Poppy Watch

[Applesisapples]

Millions were against Iraq, yet the money they give to the Poppy appeal goes to soldiers who fought there. So they are pro-war, no matter how you try to dress it up.

You know, it is possible to be anti war and still have some humanity left in you that you want to help care for the hundreds or thousands of (largely) young men coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan missing a foot, a leg, a hand, an arm or an eye etc, the vast majority of whom were out there doing their jobs because their superiors told them to..

Why would I have sympathy for any soldier who was wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan? What did they think they would do when they signed up for the army? Herding sheep? Flower arranging? Those drafted due to conscription, yes, but not those who volunteered. And if they volunteer to fight for the elitists, the elitists should be looking after them, not a charity.

Rather simplistic view, yes governments should do more. But this is their army, their soldiers, their brothers and sisters and it is their right to support the poppy fund. In the same way it is my right as an Irishman to fell that I have nothing in common with these soldiers and in view of the actions of some of that armies members in Ireland I can't wear a poppy. Many US citizens, including Tony's favourite Bruce Springsteen are against what the US government are doing but are very supportive of their soldiers.

[Applesisapples]

It's a bit like the old Billy Connolly joke about the recruiting sergeant who signs up the lad for the army "the next thing you know you're batterin' down the Falls road with a gun in your hand, the best laxative known to man".

[BennyCake]

Millions were against Iraq, yet the money they give to the Poppy appeal goes to soldiers who fought there. So they are pro-war, no matter how you try to dress it up.

You know, it is possible to be anti war and still have some humanity left in you that you want to help care for the hundreds or thousands of (largely) young men coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan missing a foot, a leg, a hand, an arm or an eye etc, the vast majority of whom were out there doing their jobs because their superiors told them to..

Why would I have sympathy for any soldier who was wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan? What did they think they would do when they signed up for the army? Herding sheep? Flower arranging? Those drafted due to conscription, yes, but not those who volunteered. And if they volunteer to fight for the elitists, the elitists should be looking after them, not a charity.

Did I say you should? I was merely pointing out that it is perfectly possible to both maintain an anti-war stance and sympathise with soldiers who are wounded and traumatised as a result of their experiences.

Say a 17 year old from Belfast signs up. He's grown up on the poverty line his entire life. Dad and brothers are in prison. Friends are junkies. Ma doesn't give a shit about him. Drops out of school at 16. No work in Shorts or the shipyards. Can't get himself a trade. Is actively targeted by recruiters, sees a chance to earn some cash and get a bit of stability in his life. Signs up, does a couple of months training and is shipped off to Iraq or Afghanistan and promptly gets his limbs blown off. You'd have no sympathy for this character? None at all?

None whatsoever.

Humanity was mentioned earlier regarding injured soldiers. Wheres the humanity in these soldiers going to the Middle East and murdering innocent civilians?

The Provos/UVF are always criticised for some actions, and rightly so, but there's no difference to what the provos/UVF etc did/are doing than these soldiers. These soldiers are just legal paramilitaries.

[brokencrossbar1]

Britain is becoming more and more like America every year, where the armed forces are put on a pedestal and hero worshipped. It has nothing to do with looking after ex soldiers. It has everything to do with governments winning unquestioning approval for their foreign policy decisions by brainwashing the public into thinking that everyone in military uniform is a hero deserving of its support. They do this by conflating in peoples' minds the heroism of conscripts who stopped the Nazis, or the tragedy of 14 year olds signing up for the Great War, with less heroic, more controversial conflicts, such as the illegal war in Iraq. I have nothing against individuals wearing poppies, but I do find obnoxious the tv companies and the football teams who buy into the government's insidious agenda by making it compulsory for anyone appearing on the box or playing in a match to wear one.

And couple that with the main arms manufacturers backing the poppy appeal and raising the awareness then you see the agenda driven nature of the whole thing and that doesn't even scratch the surface in terms of the politicization of it over here.  There is a real kick back towards the notion of imperialism in Britain at the minute and jingoistic politics is the calling card for the masses.  A skewed One nation philosophy is what is being peddled and it is dangerous.

[gallsman]

Millions were against Iraq, yet the money they give to the Poppy appeal goes to soldiers who fought there. So they are pro-war, no matter how you try to dress it up.

You know, it is possible to be anti war and still have some humanity left in you that you want to help care for the hundreds or thousands of (largely) young men coming home from Iraq and Afghanistan missing a foot, a leg, a hand, an arm or an eye etc, the vast majority of whom were out there doing their jobs because their superiors told them to..

Why would I have sympathy for any soldier who was wounded in Iraq or Afghanistan? What did they think they would do when they signed up for the army? Herding sheep? Flower arranging? Those drafted due to conscription, yes, but not those who volunteered. And if they volunteer to fight for the elitists, the elitists should be looking after them, not a charity.

Did I say you should? I was merely pointing out that it is perfectly possible to both maintain an anti-war stance and sympathise with soldiers who are wounded and traumatised as a result of their experiences.

Say a 17 year old from Belfast signs up. He's grown up on the poverty line his entire life. Dad and brothers are in prison. Friends are junkies. Ma doesn't give a shit about him. Drops out of school at 16. No work in Shorts or the shipyards. Can't get himself a trade. Is actively targeted by recruiters, sees a chance to earn some cash and get a bit of stability in his life. Signs up, does a couple of months training and is shipped off to Iraq or Afghanistan and promptly gets his limbs blown off. You'd have no sympathy for this character? None at all?

None whatsoever.

Humanity was mentioned earlier regarding injured soldiers. Wheres the humanity in these soldiers going to the Middle East and murdering innocent civilians?

The Provos/UVF are always criticised for some actions, and rightly so, but there's no difference to what the provos/UVF etc did/are doing than these soldiers. These soldiers are just legal paramilitaries.

Let's be clear here. These soldiers don't just "go to the Middle East" and start bombing and shooting - they are sent there by their commanders.

As pointed out earlier, outrage over illegal wars and the horrors inflicted on local populations as a result of these wars is not mutually exclusive with having sympathy with some poor bastard who gets blown to bits.

[Rossfan]

your clubs name is still dirt in most GAA clubs in West Belfast after your vote in favour of allowing them to play our games and become part of our association.

Oh  FFS go and join up with Willie Frazer somewhere 

[gallsman]

your clubs name is still dirt in most GAA clubs in West Belfast after your vote in favour of allowing them to play our games and become part of our association.

Oh  FFS go and join up with Willie Frazer somewhere 

Dunno how I missed this! I couldn't care less what he thinks and I really struggle to see the relevance of his blustering to this debate.

Mickey, Rossfan's comparison with Wullie is particularly appropriate. In his world it doesn't matter what the majority vote for if "the majority of the majority" don't vote the same way. Walt.

[BennyCake]

On a side issue, was the removal of Rule 21 an all-Ireland vote? And if so, why?!

[gallsman]

You don't see the relevance of wishing to feel sorry for a British soldier as a member of the West Belfast community (or your club certainly is anyway), in which the British Army wreaked havoc with immunity for years?

And you don't see any relevance in your club voting in favour of removing Rule 21 (the rule which banned British Soldiers and her majesty's police force) and other clubs in West Belfast being disgusted with yours for it??

But sure call me a walt. Maybe your father wasn't murdered by the British Army but mines was. Maybe your house wasn't smashed in by the Brits when you were a child but mines was.

Your dismissal of Rossfan because he's not from West Belfast or the North says it all. "You can't have a valid opinion because you didn't grow up blah blah blah".

I didn't say I don't see any relevance between perception of a club and it's voting history - in case you haven't realised, that's not what the debate is about. What I don't see the relevance of is how St. Galls voted when it comes to Rule 21 and whether or not it's possible to feel sympathy for individual soldiers whilst still condemning a war, but please, feel free to enlighten us. You're twisting yourself in so many circles you don't know what point you're trying to make.

[gallsman]

On a side issue, was the removal of Rule 21 an all-Ireland vote? And if so, why?!

Because the GAA is a 32 county (and more!) organisation ffs! That's not the discussion here though.

[BennyCake]

On a side issue, was the removal of Rule 21 an all-Ireland vote? And if so, why?!

Because the GAA is a 32 county (and more!) organisation ffs! That's not the discussion here though.

Yes but it only affects six counties. What would a fella on the Beara peninsula know about the security forces in the North, collusion, intimidation of nationalists etc etc?

[Rossfan]

I suspect a lot of GAA members were not  very happy with many of the actions of the Provos, many of which caused anguish to a lot of members of the Nationalist Community in the North over the years so should they be banned from membership too I wonder?.
As for only allowing GAA members from the 6 Cos to vote on the Rule 21 abolition.... come on lads wise up. As pointed out the GAA is a 32 County organisation and ALL it's delegates have a right to vote at Congresses.
The less bans we have the better anyway in this day and age ( or indeed in any day or age)
Positivity is the way to go and come out from behind the barricades of negativity.

As for poppy wearing .. I will NEVER do such a thing.

[lynchbhoy]

I suspect a lot of GAA members were not  very happy with many of the actions of the Provos, many of which caused anguish to a lot of members of the Nationalist Community in the North over the years so should they be banned from membership too I wonder?.
As for only allowing GAA members from the 6 Cos to vote on the Rule 21 abolition.... come on lads wise up. As pointed out the GAA is a 32 County organisation and ALL it's delegates have a right to vote at Congresses.
The less bans we have the better anyway in this day and age ( or indeed in any day or age)
Positivity is the way to go and come out from behind the barricades of negativity.

As for poppy wearing .. I will NEVER do such a thing.

Many GAA folk joined the IRA because of the treatment dished out to them by ruc/colluding 'security' forces purely because of them being GAA folk!
The lads that joined up didn't love violence but were driven to it!

I felt/feel sorry for the young army lads. However despite mostly only following orders from above , many got too fond of going postal on the nationalist/ catholic / Irish community in the six counties.

Rule 21 should have been brought in for the 26 counties and phased in to the 6 counties as a mark of respect for the suffering caused to northern Gaels .
Badly handled but this is now in the past.

One other point in response to another poster - there were as many , if not more
rebels in north Derry !!

[Rossfan]

Rule 21 should have been brought in for the 26 counties and phased in to the 6 counties as a mark of respect for the suffering caused to northern Gaels .

Daftness with a capital D. How exactly would it be "phased in" ? County by County?
The ban was removed as a result of the new Political agreement ion the 6 Cos and because a new(ish) Police service was being introduced.
It was mainly so young Nationalists could join the new Service and remain members of the GAA.
Anyway it was the removal of a ban NOT making it compulsory for members of the RUC/British Army to become members of the GAA.

[foxcommander]

I suspect a lot of GAA members were not  very happy with many of the actions of the Provos, many of which caused anguish to a lot of members of the Nationalist Community in the North over the years so should they be banned from membership too I wonder?.
As for only allowing GAA members from the 6 Cos to vote on the Rule 21 abolition.... come on lads wise up. As pointed out the GAA is a 32 County organisation and ALL it's delegates have a right to vote at Congresses.
The less bans we have the better anyway in this day and age ( or indeed in any day or age)
Positivity is the way to go and come out from behind the barricades of negativity.

As for poppy wearing .. I will NEVER do such a thing.

Easy for a free stater to pontificate from that side of the border.

I take it these are the same GAA members who couldn't contain themselves with excitement for the Queens visit. God save her.