Poppy Watch

[red hander]

The UK is something of an anachronism in today's world but it worked well for Britain (with England getting the best deal), not so much for Ireland.

Understatement of the decade.

Economically speaking, does the Irish economy not make a bit of cash from UK customers?

I believe it's biggest export market, and also biggest import market, so does the British economy not make a bit of cash from Irish customers?
And lest we forget (to coin a phrase), during the famine the British generously insisted in helping the Irish export drive by taking all its grain, rather than let some of it to be used to feed the starving ... and your point is?

[armaghniac]

Ireland is one of the rare places the UK has a trade surplus with, as their shops ship over so much crap here, so they should be grateful.

[Eamonnca1]

I believe his point is that both places benefit from trade.

[Applesisapples]

What I mean is that rather than deliver us a road to unity the peace process has put it a long ways off, if it will ever happen. There is no denying that we are in a far better place than we were before the cease fires. However rather than unionism embracing an Irish dimension or compromising on symbolism and flags etc... they have become more entrenched and secure in the knowledge that the Union is safe and they hold a veto.

They should be more secure. Recent events would indicate otherwise.

Nationalist on the otherhand have embraced this whole notion of Northern Ireland as a UK region, we seem to have embraced our "Britishness" and are tolerant of British companies now treating NI branches as they do "mainland" branches. We no longer object to the flying of the Union flag and other really British point of sale used by these retailers (I'm not taliking about tea bags and that wasn't me any way).

Has there been a change in strategy from British retailers in NI? When did this happen? Where are they flying the Union flag? (If I don't know these things, it's much harder to be offended by them.)

These are things that are small but are evident of a shift that I don't think SF anticipated. The acceptance of Derry as UK City of culture is another example of nationalists tacitly accepting that NI is an integral part of the UK. Does it matter? I would say from where I stand probably not to most nationalists ( more accurately catholics).

A case of 'money talks'.

In fairness to SF they have not embraced the mother of parliaments with the gusto of the SDLP, but surely only a matter of time. All the compromises seem to be coming from nationalists. The change is maybe some what intangible but there non the less.

Why is it "in fairness" to SF that they haven't taken seats in Westminster? They still run for elections to the British parliament. They still take their offices in London and their expenses. Earlier this year they even attended the Westminster Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

On the retailers, it used to be that anything that would place the company on one side or the other was avoided in NI. Not so in recent years. Tesco regularly have point of sale which make claims such as "Britain's biggest discounter", with the liberal use of union flags. Sainsbury's last year festooned with Union flag branded British Paralymics POS, even though most NI paralympians would be on team Ireland. They also still, despite what the may say import most of their food produce from Britain, working with British farmers whilst paying lip service to local producers(but that's a separate issue). That said my point is that the catholic population today quietly accepts this creeping Britishising without protest. Something they would not have done in the past.
It is also disgraceful that any so called nationalist politician would take an oath to the Queen to sit at Westminister a parliament which still institutionalises discrimination against catholics.

Sainsbury's were official sponsors for the British Paralympic team - I wouldn't get too upset by that - you feel free to do so.
Incidently, I found this - http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/fury-after-tesco-asks-staff-to-give-jubilee-badges-back-28756314.html - After laughing at Campbell, it's worth a read of Fionola Meredith's comment piece at the bottom - "we need to learn not to sweat the small stuff". Indeed.

As for the 'oath' - or the 'affirmation' as I understand the SDLP make - it's words. It's a necessary evil to undertake the job the electorate mandated them to do. But anyway, this is getting waaaaaay off topic.

Let me make it clear the point I am making is that we now have all come to accept this, I am actually lamenting the death of nationalism and our acceptance of Britishness...these i am showing only as examples.

[Applesisapples]

What I mean is that rather than deliver us a road to unity the peace process has put it a long ways off, if it will ever happen. There is no denying that we are in a far better place than we were before the cease fires. However rather than unionism embracing an Irish dimension or compromising on symbolism and flags etc... they have become more entrenched and secure in the knowledge that the Union is safe and they hold a veto. Nationalist on the otherhand have embraced this whole notion of Northern Ireland as a UK region, we seem to have embraced our "Britishness" and are tolerant of British companies now treating NI branches as they do "mainland" branches. We no longer object to the flying of the Union flag and other really British point of sale used by these retailers (I'm not taliking about tea bags and that wasn't me any way). These are things that are small but are evident of a shift that I don't think SF anticipated. The acceptance of Derry as UK City of culture is another example of nationalists tacitly accepting that NI is an integral part of the UK. Does it matter? I would say from where I stand probably not to most nationalists ( more accurately catholics). In fairness to SF they have not embraced the mother of parliaments with the gusto of the SDLP, but surely only a matter of time. All the compromises seem to be coming from nationalists. The change is maybe some what intangible but there non the less.

Um, what would be the point of living in some sort of reality-distortion bubble in which the north isn't part of the UK?  It is whether we like it or not. Just because we don't like the idea of it being part of the UK doesn't change the fact that it is, and I see no harm in accepting that it is.  Saying "I accept that the north is part of the UK" is not the same thing as saying "I want the north to be part of the UK."  It's possible to recognise the existence of the status quo without supporting it.

As for "integral", that's a matter of semantics. The UK is a fairly loosely-connected entity.  You've got a separate legal system in Scotland that's distinct from England and Wales, a separate education system, a devolved parliament in Scotland and assemblies in Wales and the north.  It's a "composite" country which is unusual today but was a lot more common in the early twentieth century.  You had Austria-Hungary which was a massive multinational state with god-knows-how-many languages and nationalities included.  The Ottoman Empire reached right into the Balkans. Germany had only just emerged under Bismark as a union of dozens of principalities with a big chunk of Prussia. 

The UK is something of an anachronism in today's world but it worked well for Britain (with England getting the best deal), not so much for Ireland.

Look you are missing the point. I am not denying that NI is a part of the UK. As part of the UK it can still be different and reflect the national allegience of both communities. I am saying that the acceptance of all this British symbolism by catholics is evedence that Peter Robinson is right nationalism is dead and we are all embracing Britishness.

[AQMP]

Back to the thread, I'd mentioned unionist commentator and journalist Alex Kane not wearing a poppy on BBC NI last week.  He has explained that he only wears a poppy on Remembrance Sunday and the 11th November itself.  A bit of sense breaking out there?

[Applesisapples]

Back to the thread, I'd mentioned unionist commentator and journalist Alex Kane not wearing a poppy on BBC NI last week.  He has explained that he only wears a poppy on Remembrance Sunday and the 11th November itself.  A bit of sense breaking out there?

I wouldn't always agree with Alex but he speaks a lot of sense at times.

[OakleafCounty]

Look you are missing the point. I am not denying that NI is a part of the UK. As part of the UK it can still be different and reflect the national allegience of both communities. I am saying that the acceptance of all this British symbolism by catholics is evedence that Peter Robinson is right nationalism is dead and we are all embracing Britishness.

That's complete balls. Do you not remember a year ago when the union flag was taken down from Belfast City Hall? If you don't like British symbolism in retail stores then vote with your feet. I for one have never went back to Dunelm Mill since I seen a union jack range of cushions but at the same time I buy natural yoghurt from Tesco every week which has a small union jack on the packaging reflecting that it was produced in Britain. I make that compromise because I like natural yoghurt and it's cheap. Nationalism is far from dead, there are plenty of aspects of NI life that refect the nationalist side. The GAA being a major one!

The difference between this generation of NI catholics and previous ones is that we have complete freedom. Freedom to be Irish, to vote as equals, to express our opinions, to pursue the careers we want, to buy land or a house.

Whether you like or not there is a British presence in the six counties which won't change much with a political United Ireland if it ever happens. There is also a big British cultural presence in the Republic. A couple of weeks ago I was in a pub in Sligo that could just as easily have been a pub in Aberdeen. 

[HiMucker]

Look you are missing the point. I am not denying that NI is a part of the UK. As part of the UK it can still be different and reflect the national allegience of both communities. I am saying that the acceptance of all this British symbolism by catholics is evedence that Peter Robinson is right nationalism is dead and we are all embracing Britishness.

That's complete balls. Do you not remember a year ago when the union flag was taken down from Belfast City Hall? If you don't like British symbolism in retail stores then vote with your feet. I for one have never went back to Dunelm Mill since I seen a union jack range of cushions but at the same time I buy natural yoghurt from Tesco every week which has a small union jack on the packaging reflecting that it was produced in Britain. I make that compromise because I like natural yoghurt and it's cheap. Nationalism is far from dead, there are plenty of aspects of NI life that refect the nationalist side. The GAA being a major one!

The difference between this generation of NI catholics and previous ones is that we have complete freedom. Freedom to be Irish, to vote as equals, to express our opinions, to pursue the careers we want, to buy land or a house.

Whether you like or not there is a British presence in the six counties which won't change much with a political United Ireland if it ever happens. There is also a big British cultural presence in the Republic. A couple of weeks ago I was in a pub in Sligo that could just as easily have been a pub in Aberdeen.

The couple that started and still own Dunelm Mill are from Cardonagh Co Donegal to my knowledge.  Started off small, and  our a real success story.  One of very few if not the only home furnishing outlet that were expanding and opening new outlets during the recession.  I think I would forgive them the Union Jack cushions, most likely meant for stores in England etc.

Apologies for the detour, carry on:)

[Applesisapples]

Look you are missing the point. I am not denying that NI is a part of the UK. As part of the UK it can still be different and reflect the national allegience of both communities. I am saying that the acceptance of all this British symbolism by catholics is evedence that Peter Robinson is right nationalism is dead and we are all embracing Britishness.

That's complete balls. Do you not remember a year ago when the union flag was taken down from Belfast City Hall? If you don't like British symbolism in retail stores then vote with your feet. I for one have never went back to Dunelm Mill since I seen a union jack range of cushions but at the same time I buy natural yoghurt from Tesco every week which has a small union jack on the packaging reflecting that it was produced in Britain. I make that compromise because I like natural yoghurt and it's cheap. Nationalism is far from dead, there are plenty of aspects of NI life that refect the nationalist side. The GAA being a major one!

The difference between this generation of NI catholics and previous ones is that we have complete freedom. Freedom to be Irish, to vote as equals, to express our opinions, to pursue the careers we want, to buy land or a house.

Whether you like or not there is a British presence in the six counties which won't change much with a political United Ireland if it ever happens. There is also a big British cultural presence in the Republic. A couple of weeks ago I was in a pub in Sligo that could just as easily have been a pub in Aberdeen.

Balls is it? take your head out of the sand, this is nothing to do with culture it is yours and my acceptance that we are as British as Finchley, there will be no united Ireland ever as the Catholic majority has abandoned nationalism...lead by the Shinners I might add.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

Spoke to a republican from Gobnascale in Derry yesterday, he was taken aback when i said to him that the only difference between him and someone in England was accent.
He spends all his spare time reading red top rags, supporting Man Utd and slagging off bogball/GAA etc.

He hasnt a word of Irish, has never played nor watched GAA and doesnt know one end of an Uileann pipe from another, so to me he was just a beaten republican happy to follow everthing british and back SF up on their quest to further cement us into the UK.
His republicanism was based on a tribal/ghetto politics of the 70s/80s and no real understanding of what Irish Culture or heritage is reallty about.
Accept it lads we are beaten and outfoxed by the oul emeny again.

[orangeman]

Spoke to a republican from Gobnascale in Derry yesterday, he was taken aback when i said to him that the only difference between him and someone in England was accent.
He spends all his spare time reading red top rags, supporting Man Utd and slagging off bogball/GAA etc.

He hasnt a word of Irish, has never played nor watched GAA and doesnt know one end of an Uileann pipe from another, so to me he was just a beaten republican happy to follow everthing british and back SF up on their quest to further cement us into the UK.
His republicanism was based on a tribal/ghetto politics of the 70s/80s and no real understanding of what Irish Culture or heritage is reallty about.
Accept it lads we are beaten and outfoxed by the oul emeny again.

How did he react to that ?

[muppet]

Spoke to a republican from Gobnascale in Derry yesterday, he was taken aback when i said to him that the only difference between him and someone in England was accent.
He spends all his spare time reading red top rags, supporting Man Utd and slagging off bogball/GAA etc.

He hasnt a word of Irish, has never played nor watched GAA and doesnt know one end of an Uileann pipe from another, so to me he was just a beaten republican happy to follow everthing british and back SF up on their quest to further cement us into the UK.
His republicanism was based on a tribal/ghetto politics of the 70s/80s and no real understanding of what Irish Culture or heritage is reallty about.
Accept it lads we are beaten and outfoxed by the oul emeny again.

Is this 'someone in England' a Morris-Dancing, tea drinking, bulldog-walking, cricket watching, lip stiffening, oft gardening green grocer?

Or does the narrow stereotype apply only to the fíor Gael?

[deiseach]

Spoke to a republican from Gobnascale in Derry yesterday, he was taken aback when i said to him that the only difference between him and someone in England was accent.
He spends all his spare time reading red top rags, supporting Man Utd and slagging off bogball/GAA etc.

Nothing more Irish than using the term 'bogball'. You certainly won't find the English using it.

[OakleafCounty]

Look you are missing the point. I am not denying that NI is a part of the UK. As part of the UK it can still be different and reflect the national allegience of both communities. I am saying that the acceptance of all this British symbolism by catholics is evedence that Peter Robinson is right nationalism is dead and we are all embracing Britishness.

That's complete balls. Do you not remember a year ago when the union flag was taken down from Belfast City Hall? If you don't like British symbolism in retail stores then vote with your feet. I for one have never went back to Dunelm Mill since I seen a union jack range of cushions but at the same time I buy natural yoghurt from Tesco every week which has a small union jack on the packaging reflecting that it was produced in Britain. I make that compromise because I like natural yoghurt and it's cheap. Nationalism is far from dead, there are plenty of aspects of NI life that refect the nationalist side. The GAA being a major one!

The difference between this generation of NI catholics and previous ones is that we have complete freedom. Freedom to be Irish, to vote as equals, to express our opinions, to pursue the careers we want, to buy land or a house.

Whether you like or not there is a British presence in the six counties which won't change much with a political United Ireland if it ever happens. There is also a big British cultural presence in the Republic. A couple of weeks ago I was in a pub in Sligo that could just as easily have been a pub in Aberdeen.

Balls is it? take your head out of the sand, this is nothing to do with culture it is yours and my acceptance that we are as British as Finchley, there will be no united Ireland ever as the Catholic majority has abandoned nationalism...lead by the Shinners I might add.

So we're accepting Britishness even though we carry Irish passports, support GAA and other cultural activities. But because we're not protesting at the hugely successful city of culture or Sainsburies doing whatever it is there meant to have done we're accepting Britishness. Do you expect people to live their lives thinking of nothing other than a United Ireland. The fact is that even if there is a UI there will still be an Orange Order and the Union Flag will still fly in unionist estates.