Rule Change Needed to Stop Puke Keep-Ball

Started by cjx, July 15, 2018, 11:55:14 PM

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Billy Magoo

#315
Quote from: Blowitupref on September 09, 2018, 11:07:30 PM
Quote from: tippabu on September 09, 2018, 10:15:27 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 09, 2018, 10:06:03 PM
From everyone's perspective.

There is no reason for slaghtneil to push on, they are winning, why risk losing the ball trying for another score when Magherafelt have everyone back to prevent that. You hold the ball, get them to push up and then with more space your percentages of getting a score is alot better. I actually think the more we see this stuff the better because it will surely end up with teams having to push up and combat it the more successful it is. Just to clarify, it does look horrible and I hate it but equally respect it

Would kind of understand it if Slaughtneil was one score ahead but was there a need to do that when the margin was 5 points with time running out?

Was 04- to 0-3 at this point just before Half Time. Mfelt playing with the wind opted not to pressure the ball. We won 10-5 in the end with Mfelt scoring a solitary point from play.
We played them in the league earlier in the year and they did exactly the same. 4 points down at half time and at the start of the second have we had possession for 10 odd minutes. Our boys were 100% right to hold possession.  We weren't chasing the game

Jinxy

I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

thewobbler

Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.

tippabu

Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.

Each team has 15, the area of the pitch this happens shouldn't mean anyone doing sprints up and back, it should be the forwards responsibility to push further up the field. Btw I think it's a very legitimate tactic as bad as it looks, if a team puts themselves into a position to be able to it then why not, either the other team doesn't push up and you can see out the game easily enough or they do push up and you are creating space and increasing the likelihood of getting a score. I think 99% of people would rather a more traditional 15 on 15 game instead of this packed defences game we have, as admiral a solid defence is in the game. I actually think no teams have started to work on this in terms of getting the ball back and the more it's used and better teams are at it, it will eventually end up where teams do come up with ways to combat it

GetOverTheBar

AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.

Jinxy

Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.

You'll still have the same problem though.
Say Tyrone are playing Dublin, and Dublin have a lead.
Dublin have the ball in their own half and have even less of an incentive to go forward as they know they won't be able to come back.
So, instead of playing keep ball across the HB line or midfield, they now use their entire defensive half to play keep ball.
If Tyrone commit numbers to put pressure on Dublin in their own half, it will leave acres of space in their own defence so that they are now vulnerable to attack.
Which is where we are now.
Teams will be even more strategic about when and how they attack.
It will kill stone dead the attacking wing-back charging up the field as he is banjaxed once he gets isolated.
It'll end up like a game of bulldog with the two teams lined up in their own half.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

thewobbler

See I'm not sure jinxy.

Of course teams who want to play keep ball will be more inclined not to leave their own half, but it would only require 6-8 opponents to push up to make 90m x 70m seem like a very small space. The most nullifying thing about Dublin v Donegal this year wasn't that Dublin played keep ball, it was that when Donegal pushesd then across the half way point, every time Kilkenny got the ball, he ran away from goal, and kicked it deep to restart their manoeuvres from way inside their own half.

Kilkenny did this because it's where there was 60 yards of clear space to kick a ball into. It's ultimate safety first. Take away that option from him, and we have something closer to football again.

trileacman

Quote from: tippabu on September 10, 2018, 09:59:34 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.

Each team has 15, the area of the pitch this happens shouldn't mean anyone doing sprints up and back, it should be the forwards responsibility to push further up the field. Btw I think it's a very legitimate tactic as bad as it looks, if a team puts themselves into a position to be able to it then why not, either the other team doesn't push up and you can see out the game easily enough or they do push up and you are creating space and increasing the likelihood of getting a score. I think 99% of people would rather a more traditional 15 on 15 game instead of this packed defences game we have, as admiral a solid defence is in the game. I actually think no teams have started to work on this in terms of getting the ball back and the more it's used and better teams are at it, it will eventually end up where teams do come up with ways to combat it

This annoys me as it's complete bollocks. Akin to the ould lads on the Sunday game saying teams need to "push up" to get the ball back. The team in possession will always have a man extra as their keeper is always unmarked. So realistically it's 7 players with the ball keeping it off 6 players without, any skilled team will hold onto that indefinitely.

Add to the numerical advantage the fact that the steps rule has been abolished in the minds of referees and it means 6 players have to somehow get close to one of the 7 players with the ball and then execute a perfectly timed tackle against a gym-honed defender who has been given indefinite licence to run with the ball hugged to his chest.

The team in possession will always have a numerical advantage at the back unless teams start getting their keeper to mark the opposition keeper.
Fantasy Rugby World Cup Champion 2011,
Fantasy 6 Nations Champion 2014

Jinxy

I know I sound like a broken record, but the 'keep-ball' approach is largely facilitated by the ability to take short kick-outs to your corner backs.
Introduce a contested restart, i.e. kicks must travel beyond 45m line, and it will limit the ability of a team defending a lead to be 'defensive' and encourage the team chasing a lead to be 'offensive'.
If you were any use you'd be playing.

sid waddell

#324
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Gaelic football already has several types of clear, defined tackle.

Why would it need one which would massively increase the emphasis on physical strength (far more than it has already been increased)
and preclude small players from competing?

Why would anybody think that making what Sean Cavanagh did to Conor McManus in 2013 legal would make Gaelic football a more attractive game to watch?

sid waddell

Quote from: trileacman on September 10, 2018, 10:57:08 AM
Quote from: tippabu on September 10, 2018, 09:59:34 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 10, 2018, 09:44:48 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 09:23:43 AM
I've seen some people proposing a rule whereby an attacking team are not allowed to retreat back into their own half after crossing the halfway line.
Not sure how that would address the issue of teams camping in their own half, if anything it would encourage it and reduce the game to a form of siege warfare.
Before long, every spoofer in the country would be quoting Sun Tzu and Erwin f**king Rommel in the dressing-room, using their wing forwards in a 'pincer movement'.
If they're not already.

The difficulty within the current rules is that it is can be physically and, more pertinently, mentally destructive, to push up on a team who have no interest in scoring.

Take Dublin v Monaghan. Of course Corey, Wylie and Walshe could all have pushed up to the Dublin 45 and tried to force Dublin out. This is okay. It's imperative that the team chasing down a lead works harder. It's even okay when Howard kicks the ball over their heads into the Monaghan CHB channel that they've all departed. That's football.

The problem though for everyone who enjoys sport is that should Walshe, Wylie and Corey cover 80m backwards as quick as possible, and manage to push Kilkenny out of the shooting zone, he will boot it 70m back the other direction to a couple of Dublin players who will restate this tedious shite all over again.

Put yourself in Drew Wylie's shoes. How often can you make that charge before your legs cave in, or your head explodes. At what point do you think, feckit the only way we are getting the ball back off Dublin is to give them an uncontested shot on goal.

Preventing teams from re-entering their own half when in possession wouldn't be a magic potion for Gaelic Football. But it would encourage teams to force each other out, and as such would solve this issue.

Each team has 15, the area of the pitch this happens shouldn't mean anyone doing sprints up and back, it should be the forwards responsibility to push further up the field. Btw I think it's a very legitimate tactic as bad as it looks, if a team puts themselves into a position to be able to it then why not, either the other team doesn't push up and you can see out the game easily enough or they do push up and you are creating space and increasing the likelihood of getting a score. I think 99% of people would rather a more traditional 15 on 15 game instead of this packed defences game we have, as admiral a solid defence is in the game. I actually think no teams have started to work on this in terms of getting the ball back and the more it's used and better teams are at it, it will eventually end up where teams do come up with ways to combat it

This annoys me as it's complete bollocks. Akin to the ould lads on the Sunday game saying teams need to "push up" to get the ball back. The team in possession will always have a man extra as their keeper is always unmarked. So realistically it's 7 players with the ball keeping it off 6 players without, any skilled team will hold onto that indefinitely.

Add to the numerical advantage the fact that the steps rule has been abolished in the minds of referees and it means 6 players have to somehow get close to one of the 7 players with the ball and then execute a perfectly timed tackle against a gym-honed defender who has been given indefinite licence to run with the ball hugged to his chest.

The team in possession will always have a numerical advantage at the back unless teams start getting their keeper to mark the opposition keeper.
Simple. Ban backpasses to the goalkeeper.

GetOverTheBar

Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Gaelic football already has several types of clear, defined tackle.

Why would it need one which would massively increase the emphasis on physical strength (far more than it has already been increased)
and preclude small players from competing?

Why would anybody think that making what Sean Cavanagh did to Conor McManus in 2013 would make Gaelic football a more attractive game to watch?

Really? Because I tackle the same way every single week - one week its a foul, one week its great stuff. Same in any game, I truly do not understand what a tackle is in our sport, seems like you can do whatever you want to a Michael Murphy or an Aiden O'Shea because 'they can take it'.

The AFL sack isn't about an emphasis on physical strength, it's an emphasis on intelligence to get a ball and release, create and exploit space. It's also largely irrelevant if you can't actually catch your man - so the only real physical element is speed.

thewobbler

Quote from: Jinxy on September 10, 2018, 11:02:09 AM
I know I sound like a broken record, but the 'keep-ball' approach is largely facilitated by the ability to take short kick-outs to your corner backs.
Introduce a contested restart, i.e. kicks must travel beyond 45m line, and it will limit the ability of a team defending a lead to be 'defensive' and encourage the team chasing a lead to be 'offensive'.

No, can't agree here. The problem isn't kickouts. The problem is that it is too easy for a team to protect a lead by keeping the ball for several minutes, effectively uncontested. It's now a defined tactic. Restarts provide an opportunity for it to happen, but so does any period of open playz

thewobbler

Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Gaelic football already has several types of clear, defined tackle.

Why would it need one which would massively increase the emphasis on physical strength (far more than it has already been increased)
and preclude small players from competing?

Why would anybody think that making what Sean Cavanagh did to Conor McManus in 2013 would make Gaelic football a more attractive game to watch?

Really? Because I tackle the same way every single week - one week its a foul, one week its great stuff. Same in any game, I truly do not understand what a tackle is in our sport, seems like you can do whatever you want to a Michael Murphy or an Aiden O'Shea because 'they can take it'.

The AFL sack isn't about an emphasis on physical strength, it's an emphasis on intelligence to get a ball and release, create and exploit space. It's also largely irrelevant if you can't actually catch your man - so the only real physical element is speed.

I agree fully. It would seismically change Gaelic Games forever, but would make the games immeasurably easier to understand and officiate.

sid waddell

Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
Quote from: sid waddell on September 10, 2018, 11:04:21 AM
Quote from: GetOverTheBar on September 10, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
AFL style tackle.

Simple. You can empty a man if you get him - you'll soon see the end to this nonsense ongoing.

Furthermore it'll actually bring in a clear, defined tackle into our game....finally.
Gaelic football already has several types of clear, defined tackle.

Why would it need one which would massively increase the emphasis on physical strength (far more than it has already been increased)
and preclude small players from competing?

Why would anybody think that making what Sean Cavanagh did to Conor McManus in 2013 would make Gaelic football a more attractive game to watch?

Really? Because I tackle the same way every single week - one week its a foul, one week its great stuff. Same in any game, I truly do not understand what a tackle is in our sport, seems like you can do whatever you want to a Michael Murphy or an Aiden O'Shea because 'they can take it'.

The AFL sack isn't about an emphasis on physical strength, it's an emphasis on intelligence to get a ball and release, create and exploit space. It's also largely irrelevant if you can't actually catch your man - so the only real physical element is speed.
Association football has a clearly defined tackle, yet there is often confusion and controversy over what is and isn't a foul. Same in rugby.

Hurling has it too.

Gaelic football is far from unique in having controversy over decisions, because decisions have to be made in real time.

That doesn't mean that we don't know what is and isn't a fair tackle under the rules.

An Aussie Rules type tackle would completely change the character of the game. You could say bye bye to points like Diarmuid Connolly's in last year's All-Ireland final, because they wouldn't happen.