The same-sex marriage referendum debate

[Keyboard Warrior]

Seeking clarification:
Firstly, pardon my ignorance on the matter.
Does passing constitution change on allowing gay marriage change gay couples adoptive rights?  Most of the arguments on the 'No' side seem to be focusing on children having a mother and a father.
Can gay couples adopt at present? And will this change under the proposed change?

[macdanger2]

Does passing constitution change on allowing gay marriage change gay couples adoptive rights?  Most of the arguments on the 'No' side seem to be focusing on children having a mother and a father.
Can gay couples adopt at present? And will this change under the proposed change?

In short No, there will be no change to adoption rights.

Up until a couple of months ago, any married couple or single (homosexual or heterosexual) person was allowed to adopt a child. If an unmarried (opposite or same-sex) couple adopted a child, only one of the couple could be recognised as the legal guardian and their partner had no rights.

Under The Children and Family Relationships Bill 2015, this was changed such that both unmarried persons in an adopting couple could be recognised as parents.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/family-law-bill-hailed-as-major-step-1.2107649

[muppet]

Does passing constitution change on allowing gay marriage change gay couples adoptive rights?  Most of the arguments on the 'No' side seem to be focusing on children having a mother and a father.
Can gay couples adopt at present? And will this change under the proposed change?

In short No, there will be no change to adoption rights.

Up until a couple of months ago, any married couple or single (homosexual or heterosexual) person was allowed to adopt a child. If an unmarried (opposite or same-sex) couple adopted a child, only one of the couple could be recognised as the legal guardian and their partner had no rights.

Under The Children and Family Relationships Bill 2015, this was changed such that both unmarried persons in an adopting couple could be recognised as parents.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/family-law-bill-hailed-as-major-step-1.2107649

And even if that was the issue, was it better to leave the child in an orphanage?

The bogus argument from the No side is that it will somehow adversely affect children that would otherwise be in a 'normal' family. How does allowing a gay couple adopt, remove children from a 'normal' environment?

(By normal I mean the happily-ever-after married man-woman dream pushed by the No side).

[seafoid]

 This is a really interesting referendum. Unimaginable 20 years ago.

Bringing gay people out of the shadows and treating them as normal citizens. That's a big change.
and the other thing is the pressure on catholicism to declare its position. Saw an issue of Alive! today and it was like reading something out of the Bible Belt. The problem with the change in the status of the Church as "ours" to something relevant to a much smaller subgroup than the general population is the change in the memes- far less tolerant and looks much more extremist.

Very little dúthracht. Not much confidence either I would say.   

[ballinaman]

Any opinion polls recently or due? Would have thought YES would have been 80-20 at least a few weeks ago but can see it being a little bit more twitchy as it gets closer....silent NO vote might be larger than anticipated.

[macdanger2]

The last one I saw was roughly 78% - 15% with the rest undecided.

It'll be interesting to see if there's a "shy Tory" vote

[screenexile]

I see the Church out scaremongering again this morning (What the Church scaremongering? That's never happened before).

Obviously the Yes vote means that Accord have had their funding cut... If we're going to deal in facts let's not talk about the fact they cost €200 per couple and are a pile of absolute shite then!!

No money better spent than listening to a celibate tell me how communication and compromise will be the two most important things in my relationship... aye big lad I can read books too and I'm actually in a proper relationship unlike yourself!!!

[ballinaman]

The last one I saw was roughly 78% - 15% with the rest undecided.

It'll be interesting to see if there's a "shy Tory" vote

Course there will be, YES is all over social media but older/silent vote must be there. It'll be interesting to see the turn out, will the youth vote and actually get off their arses? Happened in Scotland for the  indy ref there, will it happen in Ireland?

[seafoid]

Any opinion polls recently or due? Would have thought YES would have been 80-20 at least a few weeks ago but can see it being a little bit more twitchy as it gets closer....silent NO vote might be larger than anticipated.

Will depend on % in age groups voting. Older voters are more likely to vote no and more likely to vote.
But maybe women are more likely to vote yes.

[andoireabu]

I see the Church out scaremongering again this morning (What the Church scaremongering? That's never happened before).

Obviously the Yes vote means that Accord have had their funding cut... If we're going to deal in facts let's not talk about the fact they cost €200 per couple and are a pile of absolute shite then!!

No money better spent than listening to a celibate tell me how communication and compromise will be the two most important things in my relationship... aye big lad I can read books too and I'm actually in a proper relationship unlike yourself!!!

have this shite to do myself in a couple of months but ours is 120 euro. Between that and registering out intent to marry we are out 320 quid for no good reason. And thats before we even borrow the church for an hour. Another 350 quid!!

[muppet]

I see the Church out scaremongering again this morning (What the Church scaremongering? That's never happened before).

Obviously the Yes vote means that Accord have had their funding cut... If we're going to deal in facts let's not talk about the fact they cost €200 per couple and are a pile of absolute shite then!!

No money better spent than listening to a celibate tell me how communication and compromise will be the two most important things in my relationship... aye big lad I can read books too and I'm actually in a proper relationship unlike yourself!!!

have this shite to do myself in a couple of months but ours is 120 euro. Between that and registering out intent to marry we are out 320 quid for no good reason. And thats before we even borrow the church for an hour. Another 350 quid!!

Now you see why Eamon Martin's threat of not facilitating the civil registration at church marriages, will never happen.

Also why should the State pay for a course, forced upon couples by the church, in return for allowing the couple the privilege of renting a church?

[deiseach]

The most recent opinion poll I could locate said 72% Yes 20% No. I think people lie to opinion pollsters, we saw it in the recent UK elections. God knows why... But it would take an astonishing level of mendacity for this to be anything other than a thumping Yes vote. The worries of the Yes campaign are more about maximising the scale of that victory lest we be seen as The Laughing Stock Of Europe™ once again.

[deiseach]

Also why should the State pay for a course, forced upon couples by the church, in return for allowing the couple the privilege of renting a church?

Viewed through prism of marriage in a church being about the privilege of renting the building, it is inevitable that there will be a separation of church and civil marriage at some point in the future. Someone will take a test case about the prohibition on them getting married in a church, and they will win.

[muppet]

Also why should the State pay for a course, forced upon couples by the church, in return for allowing the couple the privilege of renting a church?

Viewed through prism of marriage in a church being about the privilege of renting the building, it is inevitable that there will be a separation of church and civil marriage at some point in the future. Someone will take a test case about the prohibition on them getting married in a church, and they will win.

In fairness, on that one surely you are entitled to withdraw services if they decide a couple doesn't meet the criteria? For example if a couple of Bible Thumpers from Armagh wanted Sean Brady to celebrate their ceremony in my house, would I have to acquiesce?

[deiseach]

In fairness, on that one surely you are entitled to withdraw services if they decide a couple doesn't meet the criteria? For example if a couple of Bible Thumpers from Armagh wanted Sean Brady to celebrate their ceremony in my house, would I have to acquiesce?

If you make your house available for weddings, and Seán Brady is in the business of being a registrar, then you and he can't turn down a gay couple on the basis that they don't meet the criteria. I'm assuming here the criteria is being heterosexual. That defence doesn't work for B&B owners, and it won't work for churches if they want to fold civil services into church services.