All Ireland club football championships 2023/24

[DownFanatic]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

[thewobbler]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

Simple raw data suggests you're wrong here.

Over the past 20 years:

SFC has had winners from 9 counties, and a further 4 counties represented in the final.

IFC has had winners from 9 counties, and a further 5 counties represented in the final.

JFC had winners from 8 counties, and a further 5 counties represented in the final.

It's basically a dead heat.

So whatever theory you have about streamlines, authenticity and balance, it surely must be as valid for the SFC as the other pair.

[JoG2]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

100%. Tg4 had a graphic up yesterday showing the Listowel and Arva's games to dates...some amount of hammerings, especially in Munster / Ulster. A complete waste of time unless you're a good Div 1 team or from Kerry

[shawshank]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

100%. Tg4 had a graphic up yesterday showing the Listowel and Arva's games to dates...some amount of hammerings, especially in Munster / Ulster. A complete waste of time unless you're a good Div 1 team or from Kerry

Jez wobbler, take a look at how many clubs from Kerry have made the junior and intermediate finals never mind winning it, thats because of how their championship is structured. 8 senior teams in their senior championship, making the knock on effect of pushing strong teams down to intermediate and junior levels, meanwhile most counties have 16 senior teams making their lower grades weaker. Feck its not hard to figure out man.

[thewobbler]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

100%. Tg4 had a graphic up yesterday showing the Listowel and Arva's games to dates...some amount of hammerings, especially in Munster / Ulster. A complete waste of time unless you're a good Div 1 team or from Kerry

Jez wobbler, take a look at how many clubs from Kerry have made the junior and intermediate finals never mind winning it, thats because of how their championship is structured. 8 senior teams in their senior championship, making the knock on effect of pushing strong teams down to intermediate and junior levels, meanwhile most counties have 16 senior teams making their lower grades weaker. Feck its not hard to figure out man.

I'm not telling you how they do things in Kerry is fair.

What I'm suggesting is that the ultimate outcome is every bit as balanced as the SFC, based on a sample of the past 20 years.

[intheknowhow]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

100%. Tg4 had a graphic up yesterday showing the Listowel and Arva's games to dates...some amount of hammerings, especially in Munster / Ulster. A complete waste of time unless you're a good Div 1 team or from Kerry

Counties need to align the league and champ as does the inter county scene

[thewobbler]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

100%. Tg4 had a graphic up yesterday showing the Listowel and Arva's games to dates...some amount of hammerings, especially in Munster / Ulster. A complete waste of time unless you're a good Div 1 team or from Kerry

Jez wobbler, take a look at how many clubs from Kerry have made the junior and intermediate finals never mind winning it, thats because of how their championship is structured. 8 senior teams in their senior championship, making the knock on effect of pushing strong teams down to intermediate and junior levels, meanwhile most counties have 16 senior teams making their lower grades weaker. Feck its not hard to figure out man.

I'm not telling you how they do things in Kerry is fair.

What I'm suggesting is that the ultimate outcome is every bit as balanced as the SFC, based on a sample of the past 20 years.

Which to me means:

1. If it's really not fair, it seems are plenty of clubs capable of sandbagging their way into a lower championship across Ireland.

2. You cannot have an egalitarian championship. No matter what you do, you will end up with large urban clubs playing against small clubs with a couple of superstars. That's just football.

3. Both the club JFC and IFC have a superiors dispersal of prizes than county football.

[Armagh18]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

Simple raw data suggests you're wrong here.

Over the past 20 years:

SFC has had winners from 9 counties, and a further 4 counties represented in the final.

IFC has had winners from 9 counties, and a further 5 counties represented in the final.

JFC had winners from 8 counties, and a further 5 counties represented in the final.

It's basically a dead heat.

So whatever theory you have about streamlines, authenticity and balance, it surely must be as valid for the SFC as the other pair.

have a think about it and come back...

[thewobbler]

And also, I would think most of the people griping about Kerry and the JFC have got things the wrong way around.

I'd suspect that 90% of county SFCs have a deep lining of deadweight teams that have no more chance of winning their county SFC, than they do of winning this year's Super Bowl.

Certainly that's the case in those I'm most familiar with: Down and Armagh.

In such cases, the clubs in question are at senior level by accident rather than design. They should really be playing IFC.

12 teams max per county in their IFC and SFC I suggest.

[thewobbler]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

Simple raw data suggests you're wrong here.

Over the past 20 years:

SFC has had winners from 9 counties, and a further 4 counties represented in the final.

IFC has had winners from 9 counties, and a further 5 counties represented in the final.

JFC had winners from 8 counties, and a further 5 counties represented in the final.

It's basically a dead heat.

So whatever theory you have about streamlines, authenticity and balance, it surely must be as valid for the SFC as the other pair.

have a think about it and come back...

I do not have the foggiest what you're getting at.

[Armagh18]

Just look at how many clubs are in Cork vs how many there are in Fermanagh. It's never going to be fair barring the senior. Just get on with it and enjoy it for what it is.

I doubt anyone whos ever won a junior or intermediate provincial or all ireland gives a flying f**k about the grading.

[Look-Up!]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

100%. Tg4 had a graphic up yesterday showing the Listowel and Arva's games to dates...some amount of hammerings, especially in Munster / Ulster. A complete waste of time unless you're a good Div 1 team or from Kerry

Counties need to align the league and champ as does the inter county scene

Why do they need to align league and championship? They're separate competitions. County players are not available for league so why are people so fixated about weighting the championship on league positions? I've literally never talked to anyone with a problem on how the league and championships are run. If championship relegation was forced on my club because some other club with no county players performed better in the league I'd be absolutely livid.

Anomalies are always going to happen and could be much worse if league positions were given preference. For example, Gowna are the top club in Cavan, a half parish with a small young squad and a couple of lads in their 40s. Should have beaten Donegal champions in Ulster. I would say they have at least 8 players there that would be on the Cavan panel if they commit. Without those lads they'd struggle in league. It would be moronic to put those lads off playing for county or god forbid, have that club playing intermediate because they had a heap of lads away for league.

I understand posters here from other counties are not familiar with Cavan club scene, but if anyone from Cavan described Arva as a good Division 1 team, they'd be calling the men in white coats.

 

[Armagh18]

I've made the assertion previously, but really, what is the point of the All Ireland Intermediate and Junior competitions? They both just operate on skewed levels across counties and provinces. It's near impossible to streamline them in terms of club eligibility. The senior competition is authentic and balanced for obvious reasons but the other two just aren't fit for purpose.

100%. Tg4 had a graphic up yesterday showing the Listowel and Arva's games to dates...some amount of hammerings, especially in Munster / Ulster. A complete waste of time unless you're a good Div 1 team or from Kerry

Counties need to align the league and champ as does the inter county scene

Why do they need to align league and championship? They're separate competitions. County players are not available for league so why are people so fixated about weighting the championship on league positions? I've literally never talked to anyone with a problem on how the league and championships are run. If championship relegation was forced on my club because some other club with no county players performed better in the league I'd be absolutely livid.

Anomalies are always going to happen and could be much worse if league positions were given preference. For example, Gowna are the top club in Cavan, a half parish with a small young squad and a couple of lads in their 40s. Should have beaten Donegal champions in Ulster. I would say they have at least 8 players there that would be on the Cavan panel if they commit. Without those lads they'd struggle in league. It would be moronic to put those lads off playing for county or god forbid, have that club playing intermediate because they had a heap of lads away for league.

I understand posters here from other counties are not familiar with Cavan club scene, but if anyone from Cavan described Arva as a good Division 1 team, they'd be calling the men in white coats.

 

I get where you're coming from, but answer me this. How can a team be in the top tier for the league,   (played mostly without their county men) then come championship time they get their county men back and suddenly they are a third tier team?

Ok in Arvas case they are in the lower end of the division 1 league but plenty of other clubs have been high ranked D1 teams in their county but played at lower championship level.

[Ciarrai_thuaidh]

And also, I would think most of the people griping about Kerry and the JFC have got things the wrong way around.

I'd suspect that 90% of county SFCs have a deep lining of deadweight teams that have no more chance of winning their county SFC, than they do of winning this year's Super Bowl.

Certainly that's the case in those I'm most familiar with: Down and Armagh.

In such cases, the clubs in question are at senior level by accident rather than design. They should really be playing IFC.

12 teams max per county in their IFC and SFC I suggest.

Your logic has no place around here..

Seriously though, good points. There's no way somebody can tell me there's 16 teams in any county capable of winning SFC.
So barring a county like Cork with enormous numbers of players and clubs it's hard to make an argument for more than 12 teams in SFC.

Also just to reiterate that virtually everybody in Kerry wants to adjust numbers to have 10-12 clubs in SFC. There's 16 in IFC which I don't agree with but anyway. Croke park are the ones blocking the realignment as they are just ignoring the fact that we aren't getting rid of divisional teams.

[Itchy]

AI Finalists in Junior and Intermediate

    Junior    Intermediate
Cavan    3    0
Mayo    5    4
Meath    2    2
Cork    3    3
Kerry    15    9
Tyrone    6    5
Galway    3    5
UK    2    0
Kildare    1    0
Ros    1    2
W'meath    1    0
Sligo    1    0
Wexford    1    0
Armagh    0    1
Derry    0    2
Mon    0    3
Antrim    0    1
Ferm    0    1
Dublin    0    1
Donegal    0    1

Anyone not listed has never appeared in an AI final in either grade. The numbers speak for themselves on where the issue is.