Cork fans flying the confederate flag

Started by Eamonnca1, August 14, 2017, 06:46:45 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

BennyCake

Quote from: omaghjoe on August 18, 2017, 03:31:04 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 18, 2017, 08:59:17 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 18, 2017, 07:09:28 AM
These Nazi All-Ireland medals should be handed back in and the design changed forthwith.... it would cause consternation in Kerry as they might have to change their currency.

What are you talking about

That a Celtic Cross is probably the most common symbol of the modern far right in Europe.
Being much more widespread and in those places more exclusive to those "causes" than the confederate flag.

Can you explain the Celtic Cross controversy?

BennyCake

Quote from: omaghjoe on August 18, 2017, 09:00:16 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 18, 2017, 05:43:39 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2017, 05:29:06 PM
Isn't the red hand the symbol of the O'Neills who led the Irish Rebellion of 1641?

Nope, goes way back beyond that particular rebellion (in origin), but well adopted by then, true.

Was it adopted by the confederacy? dont think so? Besides it could be argued the confederacy had more in common with loyalist considering their pledge of loyalty to the English crown and interest in self governance. Not to mention their defeat to the first Republicans in Ireland?  :P
Also what were were the O'Neills interested in? Certainly prior to this it was about maintaining control of their fifedom in Ulster and it would be safe to assume that they seen the confedercy as a vessel to regaining that.

This is all well besides the point anyway as we are talking about ridding the association from symbols with prominent associations of present day far right groups. Of which the Red Hand and especially the Celtic Cross are two of the most conspicuous within the association

I suppose if you're talking about controversial links, then the IRA leaders thing is of similar controversy to Confederates flag. The Protestants/Loyalists do have a point when raising that issue.

Eamonnca1

Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
I suppose if you're talking about controversial links, then the IRA leaders thing is of similar controversy to Confederates flag. The Protestants/Loyalists do have a point when raising that issue.

If I had my way there'd be a rule saying you can't name a club after someone who was notable for their involvement in political violence within the last 70 years. So you could still call your club Sarsfield's but not Bobby Sands'.

LCohen

A lot of symbols have a mixed or confused history. This allows current users to point to the positive history.

Not sure what the positive history of the confederate flag is that Cork fans would point to is?

omaghjoe

Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2017, 10:29:10 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 18, 2017, 03:31:04 PM
Quote from: tonto1888 on August 18, 2017, 08:59:17 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on August 18, 2017, 07:09:28 AM
These Nazi All-Ireland medals should be handed back in and the design changed forthwith.... it would cause consternation in Kerry as they might have to change their currency.

What are you talking about

That a Celtic Cross is probably the most common symbol of the modern far right in Europe.
Being much more widespread and in those places more exclusive to those "causes" than the confederate flag.

Can you explain the Celtic Cross controversy?

magpie seanie

A bit depressing seeing the ignorance of some on this thread. The confederate flag is something I'd equate with a swastika or KKK hood/costume. I find it difficult to believe most people would not understand the deeply racist connotations of such a flag. And surely someone near the clown(s) who had this flag would have known and had the sense to tell them to take it down. I know i would if I were there. I'd be mortified if I were from Cork. It's not cool and it's not funny. The defence of it on this thread is sickening and very depressing to be honest.

omaghjoe

Quote from: LCohen on August 18, 2017, 10:44:15 PM
A lot of symbols have a mixed or confused history. This allows current users to point to the positive history.

Not sure what the positive history of the confederate flag is that Cork fans would point to is?

Southern Identity/CUlture
Rebelliousness/Restless spirit
Wilie Nelson
Dukes of Hazard

Eamonnca1

From today's Irish Times letters page:

Sir, – If Cork fans want to fly the Confederate battle flag, that is their choice. If, as some may claim, it is a harmless flag, in the context, and is only used for its colours, well, there is another flag to hand that they may use that contains the same red, white and blue, ie the British flag.

No takers? I didn't think so, given the reputation of the Tans in Cork. Well, now they know what "offensive" means. – Yours, etc,

GEARÓID Ó LOINGSIGH,
Calle,
Bogotá,
Colombia.

Eamonnca1

Quote from: hardstation on August 18, 2017, 10:56:06 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2017, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
I suppose if you're talking about controversial links, then the IRA leaders thing is of similar controversy to Confederates flag. The Protestants/Loyalists do have a point when raising that issue.

If I had my way there'd be a rule saying you can't name a club after someone who was notable for their involvement in political violence within the last 70 years. So you could still call your club Sarsfield's but not Bobby Sands'.
Is that a rolling 70 years or particularly pre-1947?



A rolling 70 years. Enough time for the dust to settle. Fewer people around to still be bitter enough to make a big deal about it. That sort of thing.

omaghjoe

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2017, 01:18:20 AM
Quote from: hardstation on August 18, 2017, 10:56:06 PM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 18, 2017, 10:36:42 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on August 18, 2017, 10:31:39 PM
I suppose if you're talking about controversial links, then the IRA leaders thing is of similar controversy to Confederates flag. The Protestants/Loyalists do have a point when raising that issue.

If I had my way there'd be a rule saying you can't name a club after someone who was notable for their involvement in political violence within the last 70 years. So you could still call your club Sarsfield's but not Bobby Sands'.
Is that a rolling 70 years or particularly pre-1947?



A rolling 70 years. Enough time for the dust to settle. Fewer people around to still be bitter enough to make a big deal about it. That sort of thing.

Would these rules not leave us free to use the Confederate battle flag tho?
Does this include all political violence? inc sovereign armed forces?
You would be eligible to get San Jose Hitlers GFC goin then too wha?

stephenite

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2017, 01:16:45 AM
From today's Irish Times letters page:

Sir, – If Cork fans want to fly the Confederate battle flag, that is their choice. If, as some may claim, it is a harmless flag, in the context, and is only used for its colours, well, there is another flag to hand that they may use that contains the same red, white and blue, ie the British flag.

No takers? I didn't think so, given the reputation of the Tans in Cork. Well, now they know what "offensive" means. – Yours, etc,

GEARÓID Ó LOINGSIGH,
Calle,
Bogotá,
Colombia.

Brilliant

An Fhairche Abu

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 18, 2017, 11:00:13 PM
A bit depressing seeing the ignorance of some on this thread. The confederate flag is something I'd equate with a swastika or KKK hood/costume. I find it difficult to believe most people would not understand the deeply racist connotations of such a flag. And surely someone near the clown(s) who had this flag would have known and had the sense to tell them to take it down. I know i would if I were there. I'd be mortified if I were from Cork. It's not cool and it's not funny. The defence of it on this thread is sickening and very depressing to be honest.

Well said, can't understand by the stanch defence of this by some, can the langers just not bring a Cork flag with them?

vallankumous

Quote from: Eamonnca1 on August 19, 2017, 01:16:45 AM
From today's Irish Times letters page:

Sir, – If Cork fans want to fly the Confederate battle flag, that is their choice. If, as some may claim, it is a harmless flag, in the context, and is only used for its colours, well, there is another flag to hand that they may use that contains the same red, white and blue, ie the British flag.

No takers? I didn't think so, given the reputation of the Tans in Cork. Well, now they know what "offensive" means. – Yours, etc,

GEARÓID Ó LOINGSIGH,
Calle,
Bogotá,
Colombia.

I'd say the Confederate flag being used by Cork fans is a symbol of secession from the Union.
It's probably more about 'the people's republic of Cork' than anything else.
To suggest it could be replaced with the Union Jack is a silly cheap shot.

LCohen

Quote from: omaghjoe on August 19, 2017, 12:07:33 AM
Quote from: LCohen on August 18, 2017, 10:44:15 PM
A lot of symbols have a mixed or confused history. This allows current users to point to the positive history.

Not sure what the positive history of the confederate flag is that Cork fans would point to is?

Southern Identity/CUlture
Rebelliousness/Restless spirit
Wilie Nelson
Dukes of Hazard

Other emblems do each of the first 2 couplets. Other confederate flags even do that. But the flag of choice is the one that was specifically designed to rally the south to the protection of the god given supremacy of white men over all other races.

It's other uses are
A) A focal point for rednecks who continue to believe in their supremacy and
B) A fashion item for people who are ignorant in an era when information is all around them

Cork people seem to want to create a C) category i.e. People who want to copy people in category B) because copying the ignorant is a more acceptable form of ignorance

Just lift a different flag on the way out the door

Meadbh

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 18, 2017, 11:00:13 PM
A bit depressing seeing the ignorance of some on this thread. The confederate flag is something I'd equate with a swastika or KKK hood/costume. I find it difficult to believe most people would not understand the deeply racist connotations of such a flag. And surely someone near the clown(s) who had this flag would have known and had the sense to tell them to take it down. I know i would if I were there. I'd be mortified if I were from Cork. It's not cool and it's not funny. The defence of it on this thread is sickening and very depressing to be honest.

Couldn't agree more.