The same-sex marriage referendum debate

[J70]

I'm not trying to kid anyone - I mean what I say. I have detest nor hatred for any person. I detest and hate sin. Adultery, domestic violence, sodomy.... and lots more.

I would argue that your intolerance is a bigger sin, but there you go.

Also, apparently the word 'sodomy' didn't appear in any original Jewish or Christian texts. Your deliberate and persistent use of the word, in place of gay sex, allows other meanings to be derived from the word. For example sodomy also has been used to describe sex with an animal and the Sodomites in the Bible were also believed to have been pedophiles.

Sorry Iceman

You do know Sodomy refers to Oral sex too? Where does sodomy fit in between married hetro couples??
Even under ur definition of sodomy, which I'm presuming is anal sex, what do u say about a heterosexual couple who have anal sex?

Wrong from what standpoint Mayo4Sam? I've been told that religion shouldn't be part of the conversation. So I presented the scientific/biological dangers of sodomy. I challenged the other side of the discussion to address it but they have not.  It has been discussed that Science cannot prove either way whether someone is conceived/born gay or murture has a bigger part to play. Yet most people are adamant gay people are born that way. Homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder until the end of the last century but you'll find no scientific evidence as to why it was removed. Tell me when has the scientific community ever "bent over" to a lobby?

From a religious/catholic teaching perspective if you are genuinely interested the teaching is the same as it's always been. Sex is for procreation - It must be open to life. It must be faithful - between a husband and wife. It must be consensual - it cannot be forced upon one party or the other.

So where do oral sex and hand jobs and all the rest fall in the catholic good sex/bad sex divide?

[muppet]

I'm not trying to kid anyone - I mean what I say. I have detest nor hatred for any person. I detest and hate sin. Adultery, domestic violence, sodomy.... and lots more.

I would argue that your intolerance is a bigger sin, but there you go.

Also, apparently the word 'sodomy' didn't appear in any original Jewish or Christian texts. Your deliberate and persistent use of the word, in place of gay sex, allows other meanings to be derived from the word. For example sodomy also has been used to describe sex with an animal and the Sodomites in the Bible were also believed to have been pedophiles.

Sorry Iceman

You do know Sodomy refers to Oral sex too? Where does sodomy fit in between married hetro couples??
Even under ur definition of sodomy, which I'm presuming is anal sex, what do u say about a heterosexual couple who have anal sex?

Wrong from what standpoint Mayo4Sam? I've been told that religion shouldn't be part of the conversation. So I presented the scientific/biological dangers of sodomy. I challenged the other side of the discussion to address it but they have not.  It has been discussed that Science cannot prove either way whether someone is conceived/born gay or murture has a bigger part to play. Yet most people are adamant gay people are born that way. Homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder until the end of the last century but you'll find no scientific evidence as to why it was removed. Tell me when has the scientific community ever "bent over" to a lobby?

From a religious/catholic teaching perspective if you are genuinely interested the teaching is the same as it's always been. Sex is for procreation - It must be open to life. It must be faithful - between a husband and wife. It must be consensual - it cannot be forced upon one party or the other.

You have said that this is the reason you are against it. Yet you are a big fan of UFC which has far greater, immediate and obvious scientific/biological dangers.

As for your not too subtle suggestions that gay people aren't born that way, or that be gay might be a psychological disorder, Iceman what is that all about? If you don't like gays, fine. But there is no need to be offensive strongly suggesting that it is a psychological disorder, which disappeared merely due to a lobby.

And for all of your references to scientific evidence, your are constantly preaching a religious dogma that has no scientific evidence whatsoever.

[The Iceman]

I'm not trying to kid anyone - I mean what I say. I have detest nor hatred for any person. I detest and hate sin. Adultery, domestic violence, sodomy.... and lots more.

I would argue that your intolerance is a bigger sin, but there you go.

Also, apparently the word 'sodomy' didn't appear in any original Jewish or Christian texts. Your deliberate and persistent use of the word, in place of gay sex, allows other meanings to be derived from the word. For example sodomy also has been used to describe sex with an animal and the Sodomites in the Bible were also believed to have been pedophiles.

Sorry Iceman

You do know Sodomy refers to Oral sex too? Where does sodomy fit in between married hetro couples??
Even under ur definition of sodomy, which I'm presuming is anal sex, what do u say about a heterosexual couple who have anal sex?

Wrong from what standpoint Mayo4Sam? I've been told that religion shouldn't be part of the conversation. So I presented the scientific/biological dangers of sodomy. I challenged the other side of the discussion to address it but they have not.  It has been discussed that Science cannot prove either way whether someone is conceived/born gay or murture has a bigger part to play. Yet most people are adamant gay people are born that way. Homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder until the end of the last century but you'll find no scientific evidence as to why it was removed. Tell me when has the scientific community ever "bent over" to a lobby?

From a religious/catholic teaching perspective if you are genuinely interested the teaching is the same as it's always been. Sex is for procreation - It must be open to life. It must be faithful - between a husband and wife. It must be consensual - it cannot be forced upon one party or the other.

So where do oral sex and hand jobs and all the rest fall in the catholic good sex/bad sex divide?

what does it matter J70 if you aren't Catholic?

[The Iceman]

I'm not trying to kid anyone - I mean what I say. I have detest nor hatred for any person. I detest and hate sin. Adultery, domestic violence, sodomy.... and lots more.

I would argue that your intolerance is a bigger sin, but there you go.

Also, apparently the word 'sodomy' didn't appear in any original Jewish or Christian texts. Your deliberate and persistent use of the word, in place of gay sex, allows other meanings to be derived from the word. For example sodomy also has been used to describe sex with an animal and the Sodomites in the Bible were also believed to have been pedophiles.

Sorry Iceman

You do know Sodomy refers to Oral sex too? Where does sodomy fit in between married hetro couples??
Even under ur definition of sodomy, which I'm presuming is anal sex, what do u say about a heterosexual couple who have anal sex?

Wrong from what standpoint Mayo4Sam? I've been told that religion shouldn't be part of the conversation. So I presented the scientific/biological dangers of sodomy. I challenged the other side of the discussion to address it but they have not.  It has been discussed that Science cannot prove either way whether someone is conceived/born gay or murture has a bigger part to play. Yet most people are adamant gay people are born that way. Homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder until the end of the last century but you'll find no scientific evidence as to why it was removed. Tell me when has the scientific community ever "bent over" to a lobby?

From a religious/catholic teaching perspective if you are genuinely interested the teaching is the same as it's always been. Sex is for procreation - It must be open to life. It must be faithful - between a husband and wife. It must be consensual - it cannot be forced upon one party or the other.

You have said that this is the reason you are against it. Yet you are a big fan of UFC which has far greater, immediate and obvious scientific/biological dangers.

As for your not too subtle suggestions that gay people aren't born that way, or that be gay might be a psychological disorder, Iceman what is that all about? If you don't like gays, fine. But there is no need to be offensive strongly suggesting that it is a psychological disorder, which disappeared merely due to a lobby.

And for all of your references to scientific evidence, your are constantly preaching a religious dogma that has no scientific evidence whatsoever.

Muppet you asked me to remove religion. I did. I presented other arguments which are not religious which you failed to address.
Homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder. That has been removed in recent times but for no scientific reason. It was removed based on a lobby. I don't know why stating that would be offensive? Science has not proven either way - bringing that to the Born versus Made part of the discussion should not be offensive either.

The UFC and combat sports has nothing to do with the discussion. More deflections...

[muppet]

Muppet you asked me to remove religion. I did. I presented other arguments which are not religious which you failed to address.
Homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder. That has been removed in recent times but for no scientific reason. It was removed based on a lobby. I don't know why stating that would be offensive? Science has not proven either way - bringing that to the Born versus Made part of the discussion should not be offensive either.

The UFC and combat sports has nothing to do with the discussion. More deflections...

Defections?

You are arguing on the basis of old psychology.

According to this it was dropped as a Psychological Disorder as there was no empirical evidence that it was a disorder. Here is what it says: Consequently, while a minority today believes homosexuality is a mental disorder, the body of current research and clinical literature supports a consensus that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are healthy variations of human sexuality, and is reflected in the official positions of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association.

You then argue that you are against homosexuality on the basis that it could do damage to the body, but mentioning your love of UFC is a deflection? It is hypocrisy not deflection.

[The Iceman]

Muppet you asked me to remove religion. I did. I presented other arguments which are not religious which you failed to address.
Homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder. That has been removed in recent times but for no scientific reason. It was removed based on a lobby. I don't know why stating that would be offensive? Science has not proven either way - bringing that to the Born versus Made part of the discussion should not be offensive either.

The UFC and combat sports has nothing to do with the discussion. More deflections...

Defections?

You are arguing on the basis of old psychology.

According to this it was dropped as a Psychological Disorder as there was no empirical evidence that it was a disorder. Here is what it says: Consequently, while a minority today believes homosexuality is a mental disorder, the body of current research and clinical literature supports a consensus that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are healthy variations of human sexuality, and is reflected in the official positions of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association.

You then argue that you are against homosexuality on the basis that it could do damage to the body, but mentioning your love of UFC is a deflection? It is hypocrisy not deflection.

Muppet your UFC argument carries zero weight.
There are 50,000 new cases of AIDS in America alone. 50,000!
An overwhelming 70% of those are amoung gay and bisexual men who have sex with other men.
That doesn't factor in the other STDs that are transmitted.

Its like arguing that lung cancer is bad and not blaming cigarettes. You sound like the tobacco lobby of the 80s.
Gay sex is spreading diseases at a rapid rate throughout the world.

[muppet]

Muppet you asked me to remove religion. I did. I presented other arguments which are not religious which you failed to address.
Homosexuality was listed as a psychological disorder. That has been removed in recent times but for no scientific reason. It was removed based on a lobby. I don't know why stating that would be offensive? Science has not proven either way - bringing that to the Born versus Made part of the discussion should not be offensive either.

The UFC and combat sports has nothing to do with the discussion. More deflections...

Defections?

You are arguing on the basis of old psychology.

According to this it was dropped as a Psychological Disorder as there was no empirical evidence that it was a disorder. Here is what it says: Consequently, while a minority today believes homosexuality is a mental disorder, the body of current research and clinical literature supports a consensus that same-sex sexual and romantic attractions, feelings, and behaviors are healthy variations of human sexuality, and is reflected in the official positions of the American Psychiatric Association and the American Psychological Association.

You then argue that you are against homosexuality on the basis that it could do damage to the body, but mentioning your love of UFC is a deflection? It is hypocrisy not deflection.

Muppet your UFC argument carries zero weight.
There are 50,000 new cases of AIDS in America alone. 50,000!
An overwhelming 70% of those are amoung gay and bisexual men who have sex with other men.
That doesn't factor in the other STDs that are transmitted.

Its like arguing that lung cancer is bad and not blaming cigarettes. You sound like the tobacco lobby of the 80s.
Gay sex is spreading diseases at a rapid rate throughout the world.

Wow! You take a single statistic for AIDS and turn it into that statement. Tell me, is 15% of South Africa gay? AIDS doesn't discriminate, unlike you.

Lung cancer is bad and cigarettes are to blame. That is the disease and the cause in the same sentence.

AIDS is bad and gays are not to blame, because gays do not cause AIDS. You must harbour some very serious prejudices to make that connection.

More accurately unsafe sex is the main means of transmitting AIDS, but it doesn't cause AIDS. Condoms prevent AIDS transmission, but guess which organisation bans them? By your logic The Catholic Church is as much to blame as gays are (and far more to blame in my eyes), except gays and everyone else, are merely doing what comes naturally to them. The Church has no such excuse.

Back to the UFC, you listed various risk of 'sodomy', not merely AIDS. Some of them weren't a patch on the dangers of UFC.

[armaghniac]

Back to the UFC, you listed various risk of 'sodomy', not merely AIDS. Some of them weren't a patch on the dangers of UFC.

This UFC that is worse than sodomy, I take it that is that Ultimate fight crap and not the Ulster Football Championship>

[muppet]

Back to the UFC, you listed various risk of 'sodomy', not merely AIDS. Some of them weren't a patch on the dangers of UFC.

This UFC that is worse than sodomy, I take it that is that Ultimate fight crap and not the Ulster Football Championship>

I can see the connection. 

[The Iceman]

Wow! You take a single statistic for AIDS and turn it into that statement. Tell me, is 15% of South Africa gay? AIDS doesn't discriminate, unlike you.

Lung cancer is bad and cigarettes are to blame. That is the disease and the cause in the same sentence.

AIDS is bad and gays are not to blame, because gays do not cause AIDS. You must harbour some very serious prejudices to make that connection.

More accurately unsafe sex is the main means of transmitting AIDS, but it doesn't cause AIDS. Condoms prevent AIDS transmission, but guess which organisation bans them? By your logic The Catholic Church is as much to blame as gays are (and far more to blame in my eyes), except gays and everyone else, are merely doing what comes naturally to them. The Church has no such excuse.

Back to the UFC, you listed various risk of 'sodomy', not merely AIDS. Some of them weren't a patch on the dangers of UFC.

Cigarettes are not the only cause of Lung cancer. Gay sex is not the only transmitter of Aids - both are to blame heavily for the occurrences of the disease. My own feelings have nothing to do with the discussion - please play the ball, not the man.

The Catholic Church bans the use of condoms in traditional marriage. Amoung exclusive marriages of men and women who are having sex for pro-creation. The Catholic Church is not banning the use of condoms for sodomy amoung gay men. Nice switch there but we're not falling for it....

Comparing the UFC to sodomy then you should compare it to all other sports where the risk of injury is equally real. But thats a sport not a disorder. UFC fighters are tested for any ailments or diseases and are not allowed to compete if any exist. They don't go out amd mix their bodily fluids with 7000 other fighters in their life time...

[muppet]

Wow! You take a single statistic for AIDS and turn it into that statement. Tell me, is 15% of South Africa gay? AIDS doesn't discriminate, unlike you.

Lung cancer is bad and cigarettes are to blame. That is the disease and the cause in the same sentence.

AIDS is bad and gays are not to blame, because gays do not cause AIDS. You must harbour some very serious prejudices to make that connection.

More accurately unsafe sex is the main means of transmitting AIDS, but it doesn't cause AIDS. Condoms prevent AIDS transmission, but guess which organisation bans them? By your logic The Catholic Church is as much to blame as gays are (and far more to blame in my eyes), except gays and everyone else, are merely doing what comes naturally to them. The Church has no such excuse.

Back to the UFC, you listed various risk of 'sodomy', not merely AIDS. Some of them weren't a patch on the dangers of UFC.

Cigarettes are not the only cause of Lung cancer. Gay sex is not the only transmitter of Aids - both are to blame heavily for the occurrences of the disease. My own feelings have nothing to do with the discussion - please play the ball, not the man.

The Catholic Church bans the use of condoms in traditional marriage. Amoung exclusive marriages of men and women who are having sex for pro-creation. The Catholic Church is not banning the use of condoms for sodomy amoung gay men. Nice switch there but we're not falling for it....

Comparing the UFC to sodomy then you should compare it to all other sports where the risk of injury is equally real. But thats a sport not a disorder. UFC fighters are tested for any ailments or diseases and are not allowed to compete if any exist. They don't go out amd mix their bodily fluids with 7000 other fighters in their life time...

But your feelings completely distort the argument. You are comparing cigarettes, a proven cause of cancer, with unsafe sex. And on that basis you blame gays for AIDS. Incredible.

Then you argue that the Catholic Church, which bans condoms, doesn't ban condoms for gays. But it bans homosexuality. But more importantly the Church banning condoms helps spread AIDS in Africa. That is a fact. But you blame gays for spreading AIDS and as usual turn a blind eye to the Church's sins on this matter.

Finally, yes the risk of injury is real in other sports. But I am not the one protesting against anal sex because of the risk of injury, am I?

[The Iceman]

Muppet you're being quite childish in your arguments.
I lay out all the scientifically proven dangers of sodomy. Listed out for you to address. The cancers, the STDs, The spread of Aids and HIV.
Your response: Well fighters get hurt in the UFC.....

[muppet]

Muppet you're being quite childish in your arguments.
I lay out all the scientifically proven dangers of sodomy. Listed out for you to address. The cancers, the STDs, The spread of Aids and HIV.
Your response: Well fighters get hurt in the UFC.....

This was your post:

Biologically it is wrong. And I'll ask you to present the opposite case if you disagree. The arse is an exit. For disposable of fecal matter. Human generative organs are perfectly matched. The matching only takes place in heterosexual coupling.  When the arse is used to replace the vagina it is clearly being used for something it was not intended. This causes physical harm. There are substances in seminal fluid called immuno-regulatory macromolecules that send out signals that are understood by the female body. When deposited elsewhere these signals are misunderstood and cause a 4000% increase in the risk of anal cancer.(Journal of the American Medical Association 1988-90)
anal sex increases the risk of rectal prolapse, perforation that can go septic, the chlap, genital herpes, genital warts, gonorrhea, viral hepatiitis......
Gay men are 445 more likely to contract Aids/HIV. Gay men account for 79% of all new HIV cases, 72% of primary and secondary syphilis cases and a significant % of other STDs.

Today more money is spent on the cure for Aids than for Lung Cancer. Yet we rationalize sodomy much like the tobacco industry rationalize smoking...

So from a purely biological argument  - whats right about sodomy?

You completely ignored the mention of condoms as a) a solution to most of the above and b) a greater cause of AIDS in Africa thanks to the Catholic Church's banning of them.

You still pretend not to see the UFC argument. Bashing in a guys head for sports is ok, but gays expressing love for each other, now that is wrong.

I notice you dropped your argument that homosexuality was a psychological disorder. I hope that is the last we hear of that particular lie.

[The Iceman]

Muppet you're being quite childish in your arguments.
I lay out all the scientifically proven dangers of sodomy. Listed out for you to address. The cancers, the STDs, The spread of Aids and HIV.
Your response: Well fighters get hurt in the UFC.....

This was your post:

Biologically it is wrong. And I'll ask you to present the opposite case if you disagree. The arse is an exit. For disposable of fecal matter. Human generative organs are perfectly matched. The matching only takes place in heterosexual coupling.  When the arse is used to replace the vagina it is clearly being used for something it was not intended. This causes physical harm. There are substances in seminal fluid called immuno-regulatory macromolecules that send out signals that are understood by the female body. When deposited elsewhere these signals are misunderstood and cause a 4000% increase in the risk of anal cancer.(Journal of the American Medical Association 1988-90)
anal sex increases the risk of rectal prolapse, perforation that can go septic, the chlap, genital herpes, genital warts, gonorrhea, viral hepatiitis......
Gay men are 445 more likely to contract Aids/HIV. Gay men account for 79% of all new HIV cases, 72% of primary and secondary syphilis cases and a significant % of other STDs.

Today more money is spent on the cure for Aids than for Lung Cancer. Yet we rationalize sodomy much like the tobacco industry rationalize smoking...

So from a purely biological argument  - whats right about sodomy?

You completely ignored the mention of condoms as a) a solution to most of the above and b) a greater cause of AIDS in Africa thanks to the Catholic Church's banning of them.

You still pretend not to see the UFC argument. Bashing in a guys head for sports is ok, but gays expressing love for each other, now that is wrong.

I notice you dropped your argument that homosexuality was a psychological disorder. I hope that is the last we hear of that particular lie.

This is where you twist things Muppet.
Are you declaring that the Catholic Church is responsible for the spread of Aids because they don't allow Catholics to use condoms?

Let me address your ridiculous logic. The Condom/Aids debate is focused on Africa. I gave you statistics from America, where I live, where every year 35,000 men are diagnosed with Aids caused by sodomy. These men are not Catholic. Some may identify themselves culturally as Catholics but they are not in communion with the Catholic Church by the very virtue of their lifestyle.

Combat sports are not all about bashing people's heads in, You show an uninformed, naive opinion. This discussion does not need to be about the UFC or your misunderstanding of it.

And your link about the psychology of sodomy didn't prove anything. Opinion changed. Why? New scientific facts? Or because of popular opinion? Or a gay lobby?

But please continue with your spinning atoms...

[laoislad]

Wow! You take a single statistic for AIDS and turn it into that statement. Tell me, is 15% of South Africa gay? AIDS doesn't discriminate, unlike you.

Lung cancer is bad and cigarettes are to blame. That is the disease and the cause in the same sentence.

AIDS is bad and gays are not to blame, because gays do not cause AIDS. You must harbour some very serious prejudices to make that connection.

More accurately unsafe sex is the main means of transmitting AIDS, but it doesn't cause AIDS. Condoms prevent AIDS transmission, but guess which organisation bans them? By your logic The Catholic Church is as much to blame as gays are (and far more to blame in my eyes), except gays and everyone else, are merely doing what comes naturally to them. The Church has no such excuse.

Back to the UFC, you listed various risk of 'sodomy', not merely AIDS. Some of them weren't a patch on the dangers of UFC.

Cigarettes are not the only cause of Lung cancer. Gay sex is not the only transmitter of Aids - both are to blame heavily for the occurrences of the disease. My own feelings have nothing to do with the discussion - please play the ball, not the man.

The Catholic Church bans the use of condoms in traditional marriage. Amoung exclusive marriages of men and women who are having sex for pro-creation. The Catholic Church is not banning the use of condoms for sodomy amoung gay men. Nice switch there but we're not falling for it....

Comparing the UFC to sodomy then you should compare it to all other sports where the risk of injury is equally real. But thats a sport not a disorder. UFC fighters are tested for any ailments or diseases and are not allowed to compete if any exist. They don't go out amd mix their bodily fluids with 7000 other fighters in their life time...

Do you ever have sex just to get the ride or are you looking to impregnate her every time?