The IRISH RUGBY thread

Started by Donnellys Hollow, October 27, 2009, 05:26:16 PM

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thewobbler

I would think that Neil Francis is a storyteller more than an analyst. There's no harm in that, and sometimes it's more enjoyable.

But the "parc mentality" and the Marseilles weren't the reasons why Ireland managed one win at home vs France in the 80s and 90s. Ireland were beaten before they ran out onto Lansdowne vs the French too. As you'd expect when amateurs take on semi professionals.

Then professionalism tilted the balance.

Sweet nothing to with Parc des Prince.

seafoid

I was driving from Midleton to Dublin during that match and I had to pull in after the second try. It was historic and everyone in the pub acknowledged it.
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

sid waddell

Quote from: thewobbler on February 15, 2021, 05:13:14 PM
I would think that Neil Francis is a storyteller more than an analyst. There's no harm in that, and sometimes it's more enjoyable.

But the "parc mentality" and the Marseilles weren't the reasons why Ireland managed one win at home vs France in the 80s and 90s. Ireland were beaten before they ran out onto Lansdowne vs the French too. As you'd expect when amateurs take on semi professionals.

Then professionalism tilted the balance.

Sweet nothing to with Parc des Prince.
But that would be to dismiss the role of psychology in sport

thewobbler

Not dismissing sports psychology as much as nostalgia.

Sports psychology has a role to play in separating evenly matched teams. But when - in rugby - one team is evidently superior in terms of size, conditioning, speed and handling, then it's only marginally more relevant than if there's a full moon.

See the margin of Ireland's victories against third and fourth tier nations since 2000 as evidence.

Estimator

Think this right:
Since the start of the 6 nations Wales have won four Grand Slams. Ireland have two, same as England.
Since the start of the 6 nations, England have appeared in 3 World Cup finals.
Wales and Ireland haven't appeared in one.
Ulster League Champions 2009

sid waddell

Quote from: thewobbler on February 15, 2021, 06:36:08 PM
Not dismissing sports psychology as much as nostalgia.

Sports psychology has a role to play in separating evenly matched teams. But when - in rugby - one team is evidently superior in terms of size, conditioning, speed and handling, then it's only marginally more relevant than if there's a full moon.

See the margin of Ireland's victories against third and fourth tier nations since 2000 as evidence.
Psychology has a role in all sorts of situations, including where the teams are not evenly matched in terms of quality

And the setting for a match and the sort of crowd present can very much affect that

It does seem quite coincidental that an Irish team which in 1998 was as poor as any previous which had been slaughtered in Paris suddenly got within two points of double Grand Slam-wining France when they played in a different stadium to what they were used

Ireland had plenty of good teams between 1974 and 1996 (well, 1985) by the way and pretty much all of them came away from the Parc with their tails between their legs

Ireland got pretty close to beating France several times at home in that barren period - 1985, 1987, 1989, 1991

The Stade De France has always been an inferior home ground for the French rugby team to the Parc and their record there is not that great



thewobbler

It's a heartwarming narrative in many ways.

But it's also romantic folly beyond words to believe that years of conditioning, months of practice drills, weeks of tactical planning and days of mental tuning, can be undone by 10 minutes in the company of large men passionately bellowing a song.

Ireland's change in fortunes were not owed to the coincidence of France moving stadium.

They were owed to 5 years of a large gap being narrowed through professionalism, and the removal of parochial selections by committee. This was highlighted by Ulster having the physical and tactical prowess to beat 3 French teams en route to winning the Heineken. The gap between them, Munster and Leinster was negligible. Then the cherry on top, the arrival of Ireland's greatest ever player as a world force.

No coincidences. Nothing even close to a coincidence. To beat France they had to arrive at somewhere between semi professional and professional levels, and this was eminently achievable through conditioning.


Which is why that day, although a wonderful one in Ireland's sporting history, wasn't a shock. Maybe a pleasant surprise to the disbelievers. But not a shock. Because everyone knew before the ball was kicked that Ireland had a chance. Not because of how the French anthem was delivered, but because the gap had narrowed to nothing.

sid waddell

OK then, psychology actually has nothing to do with sport after all

thewobbler

Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2021, 08:23:53 PM
OK then, psychology actually has nothing to do with sport after all

No that's not what I said. I said clearly, very clearly, that it is important when teams are evenly matched.

It's written there above. You read it.

sid waddell

Well between 1973 and 1994, Ireland played England 22 times in the championship

Ireland won 11, England won 11

So Ireland and England were pretty well matched throughout that time - Ireland won 4 times at Twickenham in that time

Yet in that 1973-1994 period, England went to the Parc Des Princes and won 6 times and drew another 1

Ireland had a 100% losing record at the Parc

Tell me again how psychology doesn't come into it

England weren't afraid of going to the Parc, Ireland were

As any Irish rugby fan knows, the Parc Des Princes was a graveyard for Irish hopes


trailer

Granted I'm not a the Rugby stato you guys might be but I can't remember Ireland beating anyone bar an odd win against Scotland or Wales in Lansdowne. Ireland always lost. Professionalism definitely gave us a better chance.

sid waddell

Another weird one is that Wales beat England at home in 1985, 1987, 1989 and 1993

Yet in all of those years they lost at home to Ireland

Cardiff was a graveyard for England, yet Ireland thrived there

Murrayfield was for a long time a bogey for the French, they always seemed to lose there




sid waddell

Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2021, 08:37:56 PM
Granted I'm not a the Rugby stato you guys might be but I can't remember Ireland beating anyone bar an odd win against Scotland or Wales in Lansdowne. Ireland always lost. Professionalism definitely gave us a better chance.
We didn't beat Scotland from 1988 to 2000, we had one draw against them in 1994

Ireland won every match but one in Cardiff from 1985 to 2003 inclusive - the odd one out being a draw in 1991, then won again in 2007, 2009 and 2013

Wales usually won here though - 1984, 1986, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998 and 2000, we won in 1990 and 1996


trailer

Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2021, 08:44:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2021, 08:37:56 PM
Granted I'm not a the Rugby stato you guys might be but I can't remember Ireland beating anyone bar an odd win against Scotland or Wales in Lansdowne. Ireland always lost. Professionalism definitely gave us a better chance.
We didn't beat Scotland from 1988 to 2000, we had one draw against them in 1994

Ireland won every match but one in Cardiff from 1985 to 2003 inclusive - the odd one out being a draw in 1991, then won again in 2007, 2009 and 2013

Wales usually won here though - 1984, 1986, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998 and 2000, we won in 1990 and 1996

I just seem to remember them getting beat a lot.

sid waddell

Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2021, 08:57:06 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on February 15, 2021, 08:44:40 PM
Quote from: trailer on February 15, 2021, 08:37:56 PM
Granted I'm not a the Rugby stato you guys might be but I can't remember Ireland beating anyone bar an odd win against Scotland or Wales in Lansdowne. Ireland always lost. Professionalism definitely gave us a better chance.
We didn't beat Scotland from 1988 to 2000, we had one draw against them in 1994

Ireland won every match but one in Cardiff from 1985 to 2003 inclusive - the odd one out being a draw in 1991, then won again in 2007, 2009 and 2013

Wales usually won here though - 1984, 1986, 1988, 1992, 1994, 1998 and 2000, we won in 1990 and 1996

I just seem to remember them getting beat a lot.
A good year was avoiding a whitewash

We were only whitewashed twice in the 90s, - 1992 and 1998

Haven't suffered one since, we will this year though, I don't really count Italy, although I wouldn't even say that's a gimme