Black Ball

[HiMucker]

Black card offence?  14 years free no matter where th fouls occurs, player sinbinned for 10 minutes. If those two additions were made to the rule the level of institutional fouls would decrease. 8 team fouls per half as well and it's a 14 metre free. All the ref needs is a page in his book where he ticks the fouls off!!  Pretty basic stuff

Id agree with most of this.  I think there is 2 problems.  1) The cynical fouls that the black card was brought in to stop, but hasn't quite stopped them and 2) The amount of fouls you can get away with.  We sometimes had guys after matches who had committed 10 fouls plus, some of them not even booked!  This was obviously deliberate.  The amount of fouls a player can get away with in a game and still be on the pitch is ridiculous.  All the wee half pulls and over-eager tackling that gets blown as foul but nothing.  If your on a yellow you should only be able to get away with one of these before you see another one.

[north aontroim gael]

Black card offence?  14 years free no matter where th fouls occurs, player sinbinned for 10 minutes. If those two additions were made to the rule the level of institutional fouls would decrease. 8 team fouls per half as well and it's a 14 metre free. All the ref needs is a page in his book where he ticks the fouls off!!  Pretty basic stuff

Id agree with most of this.  I think there is 2 problems.  1) The cynical fouls that the black card was brought in to stop, but hasn't quite stopped them and 2) The amount of fouls you can get away with.  We sometimes had guys after matches who had committed 10 fouls plus, some of them not even booked!  This was obviously deliberate.  The amount of fouls a player can get away with in a game and still be on the pitch is ridiculous.  All the wee half pulls and over-eager tackling that gets blown as foul but nothing.  If your on a yellow you should only be able to get away with one of these before you see another one.

What about a basketball type system were a player is only allowed a certain amount of fouls per game - say 4. As soon as he reaches this quota he is taken off with no replacement. A more serious foul such as a yellow card offence = 2 fouls and a straight red obviously would equal 4 and removal from the game.

Or something that potentially punishes the offending team on the scoreboard. For every 3 fouls committed the team on the receiving end gets a free / 45 from the centre of the posts. They still have to convert but may be more of a deterrent?

Or a mix of both of the above.

[Esmarelda]

How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space. 

What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?

Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.

Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?

BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.

I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.

[magpie seanie]

How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space. 

What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?

Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.

Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?

BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.

I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.

You can't get someone booked or ticked by claiming a sideline ball.

[macdanger2]

Some of the suggested punishments here are going ott imo. It's the "closing out" of games with fouling that something like this should be used for.

I'd agree with what someone mentioned earlier about some of the rules being weighted in favour of the forward e.g. number of steps allowed, which encourages teams to play more defensively. The steps rule in particular should be enforced to allow backs a chance to make a fair challenge for the ball

[blewuporstuffed]

I think for a lot of these end of game fouls like happened in the AI final,we are trying to solve the wrong problem.
The object of dragging these men down and throwing the tee away etc is time wasting. If that is the case, the referee should be adding the time additional time on, which at the minute doesn't really happen.

if players thought that the time would be added on again anyway, there wouldn't really be any point in the time wasting.

[Esmarelda]

How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space. 

What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?

Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.

Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?

BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.

I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.

You can't get someone booked or ticked by claiming a sideline ball.

What's the relevance of that?

You can gain an unfair advantage if you con the referee, similar to when you dive or pull a jersey off the ball.

[Captain Scarlet]

Black card equaling a sin bin for 10 mins and a 14 yard tap over is a good shout.
Then you need to go further in the example of Conor McManus being clean through on goals, so if the last man back hauls him down, even outside the box then it a sin bin and a penalty.
All of this win at all costs pulling and dragging is to stop scores in tight games. So, the main way to stop it is to give that tap over free. It would defaet the purpose of the real late in the day cynicism.

[Franko]

A lot of issues would be sorted if referees enforced the steps rule.  A defender has zero chance of winning a ball back if the attacker doesn't have to play it for 8-10 steps.  We see it so often and it is the entire basis of the defensive, possession-based football we see at the minute.

I've lost count of the number of times I've heard coaches tell me/teams to take a minimum of 6 steps before playing the ball as they know you'll get away with it.

[criostlinn]

How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space. 

What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?

Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.

Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?

BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.

I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.

You can't get someone booked or ticked by claiming a sideline ball.

What's the relevance of that?

You can gain an unfair advantage if you con the referee, similar to when you dive or pull a jersey off the ball.

How do you get an unfair advantage from claiming a sideline ball. If the ball went off you well surely the ref and linesman will see this and give the ball to the other team. How can we tell when a player claims a sideline ball that he didn't legitimately think it went of an opposition player.

Similar with diving. Its very hard to enforce unless its a pretty obvious dive.

[bennydorano]

Some uncomfortable  viewing, Luke Fitzgerald v Kimmage in podcast - initiated because they got into a Twitter spat over the Dubs cheating. First time I've ever felt that Kimmage has been bested and left floundering tbh.


http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/the-left-wing/the-left-wing-listen-in-full-as-luke-fitzgerald-and-paul-kimmage-face-off-on-dublin-cheating-and-doping-in-sport-36177454.html

[Esmarelda]

How do you define what is cheating and spot it though?
In more extreme cases such as hauling down a player who is bearing down on goal usually causes uproar, but what about the corner forward who pushes his marker to get the few yards of space. 

What if he scores a goal as a result? Is this cheating?

Yes. Call it intentionally breaking the rules to gain an advantage if cheating sounds too harsh.

Is diving any worse than claiming a sideline ball when you know it came off you? One is deemed cheating, the other part and parcel of the game?

BC1 suggestion for 14 yard frees would be interesting but given how few and far between black cards are i would take it further. Penalty for Black Card offenses and when the foul limit kicks in 14 yard free.

I don't think there's a rule against claiming a sideline ball when you know rightly that it's not your ball but personally I'd equate it to the same as diving.

You can't get someone booked or ticked by claiming a sideline ball.

What's the relevance of that?

You can gain an unfair advantage if you con the referee, similar to when you dive or pull a jersey off the ball.

How do you get an unfair advantage from claiming a sideline ball. If the ball went off you well surely the ref and linesman will see this and give the ball to the other team. How can we tell when a player claims a sideline ball that he didn't legitimately think it went of an opposition player.

Similar with diving. Its very hard to enforce unless its a pretty obvious dive.

Surely the ref and linesman will see it? You think the officials spot every decision?

If you know the ball went out of your leg and you claim the kick anyway then you're trying to gain an unfair advantage. I'm looking at this from the point of view of the player that is trying to gain the advantage rather then the punishment. I accept that "policing" these occurrences is very difficult.

My point is, in sport, and particularly in a sport which doesn't financially reward the winner, would it not be better to win fairly and know it than know that you won by cheating? Obviously I'm in the minority which I think is sad.

[Ethan Tremblay]

A good we listen.  Think Kimmage using the word cheating and Fitzgearld using the word cheating would have broadly different contexts.  Kimmage uncovered the most well run sports scandal in history and his name and the word cheating always have the seedy undertone to it, I think that's why Fitzgearld called him out on it. 
For him to associate that word with Dublin would imply something more sinister than what it was. 

[bennydorano]

Kimmage is a Dub supporter too not a fly by night type so I'm sure he didn't say it lightly, dunno how much of a GAA man Fitzgerald is & I got the impression that he thought Kimmage was approaching the point as a 'cyclist who doped', not as a Gaa man.

[magpie seanie]

Fair play Luke Fitzgerald. He made some really important points that needed to be made to Kimmage.