Ulster Club IFC/JFC 2023

[Look-Up!]

you could stop the whole argument about intermediate and junior championships by scrapping them and  just giving the intermediate and junior  champions a place in the county's  senior championships so there is a pathway for them to be provincial or all ireland champions.

Intermediate champions already get a place (if they want it) in the counties senior championship I'd imagine in most counties

The competition serves up a great carrot, to win a final at Croke park with your teammates

People growing up as kids playing soccer in the streets, wanted to score the winner in the FA Cup final at Wembley. It the same thing now in GAA at all levels, scoring the winner at Croke park with your club, parish town or City

No it's not, junior and intermediate aren't fit for purpose

Tell that to Cullyhanna and Arva...

You're not within a country mile of the point

Its fit for purpose with one simple rule, no div 1 teams in intermediate or Junior for that matter and only div 3 or 4 teams can play Junior ..

Whatever way a county runs off its championship is up to them, but no team can enter the all Ireland series based on those simple enough rules, they must nominate a team, even Jimmy McGuinness could understand that set up!

That will encourage teams to actually play at their level ad not 'below'

Cork and Dublin could really mix it up with their A and B championships though, but to be fair to them as a county they haven't, Kerry are just ruining it

If people still have their knickers in a twist over the whole Arva thing then go get the rules changed for the sake of changing them, whatever. They have little to be at.

But that statement is a load of nonsense. Arva's priority would always have been championship. Winning the Junior championship was the only "encouragement" they'd ever have had. Took them a few years because that was their level, they couldn't rise "above" it. Your statement is implying there was something untoward going on, that they somehow designed this situation for unfair advantage. Other posters have implied this on here too. Need a serious bit of cop on.

There's no cop on required. Playing div 1 and playing junior championship is not the norm up and down the country.

All I'm saying is any county can run their own championship whatever way they feel works for them. But, a div 1 league team shouldn't be playing in the provincial championship and beyond. A nominated div 3-4 team that's reached further than a div 2 team and Div 1 team.. 

There's no beef with Cavan or Avra, they've done nowt wrong

I wouldn't be in favour of this but if it gets voted in that's the rules we'll go by.

We operate a 2 up 2 down in league, 1 up 1 down in championship so teams operating in different tiers for both competitions is completely normal for us. League playoffs instead of proper league standings might magnify the quirks at bit e.g as someone said Knockbride will play div1 next year but are still Junior. They finished 3rd in div2 but won a playoff.

I don't see the problem really. Complaining about other counties or team ranked 20 from county A playing team ranked 30 from count B is irrelevant. Counties are not standard units and clubs are not standard units. Absolutely no business comparing div1 in Cavan and say Dublin. AI Senior club championship is completely stacked with only a handful of elites capable of winning. Do we start handicapping some teams to make it "fairer" or just get on with it.
JFC and IFC have a much leveler playing field. So Kerry are strong in it. That's hardly surprising or worrying for a county with a huge GAA tradition and a huge rural population.

[Dreadnought]

Maybe, just maybe, some here might realise that League is just different in most counties and not taken as seriously. The fact that teams play the whole thing (relegation play off excepted) with no county players, and that it's 2 up 2 down makes it different. A team can indeed get promoted while losing a final. So completely different than Championship when you go up only by winning the thing through. Isn't it more likely that teams not good enough go up a level? By that very metric, League placing are not as important than Championship ones. To get promoted in Championship, you've shown you're good enough in Championship. Same with relegation, be poor enough you go down. We cannot say the same about League.

This absolute knicker twisting about League is only new since inter county linked, and it's still mainly by Championship performance first - then League. Remember that the majority of the 16 Sam positions are still filled by Championship results with provincial final and Tailteann winners. That system rewards Championship, and only fills in the remaining minority with League to fill it up. Jeez, have you folk actually forgot what the GAA is about? It's Championship. I'll name you Cavan, Ulster, and All Ireland Champions off the top of my head going back at least 50 years. Can't tell you who won the various Leagues a few years back... That's tells you all

You simply have to accept that the anomaly in a county that doesn't link is the League. Not the other way round. Can you for a second look at it from the other direction and see that maybe it is Championship that begets Championship. Not this new League obsession that you don't understand and you try to twist to suit a narrative. If your county links, sure whatever. Go for it. But don't apply those standards to one who doesn't as teams would them otherwise try harder in League. Because it's not, they don't and you can't apply this retroactively. It's that simple

[Ethan Tremblay]

I mentioned it before, but the biggest issue seems to be they had played, and maintained their division 1 league status, and played in a junior championship. 

Had it been intermediate championship they had won, I would say people, like myself, could reconcile more with that. 

This is coming from my own point of view where, in Armagh, the leagues and championships are linked, the idea of a senior league team entering a junior championship would seem preposterous, and the outcome would be inevitable. 

Just one caveat there though. By any league metric Arva are a div 2 side. It was a championship style one game knockout kept them there when they were completely adrift of everyone. So you absolutely cannot call them a senior side. That is completely disingenuous.

Elaborate?

Finished rock bottom of league. In any league scenario this should mean relegation.

But they were a (albeit struggling) division 1 team in 2023 and played junior championship.

Aye generally it does, in this case it didn't. 

You can't argue that by all conceivable metrics they are a division 2 team based on their final league position, when the same county board that allowed them to play junior championship also allowed them the chance to stay in division 1 with a relegation playoff. 

[Look-Up!]

I mentioned it before, but the biggest issue seems to be they had played, and maintained their division 1 league status, and played in a junior championship. 

Had it been intermediate championship they had won, I would say people, like myself, could reconcile more with that. 

This is coming from my own point of view where, in Armagh, the leagues and championships are linked, the idea of a senior league team entering a junior championship would seem preposterous, and the outcome would be inevitable. 

Just one caveat there though. By any league metric Arva are a div 2 side. It was a championship style one game knockout kept them there when they were completely adrift of everyone. So you absolutely cannot call them a senior side. That is completely disingenuous.

Elaborate?

Finished rock bottom of league. In any league scenario this should mean relegation.

But they were a (albeit struggling) division 1 team in 2023 and played junior championship.

Because they struggled to win Junior for long enough.

[Look-Up!]

I mentioned it before, but the biggest issue seems to be they had played, and maintained their division 1 league status, and played in a junior championship. 

Had it been intermediate championship they had won, I would say people, like myself, could reconcile more with that. 

This is coming from my own point of view where, in Armagh, the leagues and championships are linked, the idea of a senior league team entering a junior championship would seem preposterous, and the outcome would be inevitable. 

Just one caveat there though. By any league metric Arva are a div 2 side. It was a championship style one game knockout kept them there when they were completely adrift of everyone. So you absolutely cannot call them a senior side. That is completely disingenuous.

Elaborate?

Finished rock bottom of league. In any league scenario this should mean relegation.

But they were a (albeit struggling) division 1 team in 2023 and played junior championship.

Aye generally it does, in this case it didn't. 

You can't argue that by all conceivable metrics they are a division 2 team based on their final league position, when the same county board that allowed them to play junior championship also allowed them the chance to stay in division 1 with a relegation playoff. 

If I'm arguing anything at all it's that you can't argue by all conceivable metrics that they are a div1/senior side based on a knockout playoff ad hoc format to league, when the same knockout championship proper format has kept them Junior. 

[Milltown Row2]

Maybe, just maybe, some here might realise that League is just different in most counties and not taken as seriously. The fact that teams play the whole thing (relegation play off excepted) with no county players, and that it's 2 up 2 down makes it different. A team can indeed get promoted while losing a final. So completely different than Championship when you go up only by winning the thing through. Isn't it more likely that teams not good enough go up a level? By that very metric, League placing are not as important than Championship ones. To get promoted in Championship, you've shown you're good enough in Championship. Same with relegation, be poor enough you go down. We cannot say the same about League.

This absolute knicker twisting about League is only new since inter county linked, and it's still mainly by Championship performance first - then League. Remember that the majority of the 16 Sam positions are still filled by Championship results with provincial final and Tailteann winners. That system rewards Championship, and only fills in the remaining minority with League to fill it up. Jeez, have you folk actually forgot what the GAA is about? It's Championship. I'll name you Cavan, Ulster, and All Ireland Champions off the top of my head going back at least 50 years. Can't tell you who won the various Leagues a few years back... That's tells you all

You simply have to accept that the anomaly in a county that doesn't link is the League. Not the other way round. Can you for a second look at it from the other direction and see that maybe it is Championship that begets Championship. Not this new League obsession that you don't understand and you try to twist to suit a narrative. If your county links, sure whatever. Go for it. But don't apply those standards to one who doesn't as teams would them otherwise try harder in League. Because it's not, they don't and you can't apply this retroactively. It's that simple

I have said, regardless of the other bandwagon jumpers, that Cavan and Avra have done nowt wrong, how Cavan and Kerry run their championships is totally down to them and if it makes them a stronger county for that or allows players to concentrate on championship then brilliant.

But the other counties shouldn't have to run up against teams playing or preparing for a championship (regardless if they were rock bottom) while playing in the counties div 1 league, the level and effort required is higher. Kerry have milked the shit right out of it.

Other counties could have a monopoly of winning the All Ireland championships at intermediate and Junior but chose not too, namely Dublin and Cork

[general_lee]

Is there any other county in Ireland where the Senior, intermediate and junior championship winners all came from the same league division?

[Dreadnought]

Maybe, just maybe, some here might realise that League is just different in most counties and not taken as seriously. The fact that teams play the whole thing (relegation play off excepted) with no county players, and that it's 2 up 2 down makes it different. A team can indeed get promoted while losing a final. So completely different than Championship when you go up only by winning the thing through. Isn't it more likely that teams not good enough go up a level? By that very metric, League placing are not as important than Championship ones. To get promoted in Championship, you've shown you're good enough in Championship. Same with relegation, be poor enough you go down. We cannot say the same about League.

This absolute knicker twisting about League is only new since inter county linked, and it's still mainly by Championship performance first - then League. Remember that the majority of the 16 Sam positions are still filled by Championship results with provincial final and Tailteann winners. That system rewards Championship, and only fills in the remaining minority with League to fill it up. Jeez, have you folk actually forgot what the GAA is about? It's Championship. I'll name you Cavan, Ulster, and All Ireland Champions off the top of my head going back at least 50 years. Can't tell you who won the various Leagues a few years back... That's tells you all

You simply have to accept that the anomaly in a county that doesn't link is the League. Not the other way round. Can you for a second look at it from the other direction and see that maybe it is Championship that begets Championship. Not this new League obsession that you don't understand and you try to twist to suit a narrative. If your county links, sure whatever. Go for it. But don't apply those standards to one who doesn't as teams would them otherwise try harder in League. Because it's not, they don't and you can't apply this retroactively. It's that simple

I have said, regardless of the other bandwagon jumpers, that Cavan and Avra have done nowt wrong, how Cavan and Kerry run their championships is totally down to them and if it makes them a stronger county for that or allows players to concentrate on championship then brilliant.

But the other counties shouldn't have to run up against teams playing or preparing for a championship (regardless if they were rock bottom) while playing in the counties div 1 league, the level and effort required is higher. Kerry have milked the shit right out of it.

Other counties could have a monopoly of winning the All Ireland championships at intermediate and Junior but chose not too, namely Dublin and Cork

How are you still not getting it? You are still valuing League placings higher than you should. You simply need to look past placings in a devalued competition, and instead look at the actual top level way of seeing placings - Championship.

[intheknowhow]

Maybe, just maybe, some here might realise that League is just different in most counties and not taken as seriously. The fact that teams play the whole thing (relegation play off excepted) with no county players, and that it's 2 up 2 down makes it different. A team can indeed get promoted while losing a final. So completely different than Championship when you go up only by winning the thing through. Isn't it more likely that teams not good enough go up a level? By that very metric, League placing are not as important than Championship ones. To get promoted in Championship, you've shown you're good enough in Championship. Same with relegation, be poor enough you go down. We cannot say the same about League.

This absolute knicker twisting about League is only new since inter county linked, and it's still mainly by Championship performance first - then League. Remember that the majority of the 16 Sam positions are still filled by Championship results with provincial final and Tailteann winners. That system rewards Championship, and only fills in the remaining minority with League to fill it up. Jeez, have you folk actually forgot what the GAA is about? It's Championship. I'll name you Cavan, Ulster, and All Ireland Champions off the top of my head going back at least 50 years. Can't tell you who won the various Leagues a few years back... That's tells you all

You simply have to accept that the anomaly in a county that doesn't link is the League. Not the other way round. Can you for a second look at it from the other direction and see that maybe it is Championship that begets Championship. Not this new League obsession that you don't understand and you try to twist to suit a narrative. If your county links, sure whatever. Go for it. But don't apply those standards to one who doesn't as teams would them otherwise try harder in League. Because it's not, they don't and you can't apply this retroactively. It's that simple

I have said, regardless of the other bandwagon jumpers, that Cavan and Avra have done nowt wrong, how Cavan and Kerry run their championships is totally down to them and if it makes them a stronger county for that or allows players to concentrate on championship then brilliant.

But the other counties shouldn't have to run up against teams playing or preparing for a championship (regardless if they were rock bottom) while playing in the counties div 1 league, the level and effort required is higher. Kerry have milked the shit right out of it.

Other counties could have a monopoly of winning the All Ireland championships at intermediate and Junior but chose not too, namely Dublin and Cork

How are you still not getting it? You are still valuing League placings higher than you should. You simply need to look past placings in a devalued competition, and instead look at the actual top level way of seeing placings - Championship.

You are the one not getting it.... Every single post is just denial.. bla bla this is how we do things in Cavan.. bla bla we don't link our league and champ.. bla bla how can no one understand this? FS we all understand what you're saying.....

[SouthOfThe Bann]

Is there any other county in Ireland where the Senior, intermediate and junior championship winners all came from the same league division?

I'm not sure but the 3rd ranked team in Division 1 in Kerry couldn't even win Junior.

[ranch]

I'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.

[GTP]

As things stand in Derry, Division 2 Lavey could win the Senior Championship whilst Division 1 Ballinderry could win Intermediate Championship.
Would Lavey then be deemed too weak for USFC and Ballinderry too strong for UIFC?
If a club wins a championship at their level let them compete at provincial and All-Ireland level if they get that far and let them enjoy it - you'll always end up with a winner who is stronger than the rest be it because they play Division 1 football in their home county or they got an influx of players returning, transferring or coming through at underage.
A lot more people on the board can follow Cavan football this year to test if Avra are simply a very good junior side or the system was skewed in their favour.

[imtommygunn]

I'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.

I would kind of be like this too. Reading some of the posts here you would think Arva have been throwing games for years to get to this position.

The split season has a massive impact on leagues. Clubs with very few county players will have over inflated league positions and the flip side of that will probably apply too. Arguably it was like that anyway tbh.

[bennydorano]

I'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.

That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)

[Dreadnought]

Maybe, just maybe, some here might realise that League is just different in most counties and not taken as seriously. The fact that teams play the whole thing (relegation play off excepted) with no county players, and that it's 2 up 2 down makes it different. A team can indeed get promoted while losing a final. So completely different than Championship when you go up only by winning the thing through. Isn't it more likely that teams not good enough go up a level? By that very metric, League placing are not as important than Championship ones. To get promoted in Championship, you've shown you're good enough in Championship. Same with relegation, be poor enough you go down. We cannot say the same about League.

This absolute knicker twisting about League is only new since inter county linked, and it's still mainly by Championship performance first - then League. Remember that the majority of the 16 Sam positions are still filled by Championship results with provincial final and Tailteann winners. That system rewards Championship, and only fills in the remaining minority with League to fill it up. Jeez, have you folk actually forgot what the GAA is about? It's Championship. I'll name you Cavan, Ulster, and All Ireland Champions off the top of my head going back at least 50 years. Can't tell you who won the various Leagues a few years back... That's tells you all

You simply have to accept that the anomaly in a county that doesn't link is the League. Not the other way round. Can you for a second look at it from the other direction and see that maybe it is Championship that begets Championship. Not this new League obsession that you don't understand and you try to twist to suit a narrative. If your county links, sure whatever. Go for it. But don't apply those standards to one who doesn't as teams would them otherwise try harder in League. Because it's not, they don't and you can't apply this retroactively. It's that simple

I have said, regardless of the other bandwagon jumpers, that Cavan and Avra have done nowt wrong, how Cavan and Kerry run their championships is totally down to them and if it makes them a stronger county for that or allows players to concentrate on championship then brilliant.

But the other counties shouldn't have to run up against teams playing or preparing for a championship (regardless if they were rock bottom) while playing in the counties div 1 league, the level and effort required is higher. Kerry have milked the shit right out of it.

Other counties could have a monopoly of winning the All Ireland championships at intermediate and Junior but chose not too, namely Dublin and Cork

How are you still not getting it? You are still valuing League placings higher than you should. You simply need to look past placings in a devalued competition, and instead look at the actual top level way of seeing placings - Championship.

You are the one not getting it.... Every single post is just denial.. bla bla this is how we do things in Cavan.. bla bla we don't link our league and champ.. bla bla how can no one understand this? FS we all understand what you're saying.....

Buddy, every one of yours posts this thread here is bla bla, crying, bla bla. You not exhausted crying about League being everything? Dry up