Poppy Watch

[Evil Genius]

"People must realise that the Diamond War Memorial belongs to all the people of the city and that we have a shared history. For example, young men from both the Catholic/Nationalist 16th Irish Division and the Protestant/Unionist 36th Ulster Division fought and died side by side as one unit in the battle for Messines Ridge in Belgium on the 7th June, 1917."
To date, project researcher, Trevor Temple, has discovered that almost 48% of the 756 names on the memorial belong to members of the Nationalist/Catholic community who died in World War One.

All very moving ... isn't a pity that the minority unionist elite who ruled for years through gerrymandering and discriminated against the surviving relatives of that 48% didn't demonstrate the same magnanimity that you expect of nationalists in Derry

'Whataboutery' at its finest - another proud Derry tradition.

Anyhow, my point was that this issue is not so Black and White as you make it out to be.

Which is precisely why I opened my post with: "Personally I couldn't give a stuff whether McClean wears a Poppy or not; further I don't think it in the spirit of the thing for people to feel compelled to do so either, so in that regard, he must be entitled to demur."

But hey, let's not permit this debate to rise above the usual "Ussuns" and "Themmuns" level, eh? 

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

A few guys sang Aiden McAnnesppi during the minutes silence at solitude on sat. Utv reports it as singing sectarian songs, c***ts should do a bit of research before they bandy the word sectarian about.

Do you think it acceptable to sing non-sectarian songs during a minutes silence, then?

Stupid decision to even attempt it at that match-come off it why do we constantly create situations which would be difficult. How would  a minutes silence for 1916 rising go down at irish league games?

[gallsman]

A few guys sang Aiden McAnnesppi during the minutes silence at solitude on sat. Utv reports it as singing sectarian songs, c***ts should do a bit of research before they bandy the word sectarian about.

Do you think it acceptable to sing non-sectarian songs during a minutes silence, then?

I would suggest they were voicing their displeasure at being asked to observe a minute's silence in the first place given the side of the fence the club draws most of its supporters from. Pretty? No. Understandable? Yes.

[charlieTully]

A few guys sang Aiden McAnnesppi during the minutes silence at solitude on sat. Utv reports it as singing sectarian songs, c***ts should do a bit of research before they bandy the word sectarian about.

Do you think it acceptable to sing non-sectarian songs during a minutes silence, then?
[/quote

My point was more about the labelling of that particular song as sectarian. Personally I would not observe the silence but would wait outside till it was over.

[Evil Genius]

The war memorial belongs to all, Catholics and Protestants alike blah blah blah. That's one of the arguments I've seen bandied about the most this weekend - Catholics and Irish nationalists died fighting in France, therefore people of a particular persuasion should "show respect". All well and good. Still don't see how any of that should be used as evidence a young Catholic, nationalist man from Derry should ever be criticised for choosing to not wear a poppy.

Of course there are very understandable reasons why "a young Catholic nationalist man from Derry" [sic] should not wish to wear a Poppy (though I fail to see why age, religion or gender should come into it).

But there are also reasons why a Derry Nationalist might not automatically be averse to the idea (whether he/she actually wears one or not). And one of these is that, contrary to popular understanding (myth even),  the tradition of Derry people serving in the British Armed Forces has never been confined solely to the Unionist tradition.

And since Derry's War Dead came from all parts and traditions of the city, all of its people should be equally permitted to mark, or not mark, Remembrance Sunday entirely as they wish.

Or do you not agree?

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Personally I couldn't give a stuff whether McClean wears a Poppy or not; further I don't think it in the spirit of the thing for people to feel compelled to do so either, so in that regard, he must be entitled to demur.

However, two things occur to me. First, it is a bit rich of some people to complain that he should be allowed not to wear the Poppy if he doesn't wish to, then go on to ask us to imagine the reaction from people in Derry if he did wear one.
That is, he must be allowed not to wear one, but the reaction of (some of) the people of Derry should dictate that he mustn't be allowed to wear one.
Especially since, as this article on the War Memorial in Derry points out:
"People must realise that the Diamond War Memorial belongs to all the people of the city and that we have a shared history. For example, young men from both the Catholic/Nationalist 16th Irish Division and the Protestant/Unionist 36th Ulster Division fought and died side by side as one unit in the battle for Messines Ridge in Belgium on the 7th June, 1917."
To date, project researcher, Trevor Temple, has discovered that almost 48% of the 756 names on the memorial belong to members of the Nationalist/Catholic community who died in World War One.
http://www.derryjournal.com/news/local/derry-war-memorial-open-to-public-1-2116901
Two way street, eh?

Second, I don't think he was being asked to make some sort of personal statement by wearing the shirt; rather it was to join with his teammates in the commemoration by Sunderland AFC. As such, players of every Nationality joined in, including his fellow Mackem, John O'Shea.

Indeed, I was at a League game at the weekend where, as well as the customary minute silence and poppies on shirts etc, there was a whole raft of events connected to the local Regiment (Cadet parade, free tickets for Service personnel, bucket collection for Benevolent Fund etc). Players from all over the globe were playing, including an Argentinian. None felt the need to make any kind of personal statement.

P.S. Some further 'food for thought' may be found here:
http://www.diamondwarmemorial.com/
http://www.inishowennews.com/011DunreeWall299.htm

I suppose we will see yourself and the rest of the Unionist community commemorate the 1798 United Irishmen and their fight for liberty and equality against a maligne oppressive and expanding viral empire. Nah I did'nt think so.

Many of the Irish, British and other people who now wear the poppy have slowly donned the cult flower after years of herd bullying.

[Evil Genius]

A few guys sang Aiden McAnnesppi during the minutes silence at solitude on sat. Utv reports it as singing sectarian songs, c***ts should do a bit of research before they bandy the word sectarian about.

Do you think it acceptable to sing non-sectarian songs during a minutes silence, then?

Stupid decision to even attempt it at that match-come off it why do we constantly create situations which would be difficult. How would  a minutes silence for 1916 rising go down at irish league games?

Good question (1916 etc).

But the fact is, the silence was called for, therefore the proper (and classy) thing to do would have been to respect it (imo).

Just as, for instance, when I used to go to Lansdowne Road for Ireland rugby matches, I used to stand and respect the Soldiers Song, even though that was this particular Irishman's National Anthem.

P.S. Seeing as you've intervened in my reply to Charlie Tully, do you think it acceptable to sing non-sectarian songs during a minutes silence for a cause which doesn't appeal to you?

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

The war memorial belongs to all, Catholics and Protestants alike blah blah blah. That's one of the arguments I've seen bandied about the most this weekend - Catholics and Irish nationalists died fighting in France, therefore people of a particular persuasion should "show respect". All well and good. Still don't see how any of that should be used as evidence a young Catholic, nationalist man from Derry should ever be criticised for choosing to not wear a poppy.

Of course there are very understandable reasons why "a young Catholic nationalist man from Derry" [sic] should not wish to wear a Poppy (though I fail to see why age, religion or gender should come into it).

But there are also reasons why a Derry Nationalist might not automatically be averse to the idea (whether he/she actually wears one or not). And one of these is that, contrary to popular understanding (myth even),  the tradition of Derry people serving in the British Armed Forces has never been confined solely to the Unionist tradition.

And since Derry's War Dead came from all parts and traditions of the city, all of its people should be equally permitted to mark, or not mark, Remembrance Sunday entirely as they wish.

Or do you not agree?

Of course. But the poppy isnt the way to do it.

[Fear Bun Na Sceilpe]

A few guys sang Aiden McAnnesppi during the minutes silence at solitude on sat. Utv reports it as singing sectarian songs, c***ts should do a bit of research before they bandy the word sectarian about.

Do you think it acceptable to sing non-sectarian songs during a minutes silence, then?

Stupid decision to even attempt it at that match-come off it why do we constantly create situations which would be difficult. How would  a minutes silence for 1916 rising go down at irish league games?

Good question (1916 etc).

But the fact is, the silence was called for, therefore the proper (and classy) thing to do would have been to respect it (imo).

Just as, for instance, when I used to go to Lansdowne Road for Ireland rugby matches, I used to stand and respect the Soldiers Song, even though that was this particular Irishman's National Anthem.

P.S. Seeing as you've intervened in my reply to Charlie Tully, do you think it acceptable to sing non-sectarian songs during a minutes silence for a cause which doesn't appeal to you?

Probably not the right thing to do, but I do understand the point that was being made. By the way feel free to boo Amhrán na bhFiann at Landsdown if you have the urge, -would be silly to do so though as unlike soccer matches the fans are all mixed in and you might get a whack in the ear

[michaelg]

A few guys sang Aiden McAnnesppi during the minutes silence at solitude on sat. Utv reports it as singing sectarian songs, c***ts should do a bit of research before they bandy the word sectarian about.

Do you think it acceptable to sing non-sectarian songs during a minutes silence, then?

Stupid decision to even attempt it at that match-come off it why do we constantly create situations which would be difficult. How would  a minutes silence for 1916 rising go down at irish league games?

Good question (1916 etc).

But the fact is, the silence was called for, therefore the proper (and classy) thing to do would have been to respect it (imo).

Just as, for instance, when I used to go to Lansdowne Road for Ireland rugby matches, I used to stand and respect the Soldiers Song, even though that was this particular Irishman's National Anthem.

P.S. Seeing as you've intervened in my reply to Charlie Tully, do you think it acceptable to sing non-sectarian songs during a minutes silence for a cause which doesn't appeal to you?

Probably not the right thing to do, but I do understand the point that was being made. By the way feel free to boo Amhrán na bhFiann at Landsdown if you have the urge, -would be silly to do so though as unlike soccer matches the fans are all mixed in and you might get a whack in the ear

Why would he do that if he has just stated that he always respected it at rugby internationals?

[gallsman]

The war memorial belongs to all, Catholics and Protestants alike blah blah blah. That's one of the arguments I've seen bandied about the most this weekend - Catholics and Irish nationalists died fighting in France, therefore people of a particular persuasion should "show respect". All well and good. Still don't see how any of that should be used as evidence a young Catholic, nationalist man from Derry should ever be criticised for choosing to not wear a poppy.

Of course there are very understandable reasons why "a young Catholic nationalist man from Derry" [sic] should not wish to wear a Poppy (though I fail to see why age, religion or gender should come into it).

But there are also reasons why a Derry Nationalist might not automatically be averse to the idea (whether he/she actually wears one or not). And one of these is that, contrary to popular understanding (myth even),  the tradition of Derry people serving in the British Armed Forces has never been confined solely to the Unionist tradition.

And since Derry's War Dead came from all parts and traditions of the city, all of its people should be equally permitted to mark, or not mark, Remembrance Sunday entirely as they wish.

Or do you not agree?

Age and gender of course don't matter. Please don't pretend to be naive and think religion isn't a factor, much as we may want it not to be.

Of course I agree - people can choose to mark or not mark it as they please. However, there's a level of insinuation about the place this weekend that because some Irish nationalists and Irish Catholics fought and died in the service of the British army that people from those sections of society should have no issue with the poppy, or commemorations of British war dead.

A point that is missed frequently in this concerns the raised by the Poppy appeal. The funds go to support current and ex-servicemen/service women and their families, for example, oh I don't know, let's just say the Paras. It's only natural that someone from Derry of all places would not want to support such a cause.

Was brought up on the radio this morning too: http://audioboo.fm/boos/1054166-james-mcclean-under-fire-for-not-wearing-a-poppy-during-a-football-match-freedom-of-choice-or-insulting-the-war-dead#t=2m40s

[Evil Genius]

I suppose we will see yourself and the rest of the Unionist community commemorate the 1798 United Irishmen and their fight for liberty and equality against a maligne oppressive and expanding viral empire. Nah I did'nt think so.

I have no objection to people commemorating 1798, even if I have no particular desire to join them myself.

Just as I don't object to people commemorating eg 1690, despite having no desire to join them, either.

I do, however, buy a Poppy each year, for reasons which are entirely my own business.

Many of the Irish, British and other people who now wear the poppy have slowly donned the cult flower after years of herd bullying.

I take it you have somehow managed to resist this "herd bullying" [sic] so far, eh?

The Spirit of Irish Martyrdom will not die whilst you're still alive, eh MGHU? 

[lynchbhoy]

Why were no players wearing these poppy things in the 70's, 80's or 90's?
Don't recall too many people wearing them in England - mostly only done in the triumphalist 'wee sicks' counties!!
It's been some sensationalist pressurizing ( bullying) to press gang people int wearing these daft looking thing!!

I recall a few years ago in lansdowne road at a rugby international v the jockos , a couple of al-star rugby fans started booing softly during Amhrain Na bhfiann - but stopped after a few glares in their direction from surrounding fans !
They were not wearing any Irish colours ( as was their right and choice) but sporting ulster gear and 'supporting' Ireland.
No one was press ganging them into 'the wearing of the green'.

This poppy lark is revisionist poppycock !!

[red hander]

Don't remember many members of the occupation forces here sent back to Blighty in a box getting the full Wootten Bassett treatment, either ... it's all part of a push by the British establishment to get the population behind the military so less of them will question their illegal presence in Iraq and their totally futile presence in Afghanistan

[theticklemister]

Don't remember many members of the occupation forces here sent back to Blighty in a box getting the full Wootten Bassett treatment, either ... it's all part of a push by the British establishment to get the population behind the military so less of them will question their illegal presence in Iraq and their totally futile presence in Afghanistan

+1