Positive proposals at last to address the spectacle of Gaelic Football

Started by APM, October 02, 2018, 04:43:21 PM

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Hound

Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2018, 09:22:01 AM

Attendances have been falling, Hound
Maybe the finals with Mayo were interesting but below that a lot of people are no longer interested. Last year all the qfs were walkovers.
The gap between the 4 top teams and the rest gets wider.
the gap between the Dubs and the 3 half decent but compromised "top" teams gets wider
Lots of players can't be bothered committing to training for nothing.

None of these issues pertain to hurling.

Attendances aren't actually falling. Some are up, some are down. We're certainly below peak, but well up on the "glory years" of 70s and 80s when everything was great.

Hurling had most of those issues when Kilkenny were dominating.
The standard in hurling has gone back in recent years. This year was very mediocre, but benefitted from the fact there a lot of teams at the same level, so matches were exciting. If Cody's best team was around, nobody would have got within 10 points of them.

The 2018 All Ireland hurling final was among the worst in the last 20 yerars. Horrible standard. In the second half both teams completely bottled it, trying their best to give it away to each other and hitting over 40 wides in the process.   

There are certainly more hurling teams than football teams who have problems in getting people to commit to training etc. Why are Offaly and Antrim hurling so far behind where they were when they peaked? Why does nobody care? Laois hurling is further away from winning Leinster hurling than Leinster football, and they're a long way from the latter.  Galway don't even have a provincial championship they can play in at home in hurling. Yeah, hurling is in an awesome place. If only football was so competitive.

Esmarelda

Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2018, 09:22:01 AM
Quote from: Hound on November 27, 2018, 09:07:47 AM
Quote from: macdanger2 on November 26, 2018, 11:49:32 PM
The more you consider the rule changes, the more you realise that they aren't going to work very well.

As someone said earlier, 13 a side is probably worth trying and very easy to implement at all levels.

A shot clock would also be worth trying imo, x amount of time from kickout to having an attempt on goal; although there are some obvious flaws with it, would it be any worse than what we currently?
Do you honestly think what we have currently is so dreadful.

Over the last 5 years, how many great spectacles have Mayo been involved?
How many awful specatacles have they been involved in?

I would have thought the former outweighs the latter by a long long way.

No need for shot clocks, no need for 13 a side.

Though I am glad the offensive mark wasn't in over recent years. Given the number of times AOS caught a clean catch in the full forward line against us, but was swamped by defenders and almost inevitable conceded a free. The offensive mark will encourage kicking, none of the other nonsense needed. Almost all the other rules, esp limiting handpassing and no backwards sidelines encourage teams to pile men back. Exactly the opposite of what's needed.

As I said on another thread, it went almost unnoticed that Kilmacud and Portlaoise produced a great game in horrible November. If that had been a 0-6 to 0-4 borefest, it would have gotten far more media coverage. Imagine if soccer lads criticised the game everytime there was a boring 0-0 or 1-0, when a teams goes ahead and shuts up shop!
Attendances have been falling, Hound
Maybe the finals with Mayo were interesting but below that a lot of people are no longer interested. Last year all the qfs were walkovers.
The gap between the 4 top teams and the rest gets wider.
the gap between the Dubs and the 3 half decent but compromised "top" teams gets wider
Lots of players can't be bothered committing to training for nothing.

None of these issues pertain to hurling.
What does this have to do with the new rules?

seafoid

Quote from: Hound on November 27, 2018, 09:35:31 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 27, 2018, 09:22:01 AM

Attendances have been falling, Hound
Maybe the finals with Mayo were interesting but below that a lot of people are no longer interested. Last year all the qfs were walkovers.
The gap between the 4 top teams and the rest gets wider.
the gap between the Dubs and the 3 half decent but compromised "top" teams gets wider
Lots of players can't be bothered committing to training for nothing.

None of these issues pertain to hurling.

Attendances aren't actually falling. Some are up, some are down. We're certainly below peak, but well up on the "glory years" of 70s and 80s when everything was great.

Hurling had most of those issues when Kilkenny were dominating.
The standard in hurling has gone back in recent years. This year was very mediocre, but benefitted from the fact there a lot of teams at the same level, so matches were exciting. If Cody's best team was around, nobody would have got within 10 points of them.

The 2018 All Ireland hurling final was among the worst in the last 20 yerars. Horrible standard. In the second half both teams completely bottled it, trying their best to give it away to each other and hitting over 40 wides in the process.   

There are certainly more hurling teams than football teams who have problems in getting people to commit to training etc. Why are Offaly and Antrim hurling so far behind where they were when they peaked? Why does nobody care? Laois hurling is further away from winning Leinster hurling than Leinster football, and they're a long way from the latter.  Galway don't even have a provincial championship they can play in at home in hurling. Yeah, hurling is in an awesome place. If only football was so competitive.

Football is a mess, Hound.

Oddschecker odds for 2019
Football

Top 4  1/2 to 14/1
Number of counties 10/1 to 1/10-  2

Hurling

Top 4
7/2 to 5/1
Number of counties  10/1 to 1/10 - 6

Even if the success was evenly spread around the game is a poor spectacle.
The game has mutated into a technical borefest suited to the teams with the most money
Attendances have been falling since 2001
How many exciting matches in July and August did football have this year ?


"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

BennyCake

Seafood, yes a technical borefest. But this possession-based, sidewards/backwards bollix of a keep-ball game isn't going away, no matter what rules are brought in. Sadly, what we see now is here to stay.

God help us all.

thewobbler

Quote from: BennyCake on November 27, 2018, 10:40:38 AM
Seafood, yes a technical borefest. But this possession-based, sidewards/backwards bollix of a keep-ball game isn't going away, no matter what rules are brought in. Sadly, what we see now is here to stay.

God help us all.

Have a look at the history section of https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_clock


Coaches and players have been ruining sport for as long as we've had sport. It can be fixed.

Not necessarily with a shot clock by the way. Just some form of strong disincentive for not attacking.

Rossfan

Teach forwards how to tackle and keep them up the field.
Few things more uncomfortable than a corner back with the ball under pressure  :D
The game has been turned into soccer with hands.
At least in soccer the ball is relatively loose all the time but we have allowed the man with ball in hand to do anything he likes with it.
If we leave that as it is then we need to bring in a tackle on the man.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

TheGreatest

Sorry it this was posted before, but GPA survey with players, 96% appose the new hand pass rule.

Its going to ruin the game.

seafoid

Quote from: TheGreatest on November 27, 2018, 11:44:14 AM
Sorry it this was posted before, but GPA survey with players, 96% appose the new hand pass rule.

Its going to ruin the game.
Hospital pass or hail mary pass ?
"f**k it, just score"- Donaghy   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbxG2WwVRjU

Rossfan

Fkn handpass has ruined the game.
John Horan reported as saying over the weekend we now have Gaelic Handball instead of Gaelic Football.
Davy's given us a dream to cling to
We're going to bring home the SAM

general_lee

I think what the purists want is catch and kick. No structure or tactics other than catch the ball and kick the f**king thing as far and as hard and as high as you can for some mutant in full forward to catch and presumably score. Because apparently the best aspect of Gaelic football is the art of high fielding. How is the game going to be attractive to anyone if you keep changing the f**king rules?

TheGreatest

Not according to the players who actually play the game.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/sport/gpa-want-talks-gaa-over-15470754

In terms of most disruptive rule changes, the GPA recently carried out a survey from which it emerged that 96% of those polled were against the restriction on the handpass, with 54% in favour of the mark.

And it is also my belief, for all the Dublin haters out there etc, this rule will only strengthen Dublin as they are probably the best kick passing team in the country. They will figure it out.




thewobbler

Quote from: TheGreatest on November 27, 2018, 12:08:12 PM
Not according to the players who actually play the game.

https://www.dublinlive.ie/sport/gpa-want-talks-gaa-over-15470754

In terms of most disruptive rule changes, the GPA recently carried out a survey from which it emerged that 96% of those polled were against the restriction on the handpass, with 54% in favour of the mark.

And it also my believe, for all the Dublin haters out there etc, this rule will only strengthen Dublin as they are probably the best kick passing team in the country. They will figure it out.

They're the most ruthless counter-attacking side in the country, and by a mile. So they should in theory have the least adjustment to make.

But they've been as guilty as any side in recent years of endless recycling of the ball when an obvious opportunity is not available. So the new rules will force them to take more risks. That won't be as clearcut in their favour as you think, as the players have been dogmatically programmed to retreat unless there is an option.

Keyser soze

People pointing out the differences in hurling and football as a spectacle could maybe take into account the fact that football has been emasculated to the point where it is acceptable for players in contact to be 'entitled to go down', something you would rarely, if ever, see in hurling.

The massive divergence that has developed in the physicality of the 2 games due to the way in which they are refereed is the major influence in the unattractiveness of football as opposed to hurling IMO.

Hound

Quote from: thewobbler on November 27, 2018, 12:21:48 PM

But they've been as guilty as any side in recent years of endless recycling of the ball when an obvious opportunity is not available. So the new rules will force them to take more risks. That won't be as clearcut in their favour as you think, as the players have been dogmatically programmed to retreat unless there is an option.

Last year v Donegal (when winning well but Donegal still having everyone back) was the only part of a game where Dublin could rightfully be accused of "endlessly recycling". 

The new rules won't change that one iota. There was lots of sideways and backways kickpassing in that 10 minutes of boredom and there is nothing in the new rules that would force Donegal to come out and try and win the ball. When people cop on that the new handpass rule is totally ineffective in stopping this, then some genius will come up with the idea of no kick backpass allowed, thus encouraging more counties to adopt the mass defence.

The new handpass rule will curtail the effectiveness of the Jack McCaffreys, Lee Keegans, Tiernan McCanns, Ryan McHughs making storming runs up the field, having 1-2s with others as they go.

LeoMc

Quote from: Hound on November 27, 2018, 03:55:38 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on November 27, 2018, 12:21:48 PM

But they've been as guilty as any side in recent years of endless recycling of the ball when an obvious opportunity is not available. So the new rules will force them to take more risks. That won't be as clearcut in their favour as you think, as the players have been dogmatically programmed to retreat unless there is an option.

Last year v Donegal (when winning well but Donegal still having everyone back) was the only part of a game where Dublin could rightfully be accused of "endlessly recycling". 

The new rules won't change that one iota. There was lots of sideways and backways kickpassing in that 10 minutes of boredom and there is nothing in the new rules that would force Donegal to come out and try and win the ball. When people cop on that the new handpass rule is totally ineffective in stopping this, then some genius will come up with the idea of no kick backpass allowed, thus encouraging more counties to adopt the mass defence.

The new handpass rule will curtail the effectiveness of the Jack McCaffreys, Lee Keegans, Tiernan McCanns, Ryan McHughs making storming runs up the field, having 1-2s with others as they go.

This.