Poll

Should the Covid 19 vaccination(s) become mandatory by law in Ireland(North and South)?

Yes
45 (50%)
No
45 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 90

Voting closed: November 24, 2021, 10:49:12 PM

Author Topic: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination  (Read 5628 times)

sid waddell

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #60 on: November 24, 2021, 12:58:47 PM »


Have you heard of anyone getting polio recently?

No. That's because 100% vaccine rollout does work.
Dunno if it that's for my benefit? It won't work because you can't force people to take it - physically (or morally).
Do you have children? If so did you have them vaccinated against various illnesses?
What has that got to do with the price of butter?  I'm not talking about the rights and wrongs of it, it's the practicalities.  Current situation is there's millions  of militant anti-vaxxers you can't physically force vaccinate them ffs.

Would a woke Liberal like yourself advocate forcefully vaccinating refuseniks - Literally holding a person down and injecting them?
I asked you a question.

Why don't you answer it?
Yes my kids are vaccinated (& for covid), I'm not stupid nor anti-vax. I really don't see the point of your Question in this context, wasting my time is all you're doing.

Do you think mandatory vaccination for Covid in the current circumstances will work? Physically forcing people to take an injection if required?
So you forced your kids to be vaccinated. Because what else is vaccinating babies and young children?

You say morally we can't force anybody to take a vaccine.

Morally we can put in place measures which make it extremely difficult for them to function as part of society if they refuse to be vaccinated.

And given the stakes, it would be more than justified.

You mean follow a possible route like the one I already outlined and is already being employed - Covid passports?

[Mandatory vaccination won't work. Covid passports are a much better tool to engender compliance. No vaccine = no covid passport - that's a person's own look out, if you're denied entry to places because you've no covid passport, that's tough titty for you and a bonus for the vaccinated public.]

Please outline how you would plan to physically make refuseniks submit to a vaccine injection.
Vaccine mandates do work. They've been in use in America for centuries.

Italy is currently using them.

I have no problem in saying I favour no vaccine, no job. And no welfare.

We'd soon see how "principled" the flat earthers are then.

Eire90

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2021, 01:06:05 PM »
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10233341/Musician-40-suffered-brain-haemorrhage-induced-AstraZeneca-Covid-vaccine-inquest-hears.html




so was he a flat earther too you said lets see how principled flat earthers are well how about politicians face the death penalty if someone has a severe side effect why do your precious politicians get to sit back with no penalty if they think the vaccine is so safe what do they have to worry about.

Eire90

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2021, 01:07:12 PM »


Have you heard of anyone getting polio recently?

No. That's because 100% vaccine rollout does work.
Dunno if it that's for my benefit? It won't work because you can't force people to take it - physically (or morally).
Do you have children? If so did you have them vaccinated against various illnesses?
What has that got to do with the price of butter?  I'm not talking about the rights and wrongs of it, it's the practicalities.  Current situation is there's millions  of militant anti-vaxxers you can't physically force vaccinate them ffs.

Would a woke Liberal like yourself advocate forcefully vaccinating refuseniks - Literally holding a person down and injecting them?
I asked you a question.

Why don't you answer it?
Yes my kids are vaccinated (& for covid), I'm not stupid nor anti-vax. I really don't see the point of your Question in this context, wasting my time is all you're doing.

Do you think mandatory vaccination for Covid in the current circumstances will work? Physically forcing people to take an injection if required?
So you forced your kids to be vaccinated. Because what else is vaccinating babies and young children?

You say morally we can't force anybody to take a vaccine.

Morally we can put in place measures which make it extremely difficult for them to function as part of society if they refuse to be vaccinated.

And given the stakes, it would be more than justified.

You mean follow a possible route like the one I already outlined and is already being employed - Covid passports?

[Mandatory vaccination won't work. Covid passports are a much better tool to engender compliance. No vaccine = no covid passport - that's a person's own look out, if you're denied entry to places because you've no covid passport, that's tough titty for you and a bonus for the vaccinated public.]

Please outline how you would plan to physically make refuseniks submit to a vaccine injection.
Vaccine mandates do work. They've been in use in America for centuries.

Italy is currently using them.

I have no problem in saying I favour no vaccine, no job. And no welfare.

We'd soon see how "principled" the flat earthers are then.






we will soon see how principled your precious politicians are if they face death penalty for any severe adverse reactions it should work both ways if you want this

Eire90

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2021, 01:09:55 PM »
so you want politicians to get away scott free if someone has an adverse reaction  you think politicians should be some sort of protected class and also the manufactures should be prosecuted aswell you want people to be principled but ohhh no precious politicians need protected from what would be state manslaughter at least if anything happens.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 01:12:39 PM by Eire90 »

grounded

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2021, 01:13:04 PM »
When driving on the road I don't just want to drive sober I want those around me to drive sober also.

Yes this is my opinion too.
Covid can be as deadly as drink driving and probably moreso.
It's an unprecedented situation we find ourselves in and with that unprecedented measures are needed. Vaccines reduce the risk of catching and dying from Covid, but don't eliminate the risk.
We all want some resemblance of pre-covid life in terms of socialising, work and holidays and the only way to get that is with everyone vaccinated, imo.
Even with that there is risk and I think we are never going to abolish covid entirely but have to learn to live with it.

If vaccines are not going to be mandatory, the ONLY option is that the unvaccinated can't socialise, work and interact with the rest of us. Controversial I know, but I think it has to be one or the other. Covid passports at a minimum but probably both mandatory vaccine and a passport to prove you've had it.
We, the public, have had the chance to be sensible by taking the vaccines and not abusing the freedoms we take for granted. But too many un-vaccinated people interacting has got us to where we are now and something has to change.
Incidentally, I know of several people with fake vaccine cards so they can go into bars in the South. Absolute sc**bag move in my opinion, but highlights the requirement for passports to be digital and controlled.

 Who gets to decide which of their liberties/freedoms are removed and which they might be allowed to keep?
      Surely if the unvaccinated can't work, socialise or interact with the vaccinated it pretty much excludes them from society.
      So they can't go to work, school, public hospitals/clinics, places of worship public amenities/areas etc. I'd guess given the nature of the current voting system they wouldn't be able to vote.
      (Perhaps they might be allowed a postal ballot or maybe a seperate polling station).
       One hypothetical question for you (excluding the unvaccinated who would already be dealt by this exclusion)
          Lets just say it could be proven, that one particular cohort or group in society(even if they were vaccinated) were significantly more prone to both carching and transmittng the covid 19 virus than the general population should they also have some of their freedoms removed/curtailed?
        Surely the logic is the same? By removing that small cohort from society you are protecting the general public from the virus. You are lessening the burden on the Hospitals and in particularly the acute services in ICU.
        Of course you could use the argument that the group didnt have a choice as the unvaccinated do,  but in that case the exclusion of the the unvaccinated would then be surely seen as some form of punishment for not getting vaccinated as opposed to protecting the public health and lessening the burden on our overstretched health services. Isn't this what its all about?
       

The point I'm making is that there is an option there which would permit everyone to play a full part in society and help reduce the spread of covid. That option is the vaccine.
By not choosing to avail of that option then you are instead choosing to put other people at risk as well as yourself.

To go back to the drink driving analogy, it's illegal to drink and drive to protect other road users. It is still the responsibility of the driver to follow the law or ignore it. If they ignore by drinking and driving they put others lives at risk. There is a strong parallel here with covid vaccines.
To expand further, there is already precedent for other cohorts to not be allowed to drive. People who speed, people who have medical issues etc. So to answer your query, if there is a cohort of people who are an increased risk of spreading covid then that risk would need to be assessed and if deemed serious enough then yes, some type of measure would need to be put in place to protect the masses who avail of vaccines and follow the regulations.

I have yet to hear a good reason for not taking the vaccine. It is currently a choice, but that choice should not afford you the same freedoms as the rest of us given what we have come through so far.

Ok. Lets go with that. If its about protecting the health service and reducing numbers in ICU lets include over 75's, any body with serious underlying health conditions or particularly vulnerable groups in this passport.
         Those groups are disproportionately represented in the numbers who get seriously ill and end up in ICU with covid.
        We will simultaneously be both protecting them and reducing the strain on the health services.
         
         
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 01:15:03 PM by grounded »

armaghniac

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2021, 02:20:07 PM »
When driving on the road I don't just want to drive sober I want those around me to drive sober also.

Yes this is my opinion too.
Covid can be as deadly as drink driving and probably moreso.
It's an unprecedented situation we find ourselves in and with that unprecedented measures are needed. Vaccines reduce the risk of catching and dying from Covid, but don't eliminate the risk.
We all want some resemblance of pre-covid life in terms of socialising, work and holidays and the only way to get that is with everyone vaccinated, imo.
Even with that there is risk and I think we are never going to abolish covid entirely but have to learn to live with it.

If vaccines are not going to be mandatory, the ONLY option is that the unvaccinated can't socialise, work and interact with the rest of us. Controversial I know, but I think it has to be one or the other. Covid passports at a minimum but probably both mandatory vaccine and a passport to prove you've had it.
We, the public, have had the chance to be sensible by taking the vaccines and not abusing the freedoms we take for granted. But too many un-vaccinated people interacting has got us to where we are now and something has to change.
Incidentally, I know of several people with fake vaccine cards so they can go into bars in the South. Absolute sc**bag move in my opinion, but highlights the requirement for passports to be digital and controlled.

 Who gets to decide which of their liberties/freedoms are removed and which they might be allowed to keep?
      Surely if the unvaccinated can't work, socialise or interact with the vaccinated it pretty much excludes them from society.
      So they can't go to work, school, public hospitals/clinics, places of worship public amenities/areas etc. I'd guess given the nature of the current voting system they wouldn't be able to vote.
      (Perhaps they might be allowed a postal ballot or maybe a seperate polling station).
       One hypothetical question for you (excluding the unvaccinated who would already be dealt by this exclusion)
          Lets just say it could be proven, that one particular cohort or group in society(even if they were vaccinated) were significantly more prone to both carching and transmittng the covid 19 virus than the general population should they also have some of their freedoms removed/curtailed?
        Surely the logic is the same? By removing that small cohort from society you are protecting the general public from the virus. You are lessening the burden on the Hospitals and in particularly the acute services in ICU.
        Of course you could use the argument that the group didnt have a choice as the unvaccinated do,  but in that case the exclusion of the the unvaccinated would then be surely seen as some form of punishment for not getting vaccinated as opposed to protecting the public health and lessening the burden on our overstretched health services. Isn't this what its all about?
       

The point I'm making is that there is an option there which would permit everyone to play a full part in society and help reduce the spread of covid. That option is the vaccine.
By not choosing to avail of that option then you are instead choosing to put other people at risk as well as yourself.

To go back to the drink driving analogy, it's illegal to drink and drive to protect other road users. It is still the responsibility of the driver to follow the law or ignore it. If they ignore by drinking and driving they put others lives at risk. There is a strong parallel here with covid vaccines.
To expand further, there is already precedent for other cohorts to not be allowed to drive. People who speed, people who have medical issues etc. So to answer your query, if there is a cohort of people who are an increased risk of spreading covid then that risk would need to be assessed and if deemed serious enough then yes, some type of measure would need to be put in place to protect the masses who avail of vaccines and follow the regulations.

I have yet to hear a good reason for not taking the vaccine. It is currently a choice, but that choice should not afford you the same freedoms as the rest of us given what we have come through so far.

Ok. Lets go with that. If its about protecting the health service and reducing numbers in ICU lets include over 75's, any body with serious underlying health conditions or particularly vulnerable groups in this passport.
         Those groups are disproportionately represented in the numbers who get seriously ill and end up in ICU with covid.
        We will simultaneously be both protecting them and reducing the strain on the health services.
         
       

People cannot control the year they were born, they can control whether they are vaccinated.
If at first you don't succeed, then goto Plan B

tbrick18

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2021, 02:43:25 PM »
When driving on the road I don't just want to drive sober I want those around me to drive sober also.

Yes this is my opinion too.
Covid can be as deadly as drink driving and probably moreso.
It's an unprecedented situation we find ourselves in and with that unprecedented measures are needed. Vaccines reduce the risk of catching and dying from Covid, but don't eliminate the risk.
We all want some resemblance of pre-covid life in terms of socialising, work and holidays and the only way to get that is with everyone vaccinated, imo.
Even with that there is risk and I think we are never going to abolish covid entirely but have to learn to live with it.

If vaccines are not going to be mandatory, the ONLY option is that the unvaccinated can't socialise, work and interact with the rest of us. Controversial I know, but I think it has to be one or the other. Covid passports at a minimum but probably both mandatory vaccine and a passport to prove you've had it.
We, the public, have had the chance to be sensible by taking the vaccines and not abusing the freedoms we take for granted. But too many un-vaccinated people interacting has got us to where we are now and something has to change.
Incidentally, I know of several people with fake vaccine cards so they can go into bars in the South. Absolute sc**bag move in my opinion, but highlights the requirement for passports to be digital and controlled.

 Who gets to decide which of their liberties/freedoms are removed and which they might be allowed to keep?
      Surely if the unvaccinated can't work, socialise or interact with the vaccinated it pretty much excludes them from society.
      So they can't go to work, school, public hospitals/clinics, places of worship public amenities/areas etc. I'd guess given the nature of the current voting system they wouldn't be able to vote.
      (Perhaps they might be allowed a postal ballot or maybe a seperate polling station).
       One hypothetical question for you (excluding the unvaccinated who would already be dealt by this exclusion)
          Lets just say it could be proven, that one particular cohort or group in society(even if they were vaccinated) were significantly more prone to both carching and transmittng the covid 19 virus than the general population should they also have some of their freedoms removed/curtailed?
        Surely the logic is the same? By removing that small cohort from society you are protecting the general public from the virus. You are lessening the burden on the Hospitals and in particularly the acute services in ICU.
        Of course you could use the argument that the group didnt have a choice as the unvaccinated do,  but in that case the exclusion of the the unvaccinated would then be surely seen as some form of punishment for not getting vaccinated as opposed to protecting the public health and lessening the burden on our overstretched health services. Isn't this what its all about?
       

The point I'm making is that there is an option there which would permit everyone to play a full part in society and help reduce the spread of covid. That option is the vaccine.
By not choosing to avail of that option then you are instead choosing to put other people at risk as well as yourself.

To go back to the drink driving analogy, it's illegal to drink and drive to protect other road users. It is still the responsibility of the driver to follow the law or ignore it. If they ignore by drinking and driving they put others lives at risk. There is a strong parallel here with covid vaccines.
To expand further, there is already precedent for other cohorts to not be allowed to drive. People who speed, people who have medical issues etc. So to answer your query, if there is a cohort of people who are an increased risk of spreading covid then that risk would need to be assessed and if deemed serious enough then yes, some type of measure would need to be put in place to protect the masses who avail of vaccines and follow the regulations.

I have yet to hear a good reason for not taking the vaccine. It is currently a choice, but that choice should not afford you the same freedoms as the rest of us given what we have come through so far.

Ok. Lets go with that. If its about protecting the health service and reducing numbers in ICU lets include over 75's, any body with serious underlying health conditions or particularly vulnerable groups in this passport.
         Those groups are disproportionately represented in the numbers who get seriously ill and end up in ICU with covid.
        We will simultaneously be both protecting them and reducing the strain on the health services.
         
       

The over 75s have one of the highest rates of uptake of the vaccine. They, like any other age group, can spread covid and get sick from it.
The fact they are vaccinated and not putting others lives at risk means they fully deserve the freedoms afforded to all the vaccinated as they have fulfilled their moral duty to protect us all.
Age is irrelevant in this debate and no modern developed society would treat someone differently due to age.
Those who are responsible enough to try to protect others should not have any restrictions put on them due to their age.
Bit of a nonsense point in my opinion.

Thastheball

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2021, 02:51:23 PM »
When driving on the road I don't just want to drive sober I want those around me to drive sober also.

Yes this is my opinion too.
Covid can be as deadly as drink driving and probably moreso.
It's an unprecedented situation we find ourselves in and with that unprecedented measures are needed. Vaccines reduce the risk of catching and dying from Covid, but don't eliminate the risk.
We all want some resemblance of pre-covid life in terms of socialising, work and holidays and the only way to get that is with everyone vaccinated, imo.
Even with that there is risk and I think we are never going to abolish covid entirely but have to learn to live with it.

If vaccines are not going to be mandatory, the ONLY option is that the unvaccinated can't socialise, work and interact with the rest of us. Controversial I know, but I think it has to be one or the other. Covid passports at a minimum but probably both mandatory vaccine and a passport to prove you've had it.
We, the public, have had the chance to be sensible by taking the vaccines and not abusing the freedoms we take for granted. But too many un-vaccinated people interacting has got us to where we are now and something has to change.
Incidentally, I know of several people with fake vaccine cards so they can go into bars in the South. Absolute sc**bag move in my opinion, but highlights the requirement for passports to be digital and controlled.

 Who gets to decide which of their liberties/freedoms are removed and which they might be allowed to keep?
      Surely if the unvaccinated can't work, socialise or interact with the vaccinated it pretty much excludes them from society.
      So they can't go to work, school, public hospitals/clinics, places of worship public amenities/areas etc. I'd guess given the nature of the current voting system they wouldn't be able to vote.
      (Perhaps they might be allowed a postal ballot or maybe a seperate polling station).
       One hypothetical question for you (excluding the unvaccinated who would already be dealt by this exclusion)
          Lets just say it could be proven, that one particular cohort or group in society(even if they were vaccinated) were significantly more prone to both carching and transmittng the covid 19 virus than the general population should they also have some of their freedoms removed/curtailed?
        Surely the logic is the same? By removing that small cohort from society you are protecting the general public from the virus. You are lessening the burden on the Hospitals and in particularly the acute services in ICU.
        Of course you could use the argument that the group didnt have a choice as the unvaccinated do,  but in that case the exclusion of the the unvaccinated would then be surely seen as some form of punishment for not getting vaccinated as opposed to protecting the public health and lessening the burden on our overstretched health services. Isn't this what its all about?
       

The point I'm making is that there is an option there which would permit everyone to play a full part in society and help reduce the spread of covid. That option is the vaccine.
By not choosing to avail of that option then you are instead choosing to put other people at risk as well as yourself.

To go back to the drink driving analogy, it's illegal to drink and drive to protect other road users. It is still the responsibility of the driver to follow the law or ignore it. If they ignore by drinking and driving they put others lives at risk. There is a strong parallel here with covid vaccines.
To expand further, there is already precedent for other cohorts to not be allowed to drive. People who speed, people who have medical issues etc. So to answer your query, if there is a cohort of people who are an increased risk of spreading covid then that risk would need to be assessed and if deemed serious enough then yes, some type of measure would need to be put in place to protect the masses who avail of vaccines and follow the regulations.

I have yet to hear a good reason for not taking the vaccine. It is currently a choice, but that choice should not afford you the same freedoms as the rest of us given what we have come through so far.

Ok. Lets go with that. If its about protecting the health service and reducing numbers in ICU lets include over 75's, any body with serious underlying health conditions or particularly vulnerable groups in this passport.
         Those groups are disproportionately represented in the numbers who get seriously ill and end up in ICU with covid.
        We will simultaneously be both protecting them and reducing the strain on the health services.
         
       

The over 75s have one of the highest rates of uptake of the vaccine. They, like any other age group, can spread covid and get sick from it.
The fact they are vaccinated and not putting others lives at risk means they fully deserve the freedoms afforded to all the vaccinated as they have fulfilled their moral duty to protect us all.
Age is irrelevant in this debate and no modern developed society would treat someone differently due to age.
Those who are responsible enough to try to protect others should not have any restrictions put on them due to their age.
Bit of a nonsense point in my opinion.

wrong and wrong, vaccinated people spread it also, so they can put others at risk. Stop talking bull.I accept they re reduced, but don't promote that as fact. Israel is reporting most of their pts in ICU are vaccinated.

grounded

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2021, 03:03:09 PM »
When driving on the road I don't just want to drive sober I want those around me to drive sober also.

Yes this is my opinion too.
Covid can be as deadly as drink driving and probably moreso.
It's an unprecedented situation we find ourselves in and with that unprecedented measures are needed. Vaccines reduce the risk of catching and dying from Covid, but don't eliminate the risk.
We all want some resemblance of pre-covid life in terms of socialising, work and holidays and the only way to get that is with everyone vaccinated, imo.
Even with that there is risk and I think we are never going to abolish covid entirely but have to learn to live with it.

If vaccines are not going to be mandatory, the ONLY option is that the unvaccinated can't socialise, work and interact with the rest of us. Controversial I know, but I think it has to be one or the other. Covid passports at a minimum but probably both mandatory vaccine and a passport to prove you've had it.
We, the public, have had the chance to be sensible by taking the vaccines and not abusing the freedoms we take for granted. But too many un-vaccinated people interacting has got us to where we are now and something has to change.
Incidentally, I know of several people with fake vaccine cards so they can go into bars in the South. Absolute sc**bag move in my opinion, but highlights the requirement for passports to be digital and controlled.

 Who gets to decide which of their liberties/freedoms are removed and which they might be allowed to keep?
      Surely if the unvaccinated can't work, socialise or interact with the vaccinated it pretty much excludes them from society.
      So they can't go to work, school, public hospitals/clinics, places of worship public amenities/areas etc. I'd guess given the nature of the current voting system they wouldn't be able to vote.
      (Perhaps they might be allowed a postal ballot or maybe a seperate polling station).
       One hypothetical question for you (excluding the unvaccinated who would already be dealt by this exclusion)
          Lets just say it could be proven, that one particular cohort or group in society(even if they were vaccinated) were significantly more prone to both carching and transmittng the covid 19 virus than the general population should they also have some of their freedoms removed/curtailed?
        Surely the logic is the same? By removing that small cohort from society you are protecting the general public from the virus. You are lessening the burden on the Hospitals and in particularly the acute services in ICU.
        Of course you could use the argument that the group didnt have a choice as the unvaccinated do,  but in that case the exclusion of the the unvaccinated would then be surely seen as some form of punishment for not getting vaccinated as opposed to protecting the public health and lessening the burden on our overstretched health services. Isn't this what its all about?
       

The point I'm making is that there is an option there which would permit everyone to play a full part in society and help reduce the spread of covid. That option is the vaccine.
By not choosing to avail of that option then you are instead choosing to put other people at risk as well as yourself.

To go back to the drink driving analogy, it's illegal to drink and drive to protect other road users. It is still the responsibility of the driver to follow the law or ignore it. If they ignore by drinking and driving they put others lives at risk. There is a strong parallel here with covid vaccines.
To expand further, there is already precedent for other cohorts to not be allowed to drive. People who speed, people who have medical issues etc. So to answer your query, if there is a cohort of people who are an increased risk of spreading covid then that risk would need to be assessed and if deemed serious enough then yes, some type of measure would need to be put in place to protect the masses who avail of vaccines and follow the regulations.

I have yet to hear a good reason for not taking the vaccine. It is currently a choice, but that choice should not afford you the same freedoms as the rest of us given what we have come through so far.

Ok. Lets go with that. If its about protecting the health service and reducing numbers in ICU lets include over 75's, any body with serious underlying health conditions or particularly vulnerable groups in this passport.
         Those groups are disproportionately represented in the numbers who get seriously ill and end up in ICU with covid.
        We will simultaneously be both protecting them and reducing the strain on the health services.
         
       

People cannot control the year they were born, they can control whether they are vaccinated.

 I thought at the core of the current government measures are primarily to reduce the strain on the health services and in particular reduce the numbers in ICU.
      Am i wrong in that assertion?
As part of that, they have identified the unvaccinated as having an greater chance of contracting covid 19 and getting seriously ill and ultimately taking up one of those icu beds and causing a greater strain on the health service. They have introduced the covid passport as a result of this.
      Now those aged over 75, those with serious underlying issues health and certain other vulnerable groups are disproportionately represented in the seriously sick and ICU occupancy in relation to covid 19 infection.
        Now if you are going on the above assertion should they not also be included on this passport (It can be called a health certification passport). Surely thats the logical step?
       Is it perhaps that the covid passport is being used as form of coercion for those unvaccinated? A punishment if you will. They deserve it. They are a pretty easy identifiable scapegoat. Probably dole scroungers anyway!
       Surely the real issue's are that the health services both north and south have been chronically underfunded for decades. Nobody could have predicted a pandemic but a properly funded and fuctioning health service would have coped much better. Ffs there have been people on trolleys at A&E every winter long before covid.
        My gripe is the trageting and stigmatising of one particular minority group in society and the removal of their liberties by government.
        Too many great men and women have sacrificed far too much, to see us piss away our freedoms and rights like this.
     
     
« Last Edit: November 24, 2021, 08:03:23 PM by grounded »

Rossfan

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #69 on: November 24, 2021, 03:25:28 PM »
Much polio round your neck of the woods?
Remember we're a noble race from a land where Kings once trod.

grounded

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #70 on: November 24, 2021, 04:00:24 PM »
When driving on the road I don't just want to drive sober I want those around me to drive sober also.

Yes this is my opinion too.
Covid can be as deadly as drink driving and probably moreso.
It's an unprecedented situation we find ourselves in and with that unprecedented measures are needed. Vaccines reduce the risk of catching and dying from Covid, but don't eliminate the risk.
We all want some resemblance of pre-covid life in terms of socialising, work and holidays and the only way to get that is with everyone vaccinated, imo.
Even with that there is risk and I think we are never going to abolish covid entirely but have to learn to live with it.

If vaccines are not going to be mandatory, the ONLY option is that the unvaccinated can't socialise, work and interact with the rest of us. Controversial I know, but I think it has to be one or the other. Covid passports at a minimum but probably both mandatory vaccine and a passport to prove you've had it.
We, the public, have had the chance to be sensible by taking the vaccines and not abusing the freedoms we take for granted. But too many un-vaccinated people interacting has got us to where we are now and something has to change.
Incidentally, I know of several people with fake vaccine cards so they can go into bars in the South. Absolute sc**bag move in my opinion, but highlights the requirement for passports to be digital and controlled.

 Who gets to decide which of their liberties/freedoms are removed and which they might be allowed to keep?
      Surely if the unvaccinated can't work, socialise or interact with the vaccinated it pretty much excludes them from society.
      So they can't go to work, school, public hospitals/clinics, places of worship public amenities/areas etc. I'd guess given the nature of the current voting system they wouldn't be able to vote.
      (Perhaps they might be allowed a postal ballot or maybe a seperate polling station).
       One hypothetical question for you (excluding the unvaccinated who would already be dealt by this exclusion)
          Lets just say it could be proven, that one particular cohort or group in society(even if they were vaccinated) were significantly more prone to both carching and transmittng the covid 19 virus than the general population should they also have some of their freedoms removed/curtailed?
        Surely the logic is the same? By removing that small cohort from society you are protecting the general public from the virus. You are lessening the burden on the Hospitals and in particularly the acute services in ICU.
        Of course you could use the argument that the group didnt have a choice as the unvaccinated do,  but in that case the exclusion of the the unvaccinated would then be surely seen as some form of punishment for not getting vaccinated as opposed to protecting the public health and lessening the burden on our overstretched health services. Isn't this what its all about?
       

The point I'm making is that there is an option there which would permit everyone to play a full part in society and help reduce the spread of covid. That option is the vaccine.
By not choosing to avail of that option then you are instead choosing to put other people at risk as well as yourself.

To go back to the drink driving analogy, it's illegal to drink and drive to protect other road users. It is still the responsibility of the driver to follow the law or ignore it. If they ignore by drinking and driving they put others lives at risk. There is a strong parallel here with covid vaccines.
To expand further, there is already precedent for other cohorts to not be allowed to drive. People who speed, people who have medical issues etc. So to answer your query, if there is a cohort of people who are an increased risk of spreading covid then that risk would need to be assessed and if deemed serious enough then yes, some type of measure would need to be put in place to protect the masses who avail of vaccines and follow the regulations.

I have yet to hear a good reason for not taking the vaccine. It is currently a choice, but that choice should not afford you the same freedoms as the rest of us given what we have come through so far.

Ok. Lets go with that. If its about protecting the health service and reducing numbers in ICU lets include over 75's, any body with serious underlying health conditions or particularly vulnerable groups in this passport.
         Those groups are disproportionately represented in the numbers who get seriously ill and end up in ICU with covid.
        We will simultaneously be both protecting them and reducing the strain on the health services.
         
       

The over 75s have one of the highest rates of uptake of the vaccine. They, like any other age group, can spread covid and get sick from it.
The fact they are vaccinated and not putting others lives at risk means they fully deserve the freedoms afforded to all the vaccinated as they have fulfilled their moral duty to protect us all.
Age is irrelevant in this debate and no modern developed society would treat someone differently due to age.
Those who are responsible enough to try to protect others should not have any restrictions put on them due to their age.
Bit of a nonsense point in my opinion.

To go back to your driving analogy. Its like saying a blind man is ok to drive just cause he got his eyes tested.


grounded

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #71 on: November 24, 2021, 04:06:27 PM »
Much polio round your neck of the woods?

No thankfully, But place coming down with colds. Same every winter since i can remember. Why in blazes they never came up with a cure with all the scientists and research undertaken  i'll never know. 

J70

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #72 on: November 24, 2021, 04:42:21 PM »
Much polio round your neck of the woods?

No thankfully, But place coming down with colds. Same every winter since i can remember. Why in blazes they never came up with a cure with all the scientists and research undertaken  i'll never know.

There are far too many strains of the viruses which cause colds to allow them to make an effective vaccine.

Besides, the symptoms are mild and easily treatable.

Milltown Row2

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #73 on: November 24, 2021, 05:00:03 PM »
Anyone complaining about a cold needs a good slap
Anything I post is not the view of the County Board!! Nobody died in the making of this post ;-)

Gmac

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Re: Mandatory covid 19 vaccination
« Reply #74 on: November 24, 2021, 05:43:10 PM »
Given Austria's position I thought it would be interesting to see how board members would vote here. Thanks
             A mandatory vaccination scheme is where you are required by law to get vaccinated and face punishment if you do not do so. Those refusing vaccines are likely to face administrative fines which can be converted into a prison sentence if the fine is not recovered.
the totalitarians are winning I see , most would call themselves progressive liberals too .