they would have done so. They just chose not to. How could the authorities stop something like this?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: The Iceman on July 15, 2016, 04:23:25 PM
Quote from: thebuzz on July 15, 2016, 04:10:23 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 15, 2016, 09:50:33 AM
The authorities did a fantastic job with the Euros and now this

If they had wanted to commit an atrocity during the Euros they would have done so. They just chose not to. How could the authorities stop something like this?
There's no way to combat guerilla warfare. The IRA proved that over the decades and they were a very small unit.  ISIS is a massive outfit. We're all on the losing side of a war right now....
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: whiskeysteve on July 15, 2016, 04:54:10 PM
I don't think you can compare this to guerrilla warfare elsewhere. You could wipe ISIS off the map in the middle east and have this happen again. You are fighting deranged individuals who pick up murderous intent from YouTube etc and have no thought for self preservation at all. 'Organisations' just claim them as brethren after. There is no command structure to destroy or negotiate with. Very scary times.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on July 15, 2016, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 15, 2016, 10:18:52 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 10:14:36 AM
Quote from: OakleafCounty on July 15, 2016, 09:50:06 AM
Quote from: Esmarelda on July 15, 2016, 09:32:43 AM
Any actual evidence it was Islamist extremists?

What else could it have been?
An unstable individual with an axe to grind.

There have been many mass-killings around the world not related to Islamic terrorists. I'm not suggesting it isn't an Islamic attack. I was just asking if there was any official statement on it.

Hollande's statement said that "All of France is under an Islamist terrorist threat"
I think that he and we are all guilty of a poor choice of terminology here. They identify themselves as fighting for Islam. Most of thecIslamic world does not. From my limited knowledge they mainly follow the Wahhabi ideology. If they were referred to them as Wahabs or whatever it begins to differentiate them from the majority of the Muslim and perhaps stops the ghettoization of true Muslims.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Eamonnca1 on July 15, 2016, 07:08:32 PM
You might be right, Leo. Isn't Wahabbism a Saudi export?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on July 15, 2016, 07:19:37 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 15, 2016, 07:08:32 PM
You might be right, Leo. Isn't Wahabbism a Saudi export?
Yep, funded to the tune of Billions but Said royal family to close to west to be called out on it.

They need to be identified and isolated, not allowed to hide behind the 1.2 billion real Muslims.
A side benefit of differentiating them is it may reduce the vilification of real Muslims which can push the more vulnerable into the arms if those who would radicalise them.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omagh_gael on July 15, 2016, 07:23:23 PM
What's the chances of some right wing nut, armed to the teeth, storming a mosque or some Muslim 'target' seeking retribution?

It was only a few weeks before the Euros that a French guy was detained on the Ukrainian border with an arsenal that could sustain a small army.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: The Iceman on July 15, 2016, 07:30:08 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on July 15, 2016, 07:23:23 PM
What's the chances of some right wing nut, armed to the teeth, storming a mosque or some Muslim 'target' seeking retribution?

It was only a few weeks before the Euros that a French guy was detained on the Ukrainian border with an arsenal that could sustain a small army.
theres some talk of it over here omagh-gael I've certainly seen comments and heard whispers of taking America back.  People mentioning post WWII tactics that were applied to the Germans and Japanese in America might work on muslims....
theres a lot of very capable, very proud, armed and angry folks out there...
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 15, 2016, 09:25:01 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 15, 2016, 07:30:08 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on July 15, 2016, 07:23:23 PM
What's the chances of some right wing nut, armed to the teeth, storming a mosque or some Muslim 'target' seeking retribution?

It was only a few weeks before the Euros that a French guy was detained on the Ukrainian border with an arsenal that could sustain a small army.
theres some talk of it over here omagh-gael I've certainly seen comments and heard whispers of taking America back.  People mentioning post WWII tactics that were applied to the Germans and Japanese in America might work on muslims....
theres a lot of very capable, very proud, armed and angry folks out there...

The question is, are they stupid enough to murder innocent people?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Boycey on July 15, 2016, 09:33:20 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on July 15, 2016, 07:30:08 PM
Quote from: omagh_gael on July 15, 2016, 07:23:23 PM
What's the chances of some right wing nut, armed to the teeth, storming a mosque or some Muslim 'target' seeking retribution?

It was only a few weeks before the Euros that a French guy was detained on the Ukrainian border with an arsenal that could sustain a small army.
theres some talk of it over here omagh-gael I've certainly seen comments and heard whispers of taking America back.  People mentioning post WWII tactics that were applied to the Germans and Japanese in America might work on muslims....
theres a lot of very capable, very proud, armed and angry folks out there...

Just what the situation needs, a load of irate armed to the tooth Yanks
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 15, 2016, 10:07:06 PM
French intelligence is byzantine

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/15/francois-hollande-faces-political-backlash-nice-attack
Former president Nicolas Sarkozy, leader of Les Républicains, also responded to the attacks with a call for a security crackdown. In an interview with Le Figaro in June, Sarkozy called for all jihadi prisoners to be kept in solitary confinement, the creation of a prison intelligence agency and electronic surveillance of prison cells.
He also called for any foreigner connected with terrorist activities or networks to be deported immediately, and for the establishment of de-radicalisation centres for convicted individuals. He said "prison was for the punishment for the horrors that have been committed", but added that terrorists should not be released until they have been through a programme that leads to them being certified as no longer a threat to society.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Minder on July 15, 2016, 10:21:43 PM
Read a bit earlier and they haven't been able to link this fella yet to any terrorist watch lists and he seems to have been a disgruntled boy, just split up with the wife etc
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Nigel White on July 22, 2016, 09:00:13 PM
In Munich at the minute. It's mental. We were in the railway station when it was cleared, people running everywhere, scary stuff. We were evacuated to station basement for half an hour before we got the all clear. Back in our hotel now safe and well.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: downtown on July 22, 2016, 11:33:25 PM
This is getting crazy now. Too much of this carry on going on. Is this likely to happen here in Ireland or in uk?? As long as your safe now Nigel. It doesn't look like all is clear in Munich yet tho
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: dec on July 23, 2016, 12:47:57 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers

It is the anniversary of the Anders Behring Breivik attack in Norway
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 23, 2016, 12:49:29 AM
Quote from: downtown on July 22, 2016, 11:33:25 PM
This is getting crazy now. Too much of this carry on going on. Is this likely to happen here in Ireland or in uk?? As long as your safe now Nigel. It doesn't look like all is clear in Munich yet tho

Ffs it happened here for 30 odd years!! I remember one sat morning heading to club and tracer bullets were flying down the street, blast bombs going off at the corner, snatch squads charging into peoples houses, and black taxi going down side streets cause burning buses were blocking roads!! That was the norm, no one batted an eyelid and the game was still on...

Why would it happen here??
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Gmac on July 23, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
wrong .  German -Iranian another Muslim nut job
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: longballin on July 23, 2016, 02:02:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on July 23, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
wrong .  German -Iranian another Muslim nut job

world is full of nut jobs unfortunatly some have access to weapons... check out all the mass shootings in the US...
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 23, 2016, 02:17:42 PM
Quote from: Gmac on July 23, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
wrong .  German -Iranian another Muslim nut job

It would seem from what they've announced so far that you may be wrong also if your implication is that this was an act of Islamic terrorism.

Some of the victims were muslims, eight were non-German, and there are suggestions that he lured them to the McDonalds.



Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 10:58:53 AM
Attack on church in northern France. 2 hostages and priest dead.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36892785

Cowardly b*stards!!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Boycey on July 26, 2016, 11:02:00 AM
If twitter is to be believed this is a particularly gruesome attack...

The world is truly going mad.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: Boycey on July 26, 2016, 11:02:00 AM
If twitter is to be believed this is a particularly gruesome attack...

The world is truly going mad.

Link boycey?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on July 26, 2016, 11:09:28 AM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 11:06:36 AM
Quote from: Boycey on July 26, 2016, 11:02:00 AM
If twitter is to be believed this is a particularly gruesome attack...

The world is truly going mad.

Link boycey?

Piers Morgan on Twitter has it. Horrible!!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 11:13:10 AM
Jesus theyre animals.

Not once in this whole time has a mosque been hit. I don't think it'll be long til we see that. Exactly what IS want!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: stew on July 26, 2016, 11:17:09 AM
Quote from: longballin on July 23, 2016, 02:02:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on July 23, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
wrong .  German -Iranian another Muslim nut job

world is full of nut jobs unfortunatly some have access to weapons... check out all the mass shootings in the US...

Why stop there, ban all knives longer than two inches long, I am all for gun control but don't pretend knives are not killing people.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnneycool on July 26, 2016, 11:21:16 AM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2016, 11:17:09 AM
Quote from: longballin on July 23, 2016, 02:02:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on July 23, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
wrong .  German -Iranian another Muslim nut job

world is full of nut jobs unfortunatly some have access to weapons... check out all the mass shootings in the US...

Why stop there, ban all knives longer than two inches long, I am all for gun control but don't pretend knives are not killing people.

Ban lorries as well while you are at it.

FFS,
   If someone is mentally disturbed enough to kill and go on a rampage, then don't make it easy for them to get semi-automatic weapons to ease the process. It'd take some stabbing to kill 10 to 20 people, but with a semi-automatic assault rifle, a few minutes would do it.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on July 26, 2016, 11:52:54 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 26, 2016, 11:21:16 AM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2016, 11:17:09 AM
Quote from: longballin on July 23, 2016, 02:02:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on July 23, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
wrong .  German -Iranian another Muslim nut job

world is full of nut jobs unfortunatly some have access to weapons... check out all the mass shootings in the US...

Why stop there, ban all knives longer than two inches long, I am all for gun control but don't pretend knives are not killing people.

Ban lorries as well while you are at it.

FFS,
   If someone is mentally disturbed enough to kill and go on a rampage, then don't make it easy for them to get semi-automatic weapons to ease the process. It'd take some stabbing to kill 10 to 20 people, but with a semi-automatic assault rifle, a few minutes would do it.

Careful now . . . you're trying to bring logic to an argument here and we can't be having that!!!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2016, 11:56:33 AM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2016, 11:17:09 AM
Quote from: longballin on July 23, 2016, 02:02:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on July 23, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
wrong .  German -Iranian another Muslim nut job

world is full of nut jobs unfortunatly some have access to weapons... check out all the mass shootings in the US...

Why stop there, ban all knives longer than two inches long, I am all for gun control but don't pretend knives are not killing people.

No you are not. You cheer for Republicans who are bought and paid for by the NRA.

As for knives, no one is pretending the knives aren't killing people. Who exactly are you arguing with? Is it the same imaginary person who thinks Hillary is 'squeaky clean'?

This priest was 92 years old. It takes a very sick mind to harm an innocent man of that age. But you wouldn't need much in the way of firepower to do him in.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: stew on July 26, 2016, 03:21:39 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2016, 11:56:33 AM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2016, 11:17:09 AM
Quote from: longballin on July 23, 2016, 02:02:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on July 23, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
wrong .  German -Iranian another Muslim nut job

world is full of nut jobs unfortunatly some have access to weapons... check out all the mass shootings in the US...

Why stop there, ban all knives longer than two inches long, I am all for gun control but don't pretend knives are not killing people.

No you are not. You cheer for Republicans who are bought and paid for by the NRA.

As for knives, no one is pretending the knives aren't killing people. Who exactly are you arguing with? Is it the same imaginary person who thinks Hillary is 'squeaky clean'?

This priest was 92 years old. It takes a very sick mind to harm an innocent man of that age. But you wouldn't need much in the way of firepower to do him in.

Are you on drugs?

What republican am I cheering for you numpty?

Go on, show me this imaginary republican I am cheering on?

You are a liar!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2016, 03:54:11 PM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2016, 03:21:39 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2016, 11:56:33 AM
Quote from: stew on July 26, 2016, 11:17:09 AM
Quote from: longballin on July 23, 2016, 02:02:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on July 23, 2016, 01:49:30 AM
Quote from: Minder on July 22, 2016, 08:16:30 PM
Quote from: dec on July 22, 2016, 08:15:14 PM
Now an attack in Munich

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36870874

Looks like German right wingers
wrong .  German -Iranian another Muslim nut job

world is full of nut jobs unfortunatly some have access to weapons... check out all the mass shootings in the US...

Why stop there, ban all knives longer than two inches long, I am all for gun control but don't pretend knives are not killing people.

No you are not. You cheer for Republicans who are bought and paid for by the NRA.

As for knives, no one is pretending the knives aren't killing people. Who exactly are you arguing with? Is it the same imaginary person who thinks Hillary is 'squeaky clean'?

This priest was 92 years old. It takes a very sick mind to harm an innocent man of that age. But you wouldn't need much in the way of firepower to do him in.

Are you on drugs?

What republican am I cheering for you numpty?

Go on, show me this imaginary republican I am cheering on?

You are a liar!

Do I have this right?

Stew, the conservative, is claiming that he has never cheered on a Republican?  ;D ;D ;D ;D

This post has made my day.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Over the Bar on July 26, 2016, 04:17:59 PM
How come none of the White mass killers are referred to as "Christian" while all black/middle eastern killers are call "Muslim" even when they are not practising any religion?? 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: Over the Bar on July 26, 2016, 04:17:59 PM
How come none of the White mass killers are referred to as "Christian" while all black/middle eastern killers are call "Muslim" even when they are not practising any religion?? 

Wheres your evidence in this case??

Apparently 1 of these tramps tried to enter Syria last year and French police had been following him for a year and a half. Its becoming quite apparent the French secret service are completely useless!!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2016, 04:24:49 PM
Quote from: stew on October 15, 2015, 05:09:24 PM
Clinton is electable??? 60% in some polls show they don't believe she is trustworthy, she is a political animal who will get a pass on Benghazi and the email scandals because she was married to Bubba, you know, the former President.

The American military is under attack from this government, that is not good, they need a strong leader not a Clinton or Saunders, imagine what would happen the policing bodies around the country, things will get worse, 2 million  more black people are homeless  than there were 7 years ago, Black Lives Matter.

The liberals cannot find a decent candidate and I would take any of the GOP candidates over Clinton, probably even Trump but I would have to think long and hard on that one.

I want to see Biden run and gut Clinton, he will get the presidents blessing which given his popularity would probably hurt him but at least he would be better than Clinton.

You hate the left or anything remotely left and call them all 'libtards' - whatever that is. You post uncorroborated crap about Clinton over and over again. You have posted that the only people that you really hate are Thatcher, Pelosi and Clinton (see a pattern?), oh and...eh a token mention of Cheney.

You have attacked Colin Powell on here for supporting a black man and not John McCain. God forbid that Powell might be qualified to choose who he might support himself. You called THAT 'playing the race card', despite your obvious hatred, for example, for Michelle Obama, although you can't accuse her of anything, other than being married to the President. The bitch!

Powell's non-support for McCain obviously cuts deep with you. Are you a fan? I wouldn't be, given his role in trying to start wars involving Russia.

You would take any GOP candidate over Clinton, but of course, you are not a Republican.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: AZOffaly on July 26, 2016, 04:26:17 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: Over the Bar on July 26, 2016, 04:17:59 PM
How come none of the White mass killers are referred to as "Christian" while all black/middle eastern killers are call "Muslim" even when they are not practising any religion?? 

Wheres your evidence in this case??

Apparently 1 of these tramps tried to enter Syria last year and French police had been following him for a year and a half. Its becoming quite apparent the French secret service are completely useless!!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Sellers_pinkpanther7.jpg)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 04:27:49 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 26, 2016, 04:26:17 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 04:24:01 PM
Quote from: Over the Bar on July 26, 2016, 04:17:59 PM
How come none of the White mass killers are referred to as "Christian" while all black/middle eastern killers are call "Muslim" even when they are not practising any religion?? 

Wheres your evidence in this case??

Apparently 1 of these tramps tried to enter Syria last year and French police had been following him for a year and a half. Its becoming quite apparent the French secret service are completely useless!!

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Sellers_pinkpanther7.jpg)

Now now AZ. This attack today has annoyed me more than others for some reason.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: AZOffaly on July 26, 2016, 04:42:23 PM
No disrespect intended, as you say you'd have to wonder what they are doing when they are shadowing these suspects. If you didn't laugh you'd cry.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 26, 2016, 04:42:23 PM
No disrespect intended, as you say you'd have to wonder what they are doing when they are shadowing these suspects. If you didn't laugh you'd cry.

Exactly! One of these lads had an electronic tag on and was only allowed out of the house between 8.30am - 12.30pm
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2016, 04:58:37 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 26, 2016, 04:42:23 PM
No disrespect intended, as you say you'd have to wonder what they are doing when they are shadowing these suspects. If you didn't laugh you'd cry.

Exactly! One of these lads had an electronic tag on and was only allowed out of the house between 8.30am - 12.30pm

Here is the problem. Do you introduce internment (or equivalent) to detain them, and risk creating an even greater number of very disgruntled youths?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Nigel White on July 26, 2016, 05:01:21 PM
Quote from: Over the Bar on July 26, 2016, 04:17:59 PM
How come none of the White mass killers are referred to as "Christian" while all black/middle eastern killers are call "Muslim" even when they are not practising any religion??
I assume it's because no white mass killers, to my knowledge, have murdered in the name of religion whiles most, to my knowledge, black/middle eastern killers who have been referred to as Muslim, have murdered in the name of religion
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Boycey on July 26, 2016, 05:02:10 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2016, 04:58:37 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 04:56:56 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 26, 2016, 04:42:23 PM
No disrespect intended, as you say you'd have to wonder what they are doing when they are shadowing these suspects. If you didn't laugh you'd cry.

Exactly! One of these lads had an electronic tag on and was only allowed out of the house between 8.30am - 12.30pm

Here is the problem. Do you introduce internment (or equivalent) to detain them, and risk creating an even greater number of very disgruntled youths?

I was going to post similar. How many of these people of interest is there? Is it possible to lock them all up? Frances prisons are already teeming with young muslim men. The more they see themselves being marginalized the more scope for radicalization??
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 05:02:58 PM
France obviously has massive social issues which is driving these lads to extremism.

I don't know what the solution is. These mass housing projects in every town and city, you cant just educate and turn these people away from extremism overnight. Like anything it'll cost huge investment, though probably a paltry sum compared to the French bombing campaign in the middle east.

My question is why has the UK not been hit yet? Better security in place? Less social issues compared to inner city French/Belgian & German cities?? Or is it a matter of time.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2016, 05:06:08 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 05:02:58 PM
France obviously has massive social issues which is driving these lads to extremism.

I don't know what the solution is. These mass housing projects in every town and city, you cant just educate and turn these people away from extremism overnight. Like anything it'll cost huge investment, though probably a paltry sum compared to the French bombing campaign in the middle east.

My question is why has the UK not been hit yet? Better security in place? Less social issues compared to inner city French/Belgian & German cities?? Or is it a matter of time.

The water bombers at Heathrow and the 7/7 bombing would fit into this category. But I agree and am wondering why the UK isn't getting it this time round.

They have the same if not greater problem as France, with poor immigrants coming from a country once exploited by the European power.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 05:09:02 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2016, 05:06:08 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on July 26, 2016, 05:02:58 PM
France obviously has massive social issues which is driving these lads to extremism.

I don't know what the solution is. These mass housing projects in every town and city, you cant just educate and turn these people away from extremism overnight. Like anything it'll cost huge investment, though probably a paltry sum compared to the French bombing campaign in the middle east.

My question is why has the UK not been hit yet? Better security in place? Less social issues compared to inner city French/Belgian & German cities?? Or is it a matter of time.

The water bombers at Heathrow and the 7/7 bombing would fit into this category. But I agree and am wondering why the UK isn't getting it this time round.

They have the same if not greater problem as France, with poor immigrants coming from a country once exploited by the European power.

Could be wrong but my experience of London is that it wouldn't be as segregated as France. Then again a UK 'home grown' bomber is more likely to be from towns such as Luton, Burnley, Bradford or Leeds where more social issues exist.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 06:10:37 PM
Just to play the devils advocate and to see what way people think about this, say for instance that in 20 years time a significant portion of Dublin and other urban areas were to "islamise", that is to say that native Irish become a very small minority in these areas and Arabic culture became dominant. If you had a chance to prevent that from happening perhaps through immigration control or some other means (non-violent obviously, if that needs stating), would you do so? Or would you just accept it like the flow of the tide?

To go further, say if you knew Ireland would become a 50% Islamic country in 100 years, what would you do?

I know this is a somewhat controversial subject and a sensitive matter. I think people should think hard before they answer.

I think it's important to discuss because these are the questions a lot of European people are starting to ask themselves now, whether that be based on fact or fear, though I get the sense our dear leaders would prefer we didn't.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2016, 06:15:23 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 06:10:37 PM
Just to play the devils advocate and to see what way people think about this, say for instance that in 20 years time a significant portion of Dublin and other urban areas were to "islamise", that is to say that native Irish become a very small minority in these areas and Arabic culture became dominant. If you had a chance to prevent that from happening perhaps through immigration control or some other means (non-violent obviously, if that needs stating), would you do so? Or would you just accept it like the flow of the tide?

To go further, say if you knew Ireland would become a 50% Islamic country in 100 years, what would you do?

I know this is a somewhat controversial subject and a sensitive matter. I think people should think hard before they answer.

I think it's important to discuss because these are the questions a lot of European people are starting to ask themselves now, whether that be based on fact or fear, though I get the sense our dear leaders would prefer we didn't.

This is a fair question and it should be mentioned that Ireland doesn't have a colonial past.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: macdanger2 on July 26, 2016, 06:16:15 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 06:10:37 PM
Just to play the devils advocate and to see what way people think about this, say for instance that in 20 years time a significant portion of Belfast and other urban areas were to "catholicise", that is to say that native Northern Irish become a very small minority in these areas and Papist culture became dominant. If you had a chance to prevent that from happening perhaps through immigration control or some other means (non-violent obviously, if that needs stating), would you do so? Or would you just accept it like the flow of the tide?

To go further, say if you knew Northern Ireland would become a 50% Catholic country in 100 years, what would you do?

I know this is a somewhat controversial subject and a sensitive matter. I think people should think hard before they answer.

I think it's important to discuss because these are the questions a lot of European people are starting to ask themselves now, whether that be based on fact or fear, though I get the sense our dear leaders would prefer we didn't.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 26, 2016, 06:30:49 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 06:10:37 PM
Just to play the devils advocate and to see what way people think about this, say for instance that in 20 years time a significant portion of Dublin and other urban areas were to "islamise", that is to say that native Irish become a very small minority in these areas and Arabic culture became dominant. If you had a chance to prevent that from happening perhaps through immigration control or some other means (non-violent obviously, if that needs stating), would you do so? Or would you just accept it like the flow of the tide?

To go further, say if you knew Ireland would become a 50% Islamic country in 100 years, what would you do?

I know this is a somewhat controversial subject and a sensitive matter. I think people should think hard before they answer.

I think it's important to discuss because these are the questions a lot of European people are starting to ask themselves now, whether that be based on fact or fear, though I get the sense our dear leaders would prefer we didn't.

Are you talking about turning into an Islamic theocracy, complete with honour killings, repression of women, sharia law and the rest?

Or Muslims practicing their religion but living as full participants in a free western society?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 06:32:33 PM
Indeed, macdanger, so where do you stand on the issue.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 06:35:09 PM
J70, in this instance lets just say that's a known unknown.

If history is anything to go by it will be a little bit of A and a little bit of B.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 26, 2016, 06:37:23 PM
The question must also consider our obligations as members of the EU.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 06:57:42 PM
Why would any country become 50% Muslim? Muslims are the same as everyone else. They want jobs and education for their kids. Boulot metro dodo. Work metro sleep. Second generation start integrating and have fewer kids. Muslims are a convenient bogeyman. The real challenge is to drain the jihadi swamps.

Low Euro birth rates are a separate issue.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: foxcommander on July 26, 2016, 07:06:17 PM
Quote from: muppet on July 26, 2016, 06:37:23 PM
The question must also consider our obligations as members of the EU.

You mean unlimited and unvetted immigration as per Ms Merkels request

Some of you may believe in a mythical multicultural nirvana but while you're sitting smugly thinking you're Bob Geldof the reality is that you are screwing up the country for future generations and inheriting problems that weren't ours to begin with.

The time to stop the rot is now. Ireland has already had the first few waves of shysters and conmen milking the system. Ultimately it will end up in ghettos like Luton and Bradford if not tackled.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: foxcommander on July 26, 2016, 07:09:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 06:57:42 PM
Low Euro birth rates are a separate issue.

Why is that? Maybe it's because honest people are too busy working and trying to keep their heads above water to raise a family.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for some sections to reproduce. And they don't ever seem to work. How about stopping free housing & benefits and making ireland such a lucrative place to come to.


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 07:16:27 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 26, 2016, 07:09:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 06:57:42 PM
Low Euro birth rates are a separate issue.

Why is that? Maybe it's because honest people are too busy working and trying to keep their heads above water to raise a family.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for some sections to reproduce. And they don't ever seem to work. How about stopping free housing & benefits and making ireland such a lucrative place to come to.
It is related to macroeconomics. All the current problems are
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 07:52:23 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 26, 2016, 07:09:24 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 06:57:42 PM
Low Euro birth rates are a separate issue.

Why is that? Maybe it's because honest people are too busy working and trying to keep their heads above water to raise a family.

Doesn't seem to be a problem for some sections to reproduce. And they don't ever seem to work. How about stopping free housing & benefits and making ireland such a lucrative place to come to.
It is related to macroeconomics. All the current problems are
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 26, 2016, 07:59:24 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 06:35:09 PM
J70, in this instance lets just say that's a known unknown.

If history is anything to go by it will be a little bit of A and a little bit of B.

It is a very difficult question.

You have to weigh human rights/refugee concerns right now with potential implications decades from now.

And one has to look at examples of where it has and has not worked.

Why have Muslim immigrants mostly assimilated very well in the US, but not in parts of Paris or Brussels or Yorkshire?

I live in Queens, one of the most diverse counties on the planet. Plenty of Muslims. Plenty of mosques. I doubt if there are any more problems than with other groups.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: macdanger2 on July 26, 2016, 08:06:41 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 06:32:33 PM
Indeed, macdanger, so where do you stand on the issue.

Where do I stand on the established group in society having an unfounded fear of "them"? On the need to keep "them" out for fear that "our" way of life will be threatened? Suffice to say, I feel I would have more common ground with "them" that I would with fearmongers like Paisley and anyone of that opinion
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 09:52:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 06:57:42 PM
Why would any country become 50% Muslim? Muslims are the same as everyone else. They want jobs and education for their kids. Boulot metro dodo. Work metro sleep. Second generation start integrating and have fewer kids. Muslims are a convenient bogeyman. The real challenge is to drain the jihadi swamps.

Low Euro birth rates are a separate issue.

I was being somewhat provocative by suggesting Muslims since it is such a hot button issue at the moment. You could insert any other group into the question really. For instance Germany is embarking on a very risky experiment with its future by taking on so many refugees, whether you believe it was the morally right thing to do or not. If the figures I've read on demographic change in Germany is correct, the idea that so many people can be transformed by the state institutions into something even similar to what we know Germans traditionally to be; when same said Germans would be a dwindling cultural influence over those institutions, it is more likely that we will see a shift towards a more Turkic/Arabic society than a German one. What that then means for the future of Europe we will just have to see.

Muslims are the same as everyone else if we reduce everyone down to work/rest/play. I think there is a bit more to them than that and there is a bit more to us than that by the same token. The main reason I'm asking is to see people's attitudes to demographic change and how they see their place in the world. I think this will be the defining question in the west in the early 21st century. Do we go down the globalisation rabbit hole or does nationalism make a comeback.

It is a fascinating time to see this dynamic at play which is remoulding the old political left/right paradigm, even if it is a bit scary at times. I think boils down to this, does any nation on this earth have the right to lay claim to a territory that perhaps their ancestors held for generations of not centuries, have they that right to hold on to that land for their own prosperity and that of their descendants.Or does economics override that.

Sorry if that's a bit rambling, I don't like writing long posts on an iPhone.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: foxcommander on July 26, 2016, 10:17:49 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 09:52:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 06:57:42 PM
Why would any country become 50% Muslim? Muslims are the same as everyone else. They want jobs and education for their kids. Boulot metro dodo. Work metro sleep. Second generation start integrating and have fewer kids. Muslims are a convenient bogeyman. The real challenge is to drain the jihadi swamps.

Low Euro birth rates are a separate issue.

I was being somewhat provocative by suggesting Muslims since it is such a hot button issue at the moment. You could insert any other group into the question really. For instance Germany is embarking on a very risky experiment with its future by taking on so many refugees, whether you believe it was the morally right thing to do or not. If the figures I've read on demographic change in Germany is correct, the idea that so many people can be transformed by the state institutions into something even similar to what we know Germans traditionally to be; when same said Germans would be a dwindling cultural influence over those institutions, it is more likely that we will see a shift towards a more Turkic/Arabic society than a German one. What that then means for the future of Europe we will just have to see.

Muslims are the same as everyone else if we reduce everyone down to work/rest/play. I think there is a bit more to them than that and there is a bit more to us than that by the same token. The main reason I'm asking is to see people's attitudes to demographic change and how they see their place in the world. I think this will be the defining question in the west in the early 21st century. Do we go down the globalisation rabbit hole or does nationalism make a comeback.

It is a fascinating time to see this dynamic at play which is remoulding the old political left/right paradigm, even if it is a bit scary at times. I think boils down to this, does any nation on this earth have the right to lay claim to a territory that perhaps their ancestors held for generations of not centuries, have they that right to hold on to that land for their own prosperity and that of their descendants.Or does economics override that.

Sorry if that's a bit rambling, I don't like writing long posts on an iPhone.

See how the native Red Squirrels got on when Grey squirrels were introduced into Ireland as a guideline.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Tony Baloney on July 26, 2016, 10:44:44 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 09:52:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 06:57:42 PM
Why would any country become 50% Muslim? Muslims are the same as everyone else. They want jobs and education for their kids. Boulot metro dodo. Work metro sleep. Second generation start integrating and have fewer kids. Muslims are a convenient bogeyman. The real challenge is to drain the jihadi swamps.

Low Euro birth rates are a separate issue.

I was being somewhat provocative by suggesting Muslims since it is such a hot button issue at the moment. You could insert any other group into the question really. For instance Germany is embarking on a very risky experiment with its future by taking on so many refugees, whether you believe it was the morally right thing to do or not. If the figures I've read on demographic change in Germany is correct, the idea that so many people can be transformed by the state institutions into something even similar to what we know Germans traditionally to be; when same said Germans would be a dwindling cultural influence over those institutions, it is more likely that we will see a shift towards a more Turkic/Arabic society than a German one. What that then means for the future of Europe we will just have to see.

Muslims are the same as everyone else if we reduce everyone down to work/rest/play. I think there is a bit more to them than that and there is a bit more to us than that by the same token. The main reason I'm asking is to see people's attitudes to demographic change and how they see their place in the world. I think this will be the defining question in the west in the early 21st century. Do we go down the globalisation rabbit hole or does nationalism make a comeback.

It is a fascinating time to see this dynamic at play which is remoulding the old political left/right paradigm, even if it is a bit scary at times. I think boils down to this, does any nation on this earth have the right to lay claim to a territory that perhaps their ancestors held for generations of not centuries, have they that right to hold on to that land for their own prosperity and that of their descendants.Or does economics override that.

Sorry if that's a bit rambling, I don't like writing long posts on an iPhone.
So was this a short post or a long one?!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 10:46:51 PM
Long enough.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on July 26, 2016, 11:26:21 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 26, 2016, 10:17:49 PM
See how the native Red Squirrels got on when Grey squirrels were introduced into Ireland as a guideline.

Very insightful!! Yes let's compare religions to different species of squirrel. . . I thought you had better than that foxy!!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 12:16:09 AM
A more interesting, and human, example actually was in Fiji. To put it simply, the native Polynesians were being displaced by the descendents of indentured Indians. It got to the point where the natives were demographically and therefore democratically out numbered. However one exception was in the military who then took control of the government and still do to this day. Were they wrong to do so? Should they have accepted their fate?

By the way that is a much condensed version of recent Fijian history, but you see the case in point.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 27, 2016, 12:38:48 AM
Quote from: screenexile on July 26, 2016, 11:26:21 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 26, 2016, 10:17:49 PM
See how the native Red Squirrels got on when Grey squirrels were introduced into Ireland as a guideline.

Very insightful!! Yes let's compare religions to different species of squirrel. . . I thought you had better than that foxy!!

You did? ;D
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 27, 2016, 12:40:57 AM
Quote from: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 12:16:09 AM
A more interesting, and human, example actually was in Fiji. To put it simply, the native Polynesians were being displaced by the descendents of indentured Indians. It got to the point where the natives were demographically and therefore democratically out numbered. However one exception was in the military who then took control of the government and still do to this day. Were they wrong to do so? Should they have accepted their fate?

By the way that is a much condensed version of recent Fijian history, but you see the case in point.

Depends what that fate was.

Is and was Fiji a secular, democratic state?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 01:05:07 AM
The fate would have meant that the native Fijians (correction: who are not Polynesian, but Melanesians) would have become an ethnic minority in their ancestral islands, ergo would have lost political control over their own destiny as a distinct people. By the way, all of which was a result of outside economic interests.

As far as I know Fiji is and was a secular nation.

It is no longer democratic. However it is a very peaceful place, despite military rule I hardly saw a soldier while I was there. The people there are without doubt the most friendly people I have ever met in my travels.

One family I spoke to said they don't miss democracy. It does not matter as we look out for each other because "we are all brothers". They were a military family by the way, make of that what you will. I'm sure if brotherhood extended to the Indians though. He never said.

The question becomes a matter of survival over principle. Do you stick to open liberal democracy even if it means you (you as a group, not just as an individual) lose out in the long run to other interests by sheer force of numbers (often propelled by outside economic/short term interests)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 27, 2016, 01:46:17 AM
Well, the US is undergoing a shift. Pew Research published data that predicts that whites will be a minority within 50 years. That is down from comprising more than 80% of the population fifty years ago. I don't see anyone outside of far right groups predicting anything negative or sinister about that development. But, immigrant groups generally assimilate in the US. Some traditionally achieve greater, faster success than other groups, but there is no real tradition of people not embracing American culture and democracy.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/03/31/10-demographic-trends-that-are-shaping-the-u-s-and-the-world/ (http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/03/31/10-demographic-trends-that-are-shaping-the-u-s-and-the-world/)

I know very little about Fiji, but a quick gander at wikipedia states that there is a lot of debate over the term "Fijian" and to whom it should apply, as apparently there are certain rights that are conferred based on that. Throw in the 2000 coup which overthrew the multi-racial government and an earlier consitutional guarantee of a native majority in government suggests that they've not handled the issue of a large ethnic minority presence too well at times.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 04:18:14 AM
Quote from: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 12:16:09 AM
A more interesting, and human, example actually was in Fiji. To put it simply, the native Polynesians were being displaced by the descendents of indentured Indians. It got to the point where the natives were demographically and therefore democratically out numbered. However one exception was in the military who then took control of the government and still do to this day. Were they wrong to do so? Should they have accepted their fate?

By the way that is a much condensed version of recent Fijian history, but you see the case in point.
In Malaysia at independence the Chinese minority ran the economy . They didn't like the lie of the land so broke away and declared independence for Singapore 

White power in the US has a very violent history. I think the rise of the indigenous American continental Latino population is really ironic.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 06:58:29 AM
Quote from: thejuice on July 26, 2016, 09:52:27 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 26, 2016, 06:57:42 PM
Why would any country become 50% Muslim? Muslims are the same as everyone else. They want jobs and education for their kids. Boulot metro dodo. Work metro sleep. Second generation start integrating and have fewer kids. Muslims are a convenient bogeyman. The real challenge is to drain the jihadi swamps.

Low Euro birth rates are a separate issue.

I was being somewhat provocative by suggesting Muslims since it is such a hot button issue at the moment. You could insert any other group into the question really. For instance Germany is embarking on a very risky experiment with its future by taking on so many refugees, whether you believe it was the morally right thing to do or not. If the figures I've read on demographic change in Germany is correct, the idea that so many people can be transformed by the state institutions into something even similar to what we know Germans traditionally to be; when same said Germans would be a dwindling cultural influence over those institutions, it is more likely that we will see a shift towards a more Turkic/Arabic society than a German one. What that then means for the future of Europe we will just have to see.

Muslims are the same as everyone else if we reduce everyone down to work/rest/play. I think there is a bit more to them than that and there is a bit more to us than that by the same token. The main reason I'm asking is to see people's attitudes to demographic change and how they see their place in the world. I think this will be the defining question in the west in the early 21st century. Do we go down the globalisation rabbit hole or does nationalism make a comeback.

It is a fascinating time to see this dynamic at play which is remoulding the old political left/right paradigm, even if it is a bit scary at times. I think boils down to this, does any nation on this earth have the right to lay claim to a territory that perhaps their ancestors held for generations of not centuries, have they that right to hold on to that land for their own prosperity and that of their descendants.Or does economics override that.

Sorry if that's a bit rambling, I don't like writing long posts on an iPhone.

It is a paradox.....our economic system is based on continued growth of population whether that be birth rate or immigration, and as counties become wealthier the birth rate drops so immigration is required for the economy to grow.

Merkel recognises that Germany is facing a massive labour shortage so the refugee crisis happened it was her problem solved that was until Hungary went beserk and the social problems surfaced.

As far as assimilation goes i think I read somewhere that something like 75% of the population of France is descended from immigrants that came to France in the 20th century,Most of those you would have to say are assimilated.  When contrasting religion is brought into the equation tho it makes assimilation more difficult but not impossible.

Tho your original question is an interesting one. Perhaps we should look at why soverign nation states come to the fore as the predominant method of governance in the first place? You would have to say that in Europe at least it was to give a homeland for ethnicitys. And at the end of the day if you want to continue with that system then giving over a large section of the population over to a non ethnic group within a generation which would not be enough time to assimilate, would be contrary to the ideals of the nation state. And may even cause it to collapse as the original reason for its existence was lost. If on the other hand you want to use another type of governance say a federal europe or something that would be worth discussing but the question is are people ready for that? It doesnt look like Europe is ready to give up on Nationalism for a long while yet tho.

Moral of the story is... if you want the system to continue only one solution......keep breeding
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 08:17:16 AM
Immigration is needed when the rich control most of the wealth and or when there aren't enough workers  .
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 09:48:59 AM
By the way sorry to drag this thread off topic by the way though I'm sure events as they happen will bring it back on course.

I wrote the following in response to J70:

Yes, though the far right seem to have grown in the USA lately as a result of those trends, this is before Donald Trump or Trayvon Martin happened. How big I don't know but as I said before this issue will likely get bigger as these trends continue. It might well just be whites adjusting to life as a minority, essentially becoming their own lobby group just as others do. With that in mind Seafood brought up Singapore, secessionist movements could even spring up. But you know the USA better than myself and the Internet can make things seem bigger than they actually are.

As for who can claim Fijian identity gets to the nub of this debate, it's pretty clear on the ground who is from the islands and who is from India, by physical appearance, by religion, lifestyle and where they live. The groups from the other Pacific islands is harder for the likes of myself to determine.

It's important to remember that Fiji is not like the USA, it's a small cluster of islands. It has a population of 800,000. If the native Fijians were to continue to lose out they could have effectively disappeared. The question is, and one I don't think you answered, had they the right to make such a stand?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 08:17:16 AM
Immigration is needed when the rich control most of the wealth and or when there aren't enough workers  .

Are you say that unemployment levels would need to be zero? because if we have high unemployment a need for immigration is pointless
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 27, 2016, 11:42:34 AM
Quote from: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 09:48:59 AM
By the way sorry to drag this thread off topic by the way though I'm sure events as they happen will bring it back on course.

I wrote the following in response to J70:

Yes, though the far right seem to have grown in the USA lately as a result of those trends, this is before Donald Trump or Trayvon Martin happened. How big I don't know but as I said before this issue will likely get bigger as these trends continue. It might well just be whites adjusting to life as a minority, essentially becoming their own lobby group just as others do. With that in mind Seafood brought up Singapore, secessionist movements could even spring up. But you know the USA better than myself and the Internet can make things seem bigger than they actually are.

As for who can claim Fijian identity gets to the nub of this debate, it's pretty clear on the ground who is from the islands and who is from India, by physical appearance, by religion, lifestyle and where they live. The groups from the other Pacific islands is harder for the likes of myself to determine.

It's important to remember that Fiji is not like the USA, it's a small cluster of islands. It has a population of 800,000. If the native Fijians were to continue to lose out they could have effectively disappeared. The question is, and one I don't think you answered, had they the right to make such a stand?

Disappeared?

How can you legislate that? Kick all other ethnics out? Forbid inter-racial/ethnic marriage? If native Fijians disappear, it will be down to a multitude of individual choices. I don't see any moral defense of policies that would seek to preserve a racial or ethnic group by discriminating against others or limiting individual freedom. Societies evolve. Always have.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 08:17:16 AM
Immigration is needed when the rich control most of the wealth and or when there aren't enough workers  .

Are you say that unemployment levels would need to be zero? because if we have high unemployment a need for immigration is pointless
UK growth in the last 5 years is mostly due to immigration .
If the money was spread out there would be less need for immigration
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 08:17:16 AM
Immigration is needed when the rich control most of the wealth and or when there aren't enough workers  .

Are you say that unemployment levels would need to be zero? because if we have high unemployment a need for immigration is pointless
UK growth in the last 5 years is mostly due to immigration .
If the money was spread out there would be less need for immigration

So take the money off the high earners (which they do, tax) and spread it around to people who are on minimum wage and on the dole? like equal pay for everyone? Now, where did they try that before?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 02:59:34 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 27, 2016, 11:42:34 AM
How can you legislate that? Kick all other ethnics out? Forbid inter-racial/ethnic marriage? If native Fijians disappear, it will be down to a multitude of individual choices. I don't see any moral defense of policies that would seek to preserve a racial or ethnic group by discriminating against others or limiting individual freedom. Societies evolve. Always have.

But J70, individual choices made in what context? The Fijians did not choose the importation of indentured slaves. They had a way of life that did not produce and support as many children as the the Indians. Should they have chose to have more children just to keep a stake in the game? Is that what you call societal evolution?

Because this "process of evolution" is not some natural process when it comes to demographic change. It is more often than not the result of policy and short term economic decisions. But once they are done, that's it, no going back.
Its evolution baby!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 27, 2016, 03:26:08 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 02:59:34 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 27, 2016, 11:42:34 AM
How can you legislate that? Kick all other ethnics out? Forbid inter-racial/ethnic marriage? If native Fijians disappear, it will be down to a multitude of individual choices. I don't see any moral defense of policies that would seek to preserve a racial or ethnic group by discriminating against others or limiting individual freedom. Societies evolve. Always have.

But J70, individual choices made in what context? The Fijians did not choose the importation of indentured slaves. They had a way of life that did not produce and support as many children as the the Indians. Should they have chose to have more children just to keep a stake in the game? Is that what you call societal evolution?

Because this "process of evolution" is not some natural process when it comes to demographic change. It is more often than not the result of policy and short term economic decisions. But once they are done, that's it, no going back.
Its evolution baby!

What I mean is they are where they are and can't undo the past and short of either discriminating against non-natives or prohibiting miscegenation or implementing pogroms or ethnic cleansing, then it's down to the accumulation of choices of individuals how Fijian society will evolve. If one falls in love with some cute Indian woman, are they really going to give a shite that they might be diluting the gene pool and contributing to the extinction of ethnic Fiji through death by a thousand cuts?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 04:26:51 PM
This is an interesting dilemma.

On the one hand should a culture and people be allowed  to overtaken by another culture simply because the other group has developed a more thorough breeding culture

IS it just tough shit for those people and their culture?

J70 I think you are saying that the rights of he individual usurp the rights of the people here is that right? But is that ok considering the individuals where given an anthropological stepping stone over other individuals? And if so why?
Also if that is the case to be fair you would have to apply that to the tribes in the jungles as well...?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 05:16:12 PM
Going back to my original question then, if you could pre-emptively foresee such a thing occurring do you not have a moral position to take measures to prevent it i.e. Reduce or stop immigration?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 05:22:04 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 04:26:51 PM
This is an interesting dilemma.

On the one hand should a culture and people be allowed  to overtaken by another culture simply because the other group has developed a more thorough breeding culture

IS it just tough shit for those people and their culture?

J70 I think you are saying that the rights of he individual usurp the rights of the people here is that right? But is that ok considering the individuals where given an anthropological stepping stone over other individuals? And if so why?
Also if that is the case to be fair you would have to apply that to the tribes in the jungles as well...?

If you immigrated to Syria would you expect to be treated differently?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 05:56:10 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 27, 2016, 05:16:12 PM
Going back to my original question then, if you could pre-emptively foresee such a thing occurring do you not have a moral position to take measures to prevent it i.e. Reduce or stop immigration?


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinicization_of_Tibet

As I said before juice I think I am the only one to answer your question I would say yes... to a degree. The scenario you proposed is extreme and some sort of action should be taken to prevent it developing but it does not mean that immigration should be stopped
And morals aside, its a question of survival and self maintenance, preservation and cohesion and the only way to prevent it happening is to increase the birth rate.  Because no government that presides over a policy  of reduced immigration during a period of low birth rate and resultant falling population would be likely to survive  democratically. Such conditions would see an economic slump and a policy like this would not last long.
A middle ground is key, immigration must be controlled and balanced with economic well being on one side and social cohesion on the other.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 05:59:23 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 05:22:04 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 04:26:51 PM
This is an interesting dilemma.

On the one hand should a culture and people be allowed  to overtaken by another culture simply because the other group has developed a more thorough breeding culture

IS it just tough shit for those people and their culture?

J70 I think you are saying that the rights of he individual usurp the rights of the people here is that right? But is that ok considering the individuals where given an anthropological stepping stone over other individuals? And if so why?
Also if that is the case to be fair you would have to apply that to the tribes in the jungles as well...?

If you immigrated to Syria would you expect to be treated differently?

I dont see where you going with that or how it relates. But Im wondering what my expectations have to do with how I would actually be treated...that is also not really irrelevant.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 06:36:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 08:17:16 AM
Immigration is needed when the rich control most of the wealth and or when there aren't enough workers  .

Are you say that unemployment levels would need to be zero? because if we have high unemployment a need for immigration is pointless
UK growth in the last 5 years is mostly due to immigration .
If the money was spread out there would be less need for immigration

So take the money off the high earners (which they do, tax) and spread it around to people who are on minimum wage and on the dole? like equal pay for everyone? Now, where did they try that before?
In the UK/US  between 1948 and 1960 . Bonds were savaged. Growth was fabulous
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 06:40:29 PM
It is very similar to NI terrorism in the 70s. You have to draw people away from nihilism and that means serious money
http://www.nybooks.com/daily/2016/07/16/nice-attack-isis-durability-of-chaos/

we will not be able to defeat ISIS itself until we find a way to reconnect the neighborhoods, online communities, and other particularly susceptible social and political settings where attacks like what occurred in Nice continue to find inspiration and support.


https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/27/teenager-who-murdered-french-priest-was-like-a-ticking-time-bomb

His mother, a schoolteacher, spoke to a Geneva newspaper in May 2015, shortly after her son had been apprehended attempting to enter Syria for the second time, about her efforts to keep her son out of the grasp of jihadis.

"He said that [Muslims] couldn't exercise their religion peacefully in France," his mother said. "He spoke with words that didn't belong to him. He was under a spell, like a cult."
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 27, 2016, 06:54:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 04:26:51 PM
This is an interesting dilemma.

On the one hand should a culture and people be allowed  to overtaken by another culture simply because the other group has developed a more thorough breeding culture

IS it just tough shit for those people and their culture?

I think so in a case like Fiji. You're looking at people who have been on the island for a hundred years or more with the ethnic Indians. You can't just boot them off or order them to slow down in the offspring department. They're Fijian too, even if they look different and may have different ethnic customs.

Quote from: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 04:26:51 PM
J70 I think you are saying that the rights of he individual usurp the rights of the people here is that right? But is that ok considering the individuals where given an anthropological stepping stone over other individuals? And if so why?

If that is an objection, why stop at anthropological stepping stones?

What about financial? Or looks? Or intelligence?

Has it ever turned out well when a group has been granted priority or privileges over another group?

And if being outbred IS a justification for favouring one group, what happens when the inevitable happens and you are in fact outbred into minority status?! :)

Quote from: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 04:26:51 PM
Also if that is the case to be fair you would have to apply that to the tribes in the jungles as well...?

In what respect?

That we honour their claims to their traditional territories and not take over slash and burn their forest, allowing them to live on in a preserve, so to speak? That we let them continue as they were, and try not to encourage them to join the modern world and hope they'll live on as they are as a curiosity? Or that we say tough shit, we're here now, we're stronger and more organized and you better adapt?

It is all a very interesting dilemma, as you say.

I'm basically spitballing here, to use a horrible Americanism. Don't pretend to have any answers to what are complex questions.

Part of the issue is whether an ethnic group is something with any real moral or legal basis. Although I guess anything can have a legal basis if laws are written to reflect that! Someone mentioned the whole nation state thing in another post.

But does it matter if ethnic Fijians become scarce? What if their customs are preserved by the mixed Indian-Fijian people? Are customs and culture worth anything outside of the people who would practice them? Do they have any intrinsic value? Or are individuals all that matter? Customs and cultures have come and gone many, many times.

I learned Irish at school for 12 years. Can hardly speak a word now, and don't really care to relearn it. I'd be sad if it died out and I'm happy its being preserved, but I don't care enough to personally invest. Maybe its complacency because someone else is taking care of it. But, ultimately, it won't make much difference to my day to day life, either way.

Globalization is changing the world. A lot of cultural distinctness will be lost as everything becomes homogenized.

But is that a bad thing if its the result of all these individual choices? I know someone will come along and talk about big, bad multinationals, but no one is forcing anyone in Africa or Malaysia to buy those Nikes or watch the video of Kim Kardashian's massive, bloated arse! You can't (or at least shouldn't be able to) force people to choose their traditional culture or to marry the same ethnicity.

And, again, I have difficulty with the idea of favouring and bestowing privileges on individuals on the basis of their membership of a group.

Sorry for the rambling and probably incoherence!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: foxcommander on July 27, 2016, 06:57:47 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 27, 2016, 06:54:27 PM
Sorry for the rambling and probably incoherence!

Got that right.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 27, 2016, 06:58:31 PM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 27, 2016, 06:57:47 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 27, 2016, 06:54:27 PM
Sorry for the rambling and probably incoherence!

Got that right.

;)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 07:02:00 PM
Hatred of Muslims is off the scale. It must be very hard to be Muslim in Europe these days .
and Judaism doesn't give a flying f**k.  "Never again" my arse.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 08:45:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 06:36:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 08:17:16 AM
Immigration is needed when the rich control most of the wealth and or when there aren't enough workers  .

Are you say that unemployment levels would need to be zero? because if we have high unemployment a need for immigration is pointless
UK growth in the last 5 years is mostly due to immigration .
If the money was spread out there would be less need for immigration

So take the money off the high earners (which they do, tax) and spread it around to people who are on minimum wage and on the dole? like equal pay for everyone? Now, where did they try that before?
In the UK/US  between 1948 and 1960 . Bonds were savaged. Growth was fabulous

So again, would you want equal pay for everyone and spread the wealth? Explain how that works
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 09:06:05 PM
J70
I dont know what spitballing is but Im must be doing it to. Basically saying shit well if you do this, can you do that as well?

The later regarding the jungle tribes BTW

As far so what if Fijians died out, well then you couple apply the same thought to anything..what if the Indians died out, what if the Irish died out, and to take it even further what if the world wasnt democratic, fair, inclusive, equal (it isnt anyway)....what if...so what...big deal.

I am sort of bemused tho at your insistence on individual choices change the world given your other views. Anyway in this context individual choices make very little difference as human and society will behave in a certain way anyway regardless of the individual choices, for the Fijian and Indian the only individual choice that mattered was that of the East India company or whoever brought them there.

Anyway I think we have another fundamental difference and that is the right of the individual over the right of society, you appear to strongly favour the former where I would say I probably lean more the other way. After all individual rights are a benefit of society, and tradition and culture are the glue that binds it. The rights of the individual only come when those things are in place and its not that I dont think individual rights are important to society, or that we have an inherent right to them...I do but we will loose them if we let the building blocks fall.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 27, 2016, 09:23:17 PM
No, I haven't turned into a crazed libertarian. I just think that in certain areas a greater good is not necessarily clear. We have laws on public safety, environment, business and so on and on which limit the conduct of the individual for what is an obvious and defensible greater good. But I just don't see limits on individuals in favour of preserving or influencing ethnic or cultural purity as self evidently a good thing.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the East India company or whatever it was in a given case that caused such a circumstance to come about. You can't wind back the clock. The Indians and Fijians are there together and have been for a long time. The situation going forward is all that can be affected.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: foxcommander on July 27, 2016, 09:33:36 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 27, 2016, 09:23:17 PM
No, I haven't turned into a crazed libertarian.

You keep telling yourself that ;)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: foxcommander on July 27, 2016, 09:39:47 PM
If the free state of ireland began to experience the same issues as France has right now would that change opinions of immigration?




Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: foxcommander on July 27, 2016, 09:43:35 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 09:06:05 PM
The rights of the individual only come when those things are in place and its not that I dont think individual rights are important to society, or that we have an inherent right to them...I do but we will loose them if we let the building blocks fall.

J70 thinks allowing these building blocks to fall is evolution. Seems quite happy to see the destruction of the social fabric and common decency in order to uphold the rights of scum.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 28, 2016, 02:15:04 AM
Quote from: foxcommander on July 27, 2016, 09:43:35 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 27, 2016, 09:06:05 PM
The rights of the individual only come when those things are in place and its not that I dont think individual rights are important to society, or that we have an inherent right to them...I do but we will loose them if we let the building blocks fall.

J70 thinks allowing these building blocks to fall is evolution. Seems quite happy to see the destruction of the social fabric and common decency in order to uphold the rights of scum.

Yes. That's exactly what I said!  ::) ;D
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on July 28, 2016, 06:00:48 AM
Is your pic thatcher foxy?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on July 28, 2016, 06:16:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 27, 2016, 09:23:17 PM
No, I haven't turned into a crazed libertarian. I just think that in certain areas a greater good is not necessarily clear. We have laws on public safety, environment, business and so on and on which limit the conduct of the individual for what is an obvious and defensible greater good. But I just don't see limits on individuals in favour of preserving or influencing ethnic or cultural purity as self evidently a good thing.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the East India company or whatever it was in a given case that caused such a circumstance to come about. You can't wind back the clock. The Indians and Fijians are there together and have been for a long time. The situation going forward is all that can be affected.

Well I was just trying to say that the individual choices of the Fijians and Indians would make no difference to their outcome, that will be made by more macro factors. And that the main reason for their situation was the indenture system, looked it up it wasnt the East India company my apologies to them, they where a good bunch of ethical chaps that would never be involved in something like that ;). Anyway my point is that the choices of the individuals rarely make changes to the route things are going unless they influence others at a larger level.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2016, 07:30:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 08:45:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 06:36:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 08:17:16 AM
Immigration is needed when the rich control most of the wealth and or when there aren't enough workers  .

Are you say that unemployment levels would need to be zero? because if we have high unemployment a need for immigration is pointless
UK growth in the last 5 years is mostly due to immigration .
If the money was spread out there would be less need for immigration

So take the money off the high earners (which they do, tax) and spread it around to people who are on minimum wage and on the dole? like equal pay for everyone? Now, where did they try that before?
In the UK/US  between 1948 and 1960 . Bonds were savaged. Growth was fabulous

So again, would you want equal pay for everyone and spread the wealth? Explain how that works
Not equal pay. But the wealth has to be spread around because otherwise we get deflation. And that destroys everything.
They broke the rich in the 50s so it  is not rocket science.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 28, 2016, 02:13:31 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 28, 2016, 06:16:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 27, 2016, 09:23:17 PM
No, I haven't turned into a crazed libertarian. I just think that in certain areas a greater good is not necessarily clear. We have laws on public safety, environment, business and so on and on which limit the conduct of the individual for what is an obvious and defensible greater good. But I just don't see limits on individuals in favour of preserving or influencing ethnic or cultural purity as self evidently a good thing.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the East India company or whatever it was in a given case that caused such a circumstance to come about. You can't wind back the clock. The Indians and Fijians are there together and have been for a long time. The situation going forward is all that can be affected.

Well I was just trying to say that the individual choices of the Fijians and Indians would make no difference to their outcome, that will be made by more macro factors. And that the main reason for their situation was the indenture system, looked it up it wasnt the East India company my apologies to them, they where a good bunch of ethical chaps that would never be involved in something like that ;). Anyway my point is that the choices of the individuals rarely make changes to the route things are going unless they influence others at a larger level.

I'm not disagreeing with that. Obviously if you have half a million Fijians and you plonk 250K Indians down in the middle of them, that is going to have large repercussions for society and culture (not saying they would be good or bad – that's beside the point I'm making and all a matter of perspective). My point is that that has already taken place, and short of the government implementing policies from above (e.g. discriminating against Indians, kicking them out, granting very favourable privileges to Fijians, banning immigration of anyone who is not ethnic Fijian, allowing large scale immigration of non-ethnic Fijians etc.) which would fall under your macro factors, then Fijian society will evolve going forward based on the accumulation of individual choices, whether increased interracial marriage, cultural crossover and absorption of outside influences, etc. I'm not saying that these personal choices will necessarily lead to change or stasis. I'm just saying that I'm not comfortable with the implications of a government imposing restrictions from above on the choices of the people already there in order to try to achieve some desired ethnic or racial outcome and that they should allow things to take their natural course based on individual freedom. Basically, if Indians, who have been there as a group for 150 years or whatever, are outbreeding ethnic Fijians and heading towards a demographic majority, so be it.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on July 28, 2016, 02:58:45 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 28, 2016, 02:13:31 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 28, 2016, 06:16:04 AM
Quote from: J70 on July 27, 2016, 09:23:17 PM
No, I haven't turned into a crazed libertarian. I just think that in certain areas a greater good is not necessarily clear. We have laws on public safety, environment, business and so on and on which limit the conduct of the individual for what is an obvious and defensible greater good. But I just don't see limits on individuals in favour of preserving or influencing ethnic or cultural purity as self evidently a good thing.

I'm not sure of the relevance of the East India company or whatever it was in a given case that caused such a circumstance to come about. You can't wind back the clock. The Indians and Fijians are there together and have been for a long time. The situation going forward is all that can be affected.

Well I was just trying to say that the individual choices of the Fijians and Indians would make no difference to their outcome, that will be made by more macro factors. And that the main reason for their situation was the indenture system, looked it up it wasnt the East India company my apologies to them, they where a good bunch of ethical chaps that would never be involved in something like that ;). Anyway my point is that the choices of the individuals rarely make changes to the route things are going unless they influence others at a larger level.

I'm not disagreeing with that. Obviously if you have half a million Fijians and you plonk 250K Indians down in the middle of them, that is going to have large repercussions for society and culture (not saying they would be good or bad – that's beside the point I'm making and all a matter of perspective). My point is that that has already taken place, and short of the government implementing policies from above (e.g. discriminating against Indians, kicking them out, granting very favourable privileges to Fijians, banning immigration of anyone who is not ethnic Fijian, allowing large scale immigration of non-ethnic Fijians etc.) which would fall under your macro factors, then Fijian society will evolve going forward based on the accumulation of individual choices, whether increased interracial marriage, cultural crossover and absorption of outside influences, etc. I'm not saying that these personal choices will necessarily lead to change or stasis. I'm just saying that I'm not comfortable with the implications of a government imposing restrictions from above on the choices of the people already there in order to try to achieve some desired ethnic or racial outcome and that they should allow things to take their natural course based on individual freedom. Basically, if Indians, who have been there as a group for 150 years or whatever, are outbreeding ethnic Fijians and heading towards a demographic majority, so be it.

Yes but at the risk of going around in circles.... if the reason they got there in the first place wasnt "natural" then it could be argued that an attempt to give the Fijian a fairer crack of the whip is justified.

Anyway I worked with a Fijian Indian chap, he told me that the Indians are leaving and that the Fijians are in the majority again, I think he may have mentioned the junta as a reason for this... but then he also said that it was better to have the junta than the democracy.

Anyway I dont think they have ISIS to worry about......
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: J70 on July 28, 2016, 03:34:53 PM
Where do you draw that line though in "righting" the perceived demographic wrongs of the past?

Native Americans...Palestinians... wee six Catholics... :)

Anyway, we'll not solve it here!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 28, 2016, 04:27:13 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 28, 2016, 03:34:53 PM
Where do you draw that line though in "righting" the perceived demographic wrongs of the past?

Native Americans...Palestinians... wee six Catholics... :)

Anyway, we'll not solve it here!
The lamentations of Jeremiah , about the loss  of Jerusalem, from a Judeo Christian point of view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ts79MTUCOaY

Zahrat al Madaen about the loss of Jerusalem from an arab point of view
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrNaPFgyNkE
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on July 28, 2016, 04:39:19 PM
Quote from: J70 on July 28, 2016, 03:34:53 PM
Where do you draw that line though in "righting" the perceived demographic wrongs of the past?

Native Americans...Palestinians... wee six Catholics... :)

Anyway, we'll not solve it here!

...Laggan Presbyterians ;) Yeah thats another point we have to consider...but even if you want to move on from the present situation forward you have to consider that the Fijians do not have an equal culture to Indians so is a level playing field fair. Sports have handicaps based on ability for example.... but where do you stop?

Anyway as you say... we'll hardly solve it and I think we have fully lapped ourselves, reason only takes you so far sometimes.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Milltown Row2 on July 28, 2016, 09:24:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 28, 2016, 07:30:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 08:45:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 06:36:00 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 01:05:05 PM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on July 27, 2016, 10:39:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on July 27, 2016, 08:17:16 AM
Immigration is needed when the rich control most of the wealth and or when there aren't enough workers  .

Are you say that unemployment levels would need to be zero? because if we have high unemployment a need for immigration is pointless
UK growth in the last 5 years is mostly due to immigration .
If the money was spread out there would be less need for immigration

So take the money off the high earners (which they do, tax) and spread it around to people who are on minimum wage and on the dole? like equal pay for everyone? Now, where did they try that before?
In the UK/US  between 1948 and 1960 . Bonds were savaged. Growth was fabulous

So again, would you want equal pay for everyone and spread the wealth? Explain how that works
Not equal pay. But the wealth has to be spread around because otherwise we get deflation. And that destroys everything.
They broke the rich in the 50s so it  is not rocket science.

Look that Utopia will never happen, lovely in Sci-fi films and non fiction books.... Anyone that can afford an account or tax expert will look for loopholes to save them money... But keep fighting the fight
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: thejuice on July 28, 2016, 11:49:05 PM
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-is-making-same-mistakes-as-germany-and-france-on-terror-34918544.html#comments

To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, wouldn't it better to live with the regret of not letting them in rather than the regret of letting them in.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: macdanger2 on July 28, 2016, 11:51:57 PM
Quote from: thejuice on July 28, 2016, 11:49:05 PM
http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/ireland-is-making-same-mistakes-as-germany-and-france-on-terror-34918544.html#comments

To paraphrase Christopher Hitchens, wouldn't it better to live with the regret of not letting them in rather than the regret of letting them in.

I'm sure Carson and Paisley would agree
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 29, 2016, 12:11:54 AM
We have to oblige by our EU commitments on immigration, or we either change the agreements or Irexit.

However, I don't understand why, for example, nearly half of our immigrants came from outside the EU last year. Why are we taking in so many? The US, Australia, Canada and a few other places where we emigrated to, I can understand. But the rest? I am not sure we need to be so open to countries that may be hostile to any western country.

It should be mentioned though, that we still have net emigration. I believe that everyone putting up borders will impede us more than it helps.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: macdanger2 on July 29, 2016, 12:49:33 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 29, 2016, 12:11:54 AM
However, I don't understand why, for example, nearly half of our immigrants came from outside the EU last year. Why are we taking in so many? The US, Australia, Canada and a few other places where we emigrated to, I can understand. But the rest? I am not sure we need to be so open to countries that may be hostile to any western countries

We had ~70k immigrants last year. ~44% of these were non-EU but we had.~21% non-EU emigrants so you're looking at a net total of 13,000 non-EU immigrants. A huge proportion of these are students and high skilled workers.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: muppet on July 29, 2016, 01:19:39 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 29, 2016, 12:49:33 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 29, 2016, 12:11:54 AM
However, I don't understand why, for example, nearly half of our immigrants came from outside the EU last year. Why are we taking in so many? The US, Australia, Canada and a few other places where we emigrated to, I can understand. But the rest? I am not sure we need to be so open to countries that may be hostile to any western countries

We had ~70k immigrants last year. ~44% of these were non-EU but we had.~21% non-EU emigrants so you're looking at a net total of 13,000 non-EU immigrants. A huge proportion of these are students and high skilled workers.

That's all fine, but these immigrants aren't the problem, if indeed there is one in Ireland.

Places like Australia put restrictions on immigrants such as education or qualifications. Would that be so bad here?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on July 29, 2016, 01:58:49 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 29, 2016, 12:11:54 AM
We have to oblige by our EU commitments on immigration, or we either change the agreements or Irexit.

However, I don't understand why, for example, nearly half of our immigrants came from outside the EU last year. Why are we taking in so many? The US, Australia, Canada and a few other places where we emigrated to, I can understand. But the rest? I am not sure we need to be so open to countries that may be hostile to any western country.

It should be mentioned though, that we still have net emigration. I believe that everyone putting up borders will impede us more than it helps.
A lot of nurses and IT workers come from India.
For the jihadi stuff you need a Muslim precariat. Ireland's local precariat does the nihilism thing with drugs.The brutality of the drugs gangs is up.there with what IS do but the victims are typically poor so middle class people don't pay much attention.

NI doesn't need IS cos it has the paramilitary history.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on February 14, 2019, 11:58:37 AM
What do we reckon about the young doll looking to come home to Britain having left to join ISIS??

She was 15 at the time she left and clearly brainwashed but is that enough to allow her to come home??

Are you automatically allowed to return to the home of your birth no matter what?

Strange one. Personally if she is coming back she needs to be prosecuted but I'd be very tempted to say tough shit you made your bed now you have to live with it.

Interesting case!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnnycool on February 14, 2019, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 14, 2019, 11:58:37 AM
What do we reckon about the young doll looking to come home to Britain having left to join ISIS??

She was 15 at the time she left and clearly brainwashed but is that enough to allow her to come home??

Are you automatically allowed to return to the home of your birth no matter what?

Strange one. Personally if she is coming back she needs to be prosecuted but I'd be very tempted to say tough shit you made your bed now you have to live with it.

Interesting case!

Syria are encouraging the Western countries these people come from to come and take their garbage home with them.

She's a UK passport holder so they can't stop her.

What they do with her when she gets there is another issue.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 14, 2019, 12:50:01 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 14, 2019, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 14, 2019, 11:58:37 AM
What do we reckon about the young doll looking to come home to Britain having left to join ISIS??

She was 15 at the time she left and clearly brainwashed but is that enough to allow her to come home??

Are you automatically allowed to return to the home of your birth no matter what?

Strange one. Personally if she is coming back she needs to be prosecuted but I'd be very tempted to say tough shit you made your bed now you have to live with it.

Interesting case!

Syria are encouraging the Western countries these people come from to come and take their garbage home with them.

She's a UK passport holder so they can't stop her.

What they do with her when she gets there is another issue.

It's quite simple. Take the child off her and jail her.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnnycool on February 14, 2019, 12:59:23 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 14, 2019, 12:50:01 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 14, 2019, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 14, 2019, 11:58:37 AM
What do we reckon about the young doll looking to come home to Britain having left to join ISIS??

She was 15 at the time she left and clearly brainwashed but is that enough to allow her to come home??

Are you automatically allowed to return to the home of your birth no matter what?

Strange one. Personally if she is coming back she needs to be prosecuted but I'd be very tempted to say tough shit you made your bed now you have to live with it.

Interesting case!

Syria are encouraging the Western countries these people come from to come and take their garbage home with them.

She's a UK passport holder so they can't stop her.

What they do with her when she gets there is another issue.

It's quite simple. Take the child off her and jail her.

What are you jailing her for?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 14, 2019, 01:07:44 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 14, 2019, 12:50:01 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 14, 2019, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 14, 2019, 11:58:37 AM
What do we reckon about the young doll looking to come home to Britain having left to join ISIS??

She was 15 at the time she left and clearly brainwashed but is that enough to allow her to come home??

Are you automatically allowed to return to the home of your birth no matter what?

Strange one. Personally if she is coming back she needs to be prosecuted but I'd be very tempted to say tough shit you made your bed now you have to live with it.

Interesting case!

Syria are encouraging the Western countries these people come from to come and take their garbage home with them.

She's a UK passport holder so they can't stop her.

What they do with her when she gets there is another issue.

It's quite simple. Take the child off her and jail her.

Interesting view.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Denn Forever on February 14, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
QuoteWhat are you jailing her for?

Membership of terrorist organisation.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Saffrongael on February 14, 2019, 01:15:09 PM
Would she not be in need of some sort of help, considering she was 15 when she went ?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: brokencrossbar1 on February 14, 2019, 01:21:52 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on February 14, 2019, 01:15:09 PM
Would she not be in need of some sort of help, considering she was 15 when she went ?

She is now an adult and consequently what age she was when she left has no bearing on how she is dealt with now, though it may be used in mitigation if any charges are brought against her.  I would imagine she is at risk of being charged with being a member of a proscribed organisation, no differently than any member of any paramilitary group here is dealt with as presumably IS is deemed a proscribed group.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: NAG1 on February 14, 2019, 01:25:35 PM
Quote from: Saffrongael on February 14, 2019, 01:15:09 PM
Would she not be in need of some sort of help, considering she was 15 when she went ?

What sort of help would you recommend SG?

A welcome home basket? Maybe her healthcare provided? Job Seekers allowance, child benefit, maybe a house/ flat?

No remorse shown in the interview whatsoever, knew what she was getting into and has no regrets. She is an adult now and if ever there was a case of cancelling a passport I would say she would be a strong case for it.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnnycool on February 14, 2019, 02:43:06 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on February 14, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
QuoteWhat are you jailing her for?

Membership of terrorist organisation.

Fair enough, but as she was 15 and lord knows what age the brainwashing kicks in.

Certainly from her interview on one of the news channels last night there is little remorse there in what ISIS were about. Her biggest gripe was internal corruption so she's certainly not in a place to be walking the streets until she's assessed by professionals.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dolph1 on February 14, 2019, 02:58:24 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on February 14, 2019, 01:25:35 PM
A welcome home basket? Maybe her healthcare provided? Job Seekers allowance, child benefit, maybe a house/ flat?

Don't forget they'll want a lift back t pick up their benefits. That's what is going to happen.

Like that Halawa fella who claims he's from Dublin- they should be left where they are and stop wasting tax payers money on them.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 14, 2019, 03:01:09 PM
She's joined ISIS. Joined a terrorist organisation. Just because she's coming back to the UK doesn't mean she has rejected their ideology, if you can call it that.
She must not be trusted. She must be isolated and incarcerated.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Main Street on February 14, 2019, 05:32:59 PM
Quote from: johnnycool on February 14, 2019, 02:43:06 PM
Quote from: Denn Forever on February 14, 2019, 01:13:13 PM
QuoteWhat are you jailing her for?

Membership of terrorist organisation.

Fair enough, but as she was 15 and lord knows what age the brainwashing kicks in.

Certainly from her interview on one of the news channels last night there is little remorse there in what ISIS were about. Her biggest gripe was internal corruption so she's certainly not in a place to be walking the streets until she's assessed by professionals.
Is there any evidence that she joined a terrorist organisation?  even evidence in the form of that she actually did some terrorist activity?  I think not.
if subscribing to  a maniacal destructive ideology were a crime in the UK, punishable by imprisonment,  where would they all be incarcerated? 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 14, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
Ah dear, it's all going tits up & the caliphate is becoming less likely every single day. Could I get a free ticket to come back home? Away & feck off. Mind you, she will get legal aid & a good lawyer, who will uphold her human rights...which look like they include the right to blow up kids after concerts.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: whitey on February 14, 2019, 06:15:47 PM
And a grooming gang getting $1M in legal aid to fight deportation

The world has truly gone mad
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Main Street on February 14, 2019, 06:16:44 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 14, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
Ah dear, it's all going tits up & the caliphate is becoming less likely every single day. Could I get a free ticket to come back home? Away & feck off. Mind you, she will get legal aid & a good lawyer, who will uphold her human rights...which look like they include the right to blow up kids after concerts.
Eh what shite is that?

What crime has she committed? where is the evidence to support a charge?


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 14, 2019, 06:17:30 PM
Absolute joke that this is the lead story on 6 o'clock news. The brits are the laughing stock of the world.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 14, 2019, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 14, 2019, 06:16:44 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 14, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
Ah dear, it's all going tits up & the caliphate is becoming less likely every single day. Could I get a free ticket to come back home? Away & feck off. Mind you, she will get legal aid & a good lawyer, who will uphold her human rights...which look like they include the right to blow up kids after concerts.
Eh what shite is that?

What crime has she committed? where is the evidence to support a charge?

Erm...do you take yourself off to join Islamic State for the flower arranging & basket weaving?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Rossfan on February 14, 2019, 06:43:11 PM
When will the Brits, Yanks and French leaders who armed ISIS etc be charged?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Gmac on February 14, 2019, 06:52:55 PM
If she has a passport take it off her and just leave her there that's where she wanted to be , if isis were in control there would she want to leave.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on February 14, 2019, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: Gmac on February 14, 2019, 06:52:55 PM
If she has a passport take it off her and just leave her there that's where she wanted to be , if isis were in control there would she want to leave.

Aye....and the aame goes for themums in the North with Irish passports!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Gmac on February 14, 2019, 07:08:16 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on February 14, 2019, 07:01:42 PM
Quote from: Gmac on February 14, 2019, 06:52:55 PM
If she has a passport take it off her and just leave her there that's where she wanted to be , if isis were in control there would she want to leave.

Aye....and the aame goes for themums in the North with Irish passports!
is that a similar situation?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Main Street on February 14, 2019, 09:03:39 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 14, 2019, 06:32:48 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 14, 2019, 06:16:44 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 14, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
Ah dear, it's all going tits up & the caliphate is becoming less likely every single day. Could I get a free ticket to come back home? Away & feck off. Mind you, she will get legal aid & a good lawyer, who will uphold her human rights...which look like they include the right to blow up kids after concerts.
Eh what shite is that?

What crime has she committed? where is the evidence to support a charge?

Erm...do you take yourself off to join Islamic State for the flower arranging & basket weaving?
That's not evidence. Maybe in some dingbat state populated with idiots that would be regarded as evidence, "she's guilty because I believe her to be guilty".
Anybody, here on this thread full of islamophobes spouting shite, where is the fcking evidence to support a criminal charge?
Or does evidence matter?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 14, 2019, 09:14:28 PM
I suppose that it must have been "fake news" that some in their midst have been killing buckloads of people, across several Western nations (usually soft targets)...or have I been dreaming it? Yet it's repeated again & again, with the governments concerned seemingly unable to prevent it, or to stop it. Function number one of any government - protect your citizens.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Main Street on February 14, 2019, 11:43:07 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on February 14, 2019, 09:14:28 PM
I suppose that it must have been "fake news" that some in their midst have been killing buckloads of people, across several Western nations (usually soft targets)...or have I been dreaming it? Yet it's repeated again & again, with the governments concerned seemingly unable to prevent it, or to stop it. Function number one of any government - protect your citizens.
I don't know where in the universe you inhabit but in general a west european court has some basic standards.  Admitedly a uk court has some  very low standards of practice, but even by the UK's low standards, some evidence has to be offered in order to prove a case against a suspect in a so called terror charge,  even if that person is a paltry 15 years old.  Where/what is the evidence to support a charge against this british citizen?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: David McKeown on February 15, 2019, 01:29:16 AM
Hardly say the courts have low standards. The bar may not be quite as high as yesterday year but the UK courts system remains a standard bearer looked up to around the world.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: whitey on February 15, 2019, 01:52:54 AM
Just because some of us find her actions reheprehensible doesn't mean she's not entitled to due process. Is there a law or statute she has broken apart from being guilty in the court of public opinion
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 15, 2019, 08:19:40 AM
She will obviously be dealt with, according to due process. A bit more "due process", probably, than those people who got their heads cut off received, while their deaths were being videoed into the bargain.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: haranguerer on February 15, 2019, 08:21:39 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 14, 2019, 03:01:09 PM
She's joined ISIS. Joined a terrorist organisation. Just because she's coming back to the UK doesn't mean she has rejected their ideology, if you can call it that.
She must not be trusted. She must be isolated and incarcerated.

;D That'd be a great world you'd live in
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 09:24:43 AM
Is Britain at war with ISIS?
If there is a declarted war and a citizen/subject to the other side I would assume there are some laws regarding treason.

If there is no declared war she is just a girl who headed off to a dangerous part of the world.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Keyser soze on February 15, 2019, 09:29:44 AM
What about all those soldiers from England who headed off to Syria and Iraq and murdered all around them, should they be allowed to return to the UK?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on February 15, 2019, 09:50:46 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on February 15, 2019, 09:29:44 AM
What about all those soldiers from England who headed off to Syria and Iraq and murdered all around them, should they be allowed to return to the UK?

They're private contractors!!  ;) ;)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 15, 2019, 10:02:37 AM
Some crazy opinions here. If that girl came back from Syria and blew herself up at a concert your family was at, what would your opinion be then. Just a girl that went to a dangerous part of the world. f**k me, she didn't go to Dublin for the weekend.
She joined a terrorist organisation, who's aim is to wipe out anyone who isn't an ultra strict Muslim.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:21:48 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 10:02:37 AM
Some crazy opinions here. If that girl came back from Syria and blew herself up at a concert your family was at, what would your opinion be then. Just a girl that went to a dangerous part of the world. f**k me, she didn't go to Dublin for the weekend.
She joined a terrorist organisation, who's aim is to wipe out anyone who isn't an ultra strict Muslim.

Most of the opinions are probably influenced for that exact reason. She's no threat to anyone in Ireland.

UK Home Secretary Sajid Javid isn't even in a tough spot here. She's admitted she doesn't regret going to Syria to join ISIS. Revoke the passport. The alternative is he becomes finished in politics personally and the UK becomes an even bigger laughing stock internationally.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Farrandeelin on February 15, 2019, 10:35:23 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 10:02:37 AM
Some crazy opinions here. If that girl came back from Syria and blew herself up at a concert your family was at, what would your opinion be then. Just a girl that went to a dangerous part of the world. f**k me, she didn't go to Dublin for the weekend.
She joined a terrorist organisation, who's aim is to wipe out anyone who isn't an ultra strict Muslim.

While I agree with your sentiments, as gallsman says, has there been any proof that she did join, or is just brainwashed into their ideology. Does that mean she joined?

However, to say she's unfazed by seeing a few beheaded heads in rubbish bins would not endear her to me.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: nrico2006 on February 15, 2019, 10:48:46 AM
If she can make it back on her own, detain her and charge her accordingly.  I don't see why she should be getting a free ride back to the UK though. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Rossfan on February 15, 2019, 10:54:23 AM
Is fighting in a nasty war in a foreign Country a crime in England/Wales ?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnnycool on February 15, 2019, 11:00:23 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 09:24:43 AM
Is Britain at war with ISIS?
If there is a declarted war and a citizen/subject to the other side I would assume there are some laws regarding treason.

If there is no declared war she is just a girl who headed off to a dangerous part of the world.


When you can't sell enough arms into that region then war in that region is good business. The Saudis were backing ISIS to the balls and the Brits, French and Yanks are shovelling armaments into the Saudis like nobody business.

A few bombings and killings in Manchester, Paris, London is just collateral damage in the big game.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Definition of "joined a terrorist organisation"
No I don't think she filled out a membership form and paid a subscription as some seem to think. But she travelled to Syria willingly to become a jihad bride. That's joining in my book.
She's a dangerous person who should be treated as such. People who follow ISIS are responsible for some of the worst terrorist acts the western world has seen since the IRA.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnnycool on February 15, 2019, 11:09:19 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Definition of "joined a terrorist organisation"
No I don't think she filled out a membership form and paid a subscription as some seem to think. But she travelled to Syria willingly to become a jihad bride. That's joining in my book.
She's a dangerous person who should be treated as such. People who follow ISIS are responsible for some of the worst terrorist acts the western world has seen since the IRA.

I'd say there's some drone operators who could give ISIS a run for their money in that regard.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 11:12:37 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Definition of "joined a terrorist organisation"
No I don't think she filled out a membership form and paid a subscription as some seem to think. But she travelled to Syria willingly to become a jihad bride. That's joining in my book.
She's a dangerous person who should be treated as such. People who follow ISIS are responsible for some of the worst terrorist acts the western world has seen since the IRA.


What would be suitable punishment for supporting the IRA and justifying civilian deaths in Ireland?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 11:18:38 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 11:12:37 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Definition of "joined a terrorist organisation"
No I don't think she filled out a membership form and paid a subscription as some seem to think. But she travelled to Syria willingly to become a jihad bride. That's joining in my book.
She's a dangerous person who should be treated as such. People who follow ISIS are responsible for some of the worst terrorist acts the western world has seen since the IRA.


What would be suitable punishment for supporting the IRA and justifying civilian deaths in Ireland?

I get your point, but not relevant to this particular issue. This is an issue of citizenship and nationality for me after fleeing your country of birth to join Islamic State, for all intents and purposes an 'enemy nation'.

Now Islamic State (in it's current form) is defeated, she wants to come home. If those quotes are indeed accurate, doesn't regret a thing purely because she is 9 months pregnant for some good old fashioned free NHS/Social Welfare goodies presumably. I can't for one second think why the British Govt would extend themselves in any way to help this woman.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 11:24:21 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

I'm not pressing for prosecution. Sure what difference is it to me what she done over there?

The only thing I would be adamant on is that she's left her country of birth to join Islamic State. She's made her bed. I appreciate at 15 years old there is a large mental element to this but the British surely cannot welcome this woman back, indeed it would be sending a very weak message if they did.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.
You're either for due process or you aren't.

If you're against due process, that opens up, to quote somebody somewhere, "an appalling vista".
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Wildweasel74 on February 15, 2019, 12:04:08 PM
 She made a choice.  a wrong choice. She said she still be staying if IS were still in control there. No sympathy at all for her and no signs of remorse. She can stay there!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 15, 2019, 12:09:20 PM
Part of me says 'she made her bed...let her lie in it', then another part says she was exploited and everyone deserves a second chance. Would she pose a threat on her return? Personally I doubt it, and there have been many 'fighters' who have returned and very few got jail and even less are on a watch list. The only ones going to make money out of it are the good old legal aid brigade. God bless British justice 😩
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.
You're either for due process or you aren't.

If you're against due process, that opens up, to quote somebody somewhere, "an appalling vista".

I am not. If she makes her way home. I'd expect her to be arrested, questioned and only released if she was willing to reject ISIS and it terrorism. Which she shows no signs of.

I cannot and will not support terrorism. I find it shocking the amount on this board who do.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 12:14:17 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.

What streets should she walk then?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 12:28:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.
You're either for due process or you aren't.

If you're against due process, that opens up, to quote somebody somewhere, "an appalling vista".

I am not. If she makes her way home. I'd expect her to be arrested, questioned and only released if she was willing to reject ISIS and it terrorism. Which she shows no signs of.

I cannot and will not support terrorism. I find it shocking the amount on this board who do.
Who on this board supports terrorism?

You've just made clear you support making up your own arbitrary laws and the operation of a literal thought police.

That's actual fascism.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dolph1 on February 15, 2019, 12:35:59 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 12:28:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.
You're either for due process or you aren't.

If you're against due process, that opens up, to quote somebody somewhere, "an appalling vista".

I am not. If she makes her way home. I'd expect her to be arrested, questioned and only released if she was willing to reject ISIS and it terrorism. Which she shows no signs of.

I cannot and will not support terrorism. I find it shocking the amount on this board who do.
Who on this board supports terrorism?

You've just made clear you support making up your own arbitrary laws and the operation of a literal thought police.

That's actual fascism.

Eamonnca1 / Sid
Are you at this fascist/racist/islamaphobic craic on this thread too?

Thought police!!! - I thought you were a huge fan (maybe only when you control the police).

Making up laws??? You mean like not arresting illegal aliens in the USA for crimes? Or arresting people entering your country illegally? Or creating fake sanctuary cities? Or allowing illegals to vote with fake IDs. Theres a massive list of laws you ignore when it suits you.

Hypocrite!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 12:28:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.
You're either for due process or you aren't.

If you're against due process, that opens up, to quote somebody somewhere, "an appalling vista".

I am not. If she makes her way home. I'd expect her to be arrested, questioned and only released if she was willing to reject ISIS and it terrorism. Which she shows no signs of.

I cannot and will not support terrorism. I find it shocking the amount on this board who do.
Who on this board supports terrorism?

You've just made clear you support making up your own arbitrary laws and the operation of a literal thought police.

That's actual fascism.

Lol - thought police, fascism.
She's a Jihadi bride. She's openly admitted this.


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

No, but that's not the point, is it?

The problem here is that everything is slightly complicated by teeny weeny things like laws and rights.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 12:28:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.
You're either for due process or you aren't.

If you're against due process, that opens up, to quote somebody somewhere, "an appalling vista".

I am not. If she makes her way home. I'd expect her to be arrested, questioned and only released if she was willing to reject ISIS and it terrorism. Which she shows no signs of.

I cannot and will not support terrorism. I find it shocking the amount on this board who do.
Who on this board supports terrorism?

You've just made clear you support making up your own arbitrary laws and the operation of a literal thought police.

That's actual fascism.

Lol - thought police, fascism.
She's a Jihadi bride. She's openly admitted this.
As far as I'm aware the term "Jihadi bride" doesn't carry any legal weight.

Perhaps you thought Bobby Sands' wife should have been locked up without trial too?

Having thought police is the very definition of fascism. The right to privately hold any sort of crazy opinion is the mark of a free society.

It's not illegal to think anything.

One can think that all Unionists should be exterminated so as to force a united Ireland. That's not illegal.

One can think that all Catholics should be exterminated so as that there is no prospect of a united Ireland ever happening. That's not illegal.

One could think that Donald Trump should obliterate Mexico with nuclear weapons. It still wouldn't be illegal.

Wouldn't you agree?

Now, if a person goes around publicly broadcasting these opinions, then it becomes a different matter because there is such a thing as hate speech laws, and rightly so.

But it's not a crime to think anything.

Publicly broadcasting that you think it should be, as you are doing, amounts to actual fascist extremism - you'd have loved the Gestapo and Stalin's secret police.




Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Keyser soze on February 15, 2019, 01:08:01 PM
There are teenagers sitting in nice revolving chairs in a base in Chester, and other places across the UK, who have killed immeasurably more people than this deluded young lady.

But sure they only pushing a wee button on a joystick when the crosshairs zoom in.

Its not like they are out planting bombs that might kill somebody [thats invaded THEIR country], and it's only ragheads that they are killing and civilians shouldn't have been there anyway. So no big deal.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

No, but that's not the point, is it?

The problem here is that everything is slightly complicated by teeny weeny things like laws and rights.

Im not questioning the laws or rights - simply asking how people would feel about it and if you would be happy?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 11:18:38 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 11:12:37 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Definition of "joined a terrorist organisation"
No I don't think she filled out a membership form and paid a subscription as some seem to think. But she travelled to Syria willingly to become a jihad bride. That's joining in my book.
She's a dangerous person who should be treated as such. People who follow ISIS are responsible for some of the worst terrorist acts the western world has seen since the IRA.


What would be suitable punishment for supporting the IRA and justifying civilian deaths in Ireland?

I get your point, but not relevant to this particular issue. This is an issue of citizenship and nationality for me after fleeing your country of birth to join Islamic State, for all intents and purposes an 'enemy nation'.

Now Islamic State (in it's current form) is defeated, she wants to come home. If those quotes are indeed accurate, doesn't regret a thing purely because she is 9 months pregnant for some good old fashioned free NHS/Social Welfare goodies presumably. I can't for one second think why the British Govt would extend themselves in any way to help this woman.

Should those who supported the IRA be denied the NHS and Welfare? 

If Britain was at war with ISIS then there are treason laws which may be applicable.
Even if not, ISIS is a proscribed organisation and there will be some catch-all aiding and abetting a terrorist organisation she could potentially be prosecuted under.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 15, 2019, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 12:28:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.
You're either for due process or you aren't.

If you're against due process, that opens up, to quote somebody somewhere, "an appalling vista".

I am not. If she makes her way home. I'd expect her to be arrested, questioned and only released if she was willing to reject ISIS and it terrorism. Which she shows no signs of.

I cannot and will not support terrorism. I find it shocking the amount on this board who do.
Who on this board supports terrorism?

You've just made clear you support making up your own arbitrary laws and the operation of a literal thought police.

That's actual fascism.

Lol - thought police, fascism.
She's a Jihadi bride. She's openly admitted this.
As far as I'm aware the term "Jihadi bride" doesn't carry any legal weight.

Perhaps you thought Bobby Sands' wife should have been locked up without trial too?

Having thought police is the very definition of fascism. The right to privately hold any sort of crazy opinion is the mark of a free society.

It's not illegal to think anything.

One can think that all Unionists should be exterminated so as to force a united Ireland. That's not illegal.

One can think that all Catholics should be exterminated so as that there is no prospect of a united Ireland ever happening. That's not illegal.

One could think that Donald Trump should obliterate Mexico with nuclear weapons. It still wouldn't be illegal.

Wouldn't you agree?

Now, if a person goes around publicly broadcasting these opinions, then it becomes a different matter because there is such a thing as hate speech laws, and rightly so.

But it's not a crime to think anything.

Publicly broadcasting that you think it should be, as you are doing, amounts to actual fascist extremism - you'd have loved the Gestapo and Stalin's secret police.

What are you on about?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:13:37 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 01:09:26 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:04:33 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:40:54 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 12:28:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 12:10:55 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:27:30 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 11:23:23 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 11:19:11 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

What crime do you want to prosecute her for here? Being a horrible ****?

A chap in Dublin recently filmed a severed head after a car crash and shared it around the internet for kicks.

That wasn't a very nice thing to do but hardly deserving of stripping somebody of their citizenship or throwing them out of the country.

I don't want her stripped of a passport or citizenship. I just don't want her walking the streets of Britain or Europe for that matter.
You're either for due process or you aren't.

If you're against due process, that opens up, to quote somebody somewhere, "an appalling vista".

I am not. If she makes her way home. I'd expect her to be arrested, questioned and only released if she was willing to reject ISIS and it terrorism. Which she shows no signs of.

I cannot and will not support terrorism. I find it shocking the amount on this board who do.
Who on this board supports terrorism?

You've just made clear you support making up your own arbitrary laws and the operation of a literal thought police.

That's actual fascism.

Lol - thought police, fascism.
She's a Jihadi bride. She's openly admitted this.
As far as I'm aware the term "Jihadi bride" doesn't carry any legal weight.

Perhaps you thought Bobby Sands' wife should have been locked up without trial too?

Having thought police is the very definition of fascism. The right to privately hold any sort of crazy opinion is the mark of a free society.

It's not illegal to think anything.

One can think that all Unionists should be exterminated so as to force a united Ireland. That's not illegal.

One can think that all Catholics should be exterminated so as that there is no prospect of a united Ireland ever happening. That's not illegal.

One could think that Donald Trump should obliterate Mexico with nuclear weapons. It still wouldn't be illegal.

Wouldn't you agree?

Now, if a person goes around publicly broadcasting these opinions, then it becomes a different matter because there is such a thing as hate speech laws, and rightly so.

But it's not a crime to think anything.

Publicly broadcasting that you think it should be, as you are doing, amounts to actual fascist extremism - you'd have loved the Gestapo and Stalin's secret police.

What are you on about?
If you're having to ask that question, you'd probably be best off not posting on the thread anymore.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 15, 2019, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

Of course they would. This is an internet forum where you can claim to support a whole world of different views and opinions without actually having to carry out any significant action in the real world.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

Of course they would. This is an internet forum where you can claim to support a whole world of different views and opinions without actually having to carry out any significant action in the real world.
We're obviously dealing with an intellectual powerhouse here, folks.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

No, but that's not the point, is it?

The problem here is that everything is slightly complicated by teeny weeny things like laws and rights.

Im not questioning the laws or rights - simply asking how people would feel about it and if you would be happy?
Grand so.

We've established her legal rights should be upheld, and the law should be upheld.

And that's basically the end of the thread.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dolph1 on February 15, 2019, 01:24:36 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

Of course they would. This is an internet forum where you can claim to support a whole world of different views and opinions without actually having to carry out any significant action in the real world.
We're obviously dealing with an intellectual powerhouse here, folks.

I hope you are not claiming to be some sort of intellectual Sid / Eamonnca1

You'd be seriously mistaken.  :-*


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 15, 2019, 01:27:47 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:21:04 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 01:15:00 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

Of course they would. This is an internet forum where you can claim to support a whole world of different views and opinions without actually having to carry out any significant action in the real world.
We're obviously dealing with an intellectual powerhouse here, folks.

Nee-Naw, Nee-Naw here comes the thought police.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:46:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

No, but that's not the point, is it?

The problem here is that everything is slightly complicated by teeny weeny things like laws and rights.

Im not questioning the laws or rights - simply asking how people would feel about it and if you would be happy?
Grand so.

We've established her legal rights should be upheld, and the law should be upheld.

And that's basically the end of the thread.

So would you be happy if she was moved in to your street? Simple question Sid
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 01:47:18 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 11:18:38 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 11:12:37 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Definition of "joined a terrorist organisation"
No I don't think she filled out a membership form and paid a subscription as some seem to think. But she travelled to Syria willingly to become a jihad bride. That's joining in my book.
She's a dangerous person who should be treated as such. People who follow ISIS are responsible for some of the worst terrorist acts the western world has seen since the IRA.


What would be suitable punishment for supporting the IRA and justifying civilian deaths in Ireland?

I get your point, but not relevant to this particular issue. This is an issue of citizenship and nationality for me after fleeing your country of birth to join Islamic State, for all intents and purposes an 'enemy nation'.

Now Islamic State (in it's current form) is defeated, she wants to come home. If those quotes are indeed accurate, doesn't regret a thing purely because she is 9 months pregnant for some good old fashioned free NHS/Social Welfare goodies presumably. I can't for one second think why the British Govt would extend themselves in any way to help this woman.

Should those who supported the IRA be denied the NHS and Welfare? 

If Britain was at war with ISIS then there are treason laws which may be applicable.
Even if not, ISIS is a proscribed organisation and there will be some catch-all aiding and abetting a terrorist organisation she could potentially be prosecuted under.

Again I get your point, but....But we can agree that the IRA was fighting an invading force, for want to better terminology on their own land? I don't see the IRA as a clearly offensive force, they were borne out of defence of an already conquered territory? It's not a like for like comparison for me.

Islamic state was an invading force in a foreign land(s), she's left all natural borders (be it civil, national or even European) to join the Caliphate. She's backed the losing horse in her immaturity and will have to deal with whatever the consequences may be. I don't see how they'll prosecute her for anything, her interview she seems that stupid to even say some of those things if she is a danger - it seems mostly to herself and child so the chances of her being part of some kind of cell upon coming 'home' would be limited, not to mention you have to imagine the British wouldn't take their eyes off her for years.

It's an interesting case, I'm interested to see how the British deal with this - if she does come home you all know she'll subjected to serious hate crimes.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 02:02:00 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:46:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

No, but that's not the point, is it?

The problem here is that everything is slightly complicated by teeny weeny things like laws and rights.

Im not questioning the laws or rights - simply asking how people would feel about it and if you would be happy?
Grand so.

We've established her legal rights should be upheld, and the law should be upheld.

And that's basically the end of the thread.

So would you be happy if she was moved in to your street? Simple question Sid
No, of course not - but that has absolutely no bearing as to whether she should be allowed to move to my street - if I lived in the UK, of course, which I don't.

There are many people I'd rather didn't live beside me - some of them are even on this forum.

I'd absolutely hate it if Stephen Yaxley-Lennon moved into the house next to me, for instance. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have the right to move into the house next to me, or that I think he should be locked up without due process.

Not liking somebody is not a basis for locking them up or denying them their legal rights.

And it is sort of a shame to have to explain that.



Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 02:09:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 02:02:00 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:46:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

No, but that's not the point, is it?

The problem here is that everything is slightly complicated by teeny weeny things like laws and rights.

Im not questioning the laws or rights - simply asking how people would feel about it and if you would be happy?
Grand so.

We've established her legal rights should be upheld, and the law should be upheld.

And that's basically the end of the thread.

So would you be happy if she was moved in to your street? Simple question Sid
No, of course not - but that has absolutely no bearing as to whether she should be allowed to move to my street - if I lived in the UK, of course, which I don't.

There are many people I'd rather didn't live beside me - some of them are even on this forum.

I'd absolutely hate it if Stephen Yaxley-Lennon moved into the house next to me, for instance. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have the right to move into the house next to me, or that I think he should be locked up without due process.

Not liking somebody is not a basis for locking them up or denying them their legal rights.

And it is sort of a shame to have to explain that.

No I get what you are saying however it does go some way to explain the opposition to her getting back in.

Fear of moving close to you/me etc
Fear of attempting to brainwash those she comes in contact with or young impressionable people.
Fear of housing other like minded individuals.
Fear of a lone wolf attack.

Simply because she holds a passport doesnt make it right that she should get back in
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 02:17:01 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 02:09:35 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 02:02:00 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:46:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

No, but that's not the point, is it?

The problem here is that everything is slightly complicated by teeny weeny things like laws and rights.

Im not questioning the laws or rights - simply asking how people would feel about it and if you would be happy?
Grand so.

We've established her legal rights should be upheld, and the law should be upheld.

And that's basically the end of the thread.

So would you be happy if she was moved in to your street? Simple question Sid
No, of course not - but that has absolutely no bearing as to whether she should be allowed to move to my street - if I lived in the UK, of course, which I don't.

There are many people I'd rather didn't live beside me - some of them are even on this forum.

I'd absolutely hate it if Stephen Yaxley-Lennon moved into the house next to me, for instance. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have the right to move into the house next to me, or that I think he should be locked up without due process.

Not liking somebody is not a basis for locking them up or denying them their legal rights.

And it is sort of a shame to have to explain that.

No I get what you are saying however it does go some way to explain the opposition to her getting back in.

Fear of moving close to you/me etc
Fear of attempting to brainwash those she comes in contact with or young impressionable people.
Fear of housing other like minded individuals.
Fear of a lone wolf attack.

Simply because she holds a passport doesnt make it right that she should get back in
The UK has to have a duty of care for its citizens. It is absolutely right that she should get back in and then let due process do the rest.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dolph1 on February 15, 2019, 02:18:15 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 02:02:00 PM

No, of course not - but that has absolutely no bearing as to whether she should be allowed to move to my street - if I lived in the UK, of course, which I don't.

There are many people I'd rather didn't live beside me - some of them are even on this forum.

I'd absolutely hate it if Stephen Yaxley-Lennon moved into the house next to me, for instance. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have the right to move into the house next to me, or that I think he should be locked up without due process.

Not liking somebody is not a basis for locking them up or denying them their legal rights.

And it is sort of a shame to have to explain that.

You mean Tommy Robinson instead there Eamonnca1??
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dolph1 on February 15, 2019, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 02:17:01 PM
The UK has to have a duty of care for its citizens. It is absolutely right that she should get back in and then let due process do the rest.

That's ironic since you think that the rights of American citizens aren't worth a dime and advocate open borders.

If you said the USA has a duty of care for it's citizens you would be fully behind the building of the southern wall.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on February 15, 2019, 02:49:01 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on February 15, 2019, 02:20:46 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 02:17:01 PM
The UK has to have a duty of care for its citizens. It is absolutely right that she should get back in and then let due process do the rest.

That's ironic since you think that the rights of American citizens aren't worth a dime and advocate open borders.

If you said the USA has a duty of care for it's citizens you would be fully behind the building of the southern wall.
Wrong dude,
You would be behind collecting all the guns and destroying them

https://www.newsweek.com/parkland-shooting-when-anniversary-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-school-1330882

But you hate Americans, don't you ?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on February 15, 2019, 02:49:43 PM
This is very like the Brexit issue

If the UK leaves and changes its mind it should be let back in
Surely
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: tonto1888 on February 15, 2019, 04:19:58 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 02:02:00 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:46:09 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2019, 01:24:22 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 01:09:02 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 01:02:03 PM
Quote from: Taylor on February 15, 2019, 12:59:14 PM
Question - for anyone wanting to take her back.

Would you be happy if she moved into your street for your child to grow up playing/hanging out etc with your child or indeed for her to start hanging out with your children?

No, but that's not the point, is it?

The problem here is that everything is slightly complicated by teeny weeny things like laws and rights.

Im not questioning the laws or rights - simply asking how people would feel about it and if you would be happy?
Grand so.

We've established her legal rights should be upheld, and the law should be upheld.

And that's basically the end of the thread.

So would you be happy if she was moved in to your street? Simple question Sid
No, of course not - but that has absolutely no bearing as to whether she should be allowed to move to my street - if I lived in the UK, of course, which I don't.

There are many people I'd rather didn't live beside me - some of them are even on this forum.

I'd absolutely hate it if Stephen Yaxley-Lennon moved into the house next to me, for instance. That doesn't mean he shouldn't have the right to move into the house next to me, or that I think he should be locked up without due process.

Not liking somebody is not a basis for locking them up or denying them their legal rights.

And it is sort of a shame to have to explain that.

I know this is a serious thread but the line about some of them are even on this forum made me chuckle
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 06:57:24 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 01:47:18 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 01:09:17 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 11:18:38 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 15, 2019, 11:12:37 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 15, 2019, 10:32:31 AM
Quote from: gallsman on February 15, 2019, 10:23:10 AM
Did she? I mean legally, did she join a terrorist organisation? Can you prove it? Define "joined"?

If you can prove it, what are the consequences? Strip her of her passport and citizenship? Is that legal? Don't let her back in? Where does she go when the Syrians don't want her?

So many questions and nuances that people conveniently ignore.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/feb/14/london-schoolgirl-who-fled-to-join-isis-wants-to-return-to-uk

Direct Quote -

"Mostly it was a normal life in Raqqa, every now and then bombing and stuff," she said. "But when I saw my first severed head in a bin it didn't faze me at all. It was from a captured fighter seized on the battlefield, an enemy of Islam."

Indefensible.

Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2019, 11:01:53 AM
Definition of "joined a terrorist organisation"
No I don't think she filled out a membership form and paid a subscription as some seem to think. But she travelled to Syria willingly to become a jihad bride. That's joining in my book.
She's a dangerous person who should be treated as such. People who follow ISIS are responsible for some of the worst terrorist acts the western world has seen since the IRA.


What would be suitable punishment for supporting the IRA and justifying civilian deaths in Ireland?

I get your point, but not relevant to this particular issue. This is an issue of citizenship and nationality for me after fleeing your country of birth to join Islamic State, for all intents and purposes an 'enemy nation'.

Now Islamic State (in it's current form) is defeated, she wants to come home. If those quotes are indeed accurate, doesn't regret a thing purely because she is 9 months pregnant for some good old fashioned free NHS/Social Welfare goodies presumably. I can't for one second think why the British Govt would extend themselves in any way to help this woman.

Should those who supported the IRA be denied the NHS and Welfare? 

If Britain was at war with ISIS then there are treason laws which may be applicable.
Even if not, ISIS is a proscribed organisation and there will be some catch-all aiding and abetting a terrorist organisation she could potentially be prosecuted under.

Again I get your point, but....But we can agree that the IRA was fighting an invading force, for want to better terminology on their own land? I don't see the IRA as a clearly offensive force, they were borne out of defence of an already conquered territory? It's not a like for like comparison for me.

Islamic state was an invading force in a foreign land(s), she's left all natural borders (be it civil, national or even European) to join the Caliphate. She's backed the losing horse in her immaturity and will have to deal with whatever the consequences may be. I don't see how they'll prosecute her for anything, her interview she seems that stupid to even say some of those things if she is a danger - it seems mostly to herself and child so the chances of her being part of some kind of cell upon coming 'home' would be limited, not to mention you have to imagine the British wouldn't take their eyes off her for years.

It's an interesting case, I'm interested to see how the British deal with this - if she does come home you all know she'll subjected to serious hate crimes.
Again, playing devils advocate, ISIS would argue they were reasserting the caliphate, overthrowing the British/ French imposed artificial borders and foreign backed dictators and were a legitimately army fighting for their homeland. They would not be the first army to carry out acts of terrorism in the lands of their enemies.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on February 17, 2019, 04:31:49 PM
I see a lot of coverage on it and a lot of right wing media commentators going mental about allowing her back in... I've yet to see many left wing commentators say they want her back or she deserves to be back here aside from the original journo.

Trump has actually said Europe should go back and round up everyone who left them and take them for trial!!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 17, 2019, 04:40:00 PM
She has to get back in to UK now - the child benefit claim needs to be lodged with Tower Hamlets JBO.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Main Street on February 18, 2019, 12:57:42 PM
I read the usual type of hysterical guff from an UK  home minister, stuck in the gutter of populism where his constituency lies.

This young woman is a british citizen, fully entitled to a UK passport and entitled to land anywhere in the UK.  There is no just cause to refuse both those rights. She may be questioned and assessed, but that's about it. A crown prosecutor would have to scape the barrel of hysteria to charge her with departing the UK at the age of 15 to marry a fighter,  especially when 'they' had full opportunity to detain her at departures.
Should the crown prosecutor be so fanatically inclined and charge her with being a member of a terrorist group, evidence would have to offered that she did anything to actively support terrorism. Contrary to common populist belief, living under siege in a war zone, baking bread and raising a family is not regarded as evidence of assisting the cause of terrorism. No court, not even the compromised courts in the UK could find her guilty. Such a prosecution would just be a political stunt to satisfy the constituency of little english bigots.



.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?

What does joining ISIS look like? An application form? Yearly subscription? Changing your twitter bio to ISIS Member? Do you think they get a membership card?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dolph1 on February 18, 2019, 01:11:51 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 18, 2019, 12:57:42 PM
I read the usual type of hysterical guff from an UK  home minister, stuck in the gutter of populism where his constituency lies.

This young woman is a british citizen, fully entitled to a UK passport and entitled to land anywhere in the UK.  There is no just cause to refuse both those rights. She may be questioned and assessed, but that's about it. A crown prosecutor would have to scape the barrel of hysteria to charge her with departing the UK at the age of 15 to marry a fighter,  especially when 'they' had full opportunity to detain her at departures.
Should the crown prosecutor be so fanatically inclined and charge her with being a member of a terrorist group, evidence would have to offered that she did anything to actively support terrorism. Contrary to common populist belief, living under siege in a war zone, baking bread and raising a family is not regarded as evidence of assisting the cause of terrorism. No court, not even the compromised courts in the UK could find her guilty. Such a prosecution would just be a political stunt to satisfy the constituency of little english bigots.

You are confusing bigotry with people who are afraid of what these people are capable of if allowed to return to their countries of origin.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:15:18 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 18, 2019, 12:57:42 PM
I read the usual type of hysterical guff from an UK  home minister, stuck in the gutter of populism where his constituency lies.

This young woman is a british citizen, fully entitled to a UK passport and entitled to land anywhere in the UK.  There is no just cause to refuse both those rights. She may be questioned and assessed, but that's about it. A crown prosecutor would have to scape the barrel of hysteria to charge her with departing the UK at the age of 15 to marry a fighter,  especially when 'they' had full opportunity to detain her at departures.
Should the crown prosecutor be so fanatically inclined and charge her with being a member of a terrorist group, evidence would have to offered that she did anything to actively support terrorism. Contrary to common populist belief, living under siege in a war zone, baking bread and raising a family is not regarded as evidence of assisting the cause of terrorism. No court, not even the compromised courts in the UK could find her guilty. Such a prosecution would just be a political stunt to satisfy the constituency of little english bigots.



.

What utter drivel. She voluntarily went to Syria to join a the caliphate as a Jihadi bride.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?

What does joining ISIS look like? An application form? Yearly subscription? Changing your twitter bio to ISIS Member? Do you think they get a membership card?

Well they're a proscribed organisation. Being a member is punishable with a jail term and/or a fine. But to answer your questions I have no idea. Someone would need to make a finding on it tho
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hereiam on February 18, 2019, 03:11:52 PM
How do they prove you were/are a member of a proscribed organisation here in Ireland.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on February 18, 2019, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?

What does joining ISIS look like? An application form? Yearly subscription? Changing your twitter bio to ISIS Member? Do you think they get a membership card?

Well they're a proscribed organisation. Being a member is punishable with a jail term and/or a fine. But to answer your questions I have no idea. Someone would need to make a finding on it tho

Has she not basically said she went off and joined ISIS?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 18, 2019, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 18, 2019, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?

What does joining ISIS look like? An application form? Yearly subscription? Changing your twitter bio to ISIS Member? Do you think they get a membership card?

Well they're a proscribed organisation. Being a member is punishable with a jail term and/or a fine. But to answer your questions I have no idea. Someone would need to make a finding on it tho

Has she not basically said she went off and joined ISIS?

Yes.
I see her two mates are presumed dead. The lord work in mysterious ways.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 03:51:18 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 18, 2019, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?

What does joining ISIS look like? An application form? Yearly subscription? Changing your twitter bio to ISIS Member? Do you think they get a membership card?

Well they're a proscribed organisation. Being a member is punishable with a jail term and/or a fine. But to answer your questions I have no idea. Someone would need to make a finding on it tho

Has she not basically said she went off and joined ISIS?

If she has then it would be a fairly open and closed case I imagine
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: gallsman on February 18, 2019, 04:25:40 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 03:51:18 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 18, 2019, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?

What does joining ISIS look like? An application form? Yearly subscription? Changing your twitter bio to ISIS Member? Do you think they get a membership card?

Well they're a proscribed organisation. Being a member is punishable with a jail term and/or a fine. But to answer your questions I have no idea. Someone would need to make a finding on it tho

Has she not basically said she went off and joined ISIS?

If she has then it would be a fairly open and closed case I imagine

And what would that closed case look like? She's a UK citizen. I can't imagine the Syrian government will be shouting to keep her around.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnnycool on February 18, 2019, 04:40:56 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2019, 03:50:24 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 18, 2019, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?

What does joining ISIS look like? An application form? Yearly subscription? Changing your twitter bio to ISIS Member? Do you think they get a membership card?

Well they're a proscribed organisation. Being a member is punishable with a jail term and/or a fine. But to answer your questions I have no idea. Someone would need to make a finding on it tho

Has she not basically said she went off and joined ISIS?

Yes.
I see her two mates are presumed dead. The lord work in mysterious ways.

Depends who killed them.

US backed Kurds = good
Russian backed Syrian army = bad, act of terrorism, innocent civilian.

Not sure our Lord Jesus Christ flies drones.


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 07:02:16 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 18, 2019, 04:25:40 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 03:51:18 PM
Quote from: screenexile on February 18, 2019, 03:25:38 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?

What does joining ISIS look like? An application form? Yearly subscription? Changing your twitter bio to ISIS Member? Do you think they get a membership card?

Well they're a proscribed organisation. Being a member is punishable with a jail term and/or a fine. But to answer your questions I have no idea. Someone would need to make a finding on it tho

Has she not basically said she went off and joined ISIS?

If she has then it would be a fairly open and closed case I imagine

And what would that closed case look like? She's a UK citizen. I can't imagine the Syrian government will be shouting to keep her around.
What's the Syrian government got to do with it?
She has, apparently, admitted she joined isis. They are a proscribed organisation. Membership of a proscribed organisation can get you a jail term and/or a fine. Therefore if she returns that is what she should get. No?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 18, 2019, 07:06:13 PM
I find this whole thing bizarre.....all this media attention.....who initiated this contact? It's more distraction bull....let the little englanders vent their anger at blacks/immigrants/muslims.....and forget all about Brexit......it's all a bad dream.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: michaelg on February 18, 2019, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on February 18, 2019, 07:06:13 PM
I find this whole thing bizarre.....all this media attention.....who initiated this contact? It's more distraction bull....let the little englanders vent their anger at blacks/immigrants/muslims.....and forget all about Brexit......it's all a bad dream.
Are they allowed to vent their anger at the terrorists who killed 22 people, many of whom were children, in Manchester?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 18, 2019, 09:28:59 PM
Quote from: michaelg on February 18, 2019, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on February 18, 2019, 07:06:13 PM
I find this whole thing bizarre.....all this media attention.....who initiated this contact? It's more distraction bull....let the little englanders vent their anger at blacks/immigrants/muslims.....and forget all about Brexit......it's all a bad dream.
Are they allowed to vent their anger at the terrorists who killed 22 people, many of whom were children, in Manchester?

Absolutely
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Gabriel_Hurl on February 18, 2019, 09:32:21 PM
Something similar is happening here atm - the government has told them "good luck - you are on your own"

QuoteAn Ontario man who spent four years fighting for ISIS and used social media to recruit others now wants to return home with the help of the Canadian government.

Canadian Mohammed Ali says the Islamic State terror group is abandoning its foreign militants as it continues losing ground against U.S.-backed Kurdish fighters.

The 28-year-old says he, his Canadian wife and their two children have been "hung out to dry" and that it is no longer safe for them in Syria.

"Why shouldn't I be able to go home? I've done nothing in Canada. I've broken no laws there at all," said Ali in an interview.

Ali and his family attempted to flee to Turkey after he was cast out of the terror group, but were captured by coalition-led forces. They have been detained in a Syrian prison for the past nine months.

Ali fears the Islamic State militants still have sleeper cells and that members are hiding out until U.S. forces withdraw from the war zone.

Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale told CTV National News' Vanessa Lee that repatriating foreign fighters and their families is not a priority. He added that Canada will not put its diplomatic officers at risk in a "dangerous and dysfunctional" part of the world.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: michaelg on February 18, 2019, 09:47:42 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on February 18, 2019, 09:28:59 PM
Quote from: michaelg on February 18, 2019, 08:32:22 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on February 18, 2019, 07:06:13 PM
I find this whole thing bizarre.....all this media attention.....who initiated this contact? It's more distraction bull....let the little englanders vent their anger at blacks/immigrants/muslims.....and forget all about Brexit......it's all a bad dream.
Are they allowed to vent their anger at the terrorists who killed 22 people, many of whom were children, in Manchester?

Absolutely
The girl in question has said the attack in Manchester was justified.  Might go some of the way to explain people's reactions.  Not that bizarre in that context.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Rossfan on February 18, 2019, 11:33:34 PM
Objectional as her comments are - Are they a crime?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Main Street on February 18, 2019, 11:42:12 PM
There's some comparison between the Syrian dictatorship suppressive response to civil protest in 2011 and the Ni statelet's response to civil rights protests in the 1960s, But to fully appreciate the extent of what an Assad would have accomplished in the 6 counties, all nationalist  enclaves would have been bombarded to a pulp, if you were a nationalist you were either dead or displaced.
And all that before the emergence of  the faint semblance of an armed resistance.

Assad and the orange regieme would have been doing high 5s.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: BennyHarp on February 19, 2019, 12:12:52 AM
I haven't really been following the full back story to this, but I find it strange that ISIS would just let her wander out of their enclave and move back to the UK. I'd have thought this sort of disloyalty would have resulted in her being executed.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Linkbox on February 19, 2019, 12:16:18 AM
NY times did a podcast series (Caliphate) about ISIS and one of their police force who returned to Canada. Interesting listening.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Capt Pat on February 19, 2019, 12:29:01 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 19, 2019, 12:12:52 AM
I haven't really been following the full back story to this, but I find it strange that ISIS would just let her wander out of their enclave and move back to the UK. I'd have thought this sort of disloyalty would have resulted in her being executed.

Not really. Isis are on the run at this stage. They are falling apart and scattering.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: tonto1888 on February 19, 2019, 06:51:41 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 18, 2019, 11:33:34 PM
Objectional as her comments are - Are they a crime?

I don't think so
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on February 19, 2019, 07:55:54 AM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 02:53:42 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 18, 2019, 01:08:17 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 18, 2019, 01:01:16 PM
Did she actually join ISIS?

What does joining ISIS look like? An application form? Yearly subscription? Changing your twitter bio to ISIS Member? Do you think they get a membership card?

Well they're a proscribed organisation. Being a member is punishable with a jail term and/or a fine. But to answer your questions I have no idea. Someone would need to make a finding on it tho

I think the wording allows for Providing support to a proscribed organisation" as it is often difficult to prove membership. The question then becomes "Did her actions provide support for ISIS". IMO the answer is yes.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Orior on February 19, 2019, 08:01:14 AM
She displays a confidence which is a bit galling. The brits should recruit her as an anti-Isis ambassador.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hound on February 19, 2019, 10:20:12 AM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on February 18, 2019, 09:32:21 PM
Something similar is happening here atm - the government has told them "good luck - you are on your own"

QuoteAn Ontario man who spent four years fighting for ISIS and used social media to recruit others now wants to return home with the help of the Canadian government.

Canadian Mohammed Ali says the Islamic State terror group is abandoning its foreign militants as it continues losing ground against U.S.-backed Kurdish fighters.

The 28-year-old says he, his Canadian wife and their two children have been "hung out to dry" and that it is no longer safe for them in Syria.

"Why shouldn't I be able to go home? I've done nothing in Canada. I've broken no laws there at all," said Ali in an interview.

Ali and his family attempted to flee to Turkey after he was cast out of the terror group, but were captured by coalition-led forces. They have been detained in a Syrian prison for the past nine months.

Ali fears the Islamic State militants still have sleeper cells and that members are hiding out until U.S. forces withdraw from the war zone.

Public Safety Minister Ralph Goodale told CTV National News' Vanessa Lee that repatriating foreign fighters and their families is not a priority. He added that Canada will not put its diplomatic officers at risk in a "dangerous and dysfunctional" part of the world.
Is this not exactly the same as the UK case

They are not stopping her from returning. But they will detain and question her when/if she arrives. If she hasn't committed any crime , then there's not a lot they can do, she'll have legal reps. But if she has committed a crime, then she'll have to answer the charges. 

UK will not put any money into or risk lives in an attempt to 'rescue' her. She needs to make her own way back or obtain some other funding.  Proper order.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 19, 2019, 10:21:25 AM
Danny Dyer says she's to get back into the UK again. Sorted. Matter closed.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 19, 2019, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 19, 2019, 12:12:52 AM
I haven't really been following the full back story to this, but I find it strange that ISIS would just let her wander out of their enclave and move back to the UK. I'd have thought this sort of disloyalty would have resulted in her being executed.

ISIS is defeated and finished in state form, they hold a tiny area on the Iraqi/Syrian border which is only a matter of time before it's overrun, they are using human shields at the moment to halt progress.

It'll morph back to an Al Qaeda like organisation from here, perhaps another group will rise. As far as being a target on the map this group is finished and like Capt Pat said, they are on the run (those with any kind of intelligence)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: BennyHarp on February 19, 2019, 11:35:00 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 19, 2019, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 19, 2019, 12:12:52 AM
I haven't really been following the full back story to this, but I find it strange that ISIS would just let her wander out of their enclave and move back to the UK. I'd have thought this sort of disloyalty would have resulted in her being executed.

ISIS is defeated and finished in state form, they hold a tiny area on the Iraqi/Syrian border which is only a matter of time before it's overrun, they are using human shields at the moment to halt progress.

It'll morph back to an Al Qaeda like organisation from here, perhaps another group will rise. As far as being a target on the map this group is finished and like Capt Pat said, they are on the run (those with any kind of intelligence)

Fair enough, but i still would have thought that they'd have enough firepower remaining to stop a woman who is 9 months pregnant, and possibly knows a little too much about the organisation, from casually wandering off back to the arms of UK. I'd have thought they were still trying to play some sort of propaganda game. Or maybe as you say, they are so on the verge of collapse that they have bigger things to worry about.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 19, 2019, 11:36:55 AM
The legal aid brigade will be rubbing their hands....another cash cow to milk to death.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 19, 2019, 11:40:32 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 19, 2019, 11:35:00 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 19, 2019, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 19, 2019, 12:12:52 AM
I haven't really been following the full back story to this, but I find it strange that ISIS would just let her wander out of their enclave and move back to the UK. I'd have thought this sort of disloyalty would have resulted in her being executed.

ISIS is defeated and finished in state form, they hold a tiny area on the Iraqi/Syrian border which is only a matter of time before it's overrun, they are using human shields at the moment to halt progress.

It'll morph back to an Al Qaeda like organisation from here, perhaps another group will rise. As far as being a target on the map this group is finished and like Capt Pat said, they are on the run (those with any kind of intelligence)

Fair enough, but i still would have thought that they'd have enough firepower remaining to stop a woman who is 9 months pregnant, and possibly knows a little too much about the organisation, from casually wandering off back to the arms of UK. I'd have thought they were still trying to play some sort of propaganda game. Or maybe as you say, they are so on the verge of collapse that they have bigger things to worry about.

Absolutely, but she probably would have slowed them down, maybe she was cut loose? Surprising the group didn't use her as some kind of sick PR stunt myself but those lads have bigger problems right now.

The biggest question I have now with the fall of ISIS is, where is all the money? There are likely some leaders of that organisation, wherever they may be now with the access and knowledge of enough money I would imagine to keep going and funding war for a long time.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on February 19, 2019, 03:43:40 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 19, 2019, 11:40:32 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 19, 2019, 11:35:00 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 19, 2019, 11:30:50 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on February 19, 2019, 12:12:52 AM
I haven't really been following the full back story to this, but I find it strange that ISIS would just let her wander out of their enclave and move back to the UK. I'd have thought this sort of disloyalty would have resulted in her being executed.

ISIS is defeated and finished in state form, they hold a tiny area on the Iraqi/Syrian border which is only a matter of time before it's overrun, they are using human shields at the moment to halt progress.

It'll morph back to an Al Qaeda like organisation from here, perhaps another group will rise. As far as being a target on the map this group is finished and like Capt Pat said, they are on the run (those with any kind of intelligence)

Fair enough, but i still would have thought that they'd have enough firepower remaining to stop a woman who is 9 months pregnant, and possibly knows a little too much about the organisation, from casually wandering off back to the arms of UK. I'd have thought they were still trying to play some sort of propaganda game. Or maybe as you say, they are so on the verge of collapse that they have bigger things to worry about.

Absolutely, but she probably would have slowed them down, maybe she was cut loose? Surprising the group didn't use her as some kind of sick PR stunt myself but those lads have bigger problems right now.

The biggest question I have now with the fall of ISIS is, where is all the money? There are likely some leaders of that organisation, wherever they may be now with the access and knowledge of enough money I would imagine to keep going and funding war for a long time.

I think their cash reserves were a regular target of US drones. As well as targeting their accounts the US went after the bundles of hard currency as it was a large and flammable target and stopped them from functioning as a Government. Tha tis not to say that some men will have got away with vast sums.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 19, 2019, 07:17:54 PM
The UK have effectively shredded her citizenship leaving her stateless. I never knew this could be done unless the person was a dual citizen.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Capt Pat on February 19, 2019, 07:22:08 PM
Where will she go now that her citizenship has been revoked? Bangladesh?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 19, 2019, 07:27:52 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on February 19, 2019, 07:22:08 PM
Where will she go now that her citizenship has been revoked? Bangladesh?

I understand her Mother holds a Bangladeshi passport, not sure if she does.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Disgusting right wing populist decision.

What a vile government the UK has.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 19, 2019, 07:54:10 PM
It'll be interesting to see what happens. While I have no love for her and think she should spend a significant amount of time in prison, I believe that should be a UK prison.

Wonder what nationality the child is in this scenario? Syrian? British?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 19, 2019, 08:06:10 PM
Thought it was illegal to make a person stateless.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 19, 2019, 08:15:02 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/isis-bride-shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-by-british-government/ar-BBTOLHs?li=BBoPWjQ

Appears to be changing her tune now.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on February 19, 2019, 08:24:33 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on February 19, 2019, 08:06:10 PM
Thought it was illegal to make a person stateless.

Looks like she's a dual citizen and the UK have revoked theirs first!!


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LCohen on February 19, 2019, 08:25:52 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on February 19, 2019, 08:15:02 PM
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/isis-bride-shamima-begum-has-uk-citizenship-revoked-by-british-government/ar-BBTOLHs?li=BBoPWjQ

Appears to be changing her tune now.

Appalling decision.

I totally agreed with the previous position of taking her back and subjecting her to investigation if she presented herself but actually putting a boot on the ground to fish her out
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Wildweasel74 on February 19, 2019, 10:09:38 PM
Ah sure there many of you could only wish you be declassified as a British citizen.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Main Street on February 19, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
It's a blatantly sexist stunt as well. Hundreds of males have returned to the UK and the vast majority had no action taken against them, hardly noticed, but  soon as a young teen bride appears on the scene the media does a frenzy attack then the scum of the earth vent their spleen against her and that's not just on this board.

It' was a well known recruitment ploy in order  to lure muslim males out to join up with ISIS, where gullible teen females  were already waiting for them and marry them. If a sex starved muslim male wanted a bride all he had to do was travel to Syria and sign up to ISIS, financial bonuses were even provided for babies.  But now all the moralisers can do is jump on their high horses incandescent with outrage and attack the young woman, meanwhlie there are probably many hundreds of known, already returned  to the UK, ISIS male fighters just carrying on with their lives and not a peep of outrage, no sky,itv, uk times reporters recording your every naive word, twisting the words and splashing it out on headlines for an all too gullible public.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Saffrongael on February 19, 2019, 10:34:14 PM
Didn't know the Irish News Allison Morris was on this board  ::)
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: RedHand88 on February 19, 2019, 11:31:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Disgusting right wing populist decision.

What a vile government the UK has.

You think that's right wing, you should see the stuff the girl in question believes....
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Capt Pat on February 19, 2019, 11:43:19 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 19, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
It's a blatantly sexist stunt as well. Hundreds of males have returned to the UK and the vast majority had no action taken against them, hardly noticed, but  soon as a young teen bride appears on the scene the media does a frenzy attack then the scum of the earth vent their spleen against her and that's not just on this board.

It' was a well known recruitment ploy in order  to lure muslim males out to join up with ISIS, where gullible teen females  were already waiting for them and marry them. If a sex starved muslim male wanted a bride all he had to do was travel to Syria and sign up to ISIS, financial bonuses were even provided for babies.  But now all the moralisers can do is jump on their high horses incandescent with outrage and attack the young woman, meanwhlie there are probably many hundreds of known, already returned  to the UK, ISIS male fighters just carrying on with their lives and not a peep of outrage, no sky,itv, uk times reporters recording your every naive word, twisting the words and splashing it out on headlines for an all too gullible public.

Naive. More like psychotic. She will fit in better in a muslim country like Bangladesh.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 11:47:38 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 19, 2019, 11:31:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Disgusting right wing populist decision.

What a vile government the UK has.

You think that's right wing, you should see the stuff the girl in question believes....
You didn't debate my point.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dolph1 on February 20, 2019, 12:52:41 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 11:47:38 PM
Quote from: RedHand88 on February 19, 2019, 11:31:05 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Disgusting right wing populist decision.

What a vile government the UK has.

You think that's right wing, you should see the stuff the girl in question believes....
You didn't debate my point.

Eamonnca1 / Sid - you're for open borders so of course you'll welcome her back with open arms.
Sure you were all for Obama funding Iran!!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Rossfan on February 20, 2019, 01:14:22 AM
As neither Eamon or Sid are British they won't have any role in that lady's place of residence.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: gallsman on February 20, 2019, 10:28:31 AM
For f**k sake, this gets even better. From the secret barrister on Twitter:

UK Counterterrorism Strategy 2018, foreword by Sajid Javid. How to deal with a British woman who travels to join ISIS and has a baby:

1) Managed return to UK
2) Criminal investigation
3) De-radicalisation
4) Care for baby

The entire thing smacks of right wing populism at a time they need it most. Pathetic.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dolph1 on February 20, 2019, 10:57:40 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on February 20, 2019, 01:14:22 AM
As neither Eamon or Sid are British they won't have any role in that lady's place of residence.

They are the same person. I can't say if he calls him/herself british or not.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on February 20, 2019, 02:32:33 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 20, 2019, 10:28:31 AM
For f**k sake, this gets even better. From the secret barrister on Twitter:

UK Counterterrorism Strategy 2018, foreword by Sajid Javid. How to deal with a British woman who travels to join ISIS and has a baby:

1) Managed return to UK
2) Criminal investigation
3) De-radicalisation
4) Care for baby

The entire thing smacks of right wing populism at a time they need it most. Pathetic.

Taking back control 😜
Comedy gold in House of Commons 😂
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on February 20, 2019, 02:58:44 PM
Quote from: Main Street on February 19, 2019, 10:24:47 PM
It's a blatantly sexist stunt as well. Hundreds of males have returned to the UK and the vast majority had no action taken against them, hardly noticed, but  soon as a young teen bride appears on the scene the media does a frenzy attack then the scum of the earth vent their spleen against her and that's not just on this board.

It' was a well known recruitment ploy in order  to lure muslim males out to join up with ISIS, where gullible teen females  were already waiting for them and marry them. If a sex starved muslim male wanted a bride all he had to do was travel to Syria and sign up to ISIS, financial bonuses were even provided for babies.  But now all the moralisers can do is jump on their high horses incandescent with outrage and attack the young woman, meanwhlie there are probably many hundreds of known, already returned  to the UK, ISIS male fighters just carrying on with their lives and not a peep of outrage, no sky,itv, uk times reporters recording your every naive word, twisting the words and splashing it out on headlines for an all too gullible public.

#metoo
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on February 20, 2019, 10:17:58 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 20, 2019, 10:28:31 AM
For f**k sake, this gets even better. From the secret barrister on Twitter:

UK Counterterrorism Strategy 2018, foreword by Sajid Javid. How to deal with a British woman who travels to join ISIS and has a baby:

1) Managed return to UK
2) Criminal investigation
3) De-radicalisation
4) Care for baby

The entire thing smacks of right wing populism at a time they need it most. Pathetic.

LOL...... and it just keeps getting better.....

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-47312207
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: screenexile on February 20, 2019, 10:28:12 PM
She'll be back so!!
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Capt Pat on February 21, 2019, 12:10:00 AM
It looks like it is back to London so.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: omaghjoe on February 21, 2019, 12:20:55 AM
I know there is an innocent new born child at the center of this.....But that really would be hilarious
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: moysider on February 21, 2019, 12:52:16 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 19, 2019, 07:54:10 PM
It'll be interesting to see what happens. While I have no love for her and think she should spend a significant amount of time in prison, I believe that should be a UK prison.

Wonder what nationality the child is in this scenario? Syrian? British?
Neither.
The baby was born in a caliphate that is not going to exist for much longer. Why does it matter anyway?
The old saying that 'you can't have your cake and eat it' sits well with this young girl, that went on an adventure that included heads cut off and people stoned to death. All the shite that happened, why is this girl so important??
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Gmac on February 21, 2019, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Disgusting right wing populist decision.

What a vile government the UK has.
what should they do with her ?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: LeoMc on February 21, 2019, 08:33:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on February 21, 2019, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Disgusting right wing populist decision.

What a vile government the UK has.
what should they do with her ?
Follow their own strategy and have a criminal investigation when / if she returns to the UK. If she has committed a crime then she should receive the appropriate punishment.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: tonto1888 on February 21, 2019, 09:36:57 AM
Quote from: moysider on February 21, 2019, 12:52:16 AM
Quote from: trailer on February 19, 2019, 07:54:10 PM
It'll be interesting to see what happens. While I have no love for her and think she should spend a significant amount of time in prison, I believe that should be a UK prison.

Wonder what nationality the child is in this scenario? Syrian? British?
Neither.
The baby was born in a caliphate that is not going to exist for much longer. Why does it matter anyway?
The old saying that 'you can't have your cake and eat it' sits well with this young girl, that went on an adventure that included heads cut off and people stoned to death. All the shite that happened, why is this girl so important??

If the child was born before she was stripped of her citizenship then the child is British
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 21, 2019, 10:17:44 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2019, 08:33:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on February 21, 2019, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Disgusting right wing populist decision.

What a vile government the UK has.
what should they do with her ?
Follow their own strategy and have a criminal investigation when / if she returns to the UK. If she has committed a crime then she should receive the appropriate punishment.

How could you seriously convict her of anything? I don't know how you would even go about trying to compile the evidence at the cost of the UK Taxpayer and any top defence lawyer would take the case for free as target practice on the highest stage.

I assume at this stage she'll be back in the UK sooner or later with the Bangladesh news.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: tonto1888 on February 21, 2019, 12:46:02 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 21, 2019, 10:17:44 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2019, 08:33:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on February 21, 2019, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Disgusting right wing populist decision.

What a vile government the UK has.
what should they do with her ?
Follow their own strategy and have a criminal investigation when / if she returns to the UK. If she has committed a crime then she should receive the appropriate punishment.

How could you seriously convict her of anything? I don't know how you would even go about trying to compile the evidence at the cost of the UK Taxpayer and any top defence lawyer would take the case for free as target practice on the highest stage.

I assume at this stage she'll be back in the UK sooner or later with the Bangladesh news.

Section 11 of the terrorism act 2000 makes it a criminal offence to belong to it orofess to belong to a terrorist organisation in the UK or overseas.
Section 12(1) of the act makes it a criminal offence to invite support for a proscribed organisation and that's not restricted to money or property

I imagine she could be done under these
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: sid waddell on February 21, 2019, 05:19:44 PM
This decision really is astounding colonial arrogance from the Brits.

"Hey, Bangladesh - we're stripping this brown girl of her British citizenship, and we expect you, our former colony, to give her citizenship, so that she can be your problem and not ours. We don't care that she has never even been to Bangladesh. Know your place, piccaninnies, and do what your rightful master Britain tells you."

This is actually what is happening.

Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: playwiththewind1st on February 21, 2019, 05:23:22 PM
Sure, she might still go Dutch. "I can always wait for jihadi hubby, till he gets out the nick".
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on February 21, 2019, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on February 21, 2019, 12:46:02 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on February 21, 2019, 10:17:44 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on February 21, 2019, 08:33:53 AM
Quote from: Gmac on February 21, 2019, 03:49:40 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 19, 2019, 07:44:50 PM
Disgusting right wing populist decision.

What a vile government the UK has.
what should they do with her ?
Follow their own strategy and have a criminal investigation when / if she returns to the UK. If she has committed a crime then she should receive the appropriate punishment.

How could you seriously convict her of anything? I don't know how you would even go about trying to compile the evidence at the cost of the UK Taxpayer and any top defence lawyer would take the case for free as target practice on the highest stage.

I assume at this stage she'll be back in the UK sooner or later with the Bangladesh news.

Section 11 of the terrorism act 2000 makes it a criminal offence to belong to it orofess to belong to a terrorist organisation in the UK or overseas.
Section 12(1) of the act makes it a criminal offence to invite support for a proscribed organisation and that's not restricted to money or property

I imagine she could be done under these

Very fair point, I wonder how many convictions have been made under these sections?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Dolph1 on February 22, 2019, 11:10:14 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2019, 05:19:44 PM
This decision really is astounding colonial arrogance from the Brits.

"Hey, Bangladesh - we're stripping this brown girl of her British citizenship, and we expect you, our former colony, to give her citizenship, so that she can be your problem and not ours. We don't care that she has never even been to Bangladesh. Know your place, piccaninnies, and do what your rightful master Britain tells you."

This is actually what is happening.

I love how you go straight to race as the reason Eamonnca1/Sid

She is ok with beheading people who she now wants to live amongst.

But she's changed now, right?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnnycool on February 22, 2019, 11:19:47 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on February 22, 2019, 11:10:14 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 21, 2019, 05:19:44 PM
This decision really is astounding colonial arrogance from the Brits.

"Hey, Bangladesh - we're stripping this brown girl of her British citizenship, and we expect you, our former colony, to give her citizenship, so that she can be your problem and not ours. We don't care that she has never even been to Bangladesh. Know your place, piccaninnies, and do what your rightful master Britain tells you."

This is actually what is happening.

I love how you go straight to race as the reason Eamonnca1/Sid

She is ok with beheading people who she now wants to live amongst.

But she's changed now, right?

She's a nut job, don't think there's much argument there.

The argument is how the Brits want to wash their hands off her when she's a British citizen, born and reared.

Also,
  there's rough estimates going round already that over 400 ISIS fighters have already made their way back into the UK so this 19 year old girl really is the least of their worries.

And,
   The Manchester Bomber had been in Libya fighting against Colonel Gaddafi before being allowed to return to the UK with not a question asked. He was doing a good job out there getting rid of Gaddafi so no one gave a f**k.


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on March 09, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47506145

She loses a third child.....not much sympathy here on the mainland......the attitudes more like tough...she knew what she was doing.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Rossfan on March 09, 2019, 01:51:30 PM
What about the lassie from Dundalk?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on March 09, 2019, 09:33:33 PM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on March 09, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47506145

She loses a third child.....not much sympathy here on the mainland......the attitudes more like tough...she knew what she was doing.

A child is dead, which I find very sad. It is not the child's fault who it's parent are. I think the British Government have got this wrong.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Capt Pat on March 09, 2019, 10:03:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 09, 2019, 01:51:30 PM
What about the lassie from Dundalk?

Let her go back to Dundalk as her punishment.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: RedHand88 on March 09, 2019, 11:01:41 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on March 09, 2019, 10:03:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 09, 2019, 01:51:30 PM
What about the lassie from Dundalk?

Let her go back to Dundalk as her punishment.

Come on now, we are a civilised society. There's no call for that.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: armaghniac on March 09, 2019, 11:12:40 PM
Quote from: Capt Pat on March 09, 2019, 10:03:16 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on March 09, 2019, 01:51:30 PM
What about the lassie from Dundalk?

Let her go back to Dundalk as her punishment.

Muirhevnamor is not great, but I'd prefer it to Syria.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Over the Bar on March 10, 2019, 01:10:47 AM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on March 09, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47506145

She loses a third child.....not much sympathy here on the mainland......the attitudes more like tough...she knew what she was doing.

Mainland? WTF??
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: RedHand88 on March 10, 2019, 01:13:51 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on March 10, 2019, 12:49:06 AM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on March 09, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47506145 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47506145)

She loses a third child.....not much sympathy here on the mainland......the attitudes more like tough...she knew what she was doing.
Any chance please that you can clarify "the mainland"? #tiocfaidharla

He means the Irish mainland as opposed to Rathlin or the Aran islands....right?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on March 10, 2019, 08:02:33 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on March 10, 2019, 12:49:06 AM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on March 09, 2019, 12:39:51 PM
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47506145 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47506145)

She loses a third child.....not much sympathy here on the mainland......the attitudes more like tough...she knew what she was doing.
Any chance please that you can clarify "the mainland"? #tiocfaidharla

The mainland......where Britannia rules the waves.....where little englanders love Tommy Robinson....where Alf Garnet types abound.....where the Tories look down their noses at anyone 'coloured' and who didn't attend Eton.....utopia really😂
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hardy on March 10, 2019, 08:42:56 AM
Stockholm syndrome.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: michaelg on March 10, 2019, 09:36:13 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 10, 2019, 08:42:56 AM
Stockholm syndrome.
Nobody is making him stay there (Presumably).
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on March 10, 2019, 09:46:21 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 10, 2019, 09:36:13 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 10, 2019, 08:42:56 AM
Stockholm syndrome.
Nobody is making him stay there (Presumably).

Quite correct....prefer here with all its 'faults' than the sectarian shithole I left in the early 80's.
To each their own.😎
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: michaelg on March 10, 2019, 10:28:48 AM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on March 10, 2019, 09:46:21 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 10, 2019, 09:36:13 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 10, 2019, 08:42:56 AM
Stockholm syndrome.
Nobody is making him stay there (Presumably).

Quite correct....prefer here with all its 'faults' than the sectarian shithole I left in the early 80's.
To each their own.😎
Fair enough.  It's just a shame that some of your views seem a little stuck in the early 80's. 
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on March 10, 2019, 10:38:15 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 10, 2019, 10:28:48 AM
Quote from: Insane Bolt on March 10, 2019, 09:46:21 AM
Quote from: michaelg on March 10, 2019, 09:36:13 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 10, 2019, 08:42:56 AM
Stockholm syndrome.
Nobody is making him stay there (Presumably).

Quite correct....prefer here with all its 'faults' than the sectarian shithole I left in the early 80's.
To each their own.😎
Fair enough.  It's just a shame that some of your views seem a little stuck in the early 80's.

What views?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: trailer on March 10, 2019, 04:16:16 PM
A Child is dead but we'd rather get on someone's back about writing mainland. That's the GAAboard. Playing the man and never the ball.

Don't f**king @ me
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Insane Bolt on March 10, 2019, 04:22:36 PM
Quote from: trailer on March 10, 2019, 04:16:16 PM
A Child is dead but we'd rather get on someone's back about writing mainland. That's the GAAboard. Playing the man and never the ball.

Don't f**king @ me

Relax...it's only a discussion....
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: seafoid on April 15, 2019, 07:00:58 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/apr/10/iraq-seeks-multibillion-fee-to-receive-isis-prisoners-from-syria

Baghdad has asked for a $10bn (£7.6bn) fee up front, then $1bn per annum to receive the detainees, senior western officials have told the Guardian.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.

Legally yes. Morally, Politically....Socially....I'm not so sure.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Main Street on April 16, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.

Legally yes. Morally, Politically....Socially....I'm not so sure.
Yes you Brits or west Brits are really concerned about the possible use or misuse  of Brit exchequer money.
Did you know the KKK was formed and grew because Of Negro Rape, Assault & Murder, well so the KKK claimed that sort of thing happened, not unlike ultra right propaganda against Muslims today.

Meanwhile the 100th anniversary of the Amritsar massacre was acknowledged  to some extent by a minor UK tv channel (CH 4) on Saturday in a documentary named The Massacre that Shook the Empire. Despite it actually being the massacre to shake the british empire, the documentary maker was nonplussed to begin with,  but 5 minutes after visiting the scene of the massacre was prompted to declare that the British Empire in India was an exercise in institutionalised racism and sadistically cruel.
i thought that was a pretty mild statement myself, I would have used stronger words. For the most part British people think that the British empire was beneficial to humanity. Rhees Mog contents that the Amritsar massacre was but a tiny blot. Boris Johnson  in his biography of Churchill doesn't deem it necessary to even mention anything about the Famine of Bengal in 1943, a famine which Churchill's war cabinet's decisions exacerbated the effect of,  to the tune of 3m dead.
But let's get back to wonderfull Blighty and and their attitude to the now young mother, (or is it ex mother)  who can be condemned because of a few edited newspaper and tv accounts, and who you now say is not entitled to present her side of the story to a instituted  court of law,  but let it be trial by daily Mail??
I say old chaps, is that how you play cricket?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on April 16, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Main Street on April 16, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.

Legally yes. Morally, Politically....Socially....I'm not so sure.
Yes you Brits or west Brits are really concerned about the possible use or misuse  of Brit exchequer money.
Did you know the KKK was formed and grew because Of Negro Rape, Assault & Murder, well so the KKK claimed that sort of thing happened, not unlike ultra right propaganda against Muslims today.

Meanwhile the 100th anniversary of the Amritsar massacre was acknowledged  to some extent by a minor UK tv channel (CH 4) on Saturday in a documentary named The Massacre that Shook the Empire. Despite it actually being the massacre to shake the british empire, the documentary maker was nonplussed to begin with,  but 5 minutes after visiting the scene of the massacre was prompted to declare that the British Empire in India was an exercise in institutionalised racism and sadistically cruel.
i thought that was a pretty mild statement myself, I would have used stronger words. For the most part British people think that the British empire was beneficial to humanity. Rhees Mog contents that the Amritsar massacre was but a tiny blot. Boris Johnson  in his biography of Churchill doesn't deem it necessary to even mention anything about the Famine of Bengal in 1943, a famine which Churchill's war cabinet's decisions exacerbated the effect of,  to the tune of 3m dead.
But let's get back to wonderfull Blighty and and their attitude to the now young mother, (or is it ex mother)  who can be condemned because of a few edited newspaper and tv accounts, and who you now say is not entitled to present her side of the story to a instituted  court of law,  but let it be trial by daily Mail??
I say old chaps, is that how you play cricket?

Quite the rant - you'll have to excuse me, I fail to see what Churchill or indeed British atrocities back whenever have to do with this. Bit ironic considering you seem to be defending a woman who cleared off to join a group / nation in the Middle East that made atrocity their MO.

Don't really care how the British Govt. spend their money, that's their money to spend how they wish I suppose.

But if you hop on a plane to join Al-Baghdadi and his new state, you can't have your cake and eat it. It seems pretty open and shut here. Again, legally that's for better minds than me to argue - but certainly I think most 'normal' people will hold the same opinion here, she's went off to join a state which essentially massacred anyone but her own. She made her bed.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Keyser soze on April 16, 2019, 10:11:10 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 16, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Main Street on April 16, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.

Legally yes. Morally, Politically....Socially....I'm not so sure.
Yes you Brits or west Brits are really concerned about the possible use or misuse  of Brit exchequer money.
Did you know the KKK was formed and grew because Of Negro Rape, Assault & Murder, well so the KKK claimed that sort of thing happened, not unlike ultra right propaganda against Muslims today.

Meanwhile the 100th anniversary of the Amritsar massacre was acknowledged  to some extent by a minor UK tv channel (CH 4) on Saturday in a documentary named The Massacre that Shook the Empire. Despite it actually being the massacre to shake the british empire, the documentary maker was nonplussed to begin with,  but 5 minutes after visiting the scene of the massacre was prompted to declare that the British Empire in India was an exercise in institutionalised racism and sadistically cruel.
i thought that was a pretty mild statement myself, I would have used stronger words. For the most part British people think that the British empire was beneficial to humanity. Rhees Mog contents that the Amritsar massacre was but a tiny blot. Boris Johnson  in his biography of Churchill doesn't deem it necessary to even mention anything about the Famine of Bengal in 1943, a famine which Churchill's war cabinet's decisions exacerbated the effect of,  to the tune of 3m dead.
But let's get back to wonderfull Blighty and and their attitude to the now young mother, (or is it ex mother)  who can be condemned because of a few edited newspaper and tv accounts, and who you now say is not entitled to present her side of the story to a instituted  court of law,  but let it be trial by daily Mail??
I say old chaps, is that how you play cricket?

Quite the rant - you'll have to excuse me, I fail to see what Churchill or indeed British atrocities back whenever have to do with this. Bit ironic considering you seem to be defending a woman who cleared off to join a group / nation in the Middle East that made atrocity their MO.

Don't really care how the British Govt. spend their money, that's their money to spend how they wish I suppose.

But if you hop on a plane to join Al-Baghdadi and his new state, you can't have your cake and eat it. It seems pretty open and shut here. Again, legally that's for better minds than me to argue - but certainly I think most 'normal' people will hold the same opinion here, she's went off to join a state which essentially massacred anyone but her own. She made her bed.

Quite right GOTB, things like access to legal aid should be decided on moral and political grounds rather than this legal entitlement nonsense.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Baile Brigín 2 on April 16, 2019, 10:28:14 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 16, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Main Street on April 16, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.

Legally yes. Morally, Politically....Socially....I'm not so sure.
Yes you Brits or west Brits are really concerned about the possible use or misuse  of Brit exchequer money.
Did you know the KKK was formed and grew because Of Negro Rape, Assault & Murder, well so the KKK claimed that sort of thing happened, not unlike ultra right propaganda against Muslims today.

Meanwhile the 100th anniversary of the Amritsar massacre was acknowledged  to some extent by a minor UK tv channel (CH 4) on Saturday in a documentary named The Massacre that Shook the Empire. Despite it actually being the massacre to shake the british empire, the documentary maker was nonplussed to begin with,  but 5 minutes after visiting the scene of the massacre was prompted to declare that the British Empire in India was an exercise in institutionalised racism and sadistically cruel.
i thought that was a pretty mild statement myself, I would have used stronger words. For the most part British people think that the British empire was beneficial to humanity. Rhees Mog contents that the Amritsar massacre was but a tiny blot. Boris Johnson  in his biography of Churchill doesn't deem it necessary to even mention anything about the Famine of Bengal in 1943, a famine which Churchill's war cabinet's decisions exacerbated the effect of,  to the tune of 3m dead.
But let's get back to wonderfull Blighty and and their attitude to the now young mother, (or is it ex mother)  who can be condemned because of a few edited newspaper and tv accounts, and who you now say is not entitled to present her side of the story to a instituted  court of law,  but let it be trial by daily Mail??
I say old chaps, is that how you play cricket?

Quite the rant - you'll have to excuse me, I fail to see what Churchill or indeed British atrocities back whenever have to do with this. Bit ironic considering you seem to be defending a woman who cleared off to join a group / nation in the Middle East that made atrocity their MO.

Don't really care how the British Govt. spend their money, that's their money to spend how they wish I suppose.

But if you hop on a plane to join Al-Baghdadi and his new state, you can't have your cake and eat it. It seems pretty open and shut here. Again, legally that's for better minds than me to argue - but certainly I think most 'normal' people will hold the same opinion here, she's went off to join a state which essentially massacred anyone but her own. She made her bed.

And how do you prove she isnt entitled to legal aid?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on April 16, 2019, 10:47:41 AM
Quote from: Baile Brigín 2 on April 16, 2019, 10:28:14 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 16, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Main Street on April 16, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.

Legally yes. Morally, Politically....Socially....I'm not so sure.
Yes you Brits or west Brits are really concerned about the possible use or misuse  of Brit exchequer money.
Did you know the KKK was formed and grew because Of Negro Rape, Assault & Murder, well so the KKK claimed that sort of thing happened, not unlike ultra right propaganda against Muslims today.

Meanwhile the 100th anniversary of the Amritsar massacre was acknowledged  to some extent by a minor UK tv channel (CH 4) on Saturday in a documentary named The Massacre that Shook the Empire. Despite it actually being the massacre to shake the british empire, the documentary maker was nonplussed to begin with,  but 5 minutes after visiting the scene of the massacre was prompted to declare that the British Empire in India was an exercise in institutionalised racism and sadistically cruel.
i thought that was a pretty mild statement myself, I would have used stronger words. For the most part British people think that the British empire was beneficial to humanity. Rhees Mog contents that the Amritsar massacre was but a tiny blot. Boris Johnson  in his biography of Churchill doesn't deem it necessary to even mention anything about the Famine of Bengal in 1943, a famine which Churchill's war cabinet's decisions exacerbated the effect of,  to the tune of 3m dead.
But let's get back to wonderfull Blighty and and their attitude to the now young mother, (or is it ex mother)  who can be condemned because of a few edited newspaper and tv accounts, and who you now say is not entitled to present her side of the story to a instituted  court of law,  but let it be trial by daily Mail??
I say old chaps, is that how you play cricket?

Quite the rant - you'll have to excuse me, I fail to see what Churchill or indeed British atrocities back whenever have to do with this. Bit ironic considering you seem to be defending a woman who cleared off to join a group / nation in the Middle East that made atrocity their MO.

Don't really care how the British Govt. spend their money, that's their money to spend how they wish I suppose.

But if you hop on a plane to join Al-Baghdadi and his new state, you can't have your cake and eat it. It seems pretty open and shut here. Again, legally that's for better minds than me to argue - but certainly I think most 'normal' people will hold the same opinion here, she's went off to join a state which essentially massacred anyone but her own. She made her bed.

And how do you prove she isnt entitled to legal aid?

Never said she wasn't entitled to it legally - I said I wasn't sure if she was entitled to it morally, socially or politically.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnnycool on April 16, 2019, 10:59:15 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 16, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Main Street on April 16, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.

Legally yes. Morally, Politically....Socially....I'm not so sure.
Yes you Brits or west Brits are really concerned about the possible use or misuse  of Brit exchequer money.
Did you know the KKK was formed and grew because Of Negro Rape, Assault & Murder, well so the KKK claimed that sort of thing happened, not unlike ultra right propaganda against Muslims today.

Meanwhile the 100th anniversary of the Amritsar massacre was acknowledged  to some extent by a minor UK tv channel (CH 4) on Saturday in a documentary named The Massacre that Shook the Empire. Despite it actually being the massacre to shake the british empire, the documentary maker was nonplussed to begin with,  but 5 minutes after visiting the scene of the massacre was prompted to declare that the British Empire in India was an exercise in institutionalised racism and sadistically cruel.
i thought that was a pretty mild statement myself, I would have used stronger words. For the most part British people think that the British empire was beneficial to humanity. Rhees Mog contents that the Amritsar massacre was but a tiny blot. Boris Johnson  in his biography of Churchill doesn't deem it necessary to even mention anything about the Famine of Bengal in 1943, a famine which Churchill's war cabinet's decisions exacerbated the effect of,  to the tune of 3m dead.
But let's get back to wonderfull Blighty and and their attitude to the now young mother, (or is it ex mother)  who can be condemned because of a few edited newspaper and tv accounts, and who you now say is not entitled to present her side of the story to a instituted  court of law,  but let it be trial by daily Mail??
I say old chaps, is that how you play cricket?

Quite the rant - you'll have to excuse me, I fail to see what Churchill or indeed British atrocities back whenever have to do with this. Bit ironic considering you seem to be defending a woman who cleared off to join a group / nation in the Middle East that made atrocity their MO.

Don't really care how the British Govt. spend their money, that's their money to spend how they wish I suppose.

But if you hop on a plane to join Al-Baghdadi and his new state, you can't have your cake and eat it. It seems pretty open and shut here. Again, legally that's for better minds than me to argue - but certainly I think most 'normal' people will hold the same opinion here, she's went off to join a state which essentially massacred anyone but her own. She made her bed.

The Manchester bomber spent a bit of time in Libya and Syria before coming back to the UK and no issues. Ever wonder why?
The then Home Secretary Teasie May turned a blind eye to these extremists going over to these places and joining extremist groups as they were doing the Wests evil work in deposing of Gaddafi and attempting to overthrow Assad.

They're all pawns but the moral outrage is only a concern when they evil deeds are carried out in the West.

The West are reaping what they sow I'm afraid and innocents will die as usual.


Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Hardy on April 16, 2019, 01:44:12 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 16, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Main Street on April 16, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.

Legally yes. Morally, Politically....Socially....I'm not so sure.
Yes you Brits or west Brits are really concerned about the possible use or misuse  of Brit exchequer money.
Did you know the KKK was formed and grew because Of Negro Rape, Assault & Murder, well so the KKK claimed that sort of thing happened, not unlike ultra right propaganda against Muslims today.

Meanwhile the 100th anniversary of the Amritsar massacre was acknowledged  to some extent by a minor UK tv channel (CH 4) on Saturday in a documentary named The Massacre that Shook the Empire. Despite it actually being the massacre to shake the british empire, the documentary maker was nonplussed to begin with,  but 5 minutes after visiting the scene of the massacre was prompted to declare that the British Empire in India was an exercise in institutionalised racism and sadistically cruel.
i thought that was a pretty mild statement myself, I would have used stronger words. For the most part British people think that the British empire was beneficial to humanity. Rhees Mog contents that the Amritsar massacre was but a tiny blot. Boris Johnson  in his biography of Churchill doesn't deem it necessary to even mention anything about the Famine of Bengal in 1943, a famine which Churchill's war cabinet's decisions exacerbated the effect of,  to the tune of 3m dead.
But let's get back to wonderfull Blighty and and their attitude to the now young mother, (or is it ex mother)  who can be condemned because of a few edited newspaper and tv accounts, and who you now say is not entitled to present her side of the story to a instituted  court of law,  but let it be trial by daily Mail??
I say old chaps, is that how you play cricket?

Quite the rant - you'll have to excuse me, I fail to see what Churchill or indeed British atrocities back whenever have to do with this. Bit ironic considering you seem to be defending a woman who cleared off to join a group / nation in the Middle East that made atrocity their MO.

Don't really care how the British Govt. spend their money, that's their money to spend how they wish I suppose.

But if you hop on a plane to join Al-Baghdadi and his new state, you can't have your cake and eat it. It seems pretty open and shut here. Again, legally that's for better minds than me to argue - but certainly I think most 'normal' people will hold the same opinion here, she's went off to join a state which essentially massacred anyone but her own. She made her bed.

That's grand then. Let random members of the public, no - say even a majority of the public, using 'information' provided by such august journals as the Sun and Daily Mail decide which cases are 'open and shut' and so leave the courts to decide on the tricky cases (as also determined by said majority, deeply knowledgeable and informed public opinion). Major savings to be made if we introduced sensible reforms like this, especially in this information age where reputable commentators by the million are available on social media to expedite these decisions.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: playwiththewind1st on April 16, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
You might have thought that actually being resident in a country might be a condition for getting legal aid. Begum f****s away off to Syria; Jack Shepherd goes OTR to Georgia, but both are entitled to legal aid, in absentia? Maybe Begum should ask Bashar al-Assad for a few quid in legal aid & see what the answer is.
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: GetOverTheBar on April 16, 2019, 01:53:15 PM
Quote from: Hardy on April 16, 2019, 01:44:12 PM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 16, 2019, 09:38:03 AM
Quote from: Main Street on April 16, 2019, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on April 15, 2019, 08:56:54 PM
Quote from: GJL on April 15, 2019, 07:34:09 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 15, 2019, 06:36:44 PM
See Begum is getting legal aid now, to fight the decision to strip her of her British citizenship. Hasn't been about for four years or so but, sure, let's throw bucketloads of money at her, to uphold her 'rights'. World has definitely gone mad.

She is as entitled to legal aid as you or I. If she was not she would not be getting it.

Legally yes. Morally, Politically....Socially....I'm not so sure.
Yes you Brits or west Brits are really concerned about the possible use or misuse  of Brit exchequer money.
Did you know the KKK was formed and grew because Of Negro Rape, Assault & Murder, well so the KKK claimed that sort of thing happened, not unlike ultra right propaganda against Muslims today.

Meanwhile the 100th anniversary of the Amritsar massacre was acknowledged  to some extent by a minor UK tv channel (CH 4) on Saturday in a documentary named The Massacre that Shook the Empire. Despite it actually being the massacre to shake the british empire, the documentary maker was nonplussed to begin with,  but 5 minutes after visiting the scene of the massacre was prompted to declare that the British Empire in India was an exercise in institutionalised racism and sadistically cruel.
i thought that was a pretty mild statement myself, I would have used stronger words. For the most part British people think that the British empire was beneficial to humanity. Rhees Mog contents that the Amritsar massacre was but a tiny blot. Boris Johnson  in his biography of Churchill doesn't deem it necessary to even mention anything about the Famine of Bengal in 1943, a famine which Churchill's war cabinet's decisions exacerbated the effect of,  to the tune of 3m dead.
But let's get back to wonderfull Blighty and and their attitude to the now young mother, (or is it ex mother)  who can be condemned because of a few edited newspaper and tv accounts, and who you now say is not entitled to present her side of the story to a instituted  court of law,  but let it be trial by daily Mail??
I say old chaps, is that how you play cricket?

Quite the rant - you'll have to excuse me, I fail to see what Churchill or indeed British atrocities back whenever have to do with this. Bit ironic considering you seem to be defending a woman who cleared off to join a group / nation in the Middle East that made atrocity their MO.

Don't really care how the British Govt. spend their money, that's their money to spend how they wish I suppose.

But if you hop on a plane to join Al-Baghdadi and his new state, you can't have your cake and eat it. It seems pretty open and shut here. Again, legally that's for better minds than me to argue - but certainly I think most 'normal' people will hold the same opinion here, she's went off to join a state which essentially massacred anyone but her own. She made her bed.

That's grand then. Let random members of the public, no - say even a majority of the public, using 'information' provided by such august journals as the Sun and Daily Mail decide which cases are 'open and shut' and so leave the courts to decide on the tricky cases (as also determined by said majority, deeply knowledgeable and informed public opinion). Major savings to be made if we introduced sensible reforms like this, especially in this information age where reputable commentators by the million are available on social media to expedite these decisions.

What have The Sun or The Daily Mail got to do with my opinion on the matter?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: Denn Forever on April 16, 2019, 01:58:03 PM
QuoteWhat have The Sun or The Daily Mail got to do with my opinion on the matter?

Their percieved right wing bias?
Title: Re: Islamic Jihadists ISIS
Post by: johnnycool on April 16, 2019, 02:00:04 PM
Quote from: playwiththewind1st on April 16, 2019, 01:49:04 PM
You might have thought that actually being resident in a country might be a condition for getting legal aid. Begum f****s away off to Syria; Jack Shepherd goes OTR to Georgia, but both are entitled to legal aid, in absentia? Maybe Begum should ask Bashar al-Assad for a few quid in legal aid & see what the answer is.

Valid point on Jack Shepherd.

White boy takes off after killing a girl in a speed boat and being found guilty. I don't recall any moral outrage or TV phone ins, questions on Question Time, Politicians jumping all over it, I wonder why?