http://www.gov.ie/en/project-ireland-2040/
What are your opinions on Ireland 2040? I think that the bits I've seen and read are ambitious and positive. The question is, how much of it will it be carried out?
What does it say on a united Ireland
Quote from: Hereiam on February 16, 2018, 03:31:17 PM
What does it say on a united Ireland
It only goes to 2040....
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
The economy is going to be grand, which seems like it's goong to make you very sad indeed.
The problem is that grand economy will remain positioned in Dublin and acting as a vacuum for the best young people from the rest of the country. Better that emigration in decades past, but not ideal.
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
The economy is going to be grand, which seems like it's goong to make you very sad indeed.
The problem is that grand economy will remain positioned in Dublin and acting as a vacuum for the best young people from the rest of the country. Better that emigration in decades past, but not ideal.
http://www.themarysue.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/post-64231-this-is-fine-dog-fire-comic-Im-N7mp.png
Global debt is 350% of GDP
In Roscommon terms that's like 6 million sheep on a tuesday sale in Castlerea.
They would stretch back all the way to Williamstown. The level of shite would be Augean
Quote from: OgraAnDun on February 16, 2018, 03:08:10 PM
http://www.gov.ie/en/project-ireland-2040/
What are your opinions on Ireland 2040? I think that the bits I've seen and read are ambitious and positive. The question is, how much of it will it be carried out?
Very little i can imagine, the Irish are too laid back to make any ambitious and positive plans to become a reality.
Quote from: Cunny Funt on February 16, 2018, 04:20:36 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on February 16, 2018, 03:08:10 PM
http://www.gov.ie/en/project-ireland-2040/
What are your opinions on Ireland 2040? I think that the bits I've seen and read are ambitious and positive. The question is, how much of it will it be carried out?
Very little i can imagine, the Irish are too laid back to make any ambitious and positive plans to become a reality.
How did we go from a third-rate country to one of the tech capitals of the world in about 30 years? It requires a tiny bit of planning to overhaul a country as totally as Ireland has been in the last three decades. The cynicism your post typifies is much more the problem at governmental and social level for failures of plans like this than the populace being 'laid back'.
We'll all be rooned says Seafóid before the plan is out.
A first step would be to move Dáil, Government, Top Civil Service, President etc to a new Capital in or around Athlone.
A new 10% Corporate tax rate for designated underdeveloped areas.
Quote from: Rossfan on February 16, 2018, 04:36:23 PM
We'll all be rooned says Seafóid before the plan is out.
A first step would be to move Dáil, Government, Top Civil Service, President etc to a new Capital in or around Athlone.
A new 10% Corporate tax rate for designated underdeveloped areas.
Pension money should be invested regionally instead of speculated on bonds that are overvalued.
Underdeveloped areas shuld get more than tax reductions
Education should be overhauled.
The marketing of Irish food abroad could be improved.
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
The economy is going to be grand, which seems like it's goong to make you very sad indeed.
The problem is that grand economy will remain positioned in Dublin and acting as a vacuum for the best young people from the rest of the country. Better that emigration in decades past, but not ideal.
I think people need to accept that urbanisation is a global trend and the best jobs will be in cities and more and more people will live in cities. People in Ireland need to accept that, if they don't want to live in an urban center, commuting a long way to urban centers will be a way of life. People accept this in say New York. You might live in a nice suburban town but you'll have a good job in New York City and commute 60 to 100 miles. People need to stop fecking and blinding that there's no jobs in their little towneen. There won't ever be. But that does not mean it can't be a lovely little town that's a great place to live. Ireland 2040 needs to be about getting the transport to urban centers right.
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 04:35:12 PM
Quote from: Cunny Funt on February 16, 2018, 04:20:36 PM
Quote from: OgraAnDun on February 16, 2018, 03:08:10 PM
http://www.gov.ie/en/project-ireland-2040/
What are your opinions on Ireland 2040? I think that the bits I've seen and read are ambitious and positive. The question is, how much of it will it be carried out?
Very little i can imagine, the Irish are too laid back to make any ambitious and positive plans to become a reality.
How did we go from a third-rate country to one of the tech capitals of the world in about 30 years? It requires a tiny bit of planning to overhaul a country as totally as Ireland has been in the last three decades. The cynicism your post typifies is much more the problem at governmental and social level for failures of plans like this than the populace being ‘laid back’.
We'll see what becomes a reality in 22 years time and if very little is done you can blame my cynicism if that makes you happy.
Quote from: weareros on February 16, 2018, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
The economy is going to be grand, which seems like it's goong to make you very sad indeed.
The problem is that grand economy will remain positioned in Dublin and acting as a vacuum for the best young people from the rest of the country. Better that emigration in decades past, but not ideal.
I think people need to accept that urbanisation is a global trend and the best jobs will be in cities and more and more people will live in cities. People in Ireland need to accept that, if they don't want to live in an urban center, commuting a long way to urban centers will be a way of life. People accept this in say New York. You might live in a nice suburban town but you'll have a good job in New York City and commute 60 to 100 miles. People need to stop fecking and blinding that there's no jobs in their little towneen. There won't ever be. But that does not mean it can't be a lovely little town that's a great place to live. Ireland 2040 needs to be about getting the transport to urban centers right.
I am not sure about that. Before neoliberalism there was a higher percentage of money in rural areas. There are 2 key things about neoliberalism.
1. Focus on finance
2 No investment in the greater good, no investment in people
FiNance generates "value". It generates jobs. So Dublin and London.
But now finance generates nothing.
In the next system the money will be spread around like it was before neoliberalism.
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 16, 2018, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
The economy is going to be grand, which seems like it's goong to make you very sad indeed.
The problem is that grand economy will remain positioned in Dublin and acting as a vacuum for the best young people from the rest of the country. Better that emigration in decades past, but not ideal.
I think people need to accept that urbanisation is a global trend and the best jobs will be in cities and more and more people will live in cities. People in Ireland need to accept that, if they don't want to live in an urban center, commuting a long way to urban centers will be a way of life. People accept this in say New York. You might live in a nice suburban town but you'll have a good job in New York City and commute 60 to 100 miles. People need to stop fecking and blinding that there's no jobs in their little towneen. There won't ever be. But that does not mean it can't be a lovely little town that's a great place to live. Ireland 2040 needs to be about getting the transport to urban centers right.
I am not sure about that. Before neoliberalism there was a higher percentage of money in rural areas. There are 2 key things about neoliberalism.
1. Focus on finance
2 No investment in the greater good, no investment in people
FiNance generates "value". It generates jobs. So Dublin and London.
But now finance generates nothing.
In the next system the money will be spread around like it was before neoliberalism.
Who does the high-paying jobs that are created, again?
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 06:54:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 16, 2018, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
The economy is going to be grand, which seems like it's goong to make you very sad indeed.
The problem is that grand economy will remain positioned in Dublin and acting as a vacuum for the best young people from the rest of the country. Better that emigration in decades past, but not ideal.
I think people need to accept that urbanisation is a global trend and the best jobs will be in cities and more and more people will live in cities. People in Ireland need to accept that, if they don't want to live in an urban center, commuting a long way to urban centers will be a way of life. People accept this in say New York. You might live in a nice suburban town but you'll have a good job in New York City and commute 60 to 100 miles. People need to stop fecking and blinding that there's no jobs in their little towneen. There won't ever be. But that does not mean it can't be a lovely little town that's a great place to live. Ireland 2040 needs to be about getting the transport to urban centers right.
I am not sure about that. Before neoliberalism there was a higher percentage of money in rural areas. There are 2 key things about neoliberalism.
1. Focus on finance
2 No investment in the greater good, no investment in people
FiNance generates "value". It generates jobs. So Dublin and London.
But now finance generates nothing.
In the next system the money will be spread around like it was before neoliberalism.
Who does the high-paying jobs that are created, again?
When the money drains away from finance it won't be as important. It is all about how the money is distributed.
Maybe 2 in every 5 euros spent in Connacht are spent in Galway now. That is not a law of nature
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 07:03:07 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 06:54:51 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 16, 2018, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
The economy is going to be grand, which seems like it's goong to make you very sad indeed.
The problem is that grand economy will remain positioned in Dublin and acting as a vacuum for the best young people from the rest of the country. Better that emigration in decades past, but not ideal.
I think people need to accept that urbanisation is a global trend and the best jobs will be in cities and more and more people will live in cities. People in Ireland need to accept that, if they don't want to live in an urban center, commuting a long way to urban centers will be a way of life. People accept this in say New York. You might live in a nice suburban town but you'll have a good job in New York City and commute 60 to 100 miles. People need to stop fecking and blinding that there's no jobs in their little towneen. There won't ever be. But that does not mean it can't be a lovely little town that's a great place to live. Ireland 2040 needs to be about getting the transport to urban centers right.
I am not sure about that. Before neoliberalism there was a higher percentage of money in rural areas. There are 2 key things about neoliberalism.
1. Focus on finance
2 No investment in the greater good, no investment in people
FiNance generates "value". It generates jobs. So Dublin and London.
But now finance generates nothing.
In the next system the money will be spread around like it was before neoliberalism.
Who does the high-paying jobs that are created, again?
When the money drains away from finance it won't be as important. It is all about how the money is distributed.
Maybe 2 in every 5 euros spent in Connacht are spent in Galway now. That is not a law of nature
:o
Ok, you've been drinking again haven't you?
Nothing to say Syf?
One of the features of neoliberalism is asset bubbles. House prices in Dublin as a percentage of house prices in Roscommon are way higher than they were in the 70s.
When neoliberalism dies the ratio will come down. Wealth wil be generated from Work rather than house location. That should be good for Roscommon football.
Roscommon have not had a really decent team since Keynesianism collapsed. They haven't won 3 Connacht titles in a row under neoliberalism. That is not grand.
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 16, 2018, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
The economy is going to be grand, which seems like it's goong to make you very sad indeed.
The problem is that grand economy will remain positioned in Dublin and acting as a vacuum for the best young people from the rest of the country. Better that emigration in decades past, but not ideal.
I think people need to accept that urbanisation is a global trend and the best jobs will be in cities and more and more people will live in cities. People in Ireland need to accept that, if they don't want to live in an urban center, commuting a long way to urban centers will be a way of life. People accept this in say New York. You might live in a nice suburban town but you'll have a good job in New York City and commute 60 to 100 miles. People need to stop fecking and blinding that there's no jobs in their little towneen. There won't ever be. But that does not mean it can't be a lovely little town that's a great place to live. Ireland 2040 needs to be about getting the transport to urban centers right.
I am not sure about that. Before neoliberalism there was a higher percentage of money in rural areas. There are 2 key things about neoliberalism.
1. Focus on finance
2 No investment in the greater good, no investment in people
FiNance generates "value". It generates jobs. So Dublin and London.
But now finance generates nothing.
In the next system the money will be spread around like it was before neoliberalism.
I'm not sure I'd call it neoliberalism. The workplace is changing. The days of manufacting jobs that could be setup in the back of beyond are gone. Employers want the best talent, and that means setting up in urban areas. Also the makeup of workplaces is changing and younger people in general want to live and work in areas that are hopping, and that means urban areas, whereas a 50 year may appreciate life in a quieter area. Employers are not setting for what suits the greying generation.
Quote from: weareros on February 16, 2018, 09:01:33 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 06:45:29 PM
Quote from: weareros on February 16, 2018, 05:04:25 PM
Quote from: Syferus on February 16, 2018, 04:10:52 PM
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
The economy is going to be grand, which seems like it's goong to make you very sad indeed.
The problem is that grand economy will remain positioned in Dublin and acting as a vacuum for the best young people from the rest of the country. Better that emigration in decades past, but not ideal.
I think people need to accept that urbanisation is a global trend and the best jobs will be in cities and more and more people will live in cities. People in Ireland need to accept that, if they don't want to live in an urban center, commuting a long way to urban centers will be a way of life. People accept this in say New York. You might live in a nice suburban town but you'll have a good job in New York City and commute 60 to 100 miles. People need to stop fecking and blinding that there's no jobs in their little towneen. There won't ever be. But that does not mean it can't be a lovely little town that's a great place to live. Ireland 2040 needs to be about getting the transport to urban centers right.
I am not sure about that. Before neoliberalism there was a higher percentage of money in rural areas. There are 2 key things about neoliberalism.
1. Focus on finance
2 No investment in the greater good, no investment in people
FiNance generates "value". It generates jobs. So Dublin and London.
But now finance generates nothing.
In the next system the money will be spread around like it was before neoliberalism.
I'm not sure I'd call it neoliberalism. The workplace is changing. The days of manufacting jobs that could be setup in the back of beyond are gone. Employers want the best talent, and that means setting up in urban areas. Also the makeup of workplaces is changing and younger people in general want to live and work in areas that are hopping, and that means urban areas, whereas a 50 year may appreciate life in a quieter area. Employers are not setting for what suits the greying generation.
Neoliberalism is just the name of the system. I was in Ballina a while ago. We were in Penneys. A huge shop. All the stuff is made in China. It has killed a lot of the smaller shops . At the end of the week a truck takes all of the money out of the county. The only benefit to Ballina is maybe 40 low paid jobs and a few managers.
When Ballina had the smaller shops the money stayed in the town a lot longer. That is called the velocity of money, and it is shit now.
https://www.cic.ch/fileadmin/user_upload/anlagefonds/weekly/160426_CIC_Weekly_Markets_ENG.pdf
The plans for Sligo are pretty impressive.
Quote from: seafoid on February 16, 2018, 04:03:56 PM
I don't think any long term projections are credible now. The economic system is going to have another Minsky moment in the next few years . Ireland is drowning in debt. There is no growth driver.
All projections are linear. Today leads smoothly to tomorrow and so on into infinity. Economic system collapses don't work like that. The Department of Finance is still shite. And when AIB collapses again they won't be able to shunt the cost onto the sovereign like last time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TON3PORRDQ
You're going to have to write a ladybird version for people on here who aren't fully up to speed on the international finance Seafóid.
When you refer shunting the debt onto the Sovereign, do you mean the state will stand the bill if the banks go belly-up, as it stood the bill in 2008? Ireland doesn't have its own currency, so the traditional notion of a Sovereign isn't quite accurate. Am I right in reckoning that's what you're referring to, the state's guaranteeing of bank debt in 2008, when you're referring to the Sovereign?
If it worked before, why wouldn't it work again? What's changed?
Do you think the crash will be local, or global? Why?
Did Fine Gael ever say where the additional 1 million new people were coming from?
Last I knew they were all in on abortion.
I smell renua or an alt right nut job extremist.
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 13, 2018, 04:05:13 PM
Did Fine Gael ever say where the additional 1 million new people were coming from?
Last I knew they were all in on abortion.
We have A Dolph, A Dolph, A Dolph here, I tells ya.
No, I'm genuinely interested in finding out. Do you have any answers Sid?
All well and good - but what about the real problem coming down the tracks - the transition to a highly automated economy - an economy where maybe only 10-15% of people will actually be able to work better/cheaper than a robot/computer.
When the unskilled literally cannot "sweep the streets" because robots are doing that - as well as most other manual/low complexity labour - what do they do?
Our entire social system (which has existed since the barter economy was replaced) will be in jeopardy.
By 2100, we could easily see a world where:
- meat is grown in labs (reducing methane will be a driver of this as well as cost).
- crop farming is 90% robotic
- all cleaning services are robotic
- most lower-skilled jobs are automated (i.e. driving taxis or lorries/fast-food cooking/shop staff/site labouring)
- many repetitive task (even if complex) jobs are automated to dramatically reduce head-count (accountancy etc)
- even complex jobs like design may be done via machine learning algorithms rather than teams of architects/engineers.
You cannot have half the population on the dole provided for by the other half. It won't add up. Somewhere along the line in the next century massive social changes will have to occur. While obviously not an exclusively Irish problem - its a problem that will need more than an overnight thinking session to fix.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2018, 04:40:00 PM
All well and good - but what about the real problem coming down the tracks - the transition to a highly automated economy - an economy where maybe only 10-15% of people will actually be able to work better/cheaper than a robot/computer.
When the unskilled literally cannot "sweep the streets" because robots are doing that - as well as most other manual/low complexity labour - what do they do?
Our entire social system (which has existed since the barter economy was replaced) will be in jeopardy.
By 2100, we could easily see a world where:
- meat is grown in labs (reducing methane will be a driver of this as well as cost).
- crop farming is 90% robotic
- all cleaning services are robotic
- most lower-skilled jobs are automated (i.e. driving taxis or lorries/fast-food cooking/shop staff/site labouring)
- many repetitive task (even if complex) jobs are automated to dramatically reduce head-count (accountancy etc)
- even complex jobs like design may be done via machine learning algorithms rather than teams of architects/engineers.
You cannot have half the population on the dole provided for by the other half. It won't add up. Somewhere along the line in the next century massive social changes will have to occur. While obviously not an exclusively Irish problem - its a problem that will need more than an overnight thinking session to fix.
Excellent piece.
We can't have Fine Fail trotting out these ideas without a bit more substance behind them. There doesn't appear to be much thought put into their media spin about Distruptive Technology. Throw in a few buzzwords and then hope that will placate the masses.
Can't help thinking Project 2040 is the media friendly name for something a bit more sinister ;)
Like what?
Compulsory abortion for all white babies?
Only Muslim immigrants allowed on to the Country?
George Soros behind it all?
Lord Lucan to return?
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2018, 05:58:02 PM
Like what?
Compulsory abortion for all white babies?
Only Muslim immigrants allowed on to the Country?
George Soros behind it all?
Lord Lucan to return?
Could be none, could be all. If you read between the lines they would rather import than upskill. Who is this project actually going to benefit then?
Back to my original question. If the government are telling the country that they need 1 million more residents where are they going to get them from?
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 13, 2018, 06:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2018, 05:58:02 PM
Like what?
Compulsory abortion for all white babies?
Only Muslim immigrants allowed on to the Country?
George Soros behind it all?
Lord Lucan to return?
Could be none, could be all. If you read between the lines they would rather import than upskill. Who is this project actually going to benefit then?
Back to my original question. If the government are telling the country that they need 1 million more residents where are they going to get them from?
Bump for Rossfan and Sid Waddel. If you boys are so smart I can't wait for your explanation.
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 17, 2018, 06:34:28 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 13, 2018, 06:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2018, 05:58:02 PM
Like what?
Compulsory abortion for all white babies?
Only Muslim immigrants allowed on to the Country?
George Soros behind it all?
Lord Lucan to return?
Could be none, could be all. If you read between the lines they would rather import than upskill. Who is this project actually going to benefit then?
Back to my original question. If the government are telling the country that they need 1 million more residents where are they going to get them from?
Bump for Rossfan and Sid Waddel. If you boys are so smart I can't wait for your explanation.
Hopefully they get them through inward migration, Adolph.
With a combination of thick, useless c***ts like you leaving and more able, intelligent people coming in from all over the world, the country cannot fail to benefit.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on December 13, 2018, 04:40:00 PM
All well and good - but what about the real problem coming down the tracks - the transition to a highly automated economy - an economy where maybe only 10-15% of people will actually be able to work better/cheaper than a robot/computer.
When the unskilled literally cannot "sweep the streets" because robots are doing that - as well as most other manual/low complexity labour - what do they do?
Our entire social system (which has existed since the barter economy was replaced) will be in jeopardy.
By 2100, we could easily see a world where:
- meat is grown in labs (reducing methane will be a driver of this as well as cost).
- crop farming is 90% robotic
- all cleaning services are robotic
- most lower-skilled jobs are automated (i.e. driving taxis or lorries/fast-food cooking/shop staff/site labouring)
- many repetitive task (even if complex) jobs are automated to dramatically reduce head-count (accountancy etc)
- even complex jobs like design may be done via machine learning algorithms rather than teams of architects/engineers.
You cannot have half the population on the dole provided for by the other half. It won't add up. Somewhere along the line in the next century massive social changes will have to occur. While obviously not an exclusively Irish problem - its a problem that will need more than an overnight thinking session to fix.
The job I'm doing now didn't even exist when I started in college. There'll be plenty of new jobs that pop up with new inventions. There weren't many diesel-engine mechanics in the days of horse-drawn transport.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 17, 2018, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 17, 2018, 06:34:28 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 13, 2018, 06:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2018, 05:58:02 PM
Like what?
Compulsory abortion for all white babies?
Only Muslim immigrants allowed on to the Country?
George Soros behind it all?
Lord Lucan to return?
Could be none, could be all. If you read between the lines they would rather import than upskill. Who is this project actually going to benefit then?
Back to my original question. If the government are telling the country that they need 1 million more residents where are they going to get them from?
Bump for Rossfan and Sid Waddel. If you boys are so smart I can't wait for your explanation.
Hopefully they get them through inward migration, Adolph.
With a combination of thick, useless c***ts like you leaving and more able, intelligent people coming in from all over the world, the country cannot fail to benefit.
No need for the language.
Do you trust the government to provide the services to facilitate this increase. Right now there are issues with schools, hospitals and access to many facilities including housing. Their track record on delivering isn't very good.
You still didn't specify where this extra 1 million people will come from. Is there a plan to seemlessly integrate a 20% increase in population or do they want to create a disjointed Ireland?
As I said, start upskilling and looking after our own population first.
How many emigrants plan to return (even in retirement) to Ireland?
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 18, 2018, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 17, 2018, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 17, 2018, 06:34:28 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 13, 2018, 06:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2018, 05:58:02 PM
Like what?
Compulsory abortion for all white babies?
Only Muslim immigrants allowed on to the Country?
George Soros behind it all?
Lord Lucan to return?
Could be none, could be all. If you read between the lines they would rather import than upskill. Who is this project actually going to benefit then?
Back to my original question. If the government are telling the country that they need 1 million more residents where are they going to get them from?
Bump for Rossfan and Sid Waddel. If you boys are so smart I can't wait for your explanation.
Hopefully they get them through inward migration, Adolph.
With a combination of thick, useless c***ts like you leaving and more able, intelligent people coming in from all over the world, the country cannot fail to benefit.
No need for the language.
Do you trust the government to provide the services to facilitate this increase. Right now there are issues with schools, hospitals and access to many facilities including housing. Their track record on delivering isn't very good.
You still didn't specify where this extra 1 million people will come from. Is there a plan to seemlessly integrate a 20% increase in population or do they want to create a disjointed Ireland?
As I said, start upskilling and looking after our own population first.
You're asking me to specify exactly where 1 million people will come from? Seriously?
I can't tell you exactly how many migrants will come from particular places, but they'll come from everywhere in the world. The biggest number will most likely come from Britain and other European countries based purely on geography and EU free movement.
Captalism is based on perpetual growth.
Birth rates all over Europe have collapsed.
In developed countries, it's estimated that the fertility rate needs to be 2.1 per woman to sustain the same level of population. Ireland has the highest birth rate in the EU as of 2017 yet its still not enough to sustain the same level of population.
If we don't sustain populations, that means people's pensions go tits up and the economy stagnates at best.
Capitalism is ultimately a pyramid scheme because the planet cannot sustain perpetual growth, but that's a different issue and one that will require large-scale international co-operation to address.
It seems axiomatic to me that the main reason for Ireland's recent growth and quick recovery is our historic underdevelopment. We probably have the biggest potential for growth of any European country because of that. We have one of the lowest population densities in Europe.
But we still require significant in-migration to keep growing and developing.
All growing societies experience difficulties and "strains" on public services.
Dublin has always experienced "strain" over the last century because it has has always been a magnet for migration. Long before people came from other countries they were coming from other counties.
There's nothing wrong with "strains" on an economy. It's how you manage those strains that matters. Our problem isn't migration. It's with poor government management of housing, health and water.
A migrant from Donegal is a still a migrant and placed/places "strain" on services and resources.
Should the people of Dublin have cried "no culchies"?
Should the people of Drogheda, Navan, Dunshaughlin, Naas, Newbridge and Portlaoise and Gorey now cry "no Dubs"?
How many people lived in Shenzhen 30 years ago? How many people live there now?
You live in the US, don't you?
For all the problems the US has, and there are many, it's still the world's greatest experiment in the benefits of migration.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on December 18, 2018, 07:26:48 PM
How many emigrants plan to return (even in retirement) to Ireland?
nobody with intelligence anyway
Quote from: Mikhail Prokhorov on December 19, 2018, 01:17:36 AM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on December 18, 2018, 07:26:48 PM
How many emigrants plan to return (even in retirement) to Ireland?
nobody with intelligence anyway
This post didn't need time to age badly.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on December 18, 2018, 07:26:48 PM
How many emigrants plan to return (even in retirement) to Ireland?
Probably about the same as the number of immigrants who will retire outside Ireland.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 19, 2018, 12:25:00 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 18, 2018, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 17, 2018, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 17, 2018, 06:34:28 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 13, 2018, 06:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2018, 05:58:02 PM
Like what?
Compulsory abortion for all white babies?
Only Muslim immigrants allowed on to the Country?
George Soros behind it all?
Lord Lucan to return?
Could be none, could be all. If you read between the lines they would rather import than upskill. Who is this project actually going to benefit then?
Back to my original question. If the government are telling the country that they need 1 million more residents where are they going to get them from?
Bump for Rossfan and Sid Waddel. If you boys are so smart I can't wait for your explanation.
Hopefully they get them through inward migration, Adolph.
With a combination of thick, useless c***ts like you leaving and more able, intelligent people coming in from all over the world, the country cannot fail to benefit.
No need for the language.
Do you trust the government to provide the services to facilitate this increase. Right now there are issues with schools, hospitals and access to many facilities including housing. Their track record on delivering isn't very good.
You still didn't specify where this extra 1 million people will come from. Is there a plan to seemlessly integrate a 20% increase in population or do they want to create a disjointed Ireland?
As I said, start upskilling and looking after our own population first.
You're asking me to specify exactly where 1 million people will come from? Seriously?
I can't tell you exactly how many migrants will come from particular places, but they'll come from everywhere in the world. The biggest number will most likely come from Britain and other European countries based purely on geography and EU free movement.
Captalism is based on perpetual growth.
Birth rates all over Europe have collapsed.
In developed countries, it's estimated that the fertility rate needs to be 2.1 per woman to sustain the same level of population. Ireland has the highest birth rate in the EU as of 2017 yet its still not enough to sustain the same level of population.
If we don't sustain populations, that means people's pensions go tits up and the economy stagnates at best.
Capitalism is ultimately a pyramid scheme because the planet cannot sustain perpetual growth, but that's a different issue and one that will require large-scale international co-operation to address.
It seems axiomatic to me that the main reason for Ireland's recent growth and quick recovery is our historic underdevelopment. We probably have the biggest potential for growth of any European country because of that. We have one of the lowest population densities in Europe.
But we still require significant in-migration to keep growing and developing.
All growing societies experience difficulties and "strains" on public services.
Dublin has always experienced "strain" over the last century because it has has always been a magnet for migration. Long before people came from other countries they were coming from other counties.
There's nothing wrong with "strains" on an economy. It's how you manage those strains that matters. Our problem isn't migration. It's with poor government management of housing, health and water.
A migrant from Donegal is a still a migrant and placed/places "strain" on services and resources.
Should the people of Dublin have cried "no culchies"?
Should the people of Drogheda, Navan, Dunshaughlin, Naas, Newbridge and Portlaoise and Gorey now cry "no Dubs"?
How many people lived in Shenzhen 30 years ago? How many people live there now?
You live in the US, don't you?
For all the problems the US has, and there are many, it's still the world's greatest experiment in the benefits of migration.
This isn't the USA.
Growing and developing for who? Are regular people seeing the benefits? Rather than consolidate and improve services for people the likes of you want to keep the status quo, or worse, to accommodate an influx of new dependants.
Irish people aren't having as many kids because it's too expensive. How about government giving incentives for families, better tax breaks so they can flourish. Instead its pushing abortion.
1 million more is the lower end of the scale. Figures of an Ireland population up to 10 million by 2050 have been mooted.
People from Donegal are Irish. Maybe Santa can bring you a map for Christmas.
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 20, 2018, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 19, 2018, 12:25:00 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 18, 2018, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 17, 2018, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 17, 2018, 06:34:28 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 13, 2018, 06:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2018, 05:58:02 PM
Like what?
Compulsory abortion for all white babies?
Only Muslim immigrants allowed on to the Country?
George Soros behind it all?
Lord Lucan to return?
Could be none, could be all. If you read between the lines they would rather import than upskill. Who is this project actually going to benefit then?
Back to my original question. If the government are telling the country that they need 1 million more residents where are they going to get them from?
Bump for Rossfan and Sid Waddel. If you boys are so smart I can't wait for your explanation.
Hopefully they get them through inward migration, Adolph.
With a combination of thick, useless c***ts like you leaving and more able, intelligent people coming in from all over the world, the country cannot fail to benefit.
No need for the language.
Do you trust the government to provide the services to facilitate this increase. Right now there are issues with schools, hospitals and access to many facilities including housing. Their track record on delivering isn't very good.
You still didn't specify where this extra 1 million people will come from. Is there a plan to seemlessly integrate a 20% increase in population or do they want to create a disjointed Ireland?
As I said, start upskilling and looking after our own population first.
You're asking me to specify exactly where 1 million people will come from? Seriously?
I can't tell you exactly how many migrants will come from particular places, but they'll come from everywhere in the world. The biggest number will most likely come from Britain and other European countries based purely on geography and EU free movement.
Captalism is based on perpetual growth.
Birth rates all over Europe have collapsed.
In developed countries, it's estimated that the fertility rate needs to be 2.1 per woman to sustain the same level of population. Ireland has the highest birth rate in the EU as of 2017 yet its still not enough to sustain the same level of population.
If we don't sustain populations, that means people's pensions go tits up and the economy stagnates at best.
Capitalism is ultimately a pyramid scheme because the planet cannot sustain perpetual growth, but that's a different issue and one that will require large-scale international co-operation to address.
It seems axiomatic to me that the main reason for Ireland's recent growth and quick recovery is our historic underdevelopment. We probably have the biggest potential for growth of any European country because of that. We have one of the lowest population densities in Europe.
But we still require significant in-migration to keep growing and developing.
All growing societies experience difficulties and "strains" on public services.
Dublin has always experienced "strain" over the last century because it has has always been a magnet for migration. Long before people came from other countries they were coming from other counties.
There's nothing wrong with "strains" on an economy. It's how you manage those strains that matters. Our problem isn't migration. It's with poor government management of housing, health and water.
A migrant from Donegal is a still a migrant and placed/places "strain" on services and resources.
Should the people of Dublin have cried "no culchies"?
Should the people of Drogheda, Navan, Dunshaughlin, Naas, Newbridge and Portlaoise and Gorey now cry "no Dubs"?
How many people lived in Shenzhen 30 years ago? How many people live there now?
You live in the US, don't you?
For all the problems the US has, and there are many, it's still the world's greatest experiment in the benefits of migration.
This isn't the USA.
Growing and developing for who? Are regular people seeing the benefits? Rather than consolidate and improve services for people the likes of you want to keep the status quo, or worse, to accommodate an influx of new dependants.
Irish people aren't having as many kids because it's too expensive. How about government giving incentives for families, better tax breaks so they can flourish. Instead its pushing abortion.
1 million more is the lower end of the scale. Figures of an Ireland population up to 10 million by 2050 have been mooted.
People from Donegal are Irish. Maybe Santa can bring you a map for Christmas.
You say this isn't the USA. Where do you live, Adolph?
Em, Ireland has the highest birth rate in Europe.
It's also one of the most expensive countries in Europe.
Can you square that for me?
You did understand that people from Donegal who move to Dublin are
migrants, yes? Well, apparently you don't.
None of the anti-migration nutcases understand this, because none of this is about migration, or "strains" on an economy or on places, or anything like that.
It's about straight up, naked racism. And of course you couldn't miss an opportunity to throw in a bit of misogyny either. Those two always go hand in hand.
It's f**king gas to see you suggest "incentives" for families to have children. The same people who vilify migrants are the same people who most vilify homeless people, people on social welfare and single mothers.
Patrick Pearse said Ireland could sustain a population of 30 million, by the way.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 20, 2018, 12:37:38 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 20, 2018, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 19, 2018, 12:25:00 AM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 18, 2018, 12:58:02 PM
Quote from: sid waddell on December 17, 2018, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 17, 2018, 06:34:28 PM
Quote from: Dolph1 on December 13, 2018, 06:09:40 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on December 13, 2018, 05:58:02 PM
Like what?
Compulsory abortion for all white babies?
Only Muslim immigrants allowed on to the Country?
George Soros behind it all?
Lord Lucan to return?
Could be none, could be all. If you read between the lines they would rather import than upskill. Who is this project actually going to benefit then?
Back to my original question. If the government are telling the country that they need 1 million more residents where are they going to get them from?
Bump for Rossfan and Sid Waddel. If you boys are so smart I can't wait for your explanation.
Hopefully they get them through inward migration, Adolph.
With a combination of thick, useless c***ts like you leaving and more able, intelligent people coming in from all over the world, the country cannot fail to benefit.
No need for the language.
Do you trust the government to provide the services to facilitate this increase. Right now there are issues with schools, hospitals and access to many facilities including housing. Their track record on delivering isn't very good.
You still didn't specify where this extra 1 million people will come from. Is there a plan to seemlessly integrate a 20% increase in population or do they want to create a disjointed Ireland?
As I said, start upskilling and looking after our own population first.
You're asking me to specify exactly where 1 million people will come from? Seriously?
I can't tell you exactly how many migrants will come from particular places, but they'll come from everywhere in the world. The biggest number will most likely come from Britain and other European countries based purely on geography and EU free movement.
Captalism is based on perpetual growth.
Birth rates all over Europe have collapsed.
In developed countries, it's estimated that the fertility rate needs to be 2.1 per woman to sustain the same level of population. Ireland has the highest birth rate in the EU as of 2017 yet its still not enough to sustain the same level of population.
If we don't sustain populations, that means people's pensions go tits up and the economy stagnates at best.
Capitalism is ultimately a pyramid scheme because the planet cannot sustain perpetual growth, but that's a different issue and one that will require large-scale international co-operation to address.
It seems axiomatic to me that the main reason for Ireland's recent growth and quick recovery is our historic underdevelopment. We probably have the biggest potential for growth of any European country because of that. We have one of the lowest population densities in Europe.
But we still require significant in-migration to keep growing and developing.
All growing societies experience difficulties and "strains" on public services.
Dublin has always experienced "strain" over the last century because it has has always been a magnet for migration. Long before people came from other countries they were coming from other counties.
There's nothing wrong with "strains" on an economy. It's how you manage those strains that matters. Our problem isn't migration. It's with poor government management of housing, health and water.
A migrant from Donegal is a still a migrant and placed/places "strain" on services and resources.
Should the people of Dublin have cried "no culchies"?
Should the people of Drogheda, Navan, Dunshaughlin, Naas, Newbridge and Portlaoise and Gorey now cry "no Dubs"?
How many people lived in Shenzhen 30 years ago? How many people live there now?
You live in the US, don't you?
For all the problems the US has, and there are many, it's still the world's greatest experiment in the benefits of migration.
This isn't the USA.
Growing and developing for who? Are regular people seeing the benefits? Rather than consolidate and improve services for people the likes of you want to keep the status quo, or worse, to accommodate an influx of new dependants.
Irish people aren't having as many kids because it's too expensive. How about government giving incentives for families, better tax breaks so they can flourish. Instead its pushing abortion.
1 million more is the lower end of the scale. Figures of an Ireland population up to 10 million by 2050 have been mooted.
People from Donegal are Irish. Maybe Santa can bring you a map for Christmas.
You say this isn't the USA. Where do you live, Adolph?
Em, Ireland has the highest birth rate in Europe.
It's also one of the most expensive countries in Europe.
Can you square that for me?
You did understand that people from Donegal who move to Dublin are migrants, yes? Well, apparently you don't.
None of the anti-migration nutcases understand this, because none of this is about migration, or "strains" on an economy or on places, or anything like that.
It's about straight up, naked racism. And of course you couldn't miss an opportunity to throw in a bit of misogyny either. Those two always go hand in hand.
It's f**king gas to see you suggest "incentives" for families to have children. The same people who vilify migrants are the same people who most vilify homeless people, people on social welfare and single mothers.
Patrick Pearse said Ireland could sustain a population of 30 million, by the way.
Good man sid. When losing an argument defer to accusations of racism and misogyny. It's all you got.
Wow, what a devastating, well argued out, response, Adolph. You really showed me. ;D
Sid, J70 et al, you remind me of the BBC. Every time they have an expert on to describe the depredations of Brexit they feel the need to give equal time to a nutcase to present what they perceive to be the balancing case – everything will be fine because we're Britain or whatever. The two arguments don't carry equal weight. One is logic and facts; the other is not to be given the oxygen of attention.
I submit that's what you're doing with this nutjob and I suggest you do what we do with Seamus – roll our cyber eyes and move on to the sensible stuff.
Quote from: Hardy on December 20, 2018, 05:01:05 PM
... move on to the sensible stuff.
You mean have no actual thoughts of your own. Why bother when Fine Gael do the thinking for you ;)
Quote from: Hardy on December 20, 2018, 05:01:05 PM
Sid, J70 et al, you remind me of the BBC. Every time they have an expert on to describe the depredations of Brexit they feel the need to give equal time to a nutcase to present what they perceive to be the balancing case – everything will be fine because we're Britain or whatever. The two arguments don't carry equal weight. One is logic and facts; the other is not to be given the oxygen of attention.
I submit that's what you're doing with this nutjob and I suggest you do what we do with Seamus – roll our cyber eyes and move on to the sensible stuff.
Sensible post - and you're right.
The far right
never debate from a position of good faith. They "engage" based on outright lies and propaganda and never answer questions which blow apart their lies and propaganda.
You can't "out-debate" them - because they don't debate - that's their whole strategy - they just throw as much bullshit out there as they possibly can and see what sticks.
David Frum's recent article in The Atlantic on the regret he feels at platforming Steve Bannon is am enlightening read about this.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/bannon-frum-munk-debate-what-really-happened/574867/
But it's also why the far right are so insidious and difficult to combat - in any society, there are a significant number of people who are only too happy to dispense with reality-based worldviews in favour of believing outright lies and propaganda. The posters you refer to are certainly in this category.
The last time there was an international rise of the far-right and all their associated lies and propaganda, it sadly took a World War to defeat it, and for it to be completely discredited and humiliated.
These far right war mongerers are definitely on the march again.
Quote from: sid waddell on December 20, 2018, 06:18:24 PM
The far right never debate from a position of good faith. They "engage" based on outright lies and propaganda and never answer questions which blow apart their lies and propaganda.
You can't "out-debate" them - because they don't debate - that's their whole strategy - they just throw as much bullshit out there as they possibly can and see what sticks.
David Frum's recent article in The Atlantic on the regret he feels at platforming Steve Bannon is am enlightening read about this.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/11/bannon-frum-munk-debate-what-really-happened/574867/
But it's also why the far right are so insidious and difficult to combat - in any society, there are a significant number of people who are only too happy to dispense with reality-based worldviews in favour of believing outright lies and propaganda. The posters you refer to are certainly in this category.
The last time there was an international rise of the far-right and all their associated lies and propaganda, it sadly took a World War to defeat it, and for it to be completely discredited and humiliated.
These far right war mongerers are definitely on the march again.
Hilarious!! ;D
It's world war 3!! "Lies" !! "Propoganda"!!
Jesus you lot are pathetic little men
Jasus Sid but you're fairly outing that clown anyway😀