Drink Driving

[thewobbler]

Seriously Clov, are you honestly trying to tell me that there's a higher number of speeders with alcohol in their system than without? Or just proportionally higher (in which case we are probably looking at overall group sizes where drink drivers are a percentage of a percentage of sober drivers)?


Anyhow this is annoying me greatly. I've no qualms with people getting emotional about this issue. Drink driving is horrible and it would be in society's great interest to see it eradicated completely. But in my opinion, speeding is a much greater danger, and it's even more society's interests to make this the most taboo of actions

I'm done after this, but to reiterate my point, I'll ask a simple question.

It's late at night and you're walking home. Would you rather be hit from behind by:

A) someone who's had a couple (two) of pints and is aware of a potential for being a little over the limit, so is consciously driving in such a way to detract attention. Their reflexes are probably a bit jaded by the alcohol.

B) someone who's had at least 8 pints. That, and the fact that their reflexes are shot, is all you know.

C) someone who's stone cold sober but is speeding. Apart from the fact that their reflexes are working, all you know is they're speeding.

D) there is no d. Nobody is going to choose to be hit by a car ffs. Just happens the three types of driver above are those who've been discussed the most on this thread.

----

To help you along:

If you chose a) then unless you landed on your head, you're probably in hospital now, and that lad who hit you is tanking his lucky stars. Though you're the lucky one; you an still see your family.

If you chose b) then it's a coin toss (well, perhaps more like a 3-sided coin, and only 1 is on your favour) between the morgue and the hospital. There is after all a chance that our drunk driver does not think he's superman behind the wheel.

If you chose c) well it's bad news I'm afraid. If the driver saw you late at all, he was braking from 35mph plus. You could survive that. But you probably won't. At least he wasn't drunk I suppose.

[Clov]

If you compare the possible outcome of one speeding driver against the action of one drunk driver on the same piece of road then Wobbler is right.

This is both trivially true and completely uninformative.

What we want to know as policy makers (deciding on drink driving laws) and more broadly as a society is whether the drunk driver is more likely to speed (and engage in other risky behaviour likely to cause accidents e.g. overtaking in dangerous spots etc.) than he would if he were not drunk.

The evidence is yes - which is why we have the low tolerance laws we do and which is why people are abhorred by individuals choice to drink and then get behind the wheel.

[Bazil Douglas]

Thats a very uncomfortable read and a horror story for any parent,the sad reality is, these horror stories are more common than you think. Its unbelievable how many young drivers are willing to risk DIC and even more alarming the amount of so called professional people who get behind the wheel after a few pints and think they are ok to drive home. Although over the past few years many drivers who took a taxi to the pub and home have been caught over the limit going to work the next morning by traffic branch especially in the festive season.
But thewobbler has a very valid point speed has a higher inpact in fatalities than alcohol.

[whitey]

Makes for very interesting reading....unfortunately I don't know how to just pull the graph


(Fatal car crashes, broken down by BAC)


http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/Pubs/811385.PDF

[Clov]

Seriously Clov, are you honestly trying to tell me that there's a higher number of speeders with alcohol in their system than without? Or just proportionally higher (in which case we are probably looking at overall group sizes where drink drivers are a percentage of a percentage of sober drivers)?

I'll try and make this simple.

Take a 100 random sober car journeys. Code for dangerous driving behaviour, e.g. speeding, over-taking in dangerous spots, too short braking distances etc.
Now take 100 random drunk car journeys and code for the exact same behaviours.
The prediction given everything we know about alcohol consumption & decision making, the increased propensity for risk taking etc., is that the number of dangerous driving behaviours will be greater in the 'drunk car journey' group.

We can refine this prediction even more. For example, if we had a moderate alcohol group (say after 2 pints) and an extreme group (say a minimum of 8 pints) we know that we would find a small but significant increase in dangerous driving in the moderate group (relative to the sober group) but a huge increase in the extreme group.

These are just the facts of the matter. No playing 'emotion cards' nor massaging 'a misplaced social conscience'.

Now that a sober individual may choose to drive at 70mph (and thus condemn anyone unfortunate enough to be hit by them to certain death) is entirely captured by this analysis (in the base rate of speeding among sober drivers). In much the same way as person who has drunk 8 pints may drive home under the speed limit and between the white lines is also captured in this analysis. Neither of these observations in isolation have any relevance for the question i took us all to be discussing on this thread, namely what level of drinking prior to driving should we as society tolerate.

[annapr]

If you compare the possible outcome of one speeding driver against the action of one drunk driver on the same piece of road then Wobbler is right.

No he isn't. Define speeding?
Suupose the piece of road is 30km/h and you have  guy doing 31km/h he therefore is technically speeding.
Then you have a guy who is blind drunk driving down the same road.. Are you saying you'd rather be crashed into by the guy speeding?
My example is extreme I admit, but there are so many variables at play if you are to be hit by a drunk driver or a guy speeding that to say you'd rather be crashed in to by one over the other is an idiotic thing to say.

[illdecide]

Sure define drink driving then...There was an experiment done recently where they gave about 10 different people a shot of vodka (think thats what it was) and tested them to see if they were over the limit...1 or two failed. Then they all got another shot and were tested again, like before another few failed...long story short there was one girl who had 6 shots of vodka before she was legally over the limit. Moral of the story...2 pints for you after your match on a Sunday (being dehydrated) could potentially make you tipsy and two pints for me after a feed of Dublin Queens could possibly have no effect on me whatsoever...who knows until your breathalysed.

[general_lee]

@ Wobbler

http://www.thedetail.tv/articles/two-years-of-death-and-serious-injury-on-northern-ireland-s-roads

The top three causes over the past 5 years for fatalities in the north are
1. Drink driving
2. Excessive speed
3. Inattention/attention diverted

[Jim_Murphy_74]

Sure define drink driving then...There was an experiment done recently where they gave about 10 different people a shot of vodka (think thats what it was) and tested them to see if they were over the limit...1 or two failed. Then they all got another shot and were tested again, like before another few failed...long story short there was one girl who had 6 shots of vodka before she was legally over the limit. Moral of the story...2 pints for you after your match on a Sunday (being dehydrated) could potentially make you tipsy and two pints for me after a feed of Dublin Queens could possibly have no effect on me whatsoever...who knows until your breathalysed.

For me, drink driving is taking any drink and driving after it.  If I have a pint I do that in the knowledge that I won't be driving home. 

A simple rule.  Then I don't need to worry about over/under limits.

If I drink late at night (a rare occurrence) I don't drive the next day.

I take a drink because it relaxes me and I know a consequence of that is also being relaxed in terms of judgement and reflex.

For me the moral is "Don't drink at all when driving". 

/Jim.

[muppet]

Why are more and more drivers completely unable to turn right properly? Most of the time they start the turn well before the proper turning point and cut across the right angle, marked clearly on the road, for traffic coming the other way, thereby driving briefly on the wrong side of the road. This stupid manoeuvre is usually followed by a glare at some other car, with which they nearly collide, but who as done nothing wrong.

[annapr]

Sure define drink driving then...There was an experiment done recently where they gave about 10 different people a shot of vodka (think thats what it was) and tested them to see if they were over the limit...1 or two failed. Then they all got another shot and were tested again, like before another few failed...long story short there was one girl who had 6 shots of vodka before she was legally over the limit. Moral of the story...2 pints for you after your match on a Sunday (being dehydrated) could potentially make you tipsy and two pints for me after a feed of Dublin Queens could possibly have no effect on me whatsoever...who knows until your breathalysed.

Exactly! sure that's my point!
There are too many variables with both that its is ridiculous to make such a statement that you'd rather be hit by one over the other.

[J70]

Lots of prevarication on here. Do people really need the pint(s) that much that they are prepared to risk life, limb and livelihood of themselves and others by drinking and driving (regardless of quantities!). In my opinion the law should be 0mg that way there is no back of the envelope calculations about what equates to over the limit. Leave the car at home, get a taxi or organise a lift if you want to drink.

Well said.

If you need a pint that badly, pay for a taxi or have a drink at home.

[doodaa]

Cike, regardless of scientific theory on alcohol and its effects, and the effects are undoubted, any attempts to quantify how much quicker it makes people drive is based on supposition.

My argument is based on fact. Every person who drives a car over the speed limit has simultaneously increased their chances of killing another human being. Unfortunately, as every person who has car has also driven it over the speed limit, it's one of those subjects that people don't want to make taboo; it makes them feel all wrong when it's pointed out to them that they're being reckless and would have no recourse if this led to killing someone. Well I'm asking the world to wake the duck up. Speeding is the single biggest problem on our roads. It's the one that always ends lives, and 100 times out of 100, it's preventable.

Tony, you've decided to pull an emotional card when it's not yours to play. Perhaps me and you could spend the rest of our lives swapping stories found on the internet, with you raising me a drink driving story and me re-raising a speeding story? Actually let's not. We both know it's neither an enjoyable argument nor one that can be won.

I disagree.
The biggest problem on our roads are poor driving standards, both North & South of the border.


Its very easier for a Govt to make it look like they are doing something about road safety by throwing out the line that "Speed Kills" and by throwing a few speed cameras around the country.
It isn't as easy (read that as "it costs more") for the Govt to address the primary problem of driving standards. There are people on the road that simply cannot drive to an acceptable standard. The testing/ licensing system is just not thorough enough.

If both Govts were genuinely committed to reducing road deaths they would be pumping money into driver training and education from an early age.

[Franko]

Lots of prevarication on here. Do people really need the pint(s) that much that they are prepared to risk life, limb and livelihood of themselves and others by drinking and driving (regardless of quantities!). In my opinion the law should be 0mg that way there is no back of the envelope calculations about what equates to over the limit. Leave the car at home, get a taxi or organise a lift if you want to drink.

Well said.

If you need a pint that badly, pay for a taxi or have a drink at home.

Did someone not point out earlier that a 0mg limit is not workable?  Lets not get carried away here.

[GJL]

I would guess that using the mobile to either text or take/make a call is something that causes a lot of accidents. I know I have been guilty of using the phone whilst driving and have the points on my license to prove it!