A United Ireland. Opening up the discussion.

[Angelo]

I would also say that Provisional campaign had a lot more justification than the IRA's campaign during the WOI.

Of course people down south who never had to experience British state brutality wouldn't have the first clue what they are talking about.

[sid waddell]

Anybody who thinks the War of Independence and the PIRA campaign are morally equivalent is an idiot

Ok Sid, a number of British soldiers are ambushed by the IRA in their fight against British rule. They unmercifully emptied their magazines into these young men, brutally executed by the side of the road in cold blood.

I'm not telling you what county it happened in or what year.

Morally justified or not?

You're resorting to crude reductionism in an attempt to justify a 28 campaign of futile murder

Horrible things happen in all conflicts - but that's not how we judge them in the round

A plausible, arguable moral case can be made for the War of Independence because it was short, sharp, had a clear strategy was and successful - it got most of what the people waging that war wanted

The PIRA never had any hope of getting anything they wanted - and they didn't

They just kept on murdering for 28 years, murdering in a vacuum, like ISIS

And they sacrificed their own for no reason

The deaths of the hunger strikers, for instance, were totally futile

Now, what's the difference between Omagh and Enniskillen or Warrington?

The answer is nothing

To my knowledge, nobody here supports the Real IRA or justifies what they did at Omagh

Yet they justify the PIRA's 28 year campaign of murder

That's remarkable cognitive dissonance

Incidentally, Bernadette Sands McKevitt, the wife of Michael McKevitt, the Omagh bomber, was the sister of Bobby Sands

So if anybody had a handle on the true mindset of Bobby Sands and what he truly believed, it was her

The SF/PIRA movement as a whole moved away from the ideology of Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers when they decided to surrender - I suppose you could say they did the dirt on Sands and people like Brendan Hughes

I'm glad they did that - because peace followed from it - but it's pretty unarguable that the likes of McKevitt and his wife were the true believers and stayed true to the ideology

SF and the vast majority of the PIRA who abided by the ceasefire abandoned their ideology

So what was it all for?

Nothing

[Snapchap]

You're resorting to crude reductionism

Says the man who accused me of being "into dead children" and "supporting blowing up children" because I believe the IRA campaign was justified.


Away and crawl into a hole you dope.

[Armagh18]

I would also say that Provisional campaign had a lot more justification than the IRA's campaign during the WOI.

Of course people down south who never had to experience British state brutality wouldn't have the first clue what they are talking about.

I wouldn't say it had any more, but it was the same fight and certainly equally justified.

[Angelo]

I would also say that Provisional campaign had a lot more justification than the IRA's campaign during the WOI.

Of course people down south who never had to experience British state brutality wouldn't have the first clue what they are talking about.

I wouldn't say it had any more, but it was the same fight and certainly equally justified.

In the context of what was happening, I'd say it had more. Nationalists had been abandoned in a sectarian state with a unionist government and loyalist pogrom who had shown total disregard for their rights. Burned out of their homes, beaten off the streets and murdered in broad daylight and nobody willing to step in. It was totally inevitable and the FFG have blood on their hands regarding that and never once have they shown contrition or acknowledgement to the nationalists of the north.

[general_lee]

Anybody who thinks the War of Independence and the PIRA campaign are morally equivalent is an idiot

Ok Sid, a number of British soldiers are ambushed by the IRA in their fight against British rule. They unmercifully emptied their magazines into these young men, brutally executed by the side of the road in cold blood.

I'm not telling you what county it happened in or what year.

Morally justified or not?

You're resorting to crude reductionism in an attempt to justify a 28 campaign of futile murder

Horrible things happen in all conflicts - but that's not how we judge them in the round

A plausible, arguable moral case can be made for the War of Independence because it was short, sharp, had a clear strategy was and successful - it got most of what the people waging that war wanted

The PIRA never had any hope of getting anything they wanted - and they didn't

They just kept on murdering for 28 years, murdering in a vacuum, like ISIS

And they sacrificed their own for no reason

The deaths of the hunger strikers, for instance, were totally futile

Now, what's the difference between Omagh and Enniskillen or Warrington?

The answer is nothing

To my knowledge, nobody here supports the Real IRA or justifies what they did at Omagh

Yet they justify the PIRA's 28 year campaign of murder

That's remarkable cognitive dissonance

Incidentally, Bernadette Sands McKevitt, the wife of Michael McKevitt, the Omagh bomber, was the sister of Bobby Sands

So if anybody had a handle on the true mindset of Bobby Sands and what he truly believed, it was her

The SF/PIRA movement as a whole moved away from the ideology of Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers when they decided to surrender - I suppose you could say they did the dirt on Sands and people like Brendan Hughes

I'm glad they did that - because peace followed from it - but it's pretty unarguable that the likes of McKevitt and his wife were the true believers and stayed true to the ideology

SF and the vast majority of the PIRA who abided by the ceasefire abandoned their ideology

So what was it all for?

Nothing

I note you are unable to answer my simple question.

I'm reluctant to give you a history lesson or try and use specific  events to further my argument but generally speaking, the Provos weren't the problem, they were a symptom of the problem. I absolutely resent your assertion that Irish men and women had no moral justification in taking up the gun while they were butchered by Loyalists, RUC and the army.

You're anti-Republican rhetoric is all well and good but it doesn't disguise what people had to live through while the 26 county government sat on their hands and did nothing.

The circumstances from 1969 onwards allowed the Provos to blossom, they went from what was originally an organisation that emerged to defend people from Loyalist AND RUC attacks (imagine the f**king police helping loyalists burn down your home) to one that proactively used guerilla warfare against a much larger, better equipped  and technologically-advanced enemy.

There was actually an excellent article by Declan Bogue in the Irish Examiner, he interviewed a few of the Antrim players from their successful 1969 All Ireland winning U21 side. I'd love you to look these fellow Gaels in the eye and tell them they were suffering from cognitive dissonance.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40244966.html

[sid waddell]

You're resorting to crude reductionism

Says the man who accused me of being "into dead children" and "supporting blowing up children" because I believe the IRA campaign was justified.


Away and crawl into a hole you dope.

Well you've just said again you believe the PIRA campaign was justified

It was a 28 year campaign of nihilism and murder, including the murder of children

If somebody said they supported ISIS but were against the beheadings and the bombs and the destruction they'd be laughed at

The personal abuse of me is just showing up your lack of argument

[sid waddell]

Anybody who thinks the War of Independence and the PIRA campaign are morally equivalent is an idiot

Ok Sid, a number of British soldiers are ambushed by the IRA in their fight against British rule. They unmercifully emptied their magazines into these young men, brutally executed by the side of the road in cold blood.

I'm not telling you what county it happened in or what year.

Morally justified or not?

You're resorting to crude reductionism in an attempt to justify a 28 campaign of futile murder

Horrible things happen in all conflicts - but that's not how we judge them in the round

A plausible, arguable moral case can be made for the War of Independence because it was short, sharp, had a clear strategy was and successful - it got most of what the people waging that war wanted

The PIRA never had any hope of getting anything they wanted - and they didn't

They just kept on murdering for 28 years, murdering in a vacuum, like ISIS

And they sacrificed their own for no reason

The deaths of the hunger strikers, for instance, were totally futile

Now, what's the difference between Omagh and Enniskillen or Warrington?

The answer is nothing

To my knowledge, nobody here supports the Real IRA or justifies what they did at Omagh

Yet they justify the PIRA's 28 year campaign of murder

That's remarkable cognitive dissonance

Incidentally, Bernadette Sands McKevitt, the wife of Michael McKevitt, the Omagh bomber, was the sister of Bobby Sands

So if anybody had a handle on the true mindset of Bobby Sands and what he truly believed, it was her

The SF/PIRA movement as a whole moved away from the ideology of Bobby Sands and the hunger strikers when they decided to surrender - I suppose you could say they did the dirt on Sands and people like Brendan Hughes

I'm glad they did that - because peace followed from it - but it's pretty unarguable that the likes of McKevitt and his wife were the true believers and stayed true to the ideology

SF and the vast majority of the PIRA who abided by the ceasefire abandoned their ideology

So what was it all for?

Nothing

I note you are unable to answer my simple question.

I'm reluctant to give you a history lesson or try and use specific  events to further my argument but generally speaking, the Provos weren't the problem, they were a symptom of the problem. I absolutely resent your assertion that Irish men and women had no moral justification in taking up the gun while they were butchered by Loyalists, RUC and the army.

You're anti-Republican rhetoric is all well and good but it doesn't disguise what people had to live through while the 26 county government sat on their hands and did nothing.

The circumstances from 1969 onwards allowed the Provos to blossom, they went from what was originally an organisation that emerged to defend people from Loyalist AND RUC attacks (imagine the f**king police helping loyalists burn down your home) to one that proactively used guerilla warfare against a much larger, better equipped  and technologically-advanced enemy.

There was actually an excellent article by Declan Bogue in the Irish Examiner, he interviewed a few of the Antrim players from their successful 1969 All Ireland winning U21 side. I'd love you to look these fellow Gaels in the eye and tell them they were suffering from cognitive dissonance.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/arid-40244966.html

Your question isn't a good faith one

I don't need a history lesson, thanks

The PIRA weren't the problem before they existed, once they existed they became a major part of the problem, probably the biggest part

I absolutely would tell anybody who supported the 28 year campaign of nihilism and murder that they were suffering from cognitive dissonance to their face

I'd tell them a bit more too

I'm not cowed by PIRA supporters trying to lecture me that blowing the heads off innocent children was necessary or a glorious blow for Ireland

[charlieTully]

Anybody who thinks the War of Independence and the PIRA campaign are morally equivalent is an idiot

Sure that would be to say that all armed campaigns are morally equivalent, because horrible things happen in all armed campaigns

It would be to say that the Nazi invasions of Poland and Russia were morally equivalent to the Allied campaign of invasion post D-Day

The pertinent comparison is between the dissos and the PIRA

No difference between them whatsoever - both futile campaigns of murder with no hope whatsoever of achieving their political aim - a united Ireland

And none of the Shinners here have ever admitted this

There's no difference between Omagh and what the PIRA did

None at all

Sid. I respect you but I disagree wholeheartedly here. The only difference was semtex wasn't available back then. These men who were prepared to give up everything and be they old new or any letter IRA did not do it for fun. To write of these people as psychopathic killers devoid of emotion needs questioned. We have and had an absolute right to meet the violence and inequality imppossesd upon us with violence. Its s stsndsrd operating procedure for any nation. The British state literally stole our nation and continue to hold right over a part of it. Anyone who thinks this is acceptable because a certain amount of time has passed can fkc right off. If I raped your relative no amount of time would ever make it acceptable. Ireland unfree will never be at peace,  the words of wiser men than me. Excuse typos.. done on a phone

[sid waddell]

Anybody who thinks the War of Independence and the PIRA campaign are morally equivalent is an idiot

Sure that would be to say that all armed campaigns are morally equivalent, because horrible things happen in all armed campaigns

It would be to say that the Nazi invasions of Poland and Russia were morally equivalent to the Allied campaign of invasion post D-Day

The pertinent comparison is between the dissos and the PIRA

No difference between them whatsoever - both futile campaigns of murder with no hope whatsoever of achieving their political aim - a united Ireland

And none of the Shinners here have ever admitted this

There's no difference between Omagh and what the PIRA did

None at all

Sid. I respect you but I disagree wholeheartedly here. The only difference was semtex wasn't available back then. These men who were prepared to give up everything and be they old new or any letter IRA did not do it for fun. To write of these people as psychopathic killers devoid of emotion needs questioned. We have and had an absolute right to meet the violence and inequality imppossesd upon us with violence. Its s stsndsrd operating procedure for any nation. The British state literally stole our nation and continue to hold right over a part of it. Anyone who thinks this is acceptable because a certain amount of time has passed can fkc right off. If I raped your relative no amount of time would ever make it acceptable. Ireland unfree will never be at peace,  the words of wiser men than me. Excuse typos.. done on a phone

I'm sure the old IRA would have used semtex had it been available to them

The difference is, they knew they could win and they did win, they didn't have any intention of a 28 year war

The PIRA never stood a chance of winning, they could never win, and they knew it

Therefore 28 years of bombing and murder cannot be justified

Land is land, and Ireland is not unique as regards territorial disputes

Since the beginning of time people have migrated and invaded, borders have changed

Part of what is now Russia used to be Germany, part of what is now Poland used to be Germany, part of what is now France used to be Germany, all of what is now Kosovo used to be Serbia, part of what is now Romania used to be Austria-Hungary, part of what is now Ukraine used to be Poland, all of what is now Ukraine used to be the USSR, or colloquially, Russia, and many Russians believe Ukraine should't exist

What is a country? What is a nation?

There is nothing inherent in nature that says an all-Ireland state should exist or is natural

States are artificial creations

[charlieTully]

Sid. We were shit on. From a great height. The first time I got spat on I was 8 years old. I was called a fenian **** every single day walking home from primary school and had to run home to avoid a kicking getting off the bus from high school more times than I care to remember. Coming home from football training on a Friday night was a minefield when our friendly neighbours were parading. I don't care about Germany or Poland. I care that a union flag was placed on my grandmothers house because my uncle happened to share the name of a sf Councillor. I care that my brother was beat to a pulp by loyalists one night walking home half cut. I care that my friends cousin and brothers mate was beaten to death at 16 years old and his body hidden in a f**king sheough. Google James Morgan county down. So yes I f**king supported the PIRA.

[sid waddell]

Sid. We were shit on. From a great hight. The first time I got spat on I was 8 years old. I was called a fenian **** every single day walking home from primary school and had to run home to avoid a kicking getting off the bus from high school more times than I care to remember. Coming home from football training on a Friday night was a minefield when our friendly neighbours were parading. I don't care about Germany or Poland. I care that a union flag was placed on my grandmothers house because my uncle happened to share the name of a sf Councillor. I care that my brother was beat to a pulp by loyalists one night walking home half cut. I care that my friends cousin and brothers mate was beaten to death at 16 years old and his body hidden in a f**king sheough. Google James Morgan county down. So yes I f**king supported the PIRA.

I appreciate that Catholics were shat on from a height

But there was an alternative to 28 years of the PIRA, it was disciplined political struggle, international agitation, mass civil disobedience, education and self-empowerment through community organisations

Catholics had righteousness and justice on their side

A 28 year campaign of violence did not make things better for any part of society, it never could, it made people outside the North tune out and want nothing to do with the concept of justice for Catholics, and it did not produce a united Ireland

It produced ethnic cleansing, siloing, entrenchment and incalculable heartache

[charlieTully]

I married a lass who was from the protestant tradition. We were walking round the town I grew up in one night. The local orange Lodge were putting up their arch, as they do each summer. One of them recognised her and asked what was she doing with a fenian. He then spat in her face.

[Snapchap]

No point trying to talk logic and reason to Sid. You can try to explain to him all day about why many ordinary people, living through extraordinary times, felt the IRA campaign was justified. I tried before to have that adult conversation with him and to explain why I felt it was justified. He ignored everything I said and accused me of supporting it because I'm "into dead children" and because I like to see "children blown up". In fact, his "into dead children" bit was his first engagement with me after I offered him my condolences and prayers on the loss of his father.

That's the mentality of who you're trying to engage with. A sick f**k who repeatedly envokes the concept of child suffering and death to attack others on a discussion board. He even recently randomly claimed that another poster accused him of "child rape" ffs. Do not waste your time or energy with that sort of individual.

[Angelo]

Sid doesn't believe what he's typing guys.


He was a vocal backer of the Provo campaign up until about four or five years back. He has now backtracked and engaged on revisionism on The Troubles because he has changed his mind on SF current policies.

I think it's important that people know Sid doesn't believe what he types.