Poppy Watch

[Myles Na G.]

I'm really bored of this, Myles, seeing as you fail to address any of the major points that I make and instead focus on a completely subjective argument about the difference between a fool and an idiot (without protesting at being called either).

If you want me I'll be laughing at the mascots observing Remembrance Day impeccably.

I was quite happy to engage with you up until you leapt on to your high horse and started throwing out juvenile insults, at which point I became bored very quickly. So we have that in common, if nothing else.

Actually, I agree with you about the mascots too. Very droll. Or drole, as the Normans might've said. 

[theticklemister]

What I mean is that rather than deliver us a road to unity the peace process has put it a long ways off, if it will ever happen. There is no denying that we are in a far better place than we were before the cease fires. However rather than unionism embracing an Irish dimension or compromising on symbolism and flags etc... they have become more entrenched and secure in the knowledge that the Union is safe and they hold a veto. Nationalist on the otherhand have embraced this whole notion of Northern Ireland as a UK region, we seem to have embraced our "Britishness" and are tolerant of British companies now treating NI branches as they do "mainland" branches. We no longer object to the flying of the Union flag and other really British point of sale used by these retailers (I'm not taliking about tea bags and that wasn't me any way). These are things that are small but are evident of a shift that I don't think SF anticipated. The acceptance of Derry as UK City of culture is another example of nationalists tacitly accepting that NI is an integral part of the UK. Does it matter? I would say from where I stand probably not to most nationalists ( more accurately catholics). In fairness to SF they have not embraced the mother of parliaments with the gusto of the SDLP, but surely only a matter of time. All the compromises seem to be coming from nationalists. The change is maybe some what intangible but there non the less.

Would agree with you there all right. The re branding and acceptance of Derry city as Derrylondonderry and UK City of culture is a prime example. Don't bet against the Shinners taking their seats in Westminister as there is a pay rise on the cards for MP's.......

Exactly.

Just because you do not support all this UK city of culture crap you are being targeted as an outcast or as someone who does not look to the future.

[deiseach]

ITV news presenter hits back after abuse for not wearing poppy

Charlene White faced racist and sexist abuse which, she said, acted against all the goals that the fallen soldiers fought for

Shane Hickey
theguardian.com, Wednesday 13 November 2013 01.25 GMT

An ITV news presenter who has been subject to racist and sexist abuse for her decision not to wear a Remembrance Day poppy said she made her decision in order to be "neutral and impartial on-screen".

Charlene White, a presenter on ITV News London, received insults on social media after she appeared on screen without the poppy, with many of the jibes focusing on her race.

In a statement on the ITV website, the journalist said she had made the decision not to wear a poppy a number of years ago but the backlash this year had been the worst so far.

She said she supported the armed forces, in which her father and uncle had served, but chose to remain impartial on screen.

"I support and am patron of a number of charities and I am uncomfortable with giving one of those charities more on-screen time than others," she said. "I prefer to be neutral and impartial on screen so that one of those charities doesn't feel less favoured than another. Offscreen in my private life – it's different.

"I wear a red ribbon at the start of December for World Aids Day, a pink ribbon in October during breast cancer awareness month, a badge in April during Bowel Cancer Awareness month, and yes – a poppy on Armistice Day.

"I respect and hold in high esteem those in the armed forces, both my father and my uncle have served in the RAF and the army. Every year I donate to the Poppy Appeal because above all else it is a charity that needs donations, so that it can continue to help support serving and ex-service men and women and their families."

The abuse directed at her on Twitter included racist jibes that her family would not have been able to settle in Britain but for the deaths of soldiers. "Without all those fallen soldiers, Hitler would've taken over Britain and your family would never have been allowed here...," user @alhaurincraig wrote. Another crudely superimposed a picture of a poppy on to an image of the presenter with a banner saying 'Sack the Slag'.

White said the racist and sexist abuse acted against all of the goals that the fallen soldiers had fought for. "The messages of "go back to where you came from" have been interesting to read, as have the 'fat s--g' comments, and the repeated use of the phrase 'black c--t'," she said. "Mostly because it flies in the face of everything that millions of British men and women and those in the Commonwealth have fought for for generations, and continue to fight for: the right to choose, and the right of freedom of speech and expression."

Google has also been the subject of criticism because it used only a small Remembrance Day poppy on its website. Labour MP Gerry Sutcliffe said it was "demeaning not to have something spectacular".

The search engine said it tried to be sensitive in not putting sombre occasions into one of their trademark doodles but instead featuring them in some way on their homepage.

[glens abu]

Where is this going to end?

According "mistic dixie "when the shinners take their big pay rise when sitting at Westminister.

[Applesisapples]

What I mean is that rather than deliver us a road to unity the peace process has put it a long ways off, if it will ever happen. There is no denying that we are in a far better place than we were before the cease fires. However rather than unionism embracing an Irish dimension or compromising on symbolism and flags etc... they have become more entrenched and secure in the knowledge that the Union is safe and they hold a veto.

They should be more secure. Recent events would indicate otherwise.

Nationalist on the otherhand have embraced this whole notion of Northern Ireland as a UK region, we seem to have embraced our "Britishness" and are tolerant of British companies now treating NI branches as they do "mainland" branches. We no longer object to the flying of the Union flag and other really British point of sale used by these retailers (I'm not taliking about tea bags and that wasn't me any way).

Has there been a change in strategy from British retailers in NI? When did this happen? Where are they flying the Union flag? (If I don't know these things, it's much harder to be offended by them.)

These are things that are small but are evident of a shift that I don't think SF anticipated. The acceptance of Derry as UK City of culture is another example of nationalists tacitly accepting that NI is an integral part of the UK. Does it matter? I would say from where I stand probably not to most nationalists ( more accurately catholics).

A case of 'money talks'.

In fairness to SF they have not embraced the mother of parliaments with the gusto of the SDLP, but surely only a matter of time. All the compromises seem to be coming from nationalists. The change is maybe some what intangible but there non the less.

Why is it "in fairness" to SF that they haven't taken seats in Westminster? They still run for elections to the British parliament. They still take their offices in London and their expenses. Earlier this year they even attended the Westminster Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

On the retailers, it used to be that anything that would place the company on one side or the other was avoided in NI. Not so in recent years. Tesco regularly have point of sale which make claims such as "Britain's biggest discounter", with the liberal use of union flags. Sainsbury's last year festooned with Union flag branded British Paralymics POS, even though most NI paralympians would be on team Ireland. They also still, despite what the may say import most of their food produce from Britain, working with British farmers whilst paying lip service to local producers(but that's a separate issue). That said my point is that the catholic population today quietly accepts this creeping Britishising without protest. Something they would not have done in the past.
It is also disgraceful that any so called nationalist politician would take an oath to the Queen to sit at Westminister a parliament which still institutionalises discrimination against catholics.

[Sidney]

[trueblue1234]

What I mean is that rather than deliver us a road to unity the peace process has put it a long ways off, if it will ever happen. There is no denying that we are in a far better place than we were before the cease fires. However rather than unionism embracing an Irish dimension or compromising on symbolism and flags etc... they have become more entrenched and secure in the knowledge that the Union is safe and they hold a veto.

They should be more secure. Recent events would indicate otherwise.

Nationalist on the otherhand have embraced this whole notion of Northern Ireland as a UK region, we seem to have embraced our "Britishness" and are tolerant of British companies now treating NI branches as they do "mainland" branches. We no longer object to the flying of the Union flag and other really British point of sale used by these retailers (I'm not taliking about tea bags and that wasn't me any way).

Has there been a change in strategy from British retailers in NI? When did this happen? Where are they flying the Union flag? (If I don't know these things, it's much harder to be offended by them.)

These are things that are small but are evident of a shift that I don't think SF anticipated. The acceptance of Derry as UK City of culture is another example of nationalists tacitly accepting that NI is an integral part of the UK. Does it matter? I would say from where I stand probably not to most nationalists ( more accurately catholics).

A case of 'money talks'.

In fairness to SF they have not embraced the mother of parliaments with the gusto of the SDLP, but surely only a matter of time. All the compromises seem to be coming from nationalists. The change is maybe some what intangible but there non the less.

Why is it "in fairness" to SF that they haven't taken seats in Westminster? They still run for elections to the British parliament. They still take their offices in London and their expenses. Earlier this year they even attended the Westminster Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

On the retailers, it used to be that anything that would place the company on one side or the other was avoided in NI. Not so in recent years. Tesco regularly have point of sale which make claims such as "Britain's biggest discounter", with the liberal use of union flags. Sainsbury's last year festooned with Union flag branded British Paralymics POS, even though most NI paralympians would be on team Ireland. They also still, despite what the may say import most of their food produce from Britain, working with British farmers whilst paying lip service to local producers(but that's a separate issue). That said my point is that the catholic population today quietly accepts this creeping Britishising without protest. Something they would not have done in the past.
It is also disgraceful that any so called nationalist politician would take an oath to the Queen to sit at Westminister a parliament which still institutionalises discrimination against catholics.

Simply not true. Sainsburys, Tescos and Asda are making huge strides in dealing with the local companies. They are demanding on their requirements, but that's no different than the UK. Sainburys alone introduced something like 180 new NI lines this year. Some of the problems the local producers are hitting is meeting demand and Sainburys are trying to work along with companies to meet this. Plus I see plenty of "Irish Beef" signs and "Irish Pork" signs as well. But I wouldn'y expect Unionists to start complaining that this is an erosion of their Britishness. 

[deiseach]

Fair play to James McClean, dignified response.

(The thread is hilarious)

[gallsman]

ITV news presenter hits back after abuse for not wearing poppy
Google has also been the subject of criticism because it used only a small Remembrance Day poppy on its website. Labour MP Gerry Sutcliffe said it was "demeaning not to have something spectacular".

The search engine said it tried to be sensitive in not putting sombre occasions into one of their trademark doodles but instead featuring them in some way on their homepage.

That's just outstanding. What do they want? Fireworks?

[Applesisapples]

What I mean is that rather than deliver us a road to unity the peace process has put it a long ways off, if it will ever happen. There is no denying that we are in a far better place than we were before the cease fires. However rather than unionism embracing an Irish dimension or compromising on symbolism and flags etc... they have become more entrenched and secure in the knowledge that the Union is safe and they hold a veto.

They should be more secure. Recent events would indicate otherwise.

Nationalist on the otherhand have embraced this whole notion of Northern Ireland as a UK region, we seem to have embraced our "Britishness" and are tolerant of British companies now treating NI branches as they do "mainland" branches. We no longer object to the flying of the Union flag and other really British point of sale used by these retailers (I'm not taliking about tea bags and that wasn't me any way).

Has there been a change in strategy from British retailers in NI? When did this happen? Where are they flying the Union flag? (If I don't know these things, it's much harder to be offended by them.)

These are things that are small but are evident of a shift that I don't think SF anticipated. The acceptance of Derry as UK City of culture is another example of nationalists tacitly accepting that NI is an integral part of the UK. Does it matter? I would say from where I stand probably not to most nationalists ( more accurately catholics).

A case of 'money talks'.

In fairness to SF they have not embraced the mother of parliaments with the gusto of the SDLP, but surely only a matter of time. All the compromises seem to be coming from nationalists. The change is maybe some what intangible but there non the less.

Why is it "in fairness" to SF that they haven't taken seats in Westminster? They still run for elections to the British parliament. They still take their offices in London and their expenses. Earlier this year they even attended the Westminster Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

On the retailers, it used to be that anything that would place the company on one side or the other was avoided in NI. Not so in recent years. Tesco regularly have point of sale which make claims such as "Britain's biggest discounter", with the liberal use of union flags. Sainsbury's last year festooned with Union flag branded British Paralymics POS, even though most NI paralympians would be on team Ireland. They also still, despite what the may say import most of their food produce from Britain, working with British farmers whilst paying lip service to local producers(but that's a separate issue). That said my point is that the catholic population today quietly accepts this creeping Britishising without protest. Something they would not have done in the past.
It is also disgraceful that any so called nationalist politician would take an oath to the Queen to sit at Westminister a parliament which still institutionalises discrimination against catholics.

Simply not true. Sainsburys, Tescos and Asda are making huge strides in dealing with the local companies. They are demanding on their requirements, but that's no different than the UK. Sainburys alone introduced something like 180 new NI lines this year. Some of the problems the local producers are hitting is meeting demand and Sainburys are trying to work along with companies to meet this. Plus I see plenty of "Irish Beef" signs and "Irish Pork" signs as well. But I wouldn'y expect Unionists to start complaining that this is an erosion of their Britishness.

Actually I did not mention country of origin pos which I believe to be quite in order.

[Maguire01]

What I mean is that rather than deliver us a road to unity the peace process has put it a long ways off, if it will ever happen. There is no denying that we are in a far better place than we were before the cease fires. However rather than unionism embracing an Irish dimension or compromising on symbolism and flags etc... they have become more entrenched and secure in the knowledge that the Union is safe and they hold a veto.

They should be more secure. Recent events would indicate otherwise.

Nationalist on the otherhand have embraced this whole notion of Northern Ireland as a UK region, we seem to have embraced our "Britishness" and are tolerant of British companies now treating NI branches as they do "mainland" branches. We no longer object to the flying of the Union flag and other really British point of sale used by these retailers (I'm not taliking about tea bags and that wasn't me any way).

Has there been a change in strategy from British retailers in NI? When did this happen? Where are they flying the Union flag? (If I don't know these things, it's much harder to be offended by them.)

These are things that are small but are evident of a shift that I don't think SF anticipated. The acceptance of Derry as UK City of culture is another example of nationalists tacitly accepting that NI is an integral part of the UK. Does it matter? I would say from where I stand probably not to most nationalists ( more accurately catholics).

A case of 'money talks'.

In fairness to SF they have not embraced the mother of parliaments with the gusto of the SDLP, but surely only a matter of time. All the compromises seem to be coming from nationalists. The change is maybe some what intangible but there non the less.

Why is it "in fairness" to SF that they haven't taken seats in Westminster? They still run for elections to the British parliament. They still take their offices in London and their expenses. Earlier this year they even attended the Westminster Northern Ireland Affairs Committee.

On the retailers, it used to be that anything that would place the company on one side or the other was avoided in NI. Not so in recent years. Tesco regularly have point of sale which make claims such as "Britain's biggest discounter", with the liberal use of union flags. Sainsbury's last year festooned with Union flag branded British Paralymics POS, even though most NI paralympians would be on team Ireland. They also still, despite what the may say import most of their food produce from Britain, working with British farmers whilst paying lip service to local producers(but that's a separate issue). That said my point is that the catholic population today quietly accepts this creeping Britishising without protest. Something they would not have done in the past.
It is also disgraceful that any so called nationalist politician would take an oath to the Queen to sit at Westminister a parliament which still institutionalises discrimination against catholics.

Sainsbury's were official sponsors for the British Paralympic team - I wouldn't get too upset by that - you feel free to do so.
Incidently, I found this - http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/northern-ireland/fury-after-tesco-asks-staff-to-give-jubilee-badges-back-28756314.html - After laughing at Campbell, it's worth a read of Fionola Meredith's comment piece at the bottom - "we need to learn not to sweat the small stuff". Indeed.

As for the 'oath' - or the 'affirmation' as I understand the SDLP make - it's words. It's a necessary evil to undertake the job the electorate mandated them to do. But anyway, this is getting waaaaaay off topic.

[armaghniac]

Sainsbury's were official sponsors for the British Paralympic team - I wouldn't get too upset by that - you feel free to do so.

Are you Myles Na G?

[Eamonnca1]

What I mean is that rather than deliver us a road to unity the peace process has put it a long ways off, if it will ever happen. There is no denying that we are in a far better place than we were before the cease fires. However rather than unionism embracing an Irish dimension or compromising on symbolism and flags etc... they have become more entrenched and secure in the knowledge that the Union is safe and they hold a veto. Nationalist on the otherhand have embraced this whole notion of Northern Ireland as a UK region, we seem to have embraced our "Britishness" and are tolerant of British companies now treating NI branches as they do "mainland" branches. We no longer object to the flying of the Union flag and other really British point of sale used by these retailers (I'm not taliking about tea bags and that wasn't me any way). These are things that are small but are evident of a shift that I don't think SF anticipated. The acceptance of Derry as UK City of culture is another example of nationalists tacitly accepting that NI is an integral part of the UK. Does it matter? I would say from where I stand probably not to most nationalists ( more accurately catholics). In fairness to SF they have not embraced the mother of parliaments with the gusto of the SDLP, but surely only a matter of time. All the compromises seem to be coming from nationalists. The change is maybe some what intangible but there non the less.

Um, what would be the point of living in some sort of reality-distortion bubble in which the north isn't part of the UK?  It is whether we like it or not. Just because we don't like the idea of it being part of the UK doesn't change the fact that it is, and I see no harm in accepting that it is.  Saying "I accept that the north is part of the UK" is not the same thing as saying "I want the north to be part of the UK."  It's possible to recognise the existence of the status quo without supporting it.

As for "integral", that's a matter of semantics. The UK is a fairly loosely-connected entity.  You've got a separate legal system in Scotland that's distinct from England and Wales, a separate education system, a devolved parliament in Scotland and assemblies in Wales and the north.  It's a "composite" country which is unusual today but was a lot more common in the early twentieth century.  You had Austria-Hungary which was a massive multinational state with god-knows-how-many languages and nationalities included.  The Ottoman Empire reached right into the Balkans. Germany had only just emerged under Bismark as a union of dozens of principalities with a big chunk of Prussia. 

The UK is something of an anachronism in today's world but it worked well for Britain (with England getting the best deal), not so much for Ireland.

[Rossfan]

The UK is something of an anachronism in today's world but it worked well for Britain (with England getting the best deal), not so much for Ireland.

Understatement of the decade.

[michaelg]

The UK is something of an anachronism in today's world but it worked well for Britain (with England getting the best deal), not so much for Ireland.

Understatement of the decade.

Economically speaking, does the Irish economy not make a bit of cash from UK customers?