Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football

Started by APM, October 02, 2018, 04:43:21 PM

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imtommygunn

I was watching tg4 highlights last night and thinking that the clare team would be completely buggered by this rule change. They did a lot of short handpassing, in the highlights anyway, which was all good stuff and very positive at times. That wouldn't have been allowed with the new rules. The three hand pass thing is a nonsense and should be binned.

manfromdelmonte

The best soccer teams press the ball high up the pitch.
Poor teams retreat to defend the space

There's a lesson in that for GAA teams. You really cannot carry a few forwards not willing to work hard

shark

Quote from: imtommygunn on November 27, 2018, 04:13:45 PM
I was watching tg4 highlights last night and thinking that the clare team would be completely buggered by this rule change. They did a lot of short handpassing, in the highlights anyway, which was all good stuff and very positive at times. That wouldn't have been allowed with the new rules. The three hand pass thing is a nonsense and should be binned.

Agree. skip to 16:50 on the clip below. Is this goal an affront to how football should be played? 6 hand passes in a row.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PWAln129mOw

cjx

Quote from: Rossfan on November 27, 2018, 11:30:50 AM
Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

five points

Quote from: cjx on November 27, 2018, 09:57:26 PM
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Maybe we need a smaller ball?  :-\

trailer

Quote from: cjx on November 27, 2018, 09:57:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 27, 2018, 11:30:50 AM
Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Are you seriously suggesting this? This is a valid solution? Seriously?

BennyCake

Quote from: five points on November 28, 2018, 10:53:21 AM
Quote from: cjx on November 27, 2018, 09:57:26 PM
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Maybe we need a smaller ball?  :-\

Maybe we need two balls?

Now there's a game worth watching!

sligoman2

Quote from: cjx on November 27, 2018, 09:57:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 27, 2018, 11:30:50 AM
Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Can't see the shot clock for second half only, think of the possibilities if there is a gale force wind blowing?  For me the change that definitely should have occurred is mandating a minimum of 4 outfield players in both halves of the field.  The biggest issue is mass defenses which leads to back passing, hand passing and that issue has not been addresses imo.
I used to be indecisive but now I'm not too sure.

westbound

Quote from: sligoman2 on November 28, 2018, 01:15:54 PM
Quote from: cjx on November 27, 2018, 09:57:26 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on November 27, 2018, 11:30:50 AM
Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
This is the key point! The ball must be made more available/easily got by the team not in possession you make whatever changes are neededserve that objective. Hurling is great cos the ball is virtually always out there and easily got at. So an AussieRules smother tackle would help as would more kicking, as would banning the handpass ( its too easy to retain possession if you transfer the ball by handpass) and  enforcing the steps/ time in possession rule strictly. And a shot clock ( 2nd half only) would be easy to enforce if you designed a special stopwatch for GAA refs with a timed alarmed  stop clock button Use technology

Can't see the shot clock for second half only, think of the possibilities if there is a gale force wind blowing?  For me the change that definitely should have occurred is mandating a minimum of 4 outfield players in both halves of the field.  The biggest issue is mass defenses which leads to back passing, hand passing and that issue has not been addresses imo.
This!

Mass defences is the problem.  Most of the other problems (ball retention, endless handpassing, back passing, lack of long direct kick passes) are symptoms of the packed defences. 
Any solutions should be aimed at reducing the numbers teams have in defence. Ideally, it wouldn't be a rule to force that, but if that's what it takes then so be it.

Hound

Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 27, 2018, 05:11:15 PM
The best soccer teams press the ball high up the pitch.
Poor teams retreat to defend the space

There's a lesson in that for GAA teams. You really cannot carry a few forwards not willing to work hard
Parkinson made an interesting comment on the 3 hand pass rule that throws another angle on it.

As well as limiting the ability of attacking half backs to maraude forward, I was thinking the rule would encourage defending teams to pull everyone back in defence, so the attacking team would be left with no option but to kick balls in to forwards who are double marked when their 3 handpasses are up (or else just keep kicking it backwards).

However, Parkinson made the point that if a team with 13-15 men back win possession, and the other team maintains a high press, the defensive team would have no way of getting the ball out within 3 handpasses. They'd end up kicking it straight back and would be lucky to get the ball over half way. So it would be a ridiculous tactic and impossible to win with. Therefore, you would have to leave a decent number of men up to make sure you are able to get forward when you do win a turnover.

Now of course a team could still do 13-15 men back if they wanted to make the game a farce, but they'd look very stupid and would still end up getting a tanking, so in reality it would be hard to see any decent coach advocating it.

I think that's an interesting point by Parkinson. So I'm thinking it's maybe worth waiting to see how it plays out before dismissing it.   


tippabu

Quote from: FermGael on November 28, 2018, 06:35:43 PM
GPA has flexed its muscle
http://www.irishnews.com/sport/gaafootball/2018/11/28/news/breaking-gaa-agrees-to-review-rule-changes-after-pre-season-competitions-following-meeting-with-gpa-1496428

its a complete joke....these are fairly major changes and will take alot of work from coaches, so now do they coach these rules, they will have to really but it might end up a big waste of time and effort if there are changes again. if they are gotten rid of youve just over a week to revert to the old ones

Blowitupref

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/columnists/john-fogarty/new-hand-pass-rule-is-doomed-to-failure-888035.html?&session=8MCU/hPirektZCmukhstqo1O6RoYSv2m80JhwsoPsAE=


JOHN FOGARTY: New hand-pass rule is doomed to failure


Whataboutery is usually an exercise best avoided but, bear with us: in this instance, it is worth indulging. We're trying to imagine the game of Gaelic football without more than three consecutive hand-passes, which will be the situation in a couple of weeks.
We could discuss how counterproductive the limit will be. We could mention how teams, as reports from recent trial matches among colleges sides have claimed, kick the ball back as soon as they hit three to restart the process for fear they might lose possession with a kick forward.


We could suggest the best inter-county teams are so savvy that they — like hurlers bounce the ball to themselves to break a possession and therefore catch the ball more than twice — will purposely break the chain of hand-passes with something like a deliberate hand-pass to ground in front of their intended target, a spilled solo or a ground kick, that the referee has to recount.
We could also argue it's better to incentivise using the foot than attempting to punish a lesser skill. But for now we will consider how poorer an already dismal 2018 Championship would have been without teams being able to put together more than three straight hand-passes.
James McCarthy's fine goal against Tyrone in Omagh? It would have been ruled out as soon as he received the ball through a fourth consecutive hand-pass from Con O'Callaghan.

Donegal's first goal in the Ulster final? Void. While you're at it, cancel out their fine second goal too as Paul Brennan fed the goalscorer Ryan McHugh. And Hugh McFadden's against Derry.
And Leon McLoone's against Down. Yes, Donegal appear to be the team that have most to lose from this purge on the hand-pass, although Harry Loughran's goal against them in Ballybofey would have been ruled out for the same reason.
But there's more. Vinny Corey's against Tyrone in Omagh, Ciarán Murtagh's against Galway, Gearóid McKiernan's against Down, Paul Geaney's second against Cork, Enda Smith's first goal against Armagh (six hand-passes preceded that swift move from defence) and Neil Flynn's against Kerry.
While we're at it, and bearing in mind the ban on the backward sideline kick, Damien Comer's goal against Dublin in the All-Ireland semi-final would not have stood as Ian Burke initiated the move for the goal by reversing a sideline ball to Ciarán Duggan.
Traceback from this year's Championship and the impact of the hand-pass limit can truly be gauged. Voted the greatest GAA moment in an RTÉ poll in 2005, Seán Óg de Paor's point in the 1998 All-Ireland final would never have happened once Michael Donnellan laid off the ball to Derek Savage.
And don't even begin to discuss Michael Farragher's magical goal for Corofin in this year's All-Ireland club final, all 16 of the passes in the breathtaking build-up coming from the hand.
Cillian O'Connor's additional time equaliser in the drawn 2016 All-Ireland final? Afraid not since four hand-passes were strung together before he let fly. Ten years earlier, Ciarán McDonald's point to beat Dublin in that year's semi-final would also have been culled.
Kevin Foley's famous goal in 1991? Five hand-passes on the trot. Peter Canavan's late point against Kerry in 2005 would have been dismissed for one hand-pass too many.

Few can disagree that the playing rules committee's heart is in the right place. Only formed this year, they have proved extremely productive. They rightly highlight that the hand-pass has become too prevalent but there is little consideration given to the fact a transfer from hand to hand, be it the second or 14th in a row, can be a positive possession.
It hasn't helped their credibility that their original kick-out proposal has twice been amended, firstly by themselves on the back of feedback from those at the coalface and then by Central Council on Saturday.
To their credit, the committee said they wanted their proposals to be multilateral but a second change at the weekend so kick-outs now need not pass the 45-metre line, damages their hopes to further the promotion of high fielding.
As an aside, all kick-outs still must be a minimum of 13m in length so might that prompt a redrawing of the field such as creating a 13m radius from the middle of the 20m line? It would make referees' lives easier anyway.
Starting next month and continuing into January, there will be outrage about rationing a play that footballers have been so accustomed to exercising and coaches preaching. It won't help that this experiment comes at a time of the year when the conditions accentuate the virtue of keeping the ball in hand.
The GAA might reason that as a mitigating reason for the forthcoming uproar but it's not going to be enough for them to ride it.
As Stephen O'Meara, the performance analyst for Galway's senior footballers who also assists Corofin's analysis team, points out, the hand-pass is the effect, not the cause of why Gaelic football has become more difficult to enjoy. Much like GAA president John Horan says only attitudes, not rules, can enshrine the GAA's amateur ethos. Gaelic football's future lies solely in the hands of those that coach and play it.
Is the ref going to finally blow his whistle?... No, he's going to blow his nose

mrdeeds

Seen that in some of the games that it was trialled in they were incredibly low scoring. In most after two hand passes they kicked it  backwards in order to keep possession and not risk having no option on third handpass.

BennyCake

Regarding the hand passing rule. The new rule is obviously to encourage more kick passing. But teams are all about possession now. Teams won't kick a 50/50 ball. They will just recycle until space opens up.

Aussie Rules has a lot more kicking. More 50/50 balls. That's probably because there's more space and you'd be a long time fisting the ball the length of that pitch.

If the GAA want to encourage kicking, they should either make the pitch bigger (not feasible) or reduce the number of players (doable).