Alliance showing their true colours now

[T Fearon]

Surely the objection is not specifically to the teaching of RE, but the fact that there are "Catholic only" schools, which are preventing kids integrating from an early age, the inference being clearly that this is fuelling sectarianism (when the reality is that its doing nothing of the sort). This fallacy of contributing sectarianism needs to be challenged, efficiency savings etc could be argued more rationally.

Old fogies like me, remember the Chilver Report in 1980 which proposed the merger of Stranmillis and Trench House Teacher Training colleges in Belfast, which was vigorously and successfully opposed by the Catholic middle classes. One wonders if the same vehement opposition could be rallied against integrated education at all levels these days.

[AQMP]

Surely its kids education that's important, choosing a school should ultimately be decided on what is the best school (locally) that will provide the best education for your child, teaching them religion happens at home and at whatever church you go to, or in most cases don't go to church.

Teaching religion currently happens in schools in the Catholic sector and if you were going to get rid of the Catholic educational sector, you'd have to get churches to bring in Sunday School like their protestant counterparts.  Religion should be instilled at home, yes, but not everyone's parents are teachers who would have an RE curriculum to hand and the ability to teach it right.

Indeed, my octogenarian mother still believes Protestants should be ritually disemboweled for being heretics of the most foul kind.  I'm sure that hasn't been Church teaching since about 1988.

[Olaf]

Surely the objection is not specifically to the teaching of RE, but the fact that there are "Catholic only" schools, which are preventing kids integrating from an early age, the inference being clearly that this is fuelling sectarianism (when the reality is that its doing nothing of the sort). This fallacy of contributing sectarianism needs to be challenged, efficiency savings etc could be argued more rationally.

Old fogies like me, remember the Chilver Report in 1980 which proposed the merger of Stranmillis and Trench House Teacher Training colleges in Belfast, which was vigorously and successfully opposed by the Catholic middle classes. One wonders if the same vehement opposition could be rallied against integrated education at all levels these days.

It is more than an inference and it  certainly fuels a feeling of  division/difference  amongst kids.

[T Fearon]

It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?

Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.

[fitzroyalty]

Integrated schooling is a really nice concept but it would never work. For a start it would never be allowed to happen. I went to school in Newry, I'd like to see them explain how this would work for the four Catholic grammar schools there.

Would you agree that religion should be taught at home?

I would. It should also be taught at schools that promote a Catholic ethos - otherwise they wouldn't be doing their job. The fact that there are so many and the fact that they generally tend to outperform their 'Protestant' state counterparts forms IMO part of the reason Unionists are so keen for integrated schooling.

Societal problems can't be solved solely by changing the schooling system (though it might help to a certain degree). Have to agree with T Fearon. Go along to to your nearest bonfire during the next school summer holidays and see what's on offer there. People bring their kids to these things. See what they are brought up with. I don't know what integrated schooling is going to do to eradicate a mindset that is firmly ingrained with sectarianism.

[michaelg]

It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?

Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.

The Orange Order has no direct influence on education in state schools.  As for your comment about 'both sides interacting (reasonably well) at third level education', this is too little, too late and ignores the fact that this does little to bring about more interaction and integration between working class protestants and catholics.
As for your comment about integrated education being a red herring and being about oneupmanship etc, what a load of absolute nonsense.  Getting more young people educated together from primary school age can only be a positive move.  This is particularly the case if they are living in paramilitary controlled areas.  Finally, presumably catholic maintained schools will still be there as an option, if this is the parents' preference.

[Orior]

Many Catholic schools have crucifixes, images of Our Lady, grottoes etc. I much prefer my kids being brought up in these environments and being taught gaelic football and Irish and Latin etc (because I'm a bigot you say). The alternatives are:
- a school plastered with NI Flags or Union Jacks and being taught only soccer
- a completely anaemic school where culture is frowned upon

Are the anti-clergy brigade on this board all in favour of shutting down Catholic schools?

[armaghniac]

Can anyone identify a single state school in the 6 counties where Gaelic games are played?

[Eamonnca1]

Integrated education is peddled as the panacea to end sectarianism. Can't see it,when you have the Orange Order ( whose raison d'être is promoting sectarianism) continuing to exert substantial influence,and shamefully indulged not least by the Dublin government.

That old straw man again?  What would segregationists  do without the word "panacea"? Seems to be their favourite cliché. They remind me of the gun nuts in the US saying "gun control measures are not going to completely eliminate all gun crime, therefore we should not have gun control measures."

[Eamonnca1]

Integrated schooling is a really nice concept but it would never work. For a start it would never be allowed to happen. I went to school in Newry, I'd like to see them explain how this would work for the four Catholic grammar schools there.

The age old circular argument. "It will never happen because it will never happen."

[Myles Na G.]

Can anyone identify a single state school in the 6 counties where Gaelic games are played?

No. That's one of the few arguments in their favour.

[muppet]

Integrated education is peddled as the panacea to end sectarianism. Can't see it,when you have the Orange Order ( whose raison d'être is promoting sectarianism) continuing to exert substantial influence,and shamefully indulged not least by the Dublin government.

That old straw man again?  What would segregationists  do without the word "panacea"? Seems to be their favourite cliché. They remind me of the gun nuts in the US saying "gun control measures are not going to completely eliminate all gun crime, therefore we should not have gun control measures."

Tell me this Eamonn, if tribe A goes to tribe A schools and tribe B goes to tribe B schools, would an argument for a school C, for both tribes, not have some merit in a sectarian climate?

(I accept school C would have to be agreeable to both sides)

[michaelg]

Can anyone identify a single state school in the 6 counties where Gaelic games are played?

What's that got to do with integrated education?  Presumably Gaelic games are an option at most if not all integrated schools and that this will continue to be the case if the sector grows.

[Eamonnca1]

Surely the objection is not specifically to the teaching of RE, but the fact that there are "Catholic only" schools, which are preventing kids integrating from an early age, the inference being clearly that this is fuelling sectarianism (when the reality is that its doing nothing of the sort). This fallacy of contributing sectarianism needs to be challenged, efficiency savings etc could be argued more rationally.

Old fogies like me, remember the Chilver Report in 1980 which proposed the merger of Stranmillis and Trench House Teacher Training colleges in Belfast, which was vigorously and successfully opposed by the Catholic middle classes. One wonders if the same vehement opposition could be rallied against integrated education at all levels these days.

Is this satire? Are you for real?  Sorry but sometimes in Northern Ireland politics it's a bit hard to tell if people actually are stuck in a time-warp or if they're just taking the piss.

I grew up in a mixed area, and still I hardly ever spoke to the protestant ones that got the same bus as us.  Why?  Because we had nothing to talk about - until it came to exam time.  Since we were all doing the same exams suddenly we had a bit of common ground and something to talk about.

If we had gone to the same schools we'd have gotten to know each other better.  There was no forum in which we ever met on a social level. There was no sports club in the area that we would both have been members of, we certainly wouldn't have met at Sunday service, there was no youth club for both crowds, no pubs that both could have mingled in (not that we were old enough for that), absolutely nowhere that we could have met on a social level. The only thing government has a chance of influencing is the number 1 place where absolutely all children mingle, namely school.

The fact is, catholic education DOES segregate children by religion. And the fact that this enterprise is funded by the state is an absolute disgrace.  If schools are going to get taxpayer funding, they should be secular. If churches want to ram their superstitious propaganda down the throats of impressionable children then let them fund it themselves, but there's no way the taxpayer should be forced to foot the bill for it. The problem in Northern Ireland is that the catholic education system has been funded by the taxpayer for so long that it has come to be seen as an entitlement, and this sense of entitlement has been ingrained for generations. Very hard to shift people's mindsets when they get addicted to having their snouts in the public trough for long enough.

[Eamonnca1]

It might give rise to a "feeling", but what is the point in having integrated education, when the Orange Order indoctrinates kids from an early age? Has the status quo in education prevented both sides from interacting (reasonably well) at third level education, in the work place, and residentially (the middle classes)?

Integrated education is a red herring thrown in by unionist parties as a game of oneupmanship against "the other side". The real contributory factors towards community division and sectarianism, eg the Orange Order, paramilitary control of ghettoes on both sides etc, is neither addressed nor challenged.

Here is the news. By the time you've reached your late teens and you finally start going to educational institutions where you meet people of the other side, it's too late. Your formative years are over. Your views are already more or less set in stone.  And in any case not everyone goes on to further and higher education. If a fenian leaves school at 16 then there's every chance that his first encounter with a prod will be when he starts work, but it's just as possible he'll go through his entire life without ever meeting one.

Blaming the OO for all of society's divisions is a bit of a stretch.

Denial is not just a river in Egypt you know.