The Offical Glasgow Celtic thread

[From the Bunker]

Where would Rangers fit into all of this. As good as any Premiership side or a mid table Championship side?

[Angelo]

Where would Rangers fit into all of this. As good as any Premiership side or a mid table Championship side?

Celtic have a much better playing squad than Rangers. I'd put Rangers on a similar level to Sheffield United talent wise.

[From the Bunker]

Where would Rangers fit into all of this. As good as any Premiership side or a mid table Championship side?

Celtic have a much better playing squad than Rangers. I'd put Rangers on a similar level to Sheffield United talent wise.

Where would you put Arsenal - Better/Equal/worse?

[Angelo]

Where would Rangers fit into all of this. As good as any Premiership side or a mid table Championship side?

Celtic have a much better playing squad than Rangers. I'd put Rangers on a similar level to Sheffield United talent wise.

Where would you put Arsenal - Better/Equal/worse?

Clearly Arsenal have much better players than Celtic but outside of Liverpool/Man City/Chelsea/Man Utd/Arsenal/Spurs, I don't think anything in the EPL is much superior to Celtic.

[MoChara]

https://theathletic.co.uk/2024690/2020/08/27/celtic-champions-league-edouard-ntcham/


Celtic, the idea-less football team. A comically one-dimensional disaster

By Kieran Devlin Aug 27, 2020 49

It's Groundhog Day.

Baffling team selections and formations that upset the side's balance and cohesion. Again. Hesitant and self-defeating game management. Again. Zero sense that the game plan had been designed to exploit the opposition's weaknesses and accommodate their strengths. Again.

It becomes tiresome writing the same thing over and over, and I assume you good people are getting bored of reading it.

First, there was Cluj in last season's Champions League third-round qualifier at Celtic Park. Neil Lennon started Callum McGregor at left-back because he both wanted to get as many "technicians" into the starting XI as possible, and because he believed Boli Bolingoli — the club's new left-back — wasn't ready. Cluj won 4-3, with their first goal arriving through chasms of space between McGregor, the unnatural left full-back, and Jozo Simunovic at centre-back. The decision to play McGregor there visibly unsettled the balance of the team and they were evidently unsure about what spaces they should occupy, what runs they should make, and when they should press.

Second, there was Copenhagen in last season's Europa League last 32 at Celtic Park in February. Torn between starting with the 4-2-3-1 that was so successful in the group stages and the 3-5-2 which had revitalised his side after the winter break, Lennon opted for an in-between where Kristoffer Ajer, nominally at right-back, would tuck inside sometimes as a right-sided-centre-back. However, this wasn't as simple as Celtic switching to a back three in possession, or vice versa. It seemed to depend on instinct and the impulses of players around Ajer to adapt to the ever-changing formation.

Once again, this halfway house visibly unsettled the balance of the team and they were evidently unsure about what spaces they should occupy, what runs they should make, and when they should press. Celtic lost 3-1.

Then came Ferencvaros on Wednesday night in the Champions League second qualifying round. Third time's a charm? No chance. This was to be Celtic's earliest exit from the competition since 2005-06 (in Gordon Strachan's debut season, a 5-4 aggregate defeat to Artmedia Bratislava). At least Celtic won the home game in that tie.

Three of Celtic's recognised strikers — Odsonne Edouard, Leigh Griffiths, and Albian Ajeti — were deemed not fully match-fit enough to start against Ferencvaros, which left Patryk Klimala. Klimala was benched and instead, Celtic started in a 4-6-0 with Ryan Christie as a false nine.

Remarkably, post-match, Lennon claimed the game was "easier than I thought it was going to be". It was an ill-judged comment given the stakes of the game but Celtic did dominate the number of chances and possession statistics. They had 16 shots in the first half and 28 in total. They had 70 per cent possession. Instat recorded that they had an xG of 2.3 to Ferencvaros's 0.3.

But basic stats disguise what was an uncontrolled and imbalanced performance. Defensively, Ferencvaros cut Celtic's press open by simple passing triangles — and then had yards of space to run into against a slack, backpedalling Celtic defence. Likewise, given Ferencvaros's principle tactic is countering with pace, it didn't seem wise to commit nine bodies forward and leave Christopher Jullien, the slowest centre-back, as the main man left behind.

Playing without a striker can work offensively but it needs everyone on the pitch to readjust their games, with a clear system imposed by the coaching staff in how best to create chances without relying on the traditional out ball and natural 18-yard-box positioning of the forward. Yet for the majority of the game, Celtic resorted to shots from distance — only nine of those 28 shots were on target — or high crosses into the box, despite playing without that outright striker.

There was little adaptation to the striker-less reality beyond even more speculative shots from distance; the hallmarks of an idea-less football team.

Despite the system clearly backfiring throughout the game, there wasn't a substitution or change in tactics until the final 15 minutes, when Celtic were 2-1 down. A striker finally arrived in Ajeti. There were only two subs made all game as Celtic whimpered to defeat, with Klimala remaining on the bench.

A sideshow to the main event of Christie's false-nine positioning was the decision to play Hatem Elhamed instead of Jeremie Frimpong at right-back. It's a decision not without legitimacy, as Elhamed is a more physical presence than Frimpong and with more European experience.

However, even superficial advance scouting of Ferencvaros reveals that they're a counter-attacking team with a very quick left-sided forward in Tokmac Nguen. Dropping Celtic's quickest and most naturally gifted right-back backfired, with Elhamed miles out of position in the lead-up to the corner which resulted in the opening goal and gallingly failing to stop Nguen in the second goal because of his lack of pace.

In 15-minute spells either side of half-time, Celtic actually played some lovely stuff, hitting the bar from an Olivier Ntcham volley and having an armhair-length offside decision go against them when Moi Elyounoussi dinked the ball into the net. Celtic's attacking players were a level above Ferencvaros's but the Hungarian champions had a clear game plan, executed it well, got slightly fortuitous at times, and won.

For the third time in Europe in less than 12 months, these unnecessary tweaks and bold selections visibly unsettled the balance of the team and they were evidently unsure about what spaces they should occupy, what runs they should make, and when they should press.

What happens now? The repercussions from an early exit will surely be more keenly felt than last year. The pandemic has already put a strain on Celtic's finances, as it has on everyone's, but a third consecutive season without Champions League football would compound this.

By reaching the group stage, Celtic would earn £14.1 million immediately. Compiling other earnings such as television revenue, as well as win and draw bonuses — £2.5 million and £830,000, respectively — it's expected that income would nearly double. That level of revenue would, realistically, be the difference between one key player leaving Celtic this window, and two or even three.

The outcome isn't just disastrous financially. Being knocked out in just the second round of qualification signals regression, never mind stagnation, for Celtic's most valuable playing assets.

The Athletic understands that Champions League was hugely important for Edouard. Whether or not it's the decisive factor in the 22-year-old staying or lobbying for a move away is uncertain but with his long-term ambitions involving a place in the France senior set-up, another season limited to Europa League and domestic Scottish football hardly appeals to a player of his burgeoning reputation. Premier League clubs, including Crystal Palace, will see Celtic's elimination as reason to step up their bid to sign him, potentially at a cheaper price too.

Ajer, who had been benched for the two games prior to Wednesday night, has been subject to attention across the continent, including AC Milan, and will probably move on this summer if Celtic receive a fee they deem acceptable. Similarly, it's understood that Olivier Ntcham, who has attracted interest from England as well as his home nation in France, is also available at the right price.

Lennon bluntly stated post-match that: "If there are players who don't want to be here, just leave". That might well be the case soon enough but it'll leave Celtic far worse off for it.

The truth is that the players from outside the UK, with no longstanding attachment to Celtic, don't really care about 10 in a row. Their careers are short and they want to make the most of them. They care about Europe, about the Champions League, with the platform, challenge and spectacle it offers.

There's been an uneasy, implicit alliance between these players and the club, in that Celtic would provide them with a platform of European football — more specifically, Champions League football — and in return, they'd help deliver the club domestic success. Three years and counting without that platform and that alliance is looking pretty brittle.

There's a wider debate to be had around the club's long-term strategy, about whether it's both structured and run with the ambition to progress on the pitch — which can only really be meaningfully signposted by progress in Europe — or whether it's content with attempting to consolidate its domestic dominance in an endless cycle.

There are other, smaller contributing factors. The Bolingoli situation, in which he broke COVID-19 protocols to fly to Spain for a night and back without telling anyone at the club, and almost shutting down Scottish football as a result, has upset the dynamic in the dressing room. It also meant that the players lost two games' worth of match fitness with both the St Mirren and Aberdeen matches being postponed.

Similarly, Leigh Griffiths, who became a crucial option for Celtic in the second half of last season in particular, has consistently struggled to maintain fitness since training for Premiership clubs resumed in June, and was publicly called out by Lennon in July for not keeping himself fit over lockdown after he was deemed not fit enough to travel to the club's pre-season camp in France. The club will have planned ahead for this season with Griffiths as either a support to or complement for Edouard, and this strategy has crumbled.

But irrespective of the club's structure and strategy, and the other ongoing side-plots, that group of players should have won on Wednesday night — and comfortably.

Celtic have spent roughly £32 million on transfers over the last 14 months: an extraordinary outlay for a team in Celtic's relative position. For all the many other criticisms you could level at the Celtic hierarchy, a failure to invest in this team isn't one of them.

Stats website Transfermarkt, though using an imperfect algorithm which tends to undervalue players, calculates the value of Ferencvaros's starting XI as less than Edouard  alone (£13.05 million to £13.5 million). Celtic's expenditure in wages gulfs Ferencvaros — as it did Cluj's and Copenhagen's.

This is an expensively-assembled, individually-talented group of players that are now routinely performing worse than the sum of their parts. When confidence isn't flying and individual ability isn't telling from game to game, as it was for the vast majority of last season, there's clearly no underlying system to stabilise them.

No sense of defensive or midfield shape, no passing patterns to break down stubborn defences or control the tempo of games. Their defensive organisation is sloppy and they're reliant on shots from range and aimless crosses when their creative players aren't flourishing. They don't look well-drilled. They don't look like they can adapt to different in-game scenarios. They look comically one-dimensional.

Earlier this summer, the club asked fans to pay full price for their virtual season tickets this season, on the premise that to continue building on the club's success, they needed fans — many of whom have suffered salary cuts, been furloughed or lost their jobs during the pandemic — to dig deep into their pockets in the most difficult of circumstances. Added "value" was vaguely promised for a future date.

In a way, this was delivered to season ticket holders last night as they had the misery of the Ferencvaros winner delayed by a precious few minutes because the £650 streaming service was lagging. Added value indeed.

[illdecide]

Angelo no harm to you but u are so blinded by the hatred/dislike for NL it's not even funny. You think that changing Celtic manager is going to change everything? you are wrong. I've defended NL so many times and to be fair i didn't on Wed nite as it was impossible to defend but you think any manager is going to come in and have Celtic playing like Bayern Munich. Every single debate you have here no matter what your asked about and your answer is sack NL. You've a short memory if you can't cast it back to some of the managers Celtic have had over the last 2 decades. BR was good and you were correct in saying that he got half decent players playing well but you know what even the mighty BR had lost his magic in the end and his charm was not working the same as it was in his first year, it deteriorated greatly each passing year and he knew himself it was time to run before he got found out too (not to mention running for the extra coin). Ronnie D, John Barnes, Tony Mowbray etc that's just some of the managers Celtic have had...enough said.

The sad fact is we are a feeder club now to EPL clubs who make 20 times what we make and the worst part of it all is this generation of young people whether it be our own kids or young professional footballers are spoilt brats and if they don't feel like playing for the club they'll not play and if their agent or parents tell them they can get more money elsewhere then they're away. No loyalties anymore, no morals just spoilt brats and that's they way things are now and it wouldn't matter one bit who was managing them...

I think you are the one blinded on Lennon. It's not hatred, he's just not up to the job, did you read The Athletic article?

Deila won two titles in two years and was sacked/walked away. Barnes had to deal with a dominant Rangers side and a leg break for his star man and lasted a few months. Mowbray's tenure was a disaster but he only lasted 5 months against a Rangers side who would also capture the title the following season from Neil Lennon.

I see Lennon has now flip flopped on throwing his players under the bus Wednesday night.

I will kinda agree with you on that, I was a b it OTT about him TBH but i can't defend him this time and i too was not happy with his performance not just tonight but in other games too. I just know there are too many bog standard managers out there and getting rid of NL and going for one of these other guys who had a lucky run with some Championship club is not the answer for a club like Celtic

[dublin7]

Where would Rangers fit into all of this. As good as any Premiership side or a mid table Championship side?

Celtic have a much better playing squad than Rangers. I'd put Rangers on a similar level to Sheffield United talent wise.

Where would you put Arsenal - Better/Equal/worse?

Clearly Arsenal have much better players than Celtic but outside of Liverpool/Man City/Chelsea/Man Utd/Arsenal/Spurs, I don't think anything in the EPL is much superior to Celtic.

That's hilarious. You ridicule Burnley/Sheffield Utd for example and you naively think Celtic would easily finish in top half of the EPL. Sheffield Utd and Burnley for example have a back 4 and goalkeeper that are better than anything Celtic have.

You criticised John Egan previously, yet he and his colleagues have shown they are good enough to deal with some of the best forwards on a weekly basis in the EPL.

Celtic have a poor back 4 but get away with it as they are far superior to most opponents in the SPL. In Europe when the standard of opposition improves they get found out. They are being heavily linked with Shame Duffy at the moment. He would go from being the 3rd best centre half at Brighton to Celtic's best centre half. That should tell you everything

[smelmoth]

Is the truth here just simply that Scottish football is pretty poor? The squads are stocked with players who's baseline in England would be bottom third of the second tier. It is going to be exceptionally difficult, coming from that base to compete in Europe. Yes Celtic have more money that many of the sides they have come up short against. But that money is generated because an audience is prepared to follow a team dominating a poor quality league. So money yes but the key football facts don't change.

Against all of that nobody should be under any delusions on where Lennon sits as a manager. He was a free agent in the past after his first stint as Celtic manager. You could list the offers from England on the back of a postage stamp that was shrunk in the wash.

Not sure what reputation Stevie G thinks he is building in Scotland. He probably will get some English offers but I guess that will be based on his name as a player rather as a manager

Pretty much all of Celtic's starting XI would hold its own in the EPL.

None of Celtic's starting XI have proven themselves in the EPL so I don't know how you can believe that. Only Edouard is even been linked with a transfer to EPL or European side. Look at the teams who have knocked Celtic out of Europe in recent seasons: Cluj, Copenhagen, Ferenvaros. None of whom would be even close to European football heavyweights or contenders.

The new signing from West Ham was a flop and not good enough for the EPL so what does is say about Celtic/Scottish football if he's expected to be their new star striker?

The likes of Everton, Burnley, Southampton etc have all done appallingly in the Europa League in recent years.

The EPL is not the pinnacle of football no matter what you think.

Ajeti certainly looks like a donkey, he doesn't look good enough for Celtic from the little bits so far.

Copenhagen took Man Utd to extra time a couple of weeks back. Sevilla eeked past Cluj in the EL as well.

The main issue for Celtic right now is a manager who is not up to the job and a board who are trying to pinch pennies at every corner. I don't think the quality of the squad is too bad overall, they just need a better manager in who needs to be backed financially.

I don't anyone argued the EPL was the pinnacle of football

And yes the clubs you mentioned didn't do well in Europe in those seasons. In fact they tended to have poor seasons when they tried to combine Europe with domestic competition. But they are nowhere near the best dudes in EPL. Mid table in the seasons you describe. Celtic on the other hand have typically ran away with SPL. Indicating that the average standard in Scotland is piss poor.

The chances are that Lennon is a poor manager but it's very far from the situation that any Scottish team is a good manager from thriving in Europe

[Angelo]

Where would Rangers fit into all of this. As good as any Premiership side or a mid table Championship side?

Celtic have a much better playing squad than Rangers. I'd put Rangers on a similar level to Sheffield United talent wise.

Where would you put Arsenal - Better/Equal/worse?

Clearly Arsenal have much better players than Celtic but outside of Liverpool/Man City/Chelsea/Man Utd/Arsenal/Spurs, I don't think anything in the EPL is much superior to Celtic.

That's hilarious. You ridicule Burnley/Sheffield Utd for example and you naively think Celtic would easily finish in top half of the EPL. Sheffield Utd and Burnley for example have a back 4 and goalkeeper that are better than anything Celtic have.

You criticised John Egan previously, yet he and his colleagues have shown they are good enough to deal with some of the best forwards on a weekly basis in the EPL.

Celtic have a poor back 4 but get away with it as they are far superior to most opponents in the SPL. In Europe when the standard of opposition improves they get found out. They are being heavily linked with Shame Duffy at the moment. He would go from being the 3rd best centre half at Brighton to Celtic's best centre half. That should tell you everything

You're the one who is speaking naively.

You are making an awful lot of presumptive remarks about Celtic? Do you watch them much or do you just pompom whatever view the EPL fanzine you read promotes.

Celtic have better players than Sheffield United and Burnley on their books for me, there are plenty of other EPL teams that also have better players than them. The difference is that Sheffield United and Burnley are two well organised and drilled outfits who know what their job is. Celtic's biggest problem, as has been mentioned here at length is a management team that doesn't really have a clue what it's at and a board with zero ambition.

[smelmoth]

Is the truth here just simply that Scottish football is pretty poor? The squads are stocked with players who's baseline in England would be bottom third of the second tier. It is going to be exceptionally difficult, coming from that base to compete in Europe. Yes Celtic have more money that many of the sides they have come up short against. But that money is generated because an audience is prepared to follow a team dominating a poor quality league. So money yes but the key football facts don't change.

Against all of that nobody should be under any delusions on where Lennon sits as a manager. He was a free agent in the past after his first stint as Celtic manager. You could list the offers from England on the back of a postage stamp that was shrunk in the wash.

Not sure what reputation Stevie G thinks he is building in Scotland. He probably will get some English offers but I guess that will be based on his name as a player rather as a manager

Pretty much all of Celtic's starting XI would hold its own in the EPL.

None of Celtic's starting XI have proven themselves in the EPL so I don't know how you can believe that. Only Edouard is even been linked with a transfer to EPL or European side. Look at the teams who have knocked Celtic out of Europe in recent seasons: Cluj, Copenhagen, Ferenvaros. None of whom would be even close to European football heavyweights or contenders.

The new signing from West Ham was a flop and not good enough for the EPL so what does is say about Celtic/Scottish football if he's expected to be their new star striker?

The likes of Everton, Burnley, Southampton etc have all done appallingly in the Europa League in recent years.

The EPL is not the pinnacle of football no matter what you think.

Ajeti certainly looks like a donkey, he doesn't look good enough for Celtic from the little bits so far.

Copenhagen took Man Utd to extra time a couple of weeks back. Sevilla eeked past Cluj in the EL as well.

The main issue for Celtic right now is a manager who is not up to the job and a board who are trying to pinch pennies at every corner. I don't think the quality of the squad is too bad overall, they just need a better manager in who needs to be backed financially.

You might not rate the EPL, but the standard is way above Scottish football. You still haven't replied to several of us why you think Celtic are an EPL standard team and their players are just as good as those in the EPL?

Only Edouard has shown anything resembling the ability an EPL footballer. Smashing 4/5 goals past St Mirren and Hamilton every week doesn't automatically qualify team/players as superstars.

There's so much ignorance in that post you wouldn't know where to start.

Nobody is saying the SPL is of an equivalent standard to the EPL but I think Celtic would survive comfortably with a decent manager down there. You seem to vastly, vastly overstimate the quality of the EPL outside the top six teams.

What's the ability of an EPL footballer? A guy like Jamie Vardy who spends his career in the English lower leagues and non-league and comes to the EPL in the twilight of his career and hits a century of goals?

I've seen the EPL, there are plenty of Irish international players getting their game there that would get nowhere near a Celtic team - Stevens, Egan, Long, McGoldrick, Hourihane, Hendrick etc etc.

You seem to brainwashed into thinking the EPL is the be all and end all.

Edouard is good enough to play for a top 4 team down there. The rest of the Celtic first team starters and fringe players are more than capable of holding their own at that level when you look at some players clocking up regular appearances.

If we say Liverpool, City, United and Chelsea are the EPL top 4 I think the chances of Edouard getting a regular start with any of those sides I s precisely zero.
I think the chances of the Christie, McGregor, Brown etc thriving in any PL side is also zero. That seems to be view of the EPL managers and scouts also

[smelmoth]

Is the truth here just simply that Scottish football is pretty poor? The squads are stocked with players who's baseline in England would be bottom third of the second tier. It is going to be exceptionally difficult, coming from that base to compete in Europe. Yes Celtic have more money that many of the sides they have come up short against. But that money is generated because an audience is prepared to follow a team dominating a poor quality league. So money yes but the key football facts don't change.

Against all of that nobody should be under any delusions on where Lennon sits as a manager. He was a free agent in the past after his first stint as Celtic manager. You could list the offers from England on the back of a postage stamp that was shrunk in the wash.

Not sure what reputation Stevie G thinks he is building in Scotland. He probably will get some English offers but I guess that will be based on his name as a player rather as a manager

Pretty much all of Celtic's starting XI would hold its own in the EPL.

None of Celtic's starting XI have proven themselves in the EPL so I don't know how you can believe that. Only Edouard is even been linked with a transfer to EPL or European side. Look at the teams who have knocked Celtic out of Europe in recent seasons: Cluj, Copenhagen, Ferenvaros. None of whom would be even close to European football heavyweights or contenders.

The new signing from West Ham was a flop and not good enough for the EPL so what does is say about Celtic/Scottish football if he's expected to be their new star striker?

The likes of Everton, Burnley, Southampton etc have all done appallingly in the Europa League in recent years.

The EPL is not the pinnacle of football no matter what you think.

Ajeti certainly looks like a donkey, he doesn't look good enough for Celtic from the little bits so far.

Copenhagen took Man Utd to extra time a couple of weeks back. Sevilla eeked past Cluj in the EL as well.

The main issue for Celtic right now is a manager who is not up to the job and a board who are trying to pinch pennies at every corner. I don't think the quality of the squad is too bad overall, they just need a better manager in who needs to be backed financially.

You might not rate the EPL, but the standard is way above Scottish football. You still haven't replied to several of us why you think Celtic are an EPL standard team and their players are just as good as those in the EPL?

Only Edouard has shown anything resembling the ability an EPL footballer. Smashing 4/5 goals past St Mirren and Hamilton every week doesn't automatically qualify team/players as superstars.

Aberdeen were only put out of the europa league after extra time by their epl opponents 2 seasons ago. Both Celtic and Rangers went further in the europa league last season than some epl sides. When people compare the leagues they're usually comparing the likes of man city, liverpool, arsenal and teams in the top 6 with teams like hamilton and st mirren and there is no comparison. If however you compare the teams outside the top 6 in the epl like burnley, crystal palace, watford, bournemouth, huddersfield etc then Celtic, Rangers and Aberdeen are at least around the same level and would easily be able to compete with those sides.

You miss a very important point here. Celtic and Rangers can rest their key players at the weekend and prioritise Europe.

It's not the case that you cannot afford to that in the EPL but that the reverse is actually true

[Angelo]

Is the truth here just simply that Scottish football is pretty poor? The squads are stocked with players who's baseline in England would be bottom third of the second tier. It is going to be exceptionally difficult, coming from that base to compete in Europe. Yes Celtic have more money that many of the sides they have come up short against. But that money is generated because an audience is prepared to follow a team dominating a poor quality league. So money yes but the key football facts don't change.

Against all of that nobody should be under any delusions on where Lennon sits as a manager. He was a free agent in the past after his first stint as Celtic manager. You could list the offers from England on the back of a postage stamp that was shrunk in the wash.

Not sure what reputation Stevie G thinks he is building in Scotland. He probably will get some English offers but I guess that will be based on his name as a player rather as a manager

Pretty much all of Celtic's starting XI would hold its own in the EPL.

None of Celtic's starting XI have proven themselves in the EPL so I don't know how you can believe that. Only Edouard is even been linked with a transfer to EPL or European side. Look at the teams who have knocked Celtic out of Europe in recent seasons: Cluj, Copenhagen, Ferenvaros. None of whom would be even close to European football heavyweights or contenders.

The new signing from West Ham was a flop and not good enough for the EPL so what does is say about Celtic/Scottish football if he's expected to be their new star striker?

The likes of Everton, Burnley, Southampton etc have all done appallingly in the Europa League in recent years.

The EPL is not the pinnacle of football no matter what you think.

Ajeti certainly looks like a donkey, he doesn't look good enough for Celtic from the little bits so far.

Copenhagen took Man Utd to extra time a couple of weeks back. Sevilla eeked past Cluj in the EL as well.

The main issue for Celtic right now is a manager who is not up to the job and a board who are trying to pinch pennies at every corner. I don't think the quality of the squad is too bad overall, they just need a better manager in who needs to be backed financially.

I don't anyone argued the EPL was the pinnacle of football

And yes the clubs you mentioned didn't do well in Europe in those seasons. In fact they tended to have poor seasons when they tried to combine Europe with domestic competition. But they are nowhere near the best dudes in EPL. Mid table in the seasons you describe. Celtic on the other hand have typically ran away with SPL. Indicating that the average standard in Scotland is piss poor.

The chances are that Lennon is a poor manager but it's very far from the situation that any Scottish team is a good manager from thriving in Europe

I'm comparing Celtic to the teams outside the top 6/7 in the EPL. I don't think the standard is all that vast. Those clubs that were mentioned earlier all got into the Europa League via their league performances, they were all terrible when they qualified. All teams have to juggle their European duties with their domestic duties, arguably a lot more pressure on Celtic as dropped points might mean missing out on a title rather than finishing 9th or 13th.

Teams like RB Salzburg, Slavia Prague, Dnipro Donetsk, Ajax and many more have shown that you can excel in Europe on more modest budgets in recent years.

I don't think the overall talent is too lacking in the squad, I think Celtic currently have a decent enough spine but the problem seems to come from a management team that look clueless and a board unwilling to invest in areas that need addressing.

[Angelo]

Is the truth here just simply that Scottish football is pretty poor? The squads are stocked with players who's baseline in England would be bottom third of the second tier. It is going to be exceptionally difficult, coming from that base to compete in Europe. Yes Celtic have more money that many of the sides they have come up short against. But that money is generated because an audience is prepared to follow a team dominating a poor quality league. So money yes but the key football facts don't change.

Against all of that nobody should be under any delusions on where Lennon sits as a manager. He was a free agent in the past after his first stint as Celtic manager. You could list the offers from England on the back of a postage stamp that was shrunk in the wash.

Not sure what reputation Stevie G thinks he is building in Scotland. He probably will get some English offers but I guess that will be based on his name as a player rather as a manager

Pretty much all of Celtic's starting XI would hold its own in the EPL.

None of Celtic's starting XI have proven themselves in the EPL so I don't know how you can believe that. Only Edouard is even been linked with a transfer to EPL or European side. Look at the teams who have knocked Celtic out of Europe in recent seasons: Cluj, Copenhagen, Ferenvaros. None of whom would be even close to European football heavyweights or contenders.

The new signing from West Ham was a flop and not good enough for the EPL so what does is say about Celtic/Scottish football if he's expected to be their new star striker?

The likes of Everton, Burnley, Southampton etc have all done appallingly in the Europa League in recent years.

The EPL is not the pinnacle of football no matter what you think.

Ajeti certainly looks like a donkey, he doesn't look good enough for Celtic from the little bits so far.

Copenhagen took Man Utd to extra time a couple of weeks back. Sevilla eeked past Cluj in the EL as well.

The main issue for Celtic right now is a manager who is not up to the job and a board who are trying to pinch pennies at every corner. I don't think the quality of the squad is too bad overall, they just need a better manager in who needs to be backed financially.

You might not rate the EPL, but the standard is way above Scottish football. You still haven't replied to several of us why you think Celtic are an EPL standard team and their players are just as good as those in the EPL?

Only Edouard has shown anything resembling the ability an EPL footballer. Smashing 4/5 goals past St Mirren and Hamilton every week doesn't automatically qualify team/players as superstars.

Aberdeen were only put out of the europa league after extra time by their epl opponents 2 seasons ago. Both Celtic and Rangers went further in the europa league last season than some epl sides. When people compare the leagues they're usually comparing the likes of man city, liverpool, arsenal and teams in the top 6 with teams like hamilton and st mirren and there is no comparison. If however you compare the teams outside the top 6 in the epl like burnley, crystal palace, watford, bournemouth, huddersfield etc then Celtic, Rangers and Aberdeen are at least around the same level and would easily be able to compete with those sides.

You miss a very important point here. Celtic and Rangers can rest their key players at the weekend and prioritise Europe.

It's not the case that you cannot afford to that in the EPL but that the reverse is actually true

What utter horseshit.

Celtic are going for 10IAR this season, Rangers are going to stop 10IAR. Both are battling it out for silverware, there is little chance of them risking dropped points that can cost a league title.

Conversely mid table EPL sides don't care about finishing 8th or 14th and can afford to rest up players.

[smelmoth]

Is the truth here just simply that Scottish football is pretty poor? The squads are stocked with players who's baseline in England would be bottom third of the second tier. It is going to be exceptionally difficult, coming from that base to compete in Europe. Yes Celtic have more money that many of the sides they have come up short against. But that money is generated because an audience is prepared to follow a team dominating a poor quality league. So money yes but the key football facts don't change.

Against all of that nobody should be under any delusions on where Lennon sits as a manager. He was a free agent in the past after his first stint as Celtic manager. You could list the offers from England on the back of a postage stamp that was shrunk in the wash.

Not sure what reputation Stevie G thinks he is building in Scotland. He probably will get some English offers but I guess that will be based on his name as a player rather as a manager

Pretty much all of Celtic's starting XI would hold its own in the EPL.

None of Celtic's starting XI have proven themselves in the EPL so I don't know how you can believe that. Only Edouard is even been linked with a transfer to EPL or European side. Look at the teams who have knocked Celtic out of Europe in recent seasons: Cluj, Copenhagen, Ferenvaros. None of whom would be even close to European football heavyweights or contenders.

The new signing from West Ham was a flop and not good enough for the EPL so what does is say about Celtic/Scottish football if he's expected to be their new star striker?

The likes of Everton, Burnley, Southampton etc have all done appallingly in the Europa League in recent years.

The EPL is not the pinnacle of football no matter what you think.

Ajeti certainly looks like a donkey, he doesn't look good enough for Celtic from the little bits so far.

Copenhagen took Man Utd to extra time a couple of weeks back. Sevilla eeked past Cluj in the EL as well.

The main issue for Celtic right now is a manager who is not up to the job and a board who are trying to pinch pennies at every corner. I don't think the quality of the squad is too bad overall, they just need a better manager in who needs to be backed financially.

You might not rate the EPL, but the standard is way above Scottish football. You still haven't replied to several of us why you think Celtic are an EPL standard team and their players are just as good as those in the EPL?

Only Edouard has shown anything resembling the ability an EPL footballer. Smashing 4/5 goals past St Mirren and Hamilton every week doesn't automatically qualify team/players as superstars.

There's so much ignorance in that post you wouldn't know where to start.

Nobody is saying the SPL is of an equivalent standard to the EPL but I think Celtic would survive comfortably with a decent manager down there. You seem to vastly, vastly overstimate the quality of the EPL outside the top six teams.

What's the ability of an EPL footballer? A guy like Jamie Vardy who spends his career in the English lower leagues and non-league and comes to the EPL in the twilight of his career and hits a century of goals?

I've seen the EPL, there are plenty of Irish international players getting their game there that would get nowhere near a Celtic team - Stevens, Egan, Long, McGoldrick, Hourihane, Hendrick etc etc.

You seem to brainwashed into thinking the EPL is the be all and end all.

Edouard is good enough to play for a top 4 team down there. The rest of the Celtic first team starters and fringe players are more than capable of holding their own at that level when you look at some players clocking up regular appearances.

Those highlighted would not only start for Celtic but would be amongst their best players. I like seeing Celtic do well as much as the next man but you're in absolute dreamland if you think their current team wouldn't be relegated from the Premier League.

Come off it.

We have better players on the bench that some of those.

Rogic is more ability in his little toe than Hourihane or Henrick, when you see those lads at international level you know how poor they are. Likewise Stevens, Taylor looks a far better player than them. Long getting in ahead of Edouard? Give me a break, I'd have a fit Griffiths ahead of him any day of the week too.

For some of those guys however, they are playing in sides with a manager who has his side well drilled and organised where players know exactly what they are doing. Celtic currently have a pub manager running the team.

How do you explain the lack of scouting interest by the EPL in Scotland? And that includes Celtic. Celtic seem keen to move a few on. They might get decent money for one or two but there is hardly a frenzy of bids for those one or two and precisely zero for the bulk of the squad.

[smelmoth]

Celtic are a Huge club hindered by lack of TV money, Lack of a main sponsor, Lack of major outside investment, receipts from away supporters, Location (weather wise) and a mediocre league. Their budget would improve ten fold if they were playing south of the border. But they are not playing south of the border and live off of scraps when it comes to surviving in the bigger world of Champions League qualification and Europa League competitiveness.


If they were playing south of the border all of the above would change. And change dramatically. But, the Man Utd's, Man Cities, Chelsea's, Liverpool's, Spurs, Arsenals would still be ahead of Celtic for a considerable amount of time.

I think this is all true. Brand Celtic could thrive in EPL. But Team Celtic 2020 would plummet